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Author Topic: What card design rules are left?  (Read 53717 times)

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AJD

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2012, 11:58:18 am »
0

We've also just violated the "fish through your discard" rule.

Wasn't that rule first violated with Counting House?

Well, pulling Copper out of the discard pile is a pretty controlled situation. Sort of like how Mine gains a Treasure directly into your hand. It's OK, because there's only so much shenanigans you can get up to with that Treasure card.

Inn also fishes through your discard.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2012, 12:14:08 pm »
+6

I'm sorry - which of those is strictly better than the other? Council room gives you more cards. Margrave has the attack. So, the attack is USUALLY better, but not always.
Hence, the word STRICTLY is important here.

This is the point at which, if we were discussing Magic, and a strictly better card actually existed, some asshat would point to Possession and say "nuh-uh, it's not strictly better because if you were possesed, you'd rather have the worse version."

But, yeah, there has yet to be a Dominion card that's strictly better than another Dominion card.  Well, except Scout, which is strictly better than Smithy because you can draw 4 cards with it and get +1 Action.
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2012, 12:20:54 pm »
+3

I'm sorry - which of those is strictly better than the other? Council room gives you more cards. Margrave has the attack. So, the attack is USUALLY better, but not always.
Hence, the word STRICTLY is important here.

This is the point at which, if we were discussing Magic, and a strictly better card actually existed, some asshat would point to Possession and say "nuh-uh, it's not strictly better because if you were possesed, you'd rather have the worse version."

But, yeah, there has yet to be a Dominion card that's strictly better than another Dominion card.  Well, except Scout, which is strictly better than Smithy because you can draw 4 cards with it and get +1 Action.

I'd say Copper is strictly better than Curse.
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Taco Lobster

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2012, 12:27:49 pm »
0

I'm sorry - which of those is strictly better than the other? Council room gives you more cards. Margrave has the attack. So, the attack is USUALLY better, but not always.
Hence, the word STRICTLY is important here.

This is the point at which, if we were discussing Magic, and a strictly better card actually existed, some asshat would point to Possession and say "nuh-uh, it's not strictly better because if you were possesed, you'd rather have the worse version."

But, yeah, there has yet to be a Dominion card that's strictly better than another Dominion card.  Well, except Scout, which is strictly better than Smithy because you can draw 4 cards with it and get +1 Action.

I'd say Copper is strictly better than Curse.

Not if you're being possessed!

(Fair point - I was thinking kingdom cards)
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zahlman

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2012, 12:31:47 pm »
+2

Since nobody else mentioned it: cantrip moats.
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werothegreat

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2012, 12:32:18 pm »
+3

I'm sorry - which of those is strictly better than the other? Council room gives you more cards. Margrave has the attack. So, the attack is USUALLY better, but not always.
Hence, the word STRICTLY is important here.

This is the point at which, if we were discussing Magic, and a strictly better card actually existed, some asshat would point to Possession and say "nuh-uh, it's not strictly better because if you were possesed, you'd rather have the worse version."

But, yeah, there has yet to be a Dominion card that's strictly better than another Dominion card.  Well, except Scout, which is strictly better than Smithy because you can draw 4 cards with it and get +1 Action.

I'd say Copper is strictly better than Curse.

Not if you're being possessed!

(Fair point - I was thinking kingdom cards)

Actually, Shanty Town/Poor House/Poor House/Curse/Curse would allow your Possessee to buy a Province, whereas Shanty Town/Poor House/Poor House/Copper/Copper would not.
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2012, 12:32:35 pm »
0

Since nobody else mentioned it: Lighthouse.

FTFY
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2012, 12:34:43 pm »
+1

There aren't any unconditionally non-terminal cards that have the potential to draw more than 2 cards without penalty...

EXCEPT SCOUT!

And apothecary
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2012, 12:37:15 pm »
0

There aren't any unconditionally non-terminal cards that have the potential to draw more than 2 cards without penalty...

EXCEPT SCOUT!

And apothecary

And Crossroads and now Madman.

