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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market  (Read 184399 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #300 on: August 07, 2012, 08:36:54 pm »
0

Man, I think the mere presence of looters in a kingdom will make Golem and HP worthless.  Just a couple of ruins in your deck basically causes these cards to completely dud quite often.  Once it happens a few times, there will be a snowball effect as the looting player keeps adding ruins to the Golem (or HP) deck.  I guess with 200 different types of cards, it's inevitable that the presence of a few cards could render a few other cards obsolete.  (Can anybody think of an example where that happens already? Lighthouse vs Sea Hag maybe?)

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong, and the effect of ruins won't be as significant as it seems.  Or maybe there are other DA cards that help the situation, if they're available, such as ones that specialize in hunting for and trashing ruins.  Or maybe there's a +actions card which trashes ruins.

You're overreacting, I think. First, at WORST, Hunting Party will be a $5 Lab. Lab is already a $5 card. It'll ruin the traditional Hunting Party DECK (1 silver, 1 gold, 1 terminal silver, lots of HPs) but HP as a card will still be fine even in the presence of ruins. Whenever you get a Laboratory in a ruins-infested deck, HP would probably work no worse. It'll still skip over coppers and estates pretty well.

Likewise, you won't be able to make a "Golem Deck" where you get one or two actions and lots of golems. But there's nothing wrong with using Golem in a more standard way, as an engine component - it's still basically equivalent to Village+Lab (Draw 2 cards which are guaranteed to be actions and play them immediately) with, admittedly, a little less control. You'll want to play a Village before the golem because you won't have as much control over the outcome. But it'll still be playable. Perhaps a little too expensive, but still  reasonable.

They won't be worthless. They'll be weaker, but by no means worthless.

(And, BTW, Masquerade does shut down, like, Sea Hag or something. It's not unprecedented.)

Masquerade shuts down Torturer.  "Oh?  I can take a Curse in hand?  Why thank you!  Just the perfect thing to pass to you via Masquerade!"
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #301 on: August 07, 2012, 08:37:38 pm »
+1

Also - what the hell is on the Cultist's face?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #302 on: August 07, 2012, 09:22:09 pm »
0

Man, I think the mere presence of looters in a kingdom will make Golem and HP worthless.  Just a couple of ruins in your deck basically causes these cards to completely dud quite often.  Once it happens a few times, there will be a snowball effect as the looting player keeps adding ruins to the Golem (or HP) deck.  I guess with 200 different types of cards, it's inevitable that the presence of a few cards could render a few other cards obsolete.  (Can anybody think of an example where that happens already? Lighthouse vs Sea Hag maybe?)

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong, and the effect of ruins won't be as significant as it seems.  Or maybe there are other DA cards that help the situation, if they're available, such as ones that specialize in hunting for and trashing ruins.  Or maybe there's a +actions card which trashes ruins.

You're overreacting, I think. First, at WORST, Hunting Party will be a $5 Lab. Lab is already a $5 card. It'll ruin the traditional Hunting Party DECK (1 silver, 1 gold, 1 terminal silver, lots of HPs) but HP as a card will still be fine even in the presence of ruins. Whenever you get a Laboratory in a ruins-infested deck, HP would probably work no worse. It'll still skip over coppers and estates pretty well.

Likewise, you won't be able to make a "Golem Deck" where you get one or two actions and lots of golems. But there's nothing wrong with using Golem in a more standard way, as an engine component - it's still basically equivalent to Village+Lab (Draw 2 cards which are guaranteed to be actions and play them immediately) with, admittedly, a little less control. You'll want to play a Village before the golem because you won't have as much control over the outcome. But it'll still be playable. Perhaps a little too expensive, but still  reasonable.

They won't be worthless. They'll be weaker, but by no means worthless.

(And, BTW, Masquerade does shut down, like, Sea Hag or something. It's not unprecedented.)

Masquerade shuts down Torturer.  "Oh?  I can take a Curse in hand?  Why thank you!  Just the perfect thing to pass to you via Masquerade!"
Not in my experience. Since Masquerade trashes fairly slowly, a Torturer chain increases your deck size a lot faster than Masquerade can trim it. That's bad news, because the Torturer-chaining player will have a Masquerade too, and end up with a nice trim deck and a draw engine.

