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[shraeye]

Here is a game I lost that I felt like I was doing better in than I apparently was.  I had what felt like plenty of good cards, but couldn't seem to hit the really long turns like my opponent did 5 times.  I noticed that my opponent bought no golds and always bought Hunting Parties over Gold with $6 and $7.  Is this a mistake on my part to buy the golds instead of Hunting Parties?

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120806-133823-0b0624d7.html

[werothegreat]

Yes.  With more Hunting Parties, he was able to play his Mountebank more frequently.  He had enough to skip Curses, Estates and Coppers.  By buying Gold, you just gave your few Hunting Parties one more thing to snag on.

[Toskk]

Monument/Hunting Party is also amazingly strong (I think it rates as the #2 strongest Hunting Party pair, after Baron?).. your opponent only played it four times, but without those points the game would have been a lot closer.

 I feel like I probably would have just skipped Potion and Alchemist altogether, and gone straight Monument/Silver -> Hunting Party -> Mountebank -> more Hunting Parties..

[eHalcyon]

I think I would have skipped MB and stuck with Monument.  Prefer HP to Gold until HP stack is gone.  Definitely skip Alchemist.

[Toskk]

I think I would have skipped MB and stuck with Monument.  Prefer HP to Gold until HP stack is gone.  Definitely skip Alchemist.

I'm pretty sure that the optimized Monument/Hunting Part engine picks up one Gold preferentially to Hunting Parties, and then just keeps buying Hunting Parties. I'd still definitely suggest adding a Mountebank, though.. being able to put even one curse in the opponent's Hunting Party engine will significantly slow it down, and Mountebank is a good stand-in for the +$2 terminal slot in your Hunting Party engine.

[eHalcyon]

I think I would have skipped MB and stuck with Monument.  Prefer HP to Gold until HP stack is gone.  Definitely skip Alchemist.

I'm pretty sure that the optimized Monument/Hunting Part engine picks up one Gold preferentially to Hunting Parties, and then just keeps buying Hunting Parties. I'd still definitely suggest adding a Mountebank, though.. being able to put even one curse in the opponent's Hunting Party engine will significantly slow it down, and Mountebank is a good stand-in for the +$2 terminal slot in your Hunting Party engine.

Revised:

- pick up a Monument
- pick up one Gold and then prefer HP unless HP are contested, in which case prefer HP.  Don't need Gold until going after Provinces.
- still ignore Mountebank

My reasoning is that, even though the Curse slows down HP a bit, it doesn't slow down that much.  I'd prefer to get another HP over the Mountebank.  Monument already fills in as the $2 anchor for the HP stack; having both Monument and Mountebank risks drawing both with HP.

If I hit $4 I might pick up a second Monument.

[methods of rationality]

Skip Mbank?! Imo that's not a good idea. But hp over gold, yes. Normally you want one gold and then always prefer hp. I think its even possible that with a curser, hp is more important than even the first gold (until you have a few hps) since it helps you play your curser more often

[mgallop]

Yeah, I'm also going to have to take a controversial pro-Mountebank stand, since it both requires an extra HP to get past the curse, but it also makes it less likely you get the necessary HP to start a stack in 5 cards. I'd be much more sanguine about skipping witch, but M'Bank gives out so much junk.

[eHalcyon]

Yeah, I'm also going to have to take a controversial pro-Mountebank stand, since it both requires an extra HP to get past the curse, but it also makes it less likely you get the necessary HP to start a stack in 5 cards. I'd be much more sanguine about skipping witch, but M'Bank gives out so much junk.

Hmm, for the first HP, yeah that could make a difference. In that case, skip the Monument!

[mischiefmaker]

Simulator says:

 - HP/Monument gets crushed by HP/Mountebank, around 2:1.
 - Buying HP over Gold is very important; if you let HP/Monument do this but make HP/Mountebank get 1 gold first, this makes it about breakeven.
 - Monument/Mountebank/HP/one gold after all the HP are gone beats HP/Mountebank about 2:1 and HP/Monument about 3:1, and most of the time the game ends on piles (HP/Curse/Estate).

i.e., what Toskk said.

[Toskk]

Simulator says:

 - HP/Monument gets crushed by HP/Mountebank, around 2:1.
 - Buying HP over Gold is very important; if you let HP/Monument do this but make HP/Mountebank get 1 gold first, this makes it about breakeven.
 - Monument/Mountebank/HP/one gold after all the HP are gone beats HP/Mountebank about 2:1 and HP/Monument about 3:1, and most of the time the game ends on piles (HP/Curse/Estate).

i.e., what Toskk said.

Hi Mischiefmaker,

Thanks for running those sims! I did some testing with a few RL games, but it's better to have sim data. Out of curiosity, what order did you have the sim buy the Mountebank vs. the first Hunting Party? From the testing I did, it seemed preferable to spend the first $5 on Hunting Party (assuming the $4/$3 opener went Monument/Silver), and then pick up Mountebank with the second.. although maybe I just got really unlucky on Monument/Mountebank collisions on turns 6-7.

[eHalcyon]

Simulator says:

 - HP/Monument gets crushed by HP/Mountebank, around 2:1.
 - Buying HP over Gold is very important; if you let HP/Monument do this but make HP/Mountebank get 1 gold first, this makes it about breakeven.
 - Monument/Mountebank/HP/one gold after all the HP are gone beats HP/Mountebank about 2:1 and HP/Monument about 3:1, and most of the time the game ends on piles (HP/Curse/Estate).

i.e., what Toskk said.

Huh.  I stand corrected!

[mischiefmaker]

Open Monument/Silver, 1 Mountebank ASAP, HP/Silver, 1 Gold after the HP are gone -> beats HP/Mountebank about 60-40.
Getting 1 HP first, then Mountebank, then HP -> beats HP/Mountebank 52-45.

The comparison against HP/Monument is basically the same: 84-14 for getting Mountebank first, 83-14 for 1 HP first.

Head to head, the version that gets Mountebank first comes out on top, 51-45.


So, it's close enough to be within the margin of shuffle luck, but you should get the Mountebank first. I suspect this is because getting that first Curse into your opponent's deck is big -- makes it that much harder for his HPs to find the key terminals.