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Author Topic: What card design rules are left?  (Read 53726 times)

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chwhite

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2012, 02:20:21 pm »
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"No politics" and "No curses other than Curse" are the only two rules that I think are pretty much ironclad.  Reactions that hurt the attacking player are also right out, though that should be covered under the "no politics" rule.

At this point there's a very good chance we'll never see one, but I think a cantrip Moat is possible.

We have yet to see a discard Attack where the attacker chooses what card to discard rather than the victim; I'd love to see one but suspect it's too nasty to balance.  We won't see a Duration-Attack and I think that's the biggest missed opportunity in the entire Dominion universe.

Treasure-Action would have to be a card where you choose to play it as an Action for one effect, or as a Treasure for a different effect.  It could be done, but as with the other examples above I'd expect it probably won't be.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2012, 02:24:55 pm »
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We have yet to see a discard Attack where the attacker chooses what card to discard rather than the victim; I'd love to see one but suspect it's too nasty to balance.

That seems like it'd likely run afoul of the no politics rule, but I suppose no more so than something like Swindler ("Why'd you replace his Copper with another Copper and my Copper with a Curse?!?")
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rinkworks

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2012, 02:44:08 pm »
+1

All I know is that my Fan Card Creation Guide probably needs an overhaul.  I recall that although I mentioned a lot of these as design spaces you should be very careful with, I recall only very seldomly being strict and unequivocal about some particular idea being irredeemable.  But I'm still building up the courage to go back and check.
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2012, 02:48:34 pm »
+1

We've now also seen a card which returns itself to the supply on play.

I know I'm being obnoxious, but Madman is not in the supply; it gets returned to the Madman pile on play.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2012, 03:00:45 pm »
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Strictly better:

The cards must have the same cost.

The cards must do the same thing.

One card you will always take over the other.

If the cards cost the same and do the same thing, there is no mechanical reason you would prefer one over the other.  Though I suppose you might prefer one for the artwork, or the name.  Or maybe just based on how many are left in supply, or for things like HoP.

Whenever I talk about "strictly better" cards, I consider which one would be preferred if they cost the same.  In other words, I consider Card A strictly better than Card B if A can do everything B can do, plus something extra that is beneficial, with no additional detriments.

For example, Expand is strictly better than Remodel.  Goons is strictly better than Militia.
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2012, 03:06:14 pm »
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Strictly better:

The cards must have the same cost.

The cards must do the same thing.

One card you will always take over the other.

If the cards cost the same and do the same thing, there is no mechanical reason you would prefer one over the other.  Though I suppose you might prefer one for the artwork, or the name.  Or maybe just based on how many are left in supply, or for things like HoP.

Whenever I talk about "strictly better" cards, I consider which one would be preferred if they cost the same.  In other words, I consider Card A strictly better than Card B if A can do everything B can do, plus something extra that is beneficial, with no additional detriments.

For example, Expand is strictly better than Remodel.  Goons is strictly better than Militia.
And this is what I call 'strictly better effect'. But I have a question for you: is Goons strictly better than woodcutter?

jonts26

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2012, 03:07:36 pm »
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But I have a question for you: is Goons strictly better than woodcutter?

Oh, I know this one! Answer is NO. Because opponents discarding might be advantageous to them and they can reveal reactions. Do I get a prize?
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eHalcyon

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2012, 03:10:25 pm »
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But I have a question for you: is Goons strictly better than woodcutter?

Oh, I know this one! Answer is NO. Because opponents discarding might be advantageous to them and they can reveal reactions. Do I get a prize?

This indeed.  One of the examples I was thinking of was Margrave > Smithy, but that's also not true because the discard can be good for the opponent.
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rinkworks

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2012, 03:13:36 pm »
+1

But I have a question for you: is Goons strictly better than woodcutter?

Oh, I know this one! Answer is NO. Because opponents discarding might be advantageous to them and they can reveal reactions. Do I get a prize?

I say yes, because although that is quite correct, it adheres to the definition of "strictly" too strictly to be useful.  The equivalent is saying that Militia is not strictly superior to...

Not Strictly Superior To Militia!?
$4 - Action
+$2
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eHalcyon

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2012, 03:18:52 pm »
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But I have a question for you: is Goons strictly better than woodcutter?

Oh, I know this one! Answer is NO. Because opponents discarding might be advantageous to them and they can reveal reactions. Do I get a prize?

I say yes, because although that is quite correct, it adheres to the definition of "strictly" too strictly to be useful.  The equivalent is saying that Militia is not strictly superior to...

Not Strictly Superior To Militia!?
$4 - Action
+$2


It's almost strictly superior.  Almost. :P
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zahlman

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2012, 03:27:04 pm »
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Reactions that hurt the attacking player are also right out, though that should be covered under the "no politics" rule.