Masquerade does make Torturer less scary, but it definitely doesn't make it ignorable.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #303 on: August 07, 2012, 09:31:27 pm »
0

Man, I think the mere presence of looters in a kingdom will make Golem and HP worthless.  Just a couple of ruins in your deck basically causes these cards to completely dud quite often.  Once it happens a few times, there will be a snowball effect as the looting player keeps adding ruins to the Golem (or HP) deck.  I guess with 200 different types of cards, it's inevitable that the presence of a few cards could render a few other cards obsolete.  (Can anybody think of an example where that happens already? Lighthouse vs Sea Hag maybe?)

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong, and the effect of ruins won't be as significant as it seems.  Or maybe there are other DA cards that help the situation, if they're available, such as ones that specialize in hunting for and trashing ruins.  Or maybe there's a +actions card which trashes ruins.

You're overreacting, I think. First, at WORST, Hunting Party will be a $5 Lab. Lab is already a $5 card. It'll ruin the traditional Hunting Party DECK (1 silver, 1 gold, 1 terminal silver, lots of HPs) but HP as a card will still be fine even in the presence of ruins. Whenever you get a Laboratory in a ruins-infested deck, HP would probably work no worse. It'll still skip over coppers and estates pretty well.

Likewise, you won't be able to make a "Golem Deck" where you get one or two actions and lots of golems. But there's nothing wrong with using Golem in a more standard way, as an engine component - it's still basically equivalent to Village+Lab (Draw 2 cards which are guaranteed to be actions and play them immediately) with, admittedly, a little less control. You'll want to play a Village before the golem because you won't have as much control over the outcome. But it'll still be playable. Perhaps a little too expensive, but still  reasonable.

They won't be worthless. They'll be weaker, but by no means worthless.

(And, BTW, Masquerade does shut down, like, Sea Hag or something. It's not unprecedented.)

Masquerade shuts down Torturer.  "Oh?  I can take a Curse in hand?  Why thank you!  Just the perfect thing to pass to you via Masquerade!"
Not in my experience. Since Masquerade trashes fairly slowly, a Torturer chain increases your deck size a lot faster than Masquerade can trim it. That's bad news, because the Torturer-chaining player will have a Masquerade too, and end up with a nice trim deck and a draw engine.

Masquerade does make Torturer less scary, but it definitely doesn't make it ignorable.

You misunderstand.  If I have a Masquerade in hand when you play Torturer, I'm just going to take the Curse to pass to you.  Obviously if the Masquerade wasn't in my hand, I'd probably seriously consider the discard option.  And at the same time I'd probably be getting Torturers of my own.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #304 on: August 07, 2012, 09:47:27 pm »
0

My speculation:
Ruined Chapel: Trash a card

Exactly what I was thinking. It can marginally counteract the problem of having heaps of ruins. But if you use your only action to trash a single card things are pretty dire.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #305 on: August 07, 2012, 09:59:24 pm »
0

Also - what the hell is on the Cultist's face?

A mask, presumably.
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engineer

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #306 on: August 07, 2012, 10:46:52 pm »
0

You misunderstand.  If I have a Masquerade in hand when you play Torturer, I'm just going to take the Curse to pass to you.  Obviously if the Masquerade wasn't in my hand, I'd probably seriously consider the discard option.  And at the same time I'd probably be getting Torturers of my own.

But the whole power of the torturer chain is that multiple torturers get played each turn.  Sure, you take the first curse, but what about the second?  And the third time around, do you discard the first two curses, or take a third curse so you can pass one of them away with masq?

Also, all those dominant relationships (ooh -- another one: library vs. ghost ship!  That's a hard counter) are dependent on actually having the counter card in hand.  Thus, the countered card could still be useful (though perhaps unadvisable).  With cultist vs. golem, the cultist can wreck the golem deck whenever it's played, no matter the opponent's hand.

Anyway, I'll cop to the fact that I may be overreacting.  But if a couple ruins make a golem whiff, that does definitely handicap the golem deck.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #307 on: August 08, 2012, 12:35:55 am »
0

Okay, the problem with Feodum is that you need 9 Silvers to get it up to Duchy level, which is always a good benchmark.

9 Silvers may be no problem with Trader, which can get you that by trashing a Platinum, but with cards that just gain one Silver at a time, it's going to be a real task.

And if we look at Jack, it's very good at getting Provinces, so why would you want to go full throttle on Feoda?

