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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman  (Read 120467 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #150 on: August 08, 2012, 03:00:35 pm »
+1

But hermit is also going to be a passable workshop variant in engines with cheap cards. Gain a village, trash an estate is huge even before you decide whether or not you want to trade it for a madman.

Workshop has gotten a boost from Poor House, Squire, Hermit and Sage.

EDIT: Which reminds me - wouldn't it be ridiculous to Workshop a Feast?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #151 on: August 08, 2012, 03:04:08 pm »
0

But hermit is also going to be a passable workshop variant in engines with cheap cards. Gain a village, trash an estate is huge even before you decide whether or not you want to trade it for a madman.

Workshop has gotten a boost from Poor House, Squire, Hermit and Sage.

EDIT: Which reminds me - wouldn't it be ridiculous to Workshop a Feast?
In fact, I believe I have done that TODAY, in a game with KC and no other +buy/gainers.

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #152 on: August 08, 2012, 03:11:45 pm »
+3

But hermit is also going to be a passable workshop variant in engines with cheap cards. Gain a village, trash an estate is huge even before you decide whether or not you want to trade it for a madman.

Workshop has gotten a boost from Poor House, Squire, Hermit and Sage.

EDIT: Which reminds me - wouldn't it be ridiculous to Workshop a Feast?

Hard Mode: Hermit a workshop, workshop a feast, feast a graverobber, grave rob a Gold from the trash.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #153 on: August 08, 2012, 03:13:27 pm »
+1

But hermit is also going to be a passable workshop variant in engines with cheap cards. Gain a village, trash an estate is huge even before you decide whether or not you want to trade it for a madman.

Workshop has gotten a boost from Poor House, Squire, Hermit and Sage.

EDIT: Which reminds me - wouldn't it be ridiculous to Workshop a Feast?

Hard Mode: Hermit a workshop, workshop a feast, feast a graverobber, grave rob a Gold from the trash.

Hermit Workshop and buy nothing, gaining a Madman.

Workshop a Feast.

Feast a Graverobber.

Graverob the Hermit you trashed.
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joel88s

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #154 on: August 08, 2012, 04:48:38 pm »
+1

Now, I think I know the answer to this, but I just want to make sure - can a Scheme save a Hermit from Madness?
Even though Scheme says "if" rather than "when," it's the same timing as "when" - both cards do something when Hermit is discarded from play. So you pick what order to resolve the effects. If you resolve Hermit first, Scheme will be unable to find Hermit in the trash, due to the lose track rule (which is in the Dark Ages rulebook). If you resolve Scheme first, Hermit will be unable to trash itself, but will still gain you a Madman (there's no "if you do" there).


This ruling surprised me a bit and I've been puzzling over it all day (I know, get a life, really.) Of course it will be nice to see the legendary and elusive Lose Track rule at last set down in black and blue. My impression is that so far it has mostly referred to one card losing track of another (Throne Room loses Mining Village, Watchtower loses Border Village, etc.) but apparently here a card can also lose track of itself.

One aspect I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is that the Hermit could lose itself for the purposes of trashing itself, but not for gaining a Madman. OK I guess the idea is you read both cards (Hermit and Scheme) simultaneously and decide which to carry out first, and if the Hermit is not around when it's time to execute it, you can still remember its instructions and follow the ones you can, fair enough.

Then I'm trying to think if there's any way between the Scheming and the Hermitting that the Hermit could be buried or end up anywhere other than the top of the deck, and if not why it would count as being Lost Track Of, since as I understand it for example you can still Watchtower a card from the top of your deck. But of course we don't know how many other as yet unimaginable on-discard effects that might intervene will emerge in the next week. And I guess Lose Track may just be one those arcane realms kind of like quantum mechanics where at a certain point you have to give up on trying to understand it intuitively, and just trust the math.

(Also yes I can see how it must be so annoying when people theorize about the rules without having all the facts, enough to make you wish you'd just shut up in the first place, but hey it's kind of inevitable people will muse and speculate when they're totally excited about something, that's just human nature, there it is what are you going to do.)

