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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman  (Read 116511 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #200 on: August 09, 2012, 08:10:34 am »
+1

Yeah it occured to me in a moment of fridge brilliance that the discard-filtering-trasher wasn't just a cute new ability but as you say a guided missile for on-trash abilities. Also combos with chancellor! Hooray, I love things that make my favourite under achievers better.

The Chancellor combo definitely makes my day.  Flip your deck, trash what you want.

Opening Chancellor/Hermit would be problematic, though.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #201 on: August 09, 2012, 08:15:12 am »
0

I like Madman's art, but I was hoping for something more simplistic, e.g.,



(Come on, please don't tell me I'm the only one who thought of that upon seeing Madman.)
I actually thought of Mudmen as I played Small World a couple of weeks ago.

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rinkworks

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #202 on: August 09, 2012, 08:26:45 am »
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I'm wondering if the "don't buy anything" penalty of getting a Madman is really all that big of a deal.  Would it feel as much like a penalty if it said, "You may buy a Madman with all of your coins this turn" instead?  Yes, I know the wording of the rule has unworkable loopholes.  My point is that such a turn is rather like outright buying a Madman, rather than getting one as a reward for skipping a purchase.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #203 on: August 09, 2012, 08:33:24 am »
+1

I'm wondering if the "don't buy anything" penalty of getting a Madman is really all that big of a deal.  Would it feel as much like a penalty if it said, "You may buy a Madman with all of your coins this turn" instead?  Yes, I know the wording of the rule has unworkable loopholes.  My point is that such a turn is rather like outright buying a Madman, rather than getting one as a reward for skipping a purchase.

Hermit/Tactician - you won't be buying anything the turn you discard for Tactician (most of the time) anyway.
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zahlman

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #204 on: August 09, 2012, 11:11:10 am »
0

I'm wondering if the "don't buy anything" penalty of getting a Madman is really all that big of a deal.  Would it feel as much like a penalty if it said, "You may buy a Madman with all of your coins this turn" instead?  Yes, I know the wording of the rule has unworkable loopholes.  My point is that such a turn is rather like outright buying a Madman, rather than getting one as a reward for skipping a purchase.

Yeah, well, sometimes you buy an Apothecary with $<somewhat disturbingly large number>P and no +Buy, too.

(As written, it seems you can't get around Hermit with Black Market, the way you can with Tactician...)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:12:34 am by zahlman »
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joel88s

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #205 on: August 09, 2012, 11:51:49 am »
+1

Note Hermit (paraphrase) says "Trash me.  Gain a Madman."  This is similar to Feast, which is why it can be TR/KC'd.  If it said "Trash me.  IF YOU DO, gain a Madman," then the Scheme trick wouldn't work.

Thanks all for the answers on this. This is exactly the issue, how you parse 'trash this and gain a Madman". What you and others are saying when you equate it to 'Trash me. Gain a Madman.', and confirmed by Him Who Knows All, is that we read this as two totally separate instructions, resolved independently and sequentially. And I understand that this literal, flow-chart mode is the one we use for Dominion cards, and that by convention the phrase 'if you do' is required to indicate causality or consequentially. And that's totally fine, and actually quite clear.

What I was merely suggesting, or really just musing, is that there can also be other ways of parsing a phrase. So in this case I would submit that in a sematic sense, meaning in the way we tend to understand English in everyday use, one could argue that 'trash this and gain a Madman' does imply at least some level of consequentially; more to my ear than something like Jack of All Trades's "Gain a silver. Draw till you have five cards. Go make a sandwich. etc." Again compare my example "stop by the store on the way home and pick up some milk": the connectedness of the two commands is obviously implied, and if I came home saying the (theoretically one and only) store was closed, I don't think you would then ask me why I didn't still perform the second command and bring home milk.

Further one could maybe argue that in a thematic mode, 'trash this and gain a Madman' really means the Hermit becomes a Madman, in the manner Donald X. himself so eloquently decribes, even though yes I know it doesn't say that explicitly. In fact, at the risk of going all Clintonian, it seems to me that in the flow-chart mode vs. the semantic/thematic mode of interpretation the meaning of the word 'and' is actually slightly different! In short, mathematically it of course implies no relationship between two events, but in colloquial usage maybe it sometimes does.

Again though this is just reflection, and not at all to dispute the primacy of the flow-chart mode for this and other Dominion cards, and its likely necessity to avoid total craziness and paradox in certain situations.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 11:53:46 am by joel88s »
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #206 on: August 09, 2012, 11:58:57 am »
+1

And this is why new players should avoid Hinterlands and Dark Ages at ALL COSTS.  Particularly the combination of the two.
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zahlman

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #207 on: August 09, 2012, 12:20:13 pm »
0

What I was merely suggesting, or really just musing, is that there can also be other ways of parsing a phrase. So in this case I would submit that in a sematic sense, meaning in the way we tend to understand English in everyday use, one could argue that 'trash this and gain a Madman' does imply at least some level of consequentially; more to my ear than something like Jack of All Trades's "Gain a silver. Draw till you have five cards. Go make a sandwich. etc." Again compare my example "stop by the store on the way home and pick up some milk": the connectedness of the two commands is obviously implied, and if I came home saying the (theoretically one and only) store was closed, I don't think you would then ask me why I didn't still perform the second command and bring home milk.

