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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils  (Read 119469 times)

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Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #275 on: August 10, 2012, 10:15:18 am »
+2

Hmm...

Rats/Remake/IGG?
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #276 on: August 10, 2012, 10:33:41 am »
+2

One thing I really like about this set is that it introduces the mechanic of "I don't want to play this card yet, it could help me more later" that takes a lot of players a long time to get. It's a much more intuitive step to go from "I don't want to play Spoils yet, it could help me more on my next shuffle" to "I don't want to play Smithy yet, it will trigger a reshuffle".
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #277 on: August 10, 2012, 10:49:53 am »
0

One thing I really like about this set is that it introduces the mechanic of "I don't want to play this card yet, it could help me more later" that takes a lot of players a long time to get. It's a much more intuitive step to go from "I don't want to play Spoils yet, it could help me more on my next shuffle" to "I don't want to play Smithy yet, it will trigger a reshuffle".

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing the frequency of situations in which you don't want to play Spoils is vanishingly small, whereas the frequency of situations in which you don't want to play Smithy is small, but significant. I doubt Spoils is a good teacher of this mechanic.

EDIT: OK, I'll take that back. If you have, say $8 without playing Spoils and Colony is not available, then yeah, save the Spoils. Whoops.
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platykurtic

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #278 on: August 10, 2012, 11:06:17 am »
0

Rats/Venture actually sounds really neat. Play rats on your coppers, balancing it so that you have some decent money and a bunch of ventures. Then your ventures are always hitting silver/gold or other ventures and you don't need too many in your hand to reach province level. Definitely a balance though - with 8 unplayable rats, estates, and an increasing number of provinces, what's the right ratio of ventures/treasure?
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zahlman

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #279 on: August 10, 2012, 11:33:50 am »
0

I really can't approve of any strategy that is based on turning your starting cards into Rats and then not having a way to trash them for benefit later. If you don't get a benefit beyond the +1 Card of the Rats, then you might as well have used the other trasher on your starting cards directly. If you don't trash them at all, well, you've very quickly... turned them all into Confusions, in effect. Compared to the starting cards, with very few special cases, that's worse for your economy and your immediate point total (if you used them on the Estates).

The Venture idea is actually interesting, if you can get 8 Ventures and not bother with other treasure (except maybe using Silver to help get Venture more often). And yeah, you'd keep the starting Estates this way. Then you get a Province whenever you draw a Venture, and even with basically 10 + # provinces dead cards in your deck, that should be practically guaranteed. It doesn't seem terribly fast, though, and I don't see great tricks for enabling it, either.
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Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #280 on: August 10, 2012, 12:59:29 pm »
0

Rats' synergizer:

Hivemind
$6 Victory
Worth 1VP per 2 copies of card that you have most in your deck.

(or, "At the end of the game, name a card. Worth 1VP per 2 copies of the card in your deck").

This was in game, at one point, IIRC.
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PigFiend

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #281 on: August 10, 2012, 05:36:24 pm »
+1

I ran a handful of tests pre-Shelter reveal. Each was a solitaire mini-game of small kingdoms and to a 12 turn limit in order to get a microcosm view of some strategies. Part of the algorithm was greening duchies in turns 11 and 12 (when falling short of Province).

I tried five games of a Rats/Hermit opener, with the intent to pick up Conspirators and Sages, the latter largely via Hermit. The first game was ultra smooth, Hermit keeping the Rat population to 1. The trash pile was full of Rats, Coppers, and Estates. It achieved 3 Provinces and looked like it would keep grabbing one a turn.
The following results were mixed. Inside the small sampling, there were two 2 Copper turn 3s. All in all, it was not so great, but the inclusion of Sage was probably a mistake. I did it to add more DA flavour, but it's really cost for cost as good a sifter as Hunting Party or Golem, so trashing was made pretty irrelevant. The initiative to run a Rats/Hermit test was really the notion that your deck size would seldom increase; each two turns you'd have only 1 card left in your deck. (Of course, Sage makes shuffle control difficult, so another test might be in order with a different strategy).

