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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils  (Read 174214 times)

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joel88s

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2012, 10:29:47 am »
0

Mint + Spoils would be another way to gain them, if you really wanted them.

I'm also guessing that simulators will like Pillage/Spoils + BMU a lot.

I'd say it needs to be in the supply (which it isn't) to be gainable with mint.

This is a good question. Certainly you can't gain a Diadem with Mint, but there's only one of those...

This came up when we were talking about Madman yesterday. If a card says to gain something, it means from the supply unless otherwise specified; and Mint just says "gain", so if it's not in the supply you can't mint it.

Too bad. Nothing like the smell of freshly minted spoils.
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lespeutere

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2012, 10:30:11 am »
+1

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.

Well, it's trash - discard - put on top. As it reads.
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mnavratil

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2012, 10:31:34 am »
+3

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.
I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I think this gets confusing because if you trash the rats you draw a card. Which card do you draw? Do you finish the lookout discard/top deck action and then immediately draw the card (this is my interpretation) or do you draw the card that is below the 3 lookout cards?
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DrFlux

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2012, 10:32:23 am »
0

Rats!

Well... very very interesting thing that Donald said this is his favorite card.

I cannot really think about this card in the new setting. Let me ask the "conventional" question: is this card any good with 9 other kingdom cards that are from hinterlands or before?

I think rats is VERY good with upgrade or apprentice. With either, the rats eat up the chaff, and the additional card eats the rats AND provides some good other benefits. Other trashing cards could work as well, but since rats give you cards when trashed, cantrip ones are better (or you could add a village to say... remake, but in that case I might just buy remake and not mess with rats).
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Malaprop

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2012, 10:33:37 am »
0

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.
I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I guess what I'm saying is is that if you have to trash first, because Lookout is "look at" and not "reveal," there is no accountability on what that second card was meaning that if you trashed the Rats and got a +1 card, there is nothing but honesty stopping the player from just picking the better of the next two cards to draw immediately.  Because of that inherent problem I feel like the trash, discard, and place on top must either be simulataneous or player's choice.
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RiemannZetaJones

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #80 on: August 09, 2012, 10:33:43 am »
+4

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.
I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I think this gets confusing because if you trash the rats you draw a card. Which card do you draw? Do you finish the lookout discard/top deck action and then immediately draw the card (this is my interpretation) or do you draw the card that is below the 3 lookout cards?

My guess is that the card-draw for Rats happens at the same speed as a reaction, that is it happens immediately before the Lookout has finished resolving. So the card drawn would be the one below the three cards being looked at.
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PSGarak

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2012, 10:35:38 am »
0

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?

So the question is, are "revealed" cards still in your deck, or do they live in a separate pocket dimension while being operated on? Personally I'm a fan of pocket dimensions, so I'm going to go with drawing a card other than the ones being Looked Out.
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #82 on: August 09, 2012, 10:36:04 am »
+1

Rats intrigues me, largely because I don't understand why you'd want it.  You only want it on boards with other trashing, right?  Or eventually you'll have tons of Curse-equivalents in your deck.  But if you have other trashing, why do you want Rats?

I think that you don't want Rats unless there there is a trash-for-benefit card. Or a Watchtower.
So Rats should be (or at least could be) good with (in no particular order):
Graverobber
Watchtower
Apprentice
Salvager
Develop
Trader
Upgrade
Remake
Remodel
Expand
Bishop
Forge
further cards along these lines in Dark Ages

When there is a curser *and* a looter, you might want to get Rats even in spite of the the abscence of one of these cards.
But I don't think you'll want them in other cases!
You most certainly don't want them for trashing your Coppers if you don't have any way to get rid of them again...

EDIT: Forgot Forge
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 10:49:35 am by Varsinor »
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AJD

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #83 on: August 09, 2012, 10:37:46 am »
0

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.
I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I think this gets confusing because if you trash the rats you draw a card. Which card do you draw? Do you finish the lookout discard/top deck action and then immediately draw the card (this is my interpretation) or do you draw the card that is below the 3 lookout cards?

My guess is that the card-draw for Rats happens at the same speed as a reaction, that is it happens immediately before the Lookout has finished resolving. So the card drawn would be the one below the three cards being looked at.

This is a confusing issue because "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck" doesn't state that they're not still "the top 3 cards in your deck" while they're being looked at. But to consider them as still being on top of your deck while you're resolving Lookout would be madness—presumably they're just in "Looking-At-Cards Land". A similar question came up with regard to Golem a while ago.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2012, 10:38:28 am »
0

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?