I don't like that it's specific to Silver.
It seems like a missed opportunity to me.
The card from the fan contest which gives 1 VP for every separate set of Copper-Silver-Gold seems more fun to me and more useful.

While 1VP for every set of copper-silver-gold seems cute, I think it will play very similarly to just counting gold. And as donald says, counting gold is a bit too boring because gold is awesome.

I think it'll be interesting to see a card that wants you to megadose on silvers. I think it has the chance to play very differently to gardens/silk road. Because your economy wont be completely trashed if you've got a boat load of silvers once you've emptied the feoda you can compete for the remaining provinces, as opposed to 3-pilling something small.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #308 on: August 08, 2012, 01:06:50 am »
+1

Hi, been lurking, just getting into Dominion last couple of months, and perhaps someone else mentioned this:

If Shelters are a replacement for Estates, and everyone's starting deck has 3 Estates, and Shelters protect you from Looters:

Then in a game with Cultists everyone starts with 3 anti-Looter cards in their deck.  Wouldn't that make Cultists a lot weaker?
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jonts26

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #309 on: August 08, 2012, 01:09:46 am »
0

Hi, been lurking, just getting into Dominion last couple of months, and perhaps someone else mentioned this:

If Shelters are a replacement for Estates, and everyone's starting deck has 3 Estates, and Shelters protect you from Looters:

Then in a game with Cultists everyone starts with 3 anti-Looter cards in their deck.  Wouldn't that make Cultists a lot weaker?

Everything about shelters is mostly speculation. All we know is that shelters replace starting estates. And we don't even know if they replace all of them. Or if they really protect against ruins, or at least in the way we think. So, either join in the baseless speculation or just sit tight. We'll know either way soon enough.
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sherwinpr

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #310 on: August 08, 2012, 01:13:10 am »
0

50 are Ruins. It's likely that these too have randomizer cards, just as every other supply pile in the game.

It's not true that every supply pile has a randomizer card:

  • Potion from Alchemy
  • Colony and Platinum from Prosperity
  • The base cards from Intrigue
  • The base cards from Base Cards

Although the last two are functionally equivalent to the base cards from Dominion, so they don't really count.  It's also worth noting that the prize cards don't have randomizers, although they aren't supply cards.
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dor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #311 on: August 08, 2012, 01:42:16 am »
0

50 are Ruins. It's likely that these too have randomizer cards, just as every other supply pile in the game.

It's not true that every supply pile has a randomizer card:

  • Potion from Alchemy
  • Colony and Platinum from Prosperity
  • The base cards from Intrigue
  • The base cards from Base Cards

Although the last two are functionally equivalent to the base cards from Dominion, so they don't really count.  It's also worth noting that the prize cards don't have randomizers, although they aren't supply cards.

Potions, Platinums and the base cards do have randomizers, but not for randomizing. I believe their purpose is to lay face down at the bottom of their supply piles so it would be clearer how many piles have ended.

Prizes don't have those since they are not in the supply.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #312 on: August 08, 2012, 02:15:15 am »
0

Potions, Platinums and the base cards do have randomizers, but not for randomizing. I believe their purpose is to lay face down at the bottom of their supply piles so it would be clearer how many piles have ended.

Or maybe it's just easier to print them that way.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
« Reply #313 on: August 08, 2012, 02:18:34 am »
0

    50 are Ruins. It's likely that these too have randomizer cards, just as every other supply pile in the game.

    It's not true that every supply pile has a randomizer card:

    • Potion from Alchemy
    • Colony and Platinum from Prosperity
    • The base cards from Intrigue
    • The base cards from Base Cards

    Although the last two are functionally equivalent to the base cards from Dominion, so they don't really count.  It's also worth noting that the prize cards don't have randomizers, although they aren't supply cards.
    Fixed that for you.

    In fact, at least in the copy I have, the Province, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Silver, Copper and Curse piles all have randomizer cards. You need to be careful not to start with 13 Provinces. Don't know why it keeps putting that tag here ->[/list]
    « Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 02:20:11 am by Davio »
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    Asklepios

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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #314 on: August 08, 2012, 03:46:40 am »
    0

    Whoever suggested Ruined Black Market (which only and always contains Scout) already won this game.

    Thanks! :) But I still maintain that Ruined Chancellor was funnier. Seriously, I was drinking tea at the time, and it squirted out of my nose.
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    Asklepios

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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #315 on: August 08, 2012, 03:58:46 am »
    0

    Re: Cultist chaining, its no better than Familiar chaining really. You get the +2 cards instead of +1 card, but the additional "cursing" (or ruinating, I should say, to coin a word) action is conditional on drawing another Cultists.

