Topic: Buying Copper w/ Apothecary? (Read 8334 times)

mgallop · « **on:** August 08, 2012, 08:58:52 pm »

Under what circumstances do you guys advise picking up Copper with Apothecary, if I have enough apothecaries I'll often pick some up as long as they dont conflict, but I think I might be wrong.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/08/game-20120808-175238-b14bc85d.html

This was a game where I got 2x Wharf + Apothecaries and Cartographers, and was able to pick up 6 provinces by turn 18 through an opponent who picked up 10 minions. But he informed me that

20:50 VetoPossession: your straergy is asssinine and terible
20:52 VetoPossession: how absurd
20:52 VetoPossession: gratsx idiot.

I'm not sure what happened on his minion turns since the gamelog doesnt pick up his draws.

Anyway, is picking up copper just terrible? Situationally ok?

Morgrim7 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 08, 2012, 09:00:43 pm »

Obviously Apoth/NV.

carstimon · « **Reply #2 on:** August 08, 2012, 09:09:54 pm »

I pick up coppers on about half of my apothecary games, I'd say.

Your opponent got way too many minions. I don't think you can justify spending $10 on minion/margrave on turn 14.

WanderingWinder · « **Reply #3 on:** August 08, 2012, 10:04:01 pm »

~~I. Hate. Sauerkraut.~~ Just. Buy. Wharf.
That's all I'm really tryin' to say here.

Kahryl · « **Reply #4 on:** August 08, 2012, 10:31:37 pm »

Step 1: Mindlessly buy out Minions.

Step 2: Call opponent's "straergy" "asssinine and terible"

zahlman · « **Reply #5 on:** August 08, 2012, 11:51:14 pm »

Quote from: mgallop on August 08, 2012, 08:58:52 pm

20:50 VetoPossession: your straergy is asssinine and terible
20:52 VetoPossession: how absurd
20:52 VetoPossession: gratsx idiot.

At risk of derailing this into yet another "decline of civility" thread: the same guy once told me that my strategy sucked... in what was pretty much a mirror match with one obvious strategy on the board, where I got a bit luckier with shuffling and there was really no room for him to outplay me. I wouldn't put much stock in anything he says (and I also really have to wonder how he got up to the low 40s; I don't think he's won against me yet).

Powerman · « **Reply #6 on:** August 08, 2012, 11:56:09 pm »

I don't love buying coppers, but it's not really bad either. Going minions when there is no trashing + Wharf on the board is bad however. Apothecary is meh here, but with the extra buys I don't mind the coppers.

ednever · « **Reply #7 on:** August 09, 2012, 12:42:36 am »

Apothecary is one of my favorite cards. I use it in two ways:

1- as an engine lubricator: it pulls coppers out of the way for the rest of your engine to fire
2- as the engineitself. Here you just basically use apothecary and a few cantrips to draw your whole deck

In #2 you definitely buy coppers. In fact it only really works if you have a +buy to pick them up.
You generally need $16 worth of coppers/cantrips/single terminal so you can pick up two provinces when you draw your deck. Sometimes that means buying 9 coppers.

Ed

dondon151 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2012, 04:56:03 am »

Quote from: ednever on August 09, 2012, 12:42:36 am

You generally need $16 worth of coppers/cantrips/single terminal so you can pick up two provinces when you draw your deck. Sometimes that means buying 9 coppers.

If you need an extra $9, I'm pretty sure it's better to invest in some Golds (and generally these Apothecary engines can't sustain double-Province turns anyway) rather than to get 9 extra Coppers, because you need a lot of Apothecaries to be able to draw all 16 Coppers consistently.

Davio · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2012, 06:29:06 am »

Apothecaries tend to group bad cards together for your next hand.

If those bad cards are discarded by Minion then it's a pretty decent counter.

KingsSkort · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2012, 07:51:00 pm »

Quote from: ednever on August 09, 2012, 12:42:36 am

Apothecary is one of my favorite cards. I use it in two ways:

1- as an engine lubricator: it pulls coppers out of the way for the rest of your engine to fire
2- as the engineitself. Here you just basically use apothecary and a few cantrips to draw your whole deck

In #2 you definitely buy coppers. In fact it only really works if you have a +buy to pick them up.
You generally need $16 worth of coppers/cantrips/single terminal so you can pick up two provinces when you draw your deck. Sometimes that means buying 9 coppers.