A final thought though: even if for lack of 'if you do' we eschew the semantic temptation to read 'trash this and gain a Madman' as one instruction - rather like "stop at the store on the way home and pick up some milk" where the consequentially is implied even if not explicit (though I suppose to a Dominion player one ought really to say "stop at the store on the way home; if you do, pick up some milk") - even granting that logical consistency, separating them and allowing a Madman to materialize ex nihilo does at least seem to belie the expressed thematic concept, that of cards turning into other cards.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 04:51:21 pm by joel88s »
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engineer

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #155 on: August 08, 2012, 04:49:51 pm »
0

How about when squire, hermit and goons are all on the table?

Open hermit/hermit.  Use the first hermit to gain a squire.  Use the second hermit to turn the gained squire into goons.  You could get a goons as early as turn 4 with decent probability.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #156 on: August 08, 2012, 05:15:18 pm »
0

Hard Mode: Hermit a workshop, workshop a feast, feast a graverobber, grave rob a Gold from the trash.

Step-By-Step Remodel Bookends Mode:
Remodel a Copper into a Poor House, Poor House buys Duchess, Duchess (+1) buys Hermit, Hermit a Workshop, Workshop a Feast, Feast a Graverobber, Grave rob a Border Village (gaining a Remake), Remake the Border Village into an Expand, Remake the Expand into a Province, Remake the Province into a Platinum, Remodel the Platinum into a Colony.
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jotheonah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #157 on: August 08, 2012, 05:19:09 pm »
+1

I wonder if there'll ever be a card with the text "This card cannot be trashed"
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #158 on: August 08, 2012, 05:21:29 pm »
0

This page really confused me because I didn't think I'd posted in this thread... XD
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #159 on: August 08, 2012, 05:22:52 pm »
0

OMG, I thought he was you too. Oy the doppelgangers!
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Dsell

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #160 on: August 08, 2012, 05:23:24 pm »
0

By "he" you mean "them."
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #161 on: August 08, 2012, 05:26:49 pm »
0

By "he" you mean "them."

By "them" you mean "they" (and by "is" he meant "are"). ;)
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #162 on: August 08, 2012, 05:27:57 pm »
0

It's pretty confusing.

Actually, I have real thoughts on these cards too! Or more specifically, I think Hermit is going to counter cursers and looters quite effectively. It's a bit slow, only trashing one curse at a time, but if it's in hand when an opponent plays a curser, that curse was essentially gained in hand because it can be trashed next turn. I think the sniper-like trashing effect will be pretty strong. Furthermore, Hermits can gain more trashers (Hermits themselves! Or something better) or just gain a bunch of silvers to minimize the damage of the curses.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #163 on: August 08, 2012, 05:28:44 pm »
+1

By "he" you mean "them."

By "them" you mean "they" (and by "is" he meant "are"). ;)

And by "is" you mean "was" (in jo's original post). Nested quotes are hard.  :-[

Edit: And by hard I mean confusing. XD Because we are just getting everything wrong all over the place.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 05:30:42 pm by Dsell »
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #164 on: August 08, 2012, 05:29:06 pm »
+1

I wonder if there'll ever be a card with the text "This card cannot be trashed"

No, I really doubt it; Donald X likes unambiguous rules, and "This card cannot be trashed" is in direct contradiction with a lot of cards which may forcibly trash it. If I play swindler and flip up a card that says "This card cannot be trashed", what happens? Well, you have to read the FAQ...

However, Dark Ages COULD certainly add in an equivalent mechanic; "when you trash this card, put it in your discard pile instead of the trash pile" or something. That way the card is still technically trashed (and you get any on-trash abilities) but you keep it in your deck. Or, the card could say "when you would trash this card, put it in your discard pile instead"; that way, you don't get any on-trash abilities, but it's clear what happens when you try to trash it.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #165 on: August 08, 2012, 05:29:30 pm »
0

Now, I think I know the answer to this, but I just want to make sure - can a Scheme save a Hermit from Madness?
Even though Scheme says "if" rather than "when," it's the same timing as "when" - both cards do something when Hermit is discarded from play. So you pick what order to resolve the effects. If you resolve Hermit first, Scheme will be unable to find Hermit in the trash, due to the lose track rule (which is in the Dark Ages rulebook). If you resolve Scheme first, Hermit will be unable to trash itself, but will still gain you a Madman (there's no "if you do" there).