Sorry, I don't follow, not in the slightest. Everyone has the same opportunity to play action cards, and to reveal such a reaction; such a reaction wouldn't interact with third parties (it's just "I attack everyone; everyone has the chance to cause me to be hurt"); and it wouldn't affect third parties' decisions to reveal reactions (regardless of whether another player caused the attacker to be hurt, I still want to be unaffected by the original attack if possible). Where are the politics, and what's the problem?
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engineer

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2012, 03:29:11 pm »
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Reactions that hurt the attacking player are also right out, though that should be covered under the "no politics" rule.

Sorry, I don't follow, not in the slightest. Everyone has the same opportunity to play action cards, and to reveal such a reaction; such a reaction wouldn't interact with third parties (it's just "I attack everyone; everyone has the chance to cause me to be hurt"); and it wouldn't affect third parties' decisions to reveal reactions (regardless of whether another player caused the attacker to be hurt, I still want to be unaffected by the original attack if possible). Where are the politics, and what's the problem?

If the reaction doesn't save the reactor but only hurts the attacker, then I could choose to play the reaction on one attacker and not another, because I like you better, or I think he's winning, or whatever.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2012, 03:32:12 pm »
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Reactions that hurt the attacking player are also right out, though that should be covered under the "no politics" rule.

Sorry, I don't follow, not in the slightest. Everyone has the same opportunity to play action cards, and to reveal such a reaction; such a reaction wouldn't interact with third parties (it's just "I attack everyone; everyone has the chance to cause me to be hurt"); and it wouldn't affect third parties' decisions to reveal reactions (regardless of whether another player caused the attacker to be hurt, I still want to be unaffected by the original attack if possible). Where are the politics, and what's the problem?

My close friend Joe plays an attack card.  Joe is a cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything, so I choose not to reveal my harmful reaction card, Super Spiky Shield.  Schmoe goes next.  He is not a cool guy.  He plays an attack card so I spite him by revealing the reaction.  Tough luck, Schmoe!

Moreover, given the reaction, you can't allow it to be revealed more than once.  You have to put in a mechanic such that the reaction gets discarded or set aside.  If that isn't worded with extreme care, you get into situations where you think, "I could use my reaction now, but Schmoe is winning so I should save it, just in case."

(ninja'd, but I was more detailed ;) )
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werothegreat

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2012, 03:45:46 pm »
+1

Strictly better:

The cards must have the same cost.

The cards must do the same thing.

One card you will always take over the other.

If the cards cost the same and do the same thing, there is no mechanical reason you would prefer one over the other.  Though I suppose you might prefer one for the artwork, or the name.  Or maybe just based on how many are left in supply, or for things like HoP.

Whenever I talk about "strictly better" cards, I consider which one would be preferred if they cost the same.  In other words, I consider Card A strictly better than Card B if A can do everything B can do, plus something extra that is beneficial, with no additional detriments.

For example, Expand is strictly better than Remodel.  Goons is strictly better than Militia.
And this is what I call 'strictly better effect'. But I have a question for you: is Goons strictly better than woodcutter?

The effect is strictly better than Militia, but Goons has a cost increase of $2, therefore Militia is not obsolete.  In order to be "strictly better," they have to have the same cost.
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zahlman

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2012, 03:46:28 pm »
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My close friend Joe plays an attack card.  Joe is a cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything, so I choose not to reveal my harmful reaction card, Super Spiky Shield.  Schmoe goes next.  He is not a cool guy.  He plays an attack card so I spite him by revealing the reaction.  Tough luck, Schmoe!

Yep. The ninja-comment said something about not saving the reactor, though. If the reaction also protected the reactor, would that be enough to solve the problem? I guess it depends on how powerful the counter-attack is. Would I let Joe make me discard down to 3 (one of which is my reaction that I'll have to discard if I use it) so that I can put a Curse in Schmoe's deck? Several Curses (or to take an example from something that actually already exists, a Curse and a Copper)? And then, I don't know if Schmoe is going to attack this time around...

What if the reaction were compulsory? But then I guess there is no way to keep people honest except "in games using this, all players reveal their hands in response to any Attack", which in turn makes every other reaction compulsory and also strengthens(?) the attack by having everyone give information to everyone else.

Quote
Moreover, given the reaction, you can't allow it to be revealed more than once.  You have to put in a mechanic such that the reaction gets discarded or set aside.

Depending on the counterattack. If it's "the attacker discards down to 3 cards", then it doesn't matter if that's revealed multiple times. If it's "the attacker gains a Curse", it definitely does.

Quote
If that isn't worded with extreme care, you get into situations where you think, "I could use my reaction now, but Schmoe is winning so I should save it, just in case."

I'm thinking my concept of "politics" doesn't include situations where the second-place player is incentivized to play differently against the leader than against the loser, simply by virtue of the current standings. It's not like we're actively co-operating with Joe here.

But maybe we need a separate thread to discuss just what "politics" means to people :)
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eHalcyon

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2012, 03:47:23 pm »
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The effect is strictly better than Militia, but Goons has a cost increase of $2, therefore Militia is not obsolete.  In order to be "strictly better," they have to have the same cost.