Ed

If you have a moment, could you post a game where you do #2? I have a hard time understanding apothecary.

mgallop · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2012, 08:15:26 pm »

Here'd be a recent example: 1 Market + Caches + Apothecaries, w cellar and Menagerie for digging, 5 provinces + duchy by turn 14.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/10/game-20120810-152244-c996b025.html

zahlman · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2012, 04:32:56 am »

So I get the impression that the idea is to treat Apothecary like Counting House, except instead of relying on shuffle luck to pick up all the copper, you're trying to mass the cards and get them to chain? Yeah, so Cache is obviously really good here. How do you decide how many Apothecaries you need, and like... what you're willing to forgo when you spend $<biggish number>p? Would you ever consider trying to get to $24? (I guess trying to get to $22 in a Colony game is more clearly worthwhile...)

dondon151 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2012, 08:37:01 pm »

Apothecary is not going to help you get to Colonies consistently by itself.

ednever · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2012, 10:10:26 pm »

Quote from: dondon151 on August 11, 2012, 08:37:01 pm

Apothecary is not going to help you get to Colonies consistently by itself.

Correct. But it will get you Platinums pretty easily.

I wouldn't be surprised if:
Buy colony
Buy platinum
Buy apothecary
Buy potion (1)
Buy woodcutter (1)
Buy potion (1 more)
Buy woodcutter (1 more)
Buy copper (up to 9 at least. Maybe 11. Maybe more)

Beats smithy bm on a colony board.

At least that's what my instinct says.

Ed

dondon151 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2012, 11:53:39 pm »

Quote from: ednever on August 11, 2012, 10:10:26 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if:
...
Beats smithy bm on a colony board.

A lot of things beat Smithy-BM on a Colony board.

I'd think your buy rules would be approximately correct, but you don't need 9 Coppers if you have 2-3 Plats in your deck.

ednever · « **Reply #16 on:** August 12, 2012, 03:39:00 am »

Quote from: dondon151 on August 11, 2012, 11:53:39 pm

Quote from: ednever on August 11, 2012, 10:10:26 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if:
...
Beats smithy bm on a colony board.

A lot of things beat Smithy-BM on a Colony board.

I'd think your buy rules would be approximately correct, but you don't need 9 Coppers if you have 2-3 Plats in your deck.

You need the 9 coppers to get the Platinums...

Ed

dondon151 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 12, 2012, 04:00:59 am »

You have +$2 from the Woodcutter, and a small Apothecary stack will get you all of your starting Coppers easily.

qmech · « **Reply #18 on:** August 12, 2012, 05:33:02 am »

Ed's Apothecary strategy lose 30% to 70% against HME's optimised Smithy (modified to buy Colonies). I only added crude buy rules for the other VP cards, but it's a big deficit to overcome.

ednever · « **Reply #19 on:** August 12, 2012, 10:29:37 am »

Quote from: qmech on August 12, 2012, 05:33:02 am

Ed's Apothecary strategy lose 30% to 70% against HME's optimised Smithy (modified to buy Colonies). I only added crude buy rules for the other VP cards, but it's a big deficit to overcome.

Hm. Guess I stand corrected.

I'll try to play with the simulator and see if I can come up with something better!

Ed

^_^_^_^ · « **Reply #20 on:** August 12, 2012, 10:32:31 am »

Would an Apothecary/Counting House/Cache strategy work well?

zahlman · « **Reply #21 on:** August 12, 2012, 11:24:41 am »

Quote from: ^_^_^_^ on August 12, 2012, 10:32:31 am

Would an Apothecary/Counting House/Cache strategy work well?

... So what exactly is your plan here? Stack Apothecaries to draw basically everything except the Counting House, then play CH on the next turn? But the CH might be drawn by the +1 Card on the Apothecary, and even then, instead of playing CH on the "off" turn, you could just, you know, reshuffle, get an Apothecary in that hand, and start stacking Apothecaries again. As much as you'd expect these cards to synergize, I think they actually conflict.

Cache is amazing when you actually want Copper, though, yeah.

engineer · « **Reply #22 on:** August 13, 2012, 12:43:01 am »

What about apothecary/coppersmith? That seems like a good combination...

ednever · « **Reply #23 on:** August 13, 2012, 10:27:01 am »

Quote from: engineer on August 13, 2012, 12:43:01 am

What about apothecary/coppersmith? That seems like a good combination...

It is.

You just need a +buy otherwise you will have way too much money most of the time.

Ed

randomdragoon · « **Reply #24 on:** August 13, 2012, 08:04:36 pm »

apocathary/scrying pool is pretty good if there isn't otherwise a different way to get rid of your copper. Apocathary to draw the coppers (and the potion) into your hand, and scrying pool's deck inspection is typically good enough to deal with your 3 estates. (But you wouldn't buy additional copper in this case)

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Author Topic: Buying Copper w/ Apothecary? (Read 8334 times)