So the question is, are "revealed" cards still in your deck, or do they live in a separate pocket dimension while being operated on? Personally I'm a fan of pocket dimensions, so I'm going to go with drawing a card other than the ones being Looked Out.
This comes up every day. You, the player whose card it is, trashes the thing.
Quote from: swindler
Each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a card with the same cost that you choose.

See, the dude whose rats it is trashes it. Donald thought of everything.

AJD

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #85 on: August 09, 2012, 10:39:28 am »
+4

presumably they're just in "Looking-At-Cards Land"

(Lewis Carroll's little-known sequel, Alice in Looking-At-Cards Land)
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Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2012, 10:40:19 am »
+2

You would think Pillage would be a looter..  ;D
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joel88s

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2012, 10:43:32 am »
0

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.
I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I think this gets confusing because if you trash the rats you draw a card. Which card do you draw? Do you finish the lookout discard/top deck action and then immediately draw the card (this is my interpretation) or do you draw the card that is below the 3 lookout cards?

My guess is that the card-draw for Rats happens at the same speed as a reaction, that is it happens immediately before the Lookout has finished resolving. So the card drawn would be the one below the three cards being looked at.

This is a confusing issue because "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck" doesn't state that they're not still "the top 3 cards in your deck" while they're being looked at. But to consider them as still being on top of your deck while you're resolving Lookout would be madness—presumably they're just in "Looking-At-Cards Land". A similar question came up with regard to Golem a while ago.

The final instruction to put the third card on top of your deck would seem to imply that they are not on your deck while you're looking at them.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #88 on: August 09, 2012, 10:47:07 am »
0

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?
I don't think there's ever been a card that lets someone else trash one of your cards.
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AJD

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2012, 10:50:00 am »
0

My guess is that the card-draw for Rats happens at the same speed as a reaction, that is it happens immediately before the Lookout has finished resolving. So the card drawn would be the one below the three cards being looked at.

This is a confusing issue because "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck" doesn't state that they're not still "the top 3 cards in your deck" while they're being looked at. But to consider them as still being on top of your deck while you're resolving Lookout would be madness—presumably they're just in "Looking-At-Cards Land". A similar question came up with regard to Golem a while ago.

The final instruction to put the third card on top of your deck would seem to imply that they are not on your deck while you're looking at them.

True! But it's not like the rules tell you to put them anywhere else (while you're looking at them). Pearl Diver says "You may put it on top" without saying "If you don't put it on top, put it back on the bottom"—so "looking at" a card doesn't automatically change its location.

But I do totally agree with you; it would be madness to consider that the looked-at cards are still in some sense all still on your deck until you decide what to do with them. Cf <a href="http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/758960/golem-and-revealing-cards">this BGG thread about Golem</a>. And <a href="http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/555659/where-are-actions-revealed-by-golem">this one</a>.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 10:51:58 am by AJD »
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #90 on: August 09, 2012, 10:52:17 am »
0

Island/Gardens rush, hiding all your Gardens away on Islands, then just keep Ratting it up.  If you empty the whole pile, each Gardens will be...  2 VP each...  but it seems like a sensible rush.

Doesn't sound sensible to me without support. The Rats should interfere with your ability to buy $4 cards pretty quickly.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #91 on: August 09, 2012, 10:52:43 am »
+7

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.
I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I think this gets confusing because if you trash the rats you draw a card. Which card do you draw? Do you finish the lookout discard/top deck action and then immediately draw the card (this is my interpretation) or do you draw the card that is below the 3 lookout cards?

My guess is that the card-draw for Rats happens at the same speed as a reaction, that is it happens immediately before the Lookout has finished resolving. So the card drawn would be the one below the three cards being looked at.

This is a confusing issue because "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck" doesn't state that they're not still "the top 3 cards in your deck" while they're being looked at. But to consider them as still being on top of your deck while you're resolving Lookout would be madness—presumably they're just in "Looking-At-Cards Land". A similar question came up with regard to Golem a while ago.
Yes, the three cards for Lookout are in being-looked-at land, and trashing Rats draws you the top card of your deck, not one of those cards.
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #92 on: August 09, 2012, 10:53:51 am »
0

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?
I don't think there's ever been a card that lets someone else trash one of your cards.

Well, sure - Swindler (which you already cited) and Saboteur (and also Posession, but it doesn't usually matter there).
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mnavratil

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #93 on: August 09, 2012, 10:55:49 am »
0

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?
I don't think there's ever been a card that lets someone else trash one of your cards.

Well, sure - Swindler (which you already cited) and Saboteur (and also Posession, but it doesn't usually matter there).