One aspect I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is that the Hermit could lose itself for the purposes of trashing itself, but not for gaining a Madman. OK I guess the idea is you read both cards (Hermit and Scheme) simultaneously and decide which to carry out first, and if the Hermit is not around when it's time to execute it, you can still remember its instructions and follow the ones you can, fair enough.

Then I'm trying to think if there's any way between the Scheming and the Hermitting that the Hermit could be buried or end up anywhere other than the top of the deck, and if not why it would count as being Lost Track Of, since as I understand it for example you can still Watchtower a card from the top of your deck. But of course we don't know how many other as yet unimaginable on-discard effects that might intervene will emerge in the next week. And I guess Lose Track may just be one those arcane realms kind of like quantum mechanics where at a certain point you have to give up on trying to understand it intuitively, and just trust the math.


I think the instructions on the card are placed in a queue and executed. The 'trash' instruction is an instruction to take a physical card from the location it is expected to be in and place it in the trash. In the example at hand, when the 'trash' command is resolved, the card has already been moved, and cannot be trashed. This is my understanding of the 'lose-track' rule: any instruction which acts on a physical card comes equipped with an expected location for that card, and cannot be carried out unless the card is in that location.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #166 on: August 08, 2012, 05:30:13 pm »
0

Even just sniping the starting Estates seems like a great benefit.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #167 on: August 08, 2012, 05:52:22 pm »
+1

Now, I think I know the answer to this, but I just want to make sure - can a Scheme save a Hermit from Madness?
Even though Scheme says "if" rather than "when," it's the same timing as "when" - both cards do something when Hermit is discarded from play. So you pick what order to resolve the effects. If you resolve Hermit first, Scheme will be unable to find Hermit in the trash, due to the lose track rule (which is in the Dark Ages rulebook). If you resolve Scheme first, Hermit will be unable to trash itself, but will still gain you a Madman (there's no "if you do" there).


This ruling surprised me a bit and I've been puzzling over it all day (I know, get a life, really.) Of course it will be nice to see the legendary and elusive Lose Track rule at last set down in black and blue. My impression is that so far it has mostly referred to one card losing track of another (Throne Room loses Mining Village, Watchtower loses Border Village, etc.) but apparently here a card can also lose track of itself.

One aspect I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is that the Hermit could lose itself for the purposes of trashing itself, but not for gaining a Madman. OK I guess the idea is you read both cards (Hermit and Scheme) simultaneously and decide which to carry out first, and if the Hermit is not around when it's time to execute it, you can still remember its instructions and follow the ones you can, fair enough.

Then I'm trying to think if there's any way between the Scheming and the Hermitting that the Hermit could be buried or end up anywhere other than the top of the deck, and if not why it would count as being Lost Track Of, since as I understand it for example you can still Watchtower a card from the top of your deck. But of course we don't know how many other as yet unimaginable on-discard effects that might intervene will emerge in the next week. And I guess Lose Track may just be one those arcane realms kind of like quantum mechanics where at a certain point you have to give up on trying to understand it intuitively, and just trust the math.

(Also yes I can see how it must be so annoying when people theorize about the rules without having all the facts, enough to make you wish you'd just shut up in the first place, but hey it's kind of inevitable people will muse and speculate when they're totally excited about something, that's just human nature, there it is what are you going to do.)

A final thought though: even if for lack of 'if you do' we eschew the semantic temptation to read 'trash this and gain a Madman' as one instruction - rather like "stop at the store on the way home and pick up some milk" where the consequentially is implied even if not explicit (though I suppose to a Dominion player one ought really to say "stop at the store on the way home; if you do, pick up some milk") - even granting that logical consistency, separating them and allowing a Madman to materialize ex nihilo does at least seem to belie the expressed thematic concept, that of cards turning into other cards.