But you did perform the second command. You did as much milk-bringing-home as you could.
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joel88s

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #208 on: August 09, 2012, 04:48:26 pm »
0

What I was merely suggesting, or really just musing, is that there can also be other ways of parsing a phrase. So in this case I would submit that in a sematic sense, meaning in the way we tend to understand English in everyday use, one could argue that 'trash this and gain a Madman' does imply at least some level of consequentially; more to my ear than something like Jack of All Trades's "Gain a silver. Draw till you have five cards. Go make a sandwich. etc." Again compare my example "stop by the store on the way home and pick up some milk": the connectedness of the two commands is obviously implied, and if I came home saying the (theoretically one and only) store was closed, I don't think you would then ask me why I didn't still perform the second command and bring home milk.

But you did perform the second command. You did as much milk-bringing-home as you could.

Certainly true, or more precisely I tried and failed. But I failed in the second because I failed in the first. My analogy is just that in that phraseology, in that instance anyway, we understand implicitly that the second can only follow from the first.   
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ftl

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #209 on: August 09, 2012, 05:00:14 pm »
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Well, but we do that not just because of the phrasing, but because of the content - because we know you get milk at a store, and so if the store is closed you can't get milk.

Compare "stop by the store on the way home and pick up some milk" with "stop by the the store on the way home and stop by the gas station". Same structure, but now it is obvious that "stop by the gas station" and "stop by the store" are independent and are just two things that you need to do.
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joel88s

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #210 on: August 09, 2012, 05:46:05 pm »
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Precisely! You can't tell purely from the structure which it is, you have to interpret the content. We know milk comes from the store, so if you can't go to the store you can't get milk. And we could say likewise 'we know Madmen come from trashed Hermits, so if you can't trash the Hermit you can't get the Madman.' Or we can say the trashing and gaining are like stopping and the gas station and stopping at the store, independent. I guess we choose the more literal reading, in general because with card rules it's safer and more sensible not to start making intuitive inferences - ultimately we don't understand the relationship of Hermits and Madmen as well as we do that of grocery stores and milk - and of course in particular here because we have an official ruling. :)

EDIT:... or maybe more precisely because we have an accepted code for conditionality, 'if you do', so on principle we don't accept conditionality without it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 05:54:17 pm by joel88s »
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jotheonah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #211 on: August 09, 2012, 05:55:11 pm »
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Isn't this exactly what the famous Blue Dog debate was about?
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clb

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #212 on: August 09, 2012, 06:06:41 pm »
0

Precisely! You can't tell purely from the structure which it is, you have to interpret the content. We know milk comes from the store, so if you can't go to the store you can't get milk. And we could say likewise 'we know Madmen come from trashed Hermits, so if you can't trash the Hermit you can't get the Madman.' Or we can say the trashing and gaining are like stopping and the gas station and stopping at the store, independent. I guess we choose the more literal reading, in general because with card rules it's safer and more sensible not to start making intuitive inferences - ultimately we don't understand the relationship of Hermits and Madmen as well as we do that of grocery stores and milk - and of course in particular here because we have an official ruling. :)

EDIT:... or maybe more precisely because we have an accepted code for conditionality, 'if you do', so on principle we don't accept conditionality without it.

Or cows, sheep, goats, soy beans, or other more adventurous sources... Stores are the easy way to get milk, as trashing hermits is the easy way to get madmen, but if you want it bad enough, there are alternate routes.
I just thought I would throw that out there.
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joel88s

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #213 on: August 09, 2012, 06:12:21 pm »
0

No question, this was a strictly urban analogy!
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joel88s

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #214 on: August 09, 2012, 06:27:04 pm »
+1

Isn't this exactly what the famous Blue Dog debate was about?

Oh God help us all.
Funny, clb just referred to that over on the Preview #4 board - not sure if that's a coincidence.
I think that was more about sequence of events, while this is more about conditionality. But if what you really mean is that it's equally annoying, you're probably right about that!
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 06:28:33 pm by joel88s »
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #215 on: August 09, 2012, 09:32:55 pm »
0

I really hope that there's another card that turns into Madman. Ruins are cool because 3 different cards hand them out, spoils are cool because 3 different cards can get you them. But the idea that there's a stack of cards just for one other stack of cards to turn into seems like a wasted opportunity.

Fingers crossed you can make other cards go mad
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #216 on: August 09, 2012, 09:42:35 pm »
+1

I really hope that there's another card that turns into Madman. Ruins are cool because 3 different cards hand them out, spoils are cool because 3 different cards can get you them. But the idea that there's a stack of cards just for one other stack of cards to turn into seems like a wasted opportunity.

