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Author Topic: What card design rules are left?  (Read 53721 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2012, 04:17:46 pm »
+1

All I know is that my Fan Card Creation Guide probably needs an overhaul.  I recall that although I mentioned a lot of these as design spaces you should be very careful with, I recall only very seldomly being strict and unequivocal about some particular idea being irredeemable.  But I'm still building up the courage to go back and check.

No worries, man. I already checked and the only thing you might want to change is to soften the wording on the gaining cards from the trash section.
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rinkworks

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2012, 04:23:47 pm »
+3

But I guess maybe we should come up with a community definition of "strictly better" that is useful to use, so that we can be consistent in discussions.

But that's the rub - there aren't any Dominion cards that are "strictly better" as that term is typically used.  So, to a large extent, this is us being hyper-technical terminology nerds for the sake of being hyper-technical terminology nerds.   8)

It's useful when critiquing fan cards.  For instance, I remember a card in WW's expansion:

Something Village
$2 - Action
+2 Actions
+$1


At the time, we debated whether that was balanced at $2 (conclusion: it was), but now it would be useful to say that it's strictly inferior to Squire and should therefore probably cost $1 (now that that precedent's set!) or get a buff.  Is it strictly strictly superior to Squire?  Well no, because there are always Cornucopia cards that can make a deck prefer one of each, and maybe you want to trash it later and not bog your deck down with a Fortune Teller, I don't know.  But those observations don't help WW fix his card.

You're right, though -- no official Dominion card has a strictly better effect as another at the same price, even when you discount edge case puzzles.  Noble Brigand and Hunting Party come closest, but not quite.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 04:25:03 pm by rinkworks »
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rinkworks

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2012, 04:24:11 pm »
0

All I know is that my Fan Card Creation Guide probably needs an overhaul.  I recall that although I mentioned a lot of these as design spaces you should be very careful with, I recall only very seldomly being strict and unequivocal about some particular idea being irredeemable.  But I'm still building up the courage to go back and check.

No worries, man. I already checked and the only thing you might want to change is to soften the wording on the gaining cards from the trash section.

Phew!  Good to know!
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GendoIkari

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #78 on: August 08, 2012, 04:31:51 pm »
0

The discussion is much more relevant in Magic, where strictly better cards exist (and are being added all the time).

Even in Magic, you can find the same edge cases if you are pedantic enough. You have a 2/1 creature that costs 1 red, and I have a 1/1 creature that costs 1 red? Well, I play this card that kills all creatures with power power 2 or greater.

This card deals 3 damage for 1 red, while this other card deals 3 damage for 2 red? Well I play something that discards a card from my hand and gains me x life, where x is the converted mana cost of the card I discarded.
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chwhite

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2012, 04:37:32 pm »
0

Noble Brigand and Hunting Party come closest, but not quite.

Hunting Party?  ???

Rinkworks is saying that the closest Dominion comes to having "strictly better" cards is Noble Brigand over Thief, and Hunting Party over Lab.

Which is accurate.
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werothegreat

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #80 on: August 08, 2012, 04:38:18 pm »
+1

Noble Brigand and Hunting Party come closest, but not quite.

Hunting Party?  ???

Rinkworks is saying that the closest Dominion comes to having "strictly better" cards is Noble Brigand over Thief, and Hunting Party over Lab.

Which is accurate.

But when there are lots of alternate Treasures, Thief is better, and when you want lots of one card, Lab is better.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2012, 04:42:29 pm »
0

Noble Brigand and Hunting Party come closest, but not quite.

Hunting Party?  ???

Rinkworks is saying that the closest Dominion comes to having "strictly better" cards is Noble Brigand over Thief, and Hunting Party over Lab.

Which is accurate.

Yeah, I realized that eventually and deleted my post. I thought at first he had meant to type Thief instead of Hunting Party; that he had said that Noble Brigand was almost strictly better than Hunting Party.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2012, 04:58:37 pm »
0

The discussion is much more relevant in Magic, where strictly better cards exist (and are being added all the time).

Even in Magic, you can find the same edge cases if you are pedantic enough. You have a 2/1 creature that costs 1 red, and I have a 1/1 creature that costs 1 red? Well, I play this card that kills all creatures with power power 2 or greater.

This card deals 3 damage for 1 red, while this other card deals 3 damage for 2 red? Well I play something that discards a card from my hand and gains me x life, where x is the converted mana cost of the card I discarded.

Yes, and you also have Magic's version of Possession to contend with (Mindslaver).  Any card that let's your opponent control your cards/actions contradicts a pedantic interpretation of strictly better. 
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2012, 05:34:48 pm »
+1

Noble Brigand and Hunting Party come closest, but not quite.

Hunting Party?  ???

Rinkworks is saying that the closest Dominion comes to having "strictly better" cards is Noble Brigand over Thief, and Hunting Party over Lab.

Which is accurate.

I'd argue Nomad Camp > Woodcutter is pretty close to a "strictly better" relationship too, what with the $3 and $4 price points being two of the "closest" price points in the game after the first shuffle.
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blueblimp

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2012, 05:36:57 pm »
0

From How costs for cards are set:
Quote
There is perception; people like cards that cost more to look better, and don't want similar cards at the same cost, such that one is "strictly better." And there are special cases. Would Remodel be more powerful at $3?
I like the terminology "special case" here. So of course the effect of Goons is strictly better than the effect of Woodcutter outside of special cases, because cases where you want a discard attack played against you are definitely special.
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Donald X.