EDIT: Err, I guess you could argue that both of those have penalties.
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GeoLib

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2012, 12:38:46 pm »
+10

I'd say Copper is strictly better than Curse.

Nuh uh. If your opponent plays a Mountebank, you'd rather have a curse in hand so you can discard it and avoid getting that nasty copper.
If you play an Ambassador you'd rather have a curse in hand so you can give that to your opponents.
If you play an Adventurer, you'd rather hit a curse then a copper so it will keep looking for better treasure.
If you play a Venture, you'd rather hit a curse then a copper so it will keep looking for better treasure.
If you play a Farming Village, you'd rather hit a curse then a copper so it will keep looking for better treasure and actions.
If you play a Masquerade, you'd rather have a curse in hand so you can give it to the person on your left.
If your opponent plays a Tribute you'd rather they hit a curse than a copper, so they don't get +$2.
If you opponent plays a Pirate Ship, you'd rather they hit a curse so they don't get a token.
If you play a Menagerie, you'd rather have a curse than a second copper in hand, so you can get +3 cards.
If you play a Harvest, you'd rather turn up a curse than a second copper, so you can get +$1 more.
If you have Fairgrounds, you'd rather have one curse than another copper, so it's worth 2/5ths of a point more.
If you're being possessed, you'd rather have a curse in hand, so your opponent can't spend as much.

Clearly curse is an excellent card. :-P
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2012, 12:40:07 pm »
0

Crossroads is only non terminal the first time you play it, and madman has a penalty
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Taco Lobster

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2012, 12:47:38 pm »
0

Heh.  I think the way "strictly better" is traditionally defined, all characteristics of the card need to be the same, which means that, despite what I posted above, Copper probably isn't strictly better than Curse because the quality of being a treasure and of being a Curse each have separate and distinct rules associated with them. 

Or something like that.  People love to argue strictly better because it's such an absolute term. 

Swindler is another good card to break strictly better arguments.  If there was a treasure that cost $0 and produced $3, you'd still get people arguing that it is not strictly better because Swindler turns the former into a Curse, whereas it would turn Gold into (usually) another Gold.
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jonts26

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2012, 01:01:32 pm »
0

We've now also seen a card which returns itself to the supply on play.
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theory

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2012, 01:03:49 pm »
0

Depends on how useful you want the term "strictly better" to be.

For Dominion purposes it is probably most helpful to just define it ex ante, because ex post there would be no such thing as "strictly better" when Ambassador is involved.
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zahlman

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2012, 01:06:05 pm »
+1

Since nobody else mentioned it: Lighthouse.

FTFY

Lighthouse is a pretty solid defense, but it doesn't draw a card to go with the action. So even if you're consistently playing one a turn perfectly smoothly in an otherwise BM deck, you're still effectively only getting a Silver from those cards, and that's really the absolute best case. It gets in the way of your village-draw engines since it reduces your effective initial hand size (opportunities to pick up the villages and drawers). But yeah I still buy multiples of them most of the time they're around :)
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werothegreat

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2012, 01:17:44 pm »
0

Since nobody else mentioned it: Lighthouse.

FTFY

Lighthouse is a pretty solid defense, but it doesn't draw a card to go with the action. So even if you're consistently playing one a turn perfectly smoothly in an otherwise BM deck, you're still effectively only getting a Silver from those cards, and that's really the absolute best case. It gets in the way of your village-draw engines since it reduces your effective initial hand size (opportunities to pick up the villages and drawers). But yeah I still buy multiples of them most of the time they're around :)

They go great with Menagerie/Library/etc.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2012, 01:23:29 pm »
0

Heh.  I think the way "strictly better" is traditionally defined, all characteristics of the card need to be the same, which means that, despite what I posted above, Copper probably isn't strictly better than Curse because the quality of being a treasure and of being a Curse each have separate and distinct rules associated with them. 

Or something like that.  People love to argue strictly better because it's such an absolute term. 

Swindler is another good card to break strictly better arguments.  If there was a treasure that cost $0 and produced $3, you'd still get people arguing that it is not strictly better because Swindler turns the former into a Curse, whereas it would turn Gold into (usually) another Gold.