For a control, I played a game starting Sage/Conspirator with no Rats. It collected 3 Provinces and a Duchy (and had all 3 Estates) though the game might have been anomalous, doing it more with Golds than powered Conspirators. I hit $6 turn 3 and often afterward.

Next was a Conspirator/Hermit combo... no Rats, Hermit to grab Sages. It hit 3 Provinces by the end, and it felt like it'd be consistent.

I tried a couple games with Forge and Laboratory available, starting Rats/Silver. The first game was stagnant, getting $4 in turns 3 and 4, Rats coming up in the 5th turn. I gave it a redo, added a Conspirator to the mix, and it smoked! A turn 6 purchase of Forge powered it to 4 Provinces by the end of turn 12 though not much else in deck besides a couple Rats, a Copper, and a Silver (and enough $ on the 12th turn to buy another Silver.) I think this was darned lucky, but it was interesting to see.

Lastly, I varied it up, going Remodel/Village with Rats to trim Coppers. The goal here was to instead see how many Grand Markets could be gained by turn 12. The first attempt was a disaster, Remodel coming turn 5. I still managed to get 3 GMs. The second was much more efficient, getting 4 GMs.

EDIT: Emboldened openers
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zahlman

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #282 on: August 10, 2012, 06:26:12 pm »
0

Rats' synergizer:

Hivemind
$6 Victory
Worth 1VP per 2 copies of card that you have most in your deck.

(or, "At the end of the game, name a card. Worth 1VP per 2 copies of the card in your deck").

This was in game, at one point, IIRC.

That's fine. You can always make a fan card.

You know, emulate it.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #283 on: August 12, 2012, 10:45:39 pm »
0

One of best parts of Dominion to me is the feel of your deck as the game progresses. Feeling it get heavy and bloated when you play a gardens game. Picking up the thin, light, crisp deck that has been well trimmed. That why I like things like things like sifters and diggers. I still remember back playing the original expansion-less Dominion, and the joy of playing an Adventurer and flipping over card over card digging for those precious treasures. How you physically manipulate and interact your deck corresponds to what kind of deck you're trying to build.

So, so true.  I've often thought that the therapeutic effect of manipulating cards in the way Dominion requires is a large part of what makes it addicting.  The strategic component is larger (especially recently rather than with Base only), or iso wouldn't have been a success.  But it's a large part just the same, and I think that inherent joy gets lost when we focus too much on power.  Good call on Adventurer.  Golem is similarly a joy for me.

Obviously the strategic part of the game is enormous or this site wouldn't be so popular :D And I think the only reason that i ever get any work done is that Iso just isn't as satisfying as playing dominion in person.

Golem is such a joy, digging away industriously to find my actions. And I imagine i'm gonna like Sage too, finding me something nice in a ruins clogged deck. I think Graverobber has the potential to be really fun in this sense too. Sometimes the trash pile is huge and has goodies floating in it, now you get the joy of sifting through and taking something nice.

Lets never forget that Dominion is fun :)
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #284 on: August 12, 2012, 11:20:18 pm »
+4

Wait a minute....Rats is a remodel variant.

It's a cantrip that will remodel any (non-Rats) card into a Rats.

This seems simpler in my head than self propogating cantrip, trasher, gainer thingy.
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AJD

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #285 on: August 12, 2012, 11:32:40 pm »
+1

Wait a minute....Rats is a remodel variant.

It's a cantrip that will remodel any (non-Rats) card into a Rats.

This seems simpler in my head than self propogating cantrip, trasher, gainer thingy.

<a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3909.msg81811;topicseen#msg81811">Back here</a> I suggested that Rats is sort of a Transmute variant, and since Transmute is a Remodel variant, I agree with you. (I think roughly Rats:Transmute :: Upgrade:Remodel.)
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #286 on: August 13, 2012, 12:47:47 am »
+1

Wait a minute....Rats is a remodel variant.

It's a cantrip that will remodel any (non-Rats) card into a Rats.

