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Author Topic: Is it really that bad?  (Read 26805 times)

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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2012, 12:22:01 am »
0


1. That means that the leaderboard needs to remove obvious ways to game the system




This. I hadn't given much thought. But, it's hilarious how you can boost your score by playing a bot all day.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 12:23:10 am by Beyond Awesome »
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ftl

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2012, 01:07:10 am »
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It used to be, but no more, I think? You can't get to #1 on the leaderboard without playing some humans, the bots are just too low-ranked nowadays to give you a significant boost, aren't they?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2012, 08:37:11 am »
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I think you can get there, if you also cherry-pick your sets at least. The going is sloooooooow though.

Davio

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2012, 08:45:42 am »
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But I thought bots had their own rating, so if you play them and win their rating decreases and yours increases.
This meaning that you will get less and less points for every match, diminishing returns.

Or is someone actually crazy enough to program his own bot to bot the bots?

(insert random yo dawg).
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2012, 08:46:56 am »
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Diminishing returns isn't 0 returns. And I'm not sure how their rating system is set up, but probably the bots have played many many many more games than any person, so their rating is more stable, if that's at all a thing.

Davio

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2012, 08:48:25 am »
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Diminishing returns isn't 0 returns. And I'm not sure how their rating system is set up, but probably the bots have played many many many more games than any person, so their rating is more stable, if that's at all a thing.
Well, playing bots may get you to a certain mark, but not at the top surely?

The solution is easy anyway: Don't count bot matches toward your rating.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2012, 08:52:00 am »
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Diminishing returns isn't 0 returns. And I'm not sure how their rating system is set up, but probably the bots have played many many many more games than any person, so their rating is more stable, if that's at all a thing.
Well, playing bots may get you to a certain mark, but not at the top surely?

The solution is easy anyway: Don't count bot matches toward your rating.
Yeah, I think the top rank actually. I'm not totally sure since I've played SOME games against people.
Well, hmm. Maybe not. And at least not if you don't cherry-pick sets, probably (this is the real problem, but one we've been told they're working on - and we're still yet to see what the 'pro' leaderboard does).
But at least, as it is now, you can get top 5 or so with only playing the bots, though you can't do near as well now as a week ago.

jsh357

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2012, 09:02:39 am »
0

I was there the night the server was reset, and managed to get in the top 3 with Nomnomnom and somebody else.  Nomnomnom managed a rank of 6400 or so (I assume) mostly playing bots, and he was at the top of the leaderboard for a long time until the bots started falling in the ranks.  I would guess that now it is nowhere near as easy to game the leaderboard.  You have to beat the good players to get there in a reasonable amount of time.
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DStu

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2012, 09:04:07 am »
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@complains: This is a beta. As I understand it, the whole purpose of this beta-testing is to get complains.  So from everything I have read so far, it is not: "This will gonna suck", but "You should (strongly (!!!)) consider this and that, otherwise it gonna suck (for people like me)".

Indeed, people who defend iso are in the same category as people who defend linux: they like the complexity because they know how to navigate it, and the high barrier to entry creates a closer-knit community.  This is true of any specialist community: hackers, football players, swimmers, and stamp collectors all form social groups based on the simple fact that "other" people don't understand the things that community likes to do.
The point of the so called complexity is, once you mastered it, the tool becomes more powerfull. Don't want to derail this into a Linux-thread, but console vs. Window system fits quite well into Graphical Interface vs. Text Interface/Text Log.
If you are not used to it, the graphical Interface might be nicer too look at, and seeing all the cards in something like your hand is much more intuitve than having just the names written there, and seeing how the move to the play area also really shows you what's going on. So you have a lower barrier to entry. But afterwards, it is not as effective as the interface with the higher barrier. If you want to play fast or effective, and you start having hands full of cards, that are overlapping, maybe you realise the the console version is much more powerfull, where you have an overview over your complete hand, instead of having to hover with the mouse over your complete hand, and try to guess which card is hidden under other cards, and repeat that every time after you draw more cards this turn.
Similiarly with animations. If you want to play your Alchemist stack, maybe you prefer (after the first few times at least), just to hammer on the 6 fields, instead of watching an animation for 6 times every turn for the rest of the game.
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AJD

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2012, 09:49:22 am »
0

Diminishing returns isn't 0 returns. And I'm not sure how their rating system is set up, but probably the bots have played many many many more games than any person, so their rating is more stable, if that's at all a thing.
Well, playing bots may get you to a certain mark, but not at the top surely?

I certainly got to the top by playing bots several times in a row. I couldn't do it again, though—the bots' ratings are too low now to increase my score much for beating them.
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blueblimp

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2012, 01:53:02 pm »
+1

I think I lose rating against the bots because more than half the games crash currently...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2012, 01:57:24 pm »
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I think I lose rating against the bots because more than half the games crash currently...
I don't think crashed games get rated, based on my experience.

Also, you're having games against the BOTS crash?

Captain_Frisk

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2012, 01:57:59 pm »
+1

I think I lose rating against the bots because more than half the games crash currently...
I don't think crashed games get rated, based on my experience.

Also, you're having games against the BOTS crash?

Yep - and they have impacted my rating!  I've got a thread over on the official forums listing all of my crashes.  It's a mix of rating impacting and not. 
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blueblimp

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2012, 02:05:35 pm »
0

I think I lose rating against the bots because more than half the games crash currently...
I don't think crashed games get rated, based on my experience.

Also, you're having games against the BOTS crash?
Yep. I'd report them except there's no pattern to it, and no error message I can find. So really all I could say is "the game crashes sometimes", which is not very helpful.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2012, 02:07:17 pm »
0

I think I lose rating against the bots because more than half the games crash currently...
I don't think crashed games get rated, based on my experience.