Fingers crossed you can make other cards go mad

I wouldn't get your hopes up. I think Donald would have mentioned if that were the case. That being said, I like the fact that Madman can only be obtained through one other card. I was hoping that there were going to be more than two cards like that. But Spoils has definitely mollified me. It's a good compromise.

I am hoping that the final non-kingdom card isn't a one-shot, but I'll be perfectly happy if it is.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #217 on: August 09, 2012, 10:23:35 pm »
+1

I really hope that there's another card that turns into Madman. Ruins are cool because 3 different cards hand them out, spoils are cool because 3 different cards can get you them. But the idea that there's a stack of cards just for one other stack of cards to turn into seems like a wasted opportunity.

Fingers crossed you can make other cards go mad

I wouldn't get your hopes up. I think Donald would have mentioned if that were the case. That being said, I like the fact that Madman can only be obtained through one other card. I was hoping that there were going to be more than two cards like that. But Spoils has definitely mollified me. It's a good compromise.

I am hoping that the final non-kingdom card isn't a one-shot, but I'll be perfectly happy if it is.

This still leaves 21 Kingdom cards with mechanics that we have absolutely no inkling of.
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jotheonah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #218 on: August 09, 2012, 10:33:04 pm »
0

FWIW, I was expecting the upgradable cards to be more like a more complex City - or like the heroes in THunderstone. So that's still a possibility.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #219 on: August 10, 2012, 01:46:54 am »
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FWIW, I was expecting the upgradable cards to be more like a more complex City - or like the heroes in THunderstone. So that's still a possibility.

A card like that would be cool. How would you upgrade them? It could count the trash and then level up at some point, but stopping to count how many cards are in the trash in annoying... Hmmm
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rinkworks

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #220 on: August 10, 2012, 09:02:38 am »
+2

FWIW, I was expecting the upgradable cards to be more like a more complex City - or like the heroes in THunderstone. So that's still a possibility.

A card like that would be cool. How would you upgrade them? It could count the trash and then level up at some point, but stopping to count how many cards are in the trash in annoying... Hmmm

I'm expecting ALL of Guilds to be a sequential upgrading chain of 13 or so cards.  You're only allowed to buy one of them, and then you switch them out all the way up to the top.

That would be a good expansion, right?
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CaptainNevada

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #221 on: August 10, 2012, 08:43:13 pm »
0

Actually, I was thinking that while Dark Ages is a counterpoint to both Prosperity (Dark Ages seems to have a poverty theme) and Hinterlands (Trashing verses Gaining) Guilds would be be a counterpoint to Cornucopia (reward you for multiple copies of a card instead of a variety of cards).  Guilds would set standards and prices of goods and services.  So the initial cost might be higher but the rewards of multiple cards (representing more control over a specific good or service) might get better. 

Treasure map needs two copies of it to pull off.  Conspirators chain well but the rewards after they kick in are consistent.  A second Fools Gold is much better than the first. 

Funny Hat Guild ($4 - Action)
+1 Action 
+1 Card for Each Copy of Funny Hat Guild in Play

FWIW, I was expecting the upgradable cards to be more like a more complex City - or like the heroes in THunderstone. So that's still a possibility.

A card like that would be cool. How would you upgrade them? It could count the trash and then level up at some point, but stopping to count how many cards are in the trash in annoying... Hmmm

I'm expecting ALL of Guilds to be a sequential upgrading chain of 13 or so cards.  You're only allowed to buy one of them, and then you switch them out all the way up to the top.

That would be a good expansion, right?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #222 on: August 10, 2012, 09:32:42 pm »
+2

FWIW, I was expecting the upgradable cards to be more like a more complex City - or like the heroes in THunderstone. So that's still a possibility.

A card like that would be cool. How would you upgrade them? It could count the trash and then level up at some point, but stopping to count how many cards are in the trash in annoying... Hmmm

I'm expecting ALL of Guilds to be a sequential upgrading chain of 13 or so cards.  You're only allowed to buy one of them, and then you switch them out all the way up to the top.

That would be a good expansion, right?

+1 for sarcasm. That's sarcasm, right? If not, I'm retroactively removing my +1.
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zahlman

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #223 on: August 11, 2012, 04:34:52 am »
0

Funny Hat Guild ($4 - Action)
+1 Action 
+1 Card for Each Copy of Funny Hat Guild in Play

I think something similar got submitted to the potion-cost contest...
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #3: Squire, Hermit, Madman
« Reply #224 on: August 12, 2012, 01:12:27 pm »
+1

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Mint/Squire seems like a good opening. You can get your mint economy going quite quickly with the silver gain, and unless your shuffle luck and you can usually get another squire (or even another silver) with the $1. In games with shelters the necropolis will help accelerate this process.
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