This seems simpler in my head than self propogating cantrip, trasher, gainer thingy.

<a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3909.msg81811;topicseen#msg81811">Back here</a> I suggested that Rats is sort of a Transmute variant, and since Transmute is a Remodel variant, I agree with you. (I think roughly Rats:Transmute :: Upgrade:Remodel.)

That is a good point. I like the Upgrade:Remodel comparison, but i don't think its quite perfect. People love using Upgrade as a cantrip copper trasher, whereas all the other cards don't let you get away without gaining something.

If we just reorganise based on abilites rather than chronology I'd argue that Transmute is a Rats variant (semantics I know :P). It seems a more specialsed case self-gainer, whereas Rats is now the definitive self-gainer.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #287 on: August 13, 2012, 12:56:49 am »
0

That is a good point. I like the Upgrade:Remodel comparison, but i don't think its quite perfect. People love using Upgrade as a cantrip copper trasher, whereas all the other cards don't let you get away without gaining something.

If we just reorganise based on abilites rather than chronology I'd argue that Transmute is a Rats variant (semantics I know :P). It seems a more specialsed case self-gainer, whereas Rats is now the definitive self-gainer.

I prefer using Upgrade to turn Estates into Silver.
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AJD

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #288 on: August 13, 2012, 01:06:24 am »
0

Wait a minute....Rats is a remodel variant.

It's a cantrip that will remodel any (non-Rats) card into a Rats.

This seems simpler in my head than self propogating cantrip, trasher, gainer thingy.

<a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3909.msg81811;topicseen#msg81811">Back here</a> I suggested that Rats is sort of a Transmute variant, and since Transmute is a Remodel variant, I agree with you. (I think roughly Rats:Transmute :: Upgrade:Remodel.)

That is a good point. I like the Upgrade:Remodel comparison, but i don't think its quite perfect. People love using Upgrade as a cantrip copper trasher, whereas all the other cards don't let you get away without gaining something.

True true. It's certainly not quite perfect. What I was thinking was that in each case the terminal gives you a little more flexibility in what you gain ('costing up to' vs. 'costing exactly'; 'Transmute, Duchy, or Gold' vs. 'Rats only')

Quote
If we just reorganise based on abilites rather than chronology I'd argue that Transmute is a Rats variant (semantics I know :P). It seems a more specialsed case self-gainer, whereas Rats is now the definitive self-gainer.

Yeah, I agree with thatóRats is definitely the more basic implementation of the concept. (Kind of like how I described Mine as an "Expand variant" the other day.)
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #289 on: August 13, 2012, 01:38:04 am »
0

That is a good point. I like the Upgrade:Remodel comparison, but i don't think its quite perfect. People love using Upgrade as a cantrip copper trasher, whereas all the other cards don't let you get away without gaining something.

If we just reorganise based on abilites rather than chronology I'd argue that Transmute is a Rats variant (semantics I know :P). It seems a more specialsed case self-gainer, whereas Rats is now the definitive self-gainer.

I prefer using Upgrade to turn Estates into Silver.

My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

True true. It's certainly not quite perfect. What I was thinking was that in each case the terminal gives you a little more flexibility in what you gain ('costing up to' vs. 'costing exactly'; 'Transmute, Duchy, or Gold' vs. 'Rats only')

Its a good comparison. I was just being pedantic. It made me think about the big difference between upgrade and remodel and at the moment i'm sitting here working on a classifcation system for trashers/remodels/gainers and cards that fit into multiple catergories (like develop). I'll have to make a diagram and post it :P
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #290 on: August 13, 2012, 01:47:12 am »
+1

My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

Technically, Rats will let you end up with less cards once Rats are piled out.  Transmute is similar if the Gold/Duchy/Transmute pile is gone when you Transmute the respective piles.

It can even happen with Remodel, though it would be really rare.  In a Kingdom where there are no $1 cards and Estate is the only $2, remodel a Curse or Copper when Curse, Copper and Estate piles are all empty.  Can happen in bigger games where the rule is 4 piles to end, or it could happen in a smaller game on the very last turn.