The effect is not strictly better.  Sometimes you don't want the opponent to discard.
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2012, 03:49:29 pm »
+1

The effect is strictly better than Militia, but Goons has a cost increase of $2, therefore Militia is not obsolete.  In order to be "strictly better," they have to have the same cost.

The effect is not strictly better.  Sometimes you don't want the opponent to discard.

I'm talking about Goons > Militia.  I'm not talking about Woodcutter.  Adding +Buy and VP chips to the same exact thing is better.
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2012, 03:51:08 pm »
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I'm talking about Goons > Militia.  I'm not talking about Woodcutter.  Adding +Buy and VP chips to the same exact thing is better.

Oh, in that case, yes.  Sorry for misreading!

But I already said that I don't consider cost when talking about "strictly better".  WW pointed out that I'm just considering "strictly better effects", which is true.  I don't think taking cost into account is useful.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2012, 03:59:12 pm »
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I'm talking about Goons > Militia.  I'm not talking about Woodcutter.  Adding +Buy and VP chips to the same exact thing is better.

Oh, in that case, yes.  Sorry for misreading!

But I already said that I don't consider cost when talking about "strictly better".  WW pointed out that I'm just considering "strictly better effects", which is true.  I don't think taking cost into account is useful.

Border Village vs Village. Not a strictly better effect, because you might not want to gain another card.
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rinkworks

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2012, 04:05:19 pm »
+2

I'm talking about Goons > Militia.  I'm not talking about Woodcutter.  Adding +Buy and VP chips to the same exact thing is better.

Oh, in that case, yes.  Sorry for misreading!

But I already said that I don't consider cost when talking about "strictly better".  WW pointed out that I'm just considering "strictly better effects", which is true.  I don't think taking cost into account is useful.

It is if you're talking about card design.  Having one card strictly better than another is bad.  But it's fine for one card to have a strictly better effect than another, if the costs of the two cards are different.

This is also why I say it's not useful to say Goons' effect isn't strictly better than Woodcutter's, on the grounds that sometimes you don't want your opponent to discard.  I mean, if the context of the discussion has something to do with Dominion puzzles -- i.e., come up with a situation when you'd rather have a free Woodcutter than a free Goons -- then fine.  But if the discussion is about card design (such as this thread), arguing that Goons doesn't have a strictly better effect than Woodcutter is not useful.  It's strictly better for the practical purpose of card design, so why quibble?
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eHalcyon

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2012, 04:07:24 pm »
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It is if you're talking about card design.  Having one card strictly better than another is bad.  But it's fine for one card to have a strictly better effect than another, if the costs of the two cards are different.

This is also why I say it's not useful to say Goons' effect isn't strictly better than Woodcutter's, on the grounds that sometimes you don't want your opponent to discard.  I mean, if the context of the discussion has something to do with Dominion puzzles -- i.e., come up with a situation when you'd rather have a free Woodcutter than a free Goons -- then fine.  But if the discussion is about card design (such as this thread), arguing that Goons doesn't have a strictly better effect than Woodcutter is not useful.  It's strictly better for the practical purpose of card design, so why quibble?

Fair enough.

But I guess maybe we should come up with a community definition of "strictly better" that is useful to use, so that we can be consistent in discussions.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2012, 04:09:37 pm »
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It is if you're talking about card design.  Having one card strictly better than another is bad.  But it's fine for one card to have a strictly better effect than another, if the costs of the two cards are different.

This is also why I say it's not useful to say Goons' effect isn't strictly better than Woodcutter's, on the grounds that sometimes you don't want your opponent to discard.  I mean, if the context of the discussion has something to do with Dominion puzzles -- i.e., come up with a situation when you'd rather have a free Woodcutter than a free Goons -- then fine.  But if the discussion is about card design (such as this thread), arguing that Goons doesn't have a strictly better effect than Woodcutter is not useful.  It's strictly better for the practical purpose of card design, so why quibble?

Fair enough.

But I guess maybe we should come up with a community definition of "strictly better" that is useful to use, so that we can be consistent in discussions.

I think WW said it well earlier in the thread. The question that matters is, "is this other card obsolete?" If Goons cost $3, Woodcutter would be obsolete. You need puzzle-type questions to arise before you start to even consider that there might be times you'd take a Woodcutter instead (Horse Traders!)
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2012, 04:14:12 pm »
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No card is strictly better than another card, because there will always be edge cases.

I mean, even Goons vs Militia. Let's say your opponent plays a Governor to trash and get the last Province, hoping you won't be able to get the crucial Duchy. In that case, you'd rather have Militia in hand than Goons.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2012, 04:14:36 pm »
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But I guess maybe we should come up with a community definition of "strictly better" that is useful to use, so that we can be consistent in discussions.

But that's the rub - there aren't any Dominion cards that are "strictly better" as that term is typically used.  So, to a large extent, this is us being hyper-technical terminology nerds for the sake of being hyper-technical terminology nerds.   8)
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2012, 04:15:22 pm »
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The discussion is much more relevant in Magic, where strictly better cards exist (and are being added all the time).
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