Basically, the way I see it is this: You have Scheme and Hermit out, and didn't buy anything. You enter Cleanup, and proceed to discard your inplay cards. More specifically, each card receives the event "Discard this from play". Scheme sees that and says "Hey, pick an in play card to put on top your deck, then discard me." Simultaneously, Hermit says "You didn't buy anything, and you're discarding me from play? Alright, trash me and get a Madman." Since two things are happening at the same time, you choose which one goes first (just the same as you would if multiple Treasuries and Alchemists were going on top your deck at end of turn). So, you choose Scheme first and toss something on top, and then Hermit's effect is still there. The event already happened and you follow through on it. After all, "You didn't buy anything, and you're discarding me from play? Alright, trash me and get a Madman" makes no mention of needing to actually do anything with the Hermit in order to get the Madman; just that it's another thing that happens. So, that's how Scheme/Hermit turns people who get confused by rules into Madmen.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #168 on: August 08, 2012, 06:15:20 pm »
0

Even though Scheme says "if" rather than "when," it's the same timing as "when" - both cards do something when Hermit is discarded from play. So you pick what order to resolve the effects. If you resolve Hermit first, Scheme will be unable to find Hermit in the trash, due to the lose track rule (which is in the Dark Ages rulebook). If you resolve Scheme first, Hermit will be unable to trash itself, but will still gain you a Madman (there's no "if you do" there).
This ruling surprised me a bit and I've been puzzling over it all day (I know, get a life, really.) Of course it will be nice to see the legendary and elusive Lose Track rule at last set down in black and blue. My impression is that so far it has mostly referred to one card losing track of another (Throne Room loses Mining Village, Watchtower loses Border Village, etc.) but apparently here a card can also lose track of itself.
"Lose track" just stops a card from being moved after another card moves it.

If Scheme moves Hermit, then Hermit no longer sees itself where it expected to, and can't move itself. This doesn't prevent anything else from happening, just moving Hermit.

Similarly if Hermit moves itself, then Scheme can no longer find Hermit to move it.

"Lose track" exists because I need to say what to do when a card isn't where it's expected to be, and the answer has to be "you lose track" because in some cases you really do lose track (I think Watchtower / Border Village / Inn is covered in these forums).
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #169 on: August 08, 2012, 06:26:32 pm »
+1

Note Hermit (paraphrase) says "Trash me.  Gain a Madman."  This is similar to Feast, which is why it can be TR/KC'd.  If it said "Trash me.  IF YOU DO, gain a Madman," then the Scheme trick wouldn't work.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #170 on: August 08, 2012, 06:48:33 pm »
+1

Guys, do you think Hermit/Hamlet is going to be the new Mine/Mint or Treasury/Tribute? Or are we saved by the cost difference?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #171 on: August 08, 2012, 06:50:03 pm »
+1

It's kind of ironic that a hermit can become a madman, but a scheming hermit doesn't go mad.  Of course, a scheming hermit produces madmen -- so while he's curiously sane, anybody who listens to him goes crazy.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #172 on: August 08, 2012, 06:53:03 pm »
+1

Guys, do you think Hermit/Hamlet is going to be the new Mine/Mint or Treasury/Tribute? Or are we saved by the cost difference?

I know it's not even that close, but every time someone writes "Madman" I see "Mandarin" and I have NO IDEA WHY.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #173 on: August 08, 2012, 07:14:21 pm »
+1

Guys, do you think Hermit/Hamlet is going to be the new Mine/Mint or Treasury/Tribute? Or are we saved by the cost difference?

Given that soon this will no longer be on iso, we'll be going by the picture, and not be almost-homophonic names, so I doubt even Mine/Mint will continue to be a problem.  Have you any of you confused Mine with Mint on Goko?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #174 on: August 08, 2012, 07:15:35 pm »
+4

Guys, do you think Hermit/Hamlet is going to be the new Mine/Mint or Treasury/Tribute? Or are we saved by the cost difference?

Given that soon this will no longer be on iso, we'll be going by the picture, and not be almost-homophonic names, so I doubt even Mine/Mint will continue to be a problem.  Have you any of you confused Mine with Mint on Goko?

I've confused Mint and Mint in real life games with the actual cards.
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