Yay edge cases!
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #291 on: August 13, 2012, 07:02:13 am »
0

My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

Technically, Rats will let you end up with less cards once Rats are piled out.  Transmute is similar if the Gold/Duchy/Transmute pile is gone when you Transmute the respective piles.

It can even happen with Remodel, though it would be really rare.  In a Kingdom where there are no $1 cards and Estate is the only $2, remodel a Curse or Copper when Curse, Copper and Estate piles are all empty.  Can happen in bigger games where the rule is 4 piles to end, or it could happen in a smaller game on the very last turn.

Yay edge cases!

Haha, you're right. A fantastic edge case though. We can ignore that one by assuming that all real dominion players never play with 5 or 6 :P
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #292 on: August 13, 2012, 11:52:15 am »
0

My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

Technically, Rats will let you end up with less cards once Rats are piled out.  Transmute is similar if the Gold/Duchy/Transmute pile is gone when you Transmute the respective piles.

It can even happen with Remodel, though it would be really rare.  In a Kingdom where there are no $1 cards and Estate is the only $2, remodel a Curse or Copper when Curse, Copper and Estate piles are all empty.  Can happen in bigger games where the rule is 4 piles to end, or it could happen in a smaller game on the very last turn.

Yay edge cases!

Haha, you're right. A fantastic edge case though. We can ignore that one by assuming that all real dominion players never play with 5 or 6 :P

No, because it can still happen on the last turn in 2p!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #293 on: August 13, 2012, 12:28:24 pm »
+3

So I played a few games with some other cards proxying for the Dark Ages cards, and if there's one thing I've learned it's that Rats are really hard to manage. It's so, so tempting to play a Rats. "I want to draw my next card and I also have a card in my hand that I wouldn't mind trashing. Surely one more Rats in my deck can't hurt!" Oh yes, yes it can.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #294 on: August 13, 2012, 06:42:30 pm »
0

My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

Technically, Rats will let you end up with less cards once Rats are piled out.  Transmute is similar if the Gold/Duchy/Transmute pile is gone when you Transmute the respective piles.

It can even happen with Remodel, though it would be really rare.  In a Kingdom where there are no $1 cards and Estate is the only $2, remodel a Curse or Copper when Curse, Copper and Estate piles are all empty.  Can happen in bigger games where the rule is 4 piles to end, or it could happen in a smaller game on the very last turn.

Yay edge cases!

Haha, you're right. A fantastic edge case though. We can ignore that one by assuming that all real dominion players never play with 5 or 6 :P

No, because it can still happen on the last turn in 2p!

! Of course it can. Even more edge. I love dominion fans, can't sneak anything past them :)
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Aeek

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #295 on: August 16, 2012, 07:54:11 am »
0

Consider a set of trash-for-benefits cards and the only trasher is Rats.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #296 on: August 16, 2012, 08:48:31 am »
0

Consider a set of trash-for-benefits cards and the only trasher is Rats.

This sounds inherently impossible.
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jotheonah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #297 on: August 16, 2012, 09:44:48 am »
+1

Consider a set of trash-for-benefits cards and the only trasher is Rats.

Perhaps what was meant was "Consider a set of Dark Ages cards with on-trash abilities and the only trasher is rats"
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Aeek

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #298 on: August 16, 2012, 11:18:13 am »
0

Consider a set of trash-for-benefits cards and the only trasher is Rats.

Perhaps what was meant was "Consider a set of Dark Ages cards with on-trash abilities and the only trasher is rats"

Well spotted, that is indeed what I meant. Not sure if Cultists would make it better or worse.
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axlemn

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #299 on: August 16, 2012, 11:15:01 pm »
0

I think I was unclear when I said that megaturn decks are great places for a few rats.  If you play all your other cards, don't rely on money, and haven't bought VP yet, when you have 2 Rats in hand, you can immediately wipe out a pile. 

Sounds like such a play might help give double Tactician a bit more strength to try to 3-pile. 
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