I think he's being pedantic. Swindler and Saboteur have you trash a card because your opponent played them. They don't allow your opponent to trash a card.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #94 on: August 09, 2012, 10:58:14 am »
0

Island/Gardens rush, hiding all your Gardens away on Islands, then just keep Ratting it up.  If you empty the whole pile, each Gardens will be...  2 VP each...  but it seems like a sensible rush.

Doesn't sound sensible to me without support. The Rats should interfere with your ability to buy $4 cards pretty quickly.
And it doesn't sound like a RUSH to me at all. It will take you a zillion turns to get all those gardens and islands, and by a zillion, I mean at least 17, and more likely somewhere around 20, at least if you want to get the things islanded away. And you need at least one more turn to get a rats, and probably several more really, because you can't actually start getting rats until late, because they'll choke you to death. Though your gardens are going to be worth 3 there, so hey, that's something. But not near enough to beat, say, BMU+island, I would guess (even though that speeds you up).

Though, hey, it is sorta cool, if you get 2 rats and no cards in your deck (i.e. you've drawn them all), you CAN gain the whole pile at once: play a rats, draw nothing, get an action, gain a rats, (can't trash a rats, so at least you still have that); play a rats, draw the rats, get an action, gain a rats, can't trash rats, rinse and repeat.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #95 on: August 09, 2012, 10:58:49 am »
0

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?
I don't think there's ever been a card that lets someone else trash one of your cards.

Well, sure - Swindler (which you already cited) and Saboteur (and also Posession, but it doesn't usually matter there).

I think he's being pedantic. Swindler and Saboteur have you trash a card because your opponent played them. They don't allow your opponent to trash a card.
I wouldn't say that it's pedantic (anymore), since it actually makes a difference in what happens in gameplay scenarios.

Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #96 on: August 09, 2012, 11:03:38 am »
0

Mint does not mention the supply.  I'd say Mint those Spoils!

Actually, Mint does say that the gained copy must be from the supply (just as Smugglers and some other gainers by the way) - although only in the additional kingdom card descriptions.

Mine doesn't say it anywhere as far as I can see, though.

As for the general rule people have been mentioning many times here that gained cards must always come from the supply - fair enough of course, I suppose Donald X. has stated that somewhere. But I haven't read it from him and as far as I know it is not in the rulebooks accompanying the expansions. Therefore I would vote for including that rule in the Dark Ages rulebook so that it is not some obscure rules knowledge that you can only have when going through forum postings from Donald X.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:05:00 am by Varsinor »
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mnavratil

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #97 on: August 09, 2012, 11:06:41 am »
0

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?
I don't think there's ever been a card that lets someone else trash one of your cards.

Well, sure - Swindler (which you already cited) and Saboteur (and also Posession, but it doesn't usually matter there).

I think he's being pedantic. Swindler and Saboteur have you trash a card because your opponent played them. They don't allow your opponent to trash a card.
I wouldn't say that it's pedantic (anymore), since it actually makes a difference in what happens in gameplay scenarios.

Now who's being pedantic? (Sorry couldn't resist).
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Fangz

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #98 on: August 09, 2012, 11:08:36 am »
0

I feel like rats are going to be very situational, and dependent on there being a trash for benefit card. Rats + salvager, remake, apprentice, upgrade or remodel would rule. Rats with anything else would be almost as bad as a curse.
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Qvist

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #99 on: August 09, 2012, 11:09:04 am »
0

Rats
Cool theme, but it seems terrible at first glance. You have to gain a Rats if you trash a card and you can't trash Rats with Rats. So you definitely need another trasher if you want Rats. But with another trasher, why buy Rats in the first place?? I'm still not understanding this card, especially for the high cost of $4. Again there's a combo with Watchtower. You can trash a card with a Laboratory. This will be great.
$4 #43 out of 45

Pillage / Spoils
A one-shot attack for targetted discarding. And you get 2 one-sot Golds from that. That's of course the strongest dicarding attack, but it's only a one-shot. Very hard to evaluate.
I think the attack is weak in the beginning: Basically a one-shot Cutpurse, but it gains you two early Golds. Later in the game the attack gets stronger, but you maybe won't be able to see those Golds again. I think this a decent attack, but no power $5. Maybe a Pillage rush is possible where you pick up Pillages to gain Spoils and buy Provinces as fast as you can.
$5 #26 out of 51

Crosspost. I boosted Graverobber a little bit because of all those one-shots and trash-for-benefit abilities.

Haha, Watchtower will be a power card after this expansion will be released.
So far I have a hard time evaluating the new cards, especially one-shots like Pillage/Spoils and Hermit/Madman.
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