Trash for benefit cards also make it so that even if 2 cards are identical except for the price, the cheaper one is not necessarily strictly better than the more expensive one.
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chwhite

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2012, 01:57:13 pm »
0

There aren't any unconditionally non-terminal cards that have the potential to draw more than 2 cards without penalty...

EXCEPT SCOUT!

And apothecary

And Crossroads and now Madman.

EDIT: Err, I guess you could argue that both of those have penalties.

And Menagerie.
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2012, 02:02:45 pm »
0

Depends on how useful you want the term "strictly better" to be.

For Dominion purposes it is probably most helpful to just define it ex ante, because ex post there would be no such thing as "strictly better" when Ambassador is involved.

Indeed, we probably abuse the hell out of the words "strictly better."  Sure, there is a situation where Copper is better than Platinum, but that situation is so incredibly rare and difficult to set up that it's nearly meaningless.
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2012, 02:07:43 pm »
+1

Strictly better:

The cards must have the same cost.

The cards must do the same thing.

One card you will always take over the other.
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2012, 02:08:11 pm »
0

Depends on how useful you want the term "strictly better" to be.

For Dominion purposes it is probably most helpful to just define it ex ante, because ex post there would be no such thing as "strictly better" when Ambassador is involved.

Indeed, we probably abuse the hell out of the words "strictly better."  Sure, there is a situation where Copper is better than Platinum, but that situation is so incredibly rare and difficult to set up that it's nearly meaningless.
I can think of six off the top of my head (coppersmith, apothecary, counting house, possession, moneylender, thief), plus the uh, oh yeah, it's a LOT cheaper. And cost is important, though 'strictly better effect' is important too.
I guess the important point is that no one card should obsolete another; not even warehouse/cellar or margrave/council room do that, really.

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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2012, 02:08:14 pm »
0

Weird dual-types, like Treasure-Action, Something-Curse or Treasure-Duration.

Some of those make no sense, cause confusion or are already promised to never appear, but you never know...
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2012, 02:10:06 pm »
+2

Agreed.  Strictly better is a useful concept for discussing card games, and the corner cases in which an inferior card would be better than a superior card aren't particularly useful or relevant to that discussion. 
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2012, 02:13:00 pm »
+1

Even Thief and Noble Brigand can't be strictly better than one another, because they really do different things.
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Re: What card design rules are left?
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2012, 02:16:02 pm »
0

There aren't any unconditionally non-terminal cards that have the potential to draw more than 2 cards without penalty...

EXCEPT SCOUT!

And apothecary

And Crossroads and now Madman.

EDIT: Err, I guess you could argue that both of those have penalties.

And Menagerie.

And Scrying Pool.

I'd say Copper is strictly better than Curse.

Nuh uh. If your opponent plays a Mountebank, you'd rather have a curse in hand so you can discard it and avoid getting that nasty copper.
If you play an Ambassador you'd rather have a curse in hand so you can give that to your opponents.
If you play an Adventurer, you'd rather hit a curse then a copper so it will keep looking for better treasure.
If you play a Venture, you'd rather hit a curse then a copper so it will keep looking for better treasure.
If you play a Farming Village, you'd rather hit a curse then a copper so it will keep looking for better treasure and actions.
If you play a Masquerade, you'd rather have a curse in hand so you can give it to the person on your left.
If your opponent plays a Tribute you'd rather they hit a curse than a copper, so they don't get +$2.
If you opponent plays a Pirate Ship, you'd rather they hit a curse so they don't get a token.
If you play a Menagerie, you'd rather have a curse than a second copper in hand, so you can get +3 cards.
If you play a Harvest, you'd rather turn up a curse than a second copper, so you can get +$1 more.
If you have Fairgrounds, you'd rather have one curse than another copper, so it's worth 2/5ths of a point more.
If you're being possessed, you'd rather have a curse in hand, so your opponent can't spend as much.

Clearly curse is an excellent card. :-P

You'd rather have curse in hand if you're playing multiple Poor Houses this turn!
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