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2012, 06:46:18 pm »
+2

Reactions that hurt the attacking player are also right out, though that should be covered under the "no politics" rule.
There's probably an essay from me about this on this site, but the issue is a one-to-three ratio that's the wrong direction. Reactions that hurt the attacker are either too weak for the person buying them or too strong against the other players.
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rinkworks

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #86 on: August 08, 2012, 06:51:11 pm »
0

Noble Brigand and Hunting Party come closest, but not quite.

Hunting Party?  ???

Rinkworks is saying that the closest Dominion comes to having "strictly better" cards is Noble Brigand over Thief, and Hunting Party over Lab.

Which is accurate.

But when there are lots of alternate Treasures, Thief is better, and when you want lots of one card, Lab is better.

Really?  Now we're arguing that cards aren't "almost strictly better" because there are cases when you prefer the alternatives?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 06:52:54 pm by rinkworks »
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ftl

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #87 on: August 08, 2012, 06:54:08 pm »
0

Reactions that hurt the attacking player are also right out, though that should be covered under the "no politics" rule.
There's probably an essay from me about this on this site, but the issue is a one-to-three ratio that's the wrong direction. Reactions that hurt the attacker are either too weak for the person buying them or too strong against the other players.


There is. I've even seen people find it before and bring it up in such discussions. I don't have a link to it on hand though.
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rinkworks

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #88 on: August 08, 2012, 06:56:05 pm »
0

Reactions that hurt the attacking player are also right out, though that should be covered under the "no politics" rule.
There's probably an essay from me about this on this site, but the issue is a one-to-three ratio that's the wrong direction. Reactions that hurt the attacker are either too weak for the person buying them or too strong against the other players.


There is. I've even seen people find it before and bring it up in such discussions. I don't have a link to it on hand though.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=71.0
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DWetzel

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #89 on: August 08, 2012, 07:08:03 pm »
0

Grunching from the OP, rules that are still left:

1. No "random" cards (coin flips, dice rolls, or the like)
2. All cards are two-sided.
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RiemannZetaJones

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #90 on: August 08, 2012, 07:34:59 pm »
0

Don't make a card which is strictly better/worse than another card.

Isn't Copper strictly better than Curse?

edit: No, Curse can be used as a counter to Mountebank.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 07:37:40 pm by RiemannZetaJones »
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RiemannZetaJones

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #91 on: August 08, 2012, 07:45:40 pm »
0

No cards refer to the number of players.
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popsofctown

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #92 on: August 08, 2012, 08:00:28 pm »
0

Grunching from the OP, rules that are still left:

1. No "random" cards (coin flips, dice rolls, or the like)
2. All cards are two-sided.

Stash?  Or what do you mean by two sided?
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dghunter79

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #93 on: August 08, 2012, 08:08:36 pm »
+4

Grunching from the OP, rules that are still left:

2. All cards are two-sided.

And strictly never made from human skin.

zahlman

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #94 on: August 08, 2012, 08:09:39 pm »
0

Grunching from the OP, rules that are still left:

1. No "random" cards (coin flips, dice rolls, or the like)
2. All cards are two-sided.

Stash?  Or what do you mean by two sided?

I assume he's talking about the physical geometry of the card.

"When you gain this, you may shuffle any number of VP tokens into your deck."
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Cuzz

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #95 on: August 08, 2012, 08:17:18 pm »
0

How about Alchemist over Lab (considering effect only)? The topdecking is optional, so there'd be literally no reason to ever take Lab if they cost the same.
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werothegreat

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #96 on: August 08, 2012, 08:29:41 pm »
+1

How about Alchemist over Lab (considering effect only)? The topdecking is optional, so there'd be literally no reason to ever take Lab if they cost the same.

If there were trashing, I'd go Lab.  Otherwise, I'd go Alchemist.
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RiemannZetaJones

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #97 on: August 08, 2012, 08:37:40 pm »
0

How about Alchemist over Lab (considering effect only)? The topdecking is optional, so there'd be literally no reason to ever take Lab if they cost the same.

There are several pairs of cards in which one is more expensive, but otherwise strictly better than, the other. Many Villages, some other vanilla cards (a lot of things are strictly worse than Grand Market), Expand beats Remodel etc.
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PigFiend

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #98 on: August 08, 2012, 08:43:08 pm »
0

Something Village
$2 - Action
+2 Actions
+$1


At the time, we debated whether that was balanced at $2 (conclusion: it was), but now it would be useful to say that it's strictly
Why come to this conclusion so readily? Maybe with some play, Squire will prove quite imbalanced.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #99 on: August 08, 2012, 08:55:16 pm »
+1

Something Village
$2 - Action
+2 Actions
+$1


At the time, we debated whether that was balanced at $2 (conclusion: it was), but now it would be useful to say that it's strictly
Why come to this conclusion so readily? Maybe with some play, Squire will prove quite imbalanced.

Unlikely.  Squire has already undergone a heckuva lotta play. :P
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