Also, you're having games against the BOTS crash?
Yep. I'd report them except there's no pattern to it, and no error message I can find. So really all I could say is "the game crashes sometimes", which is not very helpful.

I got an email from trisha that says they know and have a fix that hasn't been pushed yet.
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DG

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2012, 02:15:15 pm »
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When the rankings are reset during beta the first human players can milk the bots and get a high ranking. After a while the bots gets a more accurate ranking. After that you can win 9 games out of 10 against the bots, say, but lose ten times as much ranking for a loss as you gain for a win. There are enough kingdoms that the bots play well, or crashes, misclicks, bad draws, etc for a human player to suffer a few losses.
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engineer

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2012, 02:23:19 pm »
+1


Indeed, people who defend iso are in the same category as people who defend linux: they like the complexity because they know how to navigate it, and the high barrier to entry creates a closer-knit community.  This is true of any specialist community: hackers, football players, swimmers, and stamp collectors all form social groups based on the simple fact that "other" people don't understand the things that community likes to do.
The point of the so called complexity is, once you mastered it, the tool becomes more powerfull. Don't want to derail this into a Linux-thread, but console vs. Window system fits quite well into Graphical Interface vs. Text Interface/Text Log.
If you are not used to it, the graphical Interface might be nicer too look at, and seeing all the cards in something like your hand is much more intuitve than having just the names written there, and seeing how the move to the play area also really shows you what's going on. So you have a lower barrier to entry. But afterwards, it is not as effective as the interface with the higher barrier. If you want to play fast or effective, and you start having hands full of cards, that are overlapping, maybe you realise the the console version is much more powerfull, where you have an overview over your complete hand, instead of having to hover with the mouse over your complete hand, and try to guess which card is hidden under other cards, and repeat that every time after you draw more cards this turn.
Similiarly with animations. If you want to play your Alchemist stack, maybe you prefer (after the first few times at least), just to hammer on the 6 fields, instead of watching an animation for 6 times every turn for the rest of the game.

Oh, I totally agree with you.  I'm a linux user myself. The greater power and efficiency is a huge incentive to overcome the barrier to entry. That's true in most such communities -- there's always a benefit to participation besides the exclusivity.

I'm also not arguing that people who defend iso don't have legitimate points. I'm just pointing out that many iso zealots will never be satisfied with an alternative because it represents an end to the community (even if that doesn't happen in reality).

Now, as far as people complaining about obviously buggy behavior, that's a whole different issue.  Once you're paying to play dominion, you have every reason to expect that it will work properly.
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Davio

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2012, 04:52:53 pm »
0

When the rankings are reset during beta the first human players can milk the bots and get a high ranking. After a while the bots gets a more accurate ranking. After that you can win 9 games out of 10 against the bots, say, but lose ten times as much ranking for a loss as you gain for a win. There are enough kingdoms that the bots play well, or crashes, misclicks, bad draws, etc for a human player to suffer a few losses.
How about using 2 accounts (or a friend)?

One always loses to the bot, increasing its ranking (or keeping it steady), the other always wins.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2012, 05:02:59 pm »
0

When the rankings are reset during beta the first human players can milk the bots and get a high ranking. After a while the bots gets a more accurate ranking. After that you can win 9 games out of 10 against the bots, say, but lose ten times as much ranking for a loss as you gain for a win. There are enough kingdoms that the bots play well, or crashes, misclicks, bad draws, etc for a human player to suffer a few losses.
How about using 2 accounts (or a friend)?

One always loses to the bot, increasing its ranking (or keeping it steady), the other always wins.
Seems easier to just have one tank to the other directly...

ftl

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2012, 06:32:22 pm »
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If you have 2 accounts, then you don't even need bots to game a rating system.

Have account A always beat account B. Have account B play against other human players to the best of your ability. Voila, account A will be super-highly ranked. I guess that method of gaming the ratings is *faster* if account B is beating up on bots, because you can get games in faster, but still.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2012, 03:30:07 am »
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I wonder if they can create a super bot by giving it some sort of AI that takes data from every game it loses and applies it to all future games. Sort of like using Council Room data, I guess, but looking at buys per turn and what not. Over time, I would imagine such a bot can become super powerful and would almost always make the right plays.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2012, 03:11:01 pm »
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I wonder if they can create a super bot by giving it some sort of AI that takes data from every game it loses and applies it to all future games. Sort of like using Council Room data, I guess, but looking at buys per turn and what not. Over time, I would imagine such a bot can become super powerful and would almost always make the right plays.

They could.  It's called machine learning.

But that's probably more work than it's worth, at least until everything else gets sorted out.
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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2012, 09:19:07 am »
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I wonder if they can create a super bot by giving it some sort of AI that takes data from every game it loses and applies it to all future games. Sort of like using Council Room data, I guess, but looking at buys per turn and what not. Over time, I would imagine such a bot can become super powerful and would almost always make the right plays.

It appears SkyNet began as Dominon AI!
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Eagle

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2012, 01:28:32 pm »
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I wonder if they can create a super bot by giving it some sort of AI that takes data from every game it loses and applies it to all future games. Sort of like using Council Room data, I guess, but looking at buys per turn and what not. Over time, I would imagine such a bot can become super powerful and would almost always make the right plays.

Much better to spend time and energy making the game a little more playable first!  :)
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alcaras

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Re: Is it really that bad?
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2012, 08:53:11 am »
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Where's the setting that lets me just click on the card to play it, instead of having to click on the tiny + in the bottom right hand corner of the card?

Also, where is the undo option akin to isotropic's?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 08:54:35 am by alcaras »
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