    BUT its a lot less disruptive to your tempo to seek Cultist than Familiar, as $5 is easier to get to than $3P, what with Horse Traders etc, and $5 remains more useful in the later game than $3P. Familiar is very often bypassable on a fast Kingdom - while they arse around getting the potion then the familiar, you can Hunting Party-Gold or FishingVillage-Wharf or whatever to victory. In contrast, a $5 Cultist disrupts your tempo a lot less, and has the side effect of inflicting diversity in an opposing deck, which is weak if they're using fairgrounds or menageries, but strong if they're playing Hunting Parties. In fact, I'm confident that a Cultist or two will demolish a traditional Hunting Party rush deck.

    Then, of course, there's the trashing effect, which is an awesome little bonus. One of the main worries with Familiar is that once the curses run out, you're left with a card that does nothing. Sure, if you draw it with an action in hand, you can cycle it, but if you draw it on a terminal draw, its a dead card. Familiar really benefits from a trash-for-benefit buddy to work with. Cultist, otoh, needs just any trashing card to make it trash-for-benefit, and given that you'll likely want the trasher to get rid of ruins anyway, that makes Cultist + Any Trasher a fantastic combo.

    On the downside, Cultist is an attack that works strongly in engines, I think, but the very nature of its attack will make engine building harder (a bit like Mountebank or Witch, in that sense). That makes me think that 2 Cultists + BM might be better than trying to build Cultists + most Engines, unless there's Chapels and Fishing Villages and Wharfs and other super strong stuff like that.

    Overall I'd rate Cultist as a top tier card, almost up there with the other strong $5 attacks, like Mountebank and Witch. Well, perhaps equal with Witch, and marginally worse than Mountebank. But definitely better than Saboteur, and superior to Familiar by virtue of its cost and built in trash for benefit.
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    Thisisnotasmile

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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #316 on: August 08, 2012, 04:05:50 am »
    +1

    Shelter (replaces starting estates in a game with a looter):
    Victory Reaction Cost 2
    1 VP
    Reveal to be unaffected by a looter.

    This seems obsolete to me. Why not just write "Each other player may reveal an Estate from his hand. If he doesn’t..." on each of the Looters and save <however many Estates there are> cards for better uses?


    Also, I've been staying out of these discussions as much as possible, but since I'm here now, there was a short discussion a few pages back about the order of operations if you upgrade a Cultist into a Gold with Watchtower in hand. Can you top-deck the gold before you draw 3 or not? My take is this, but I'd like to hear an official answer:

    You trash the Cultist with the Upgrade. There are now two things waiting to happen; Gain a card costing 6 AND draw 3. Active player gets to choose which goes first. If they choose to gain Gold first, he may reveal a Watchtower and top-deck it immediately, and then draw it. If he chooses to draw first then he won't get the Gold until afterwards.

    The way I see it, the player can choose which way it happens.
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    rspeer

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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #317 on: August 08, 2012, 04:38:27 am »
    +1

    Ruined Wishing Well
    Name a card. Reveal the top card of your deck.
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    Whitecrow

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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #318 on: August 08, 2012, 04:40:24 am »
    0

    My guess on ruins: (serious)

    Ruined Village : +2 actions
    Ruined Smithy : +2 cards
    Ruined Mine : Gain a silver
    Ruined Estate : Trash this card. Gain an Estate.

    All cards are from the original set.
    They should do something good however little it does. So +1 action or +1 card is pointless.
    I think above are just enough for $0 cards like copper.
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    Thisisnotasmile

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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #319 on: August 08, 2012, 04:41:52 am »
    0

    Oh and Develop's not so bad afterall:

    Develop Feodum into Silver/Graverobber on deck. Gain 3 Silvers.

    Next turn graverob your Feodum back (if it's still there) and use your Silver + whatever else (probably more Silvers) to buy another Feodum/Silver.

    Yeah, it's a three card combo but so what.
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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #320 on: August 08, 2012, 05:03:24 am »
    0

    Also, I've been staying out of these discussions as much as possible, but since I'm here now, there was a short discussion a few pages back about the order of operations if you upgrade a Cultist into a Gold with Watchtower in hand. Can you top-deck the gold before you draw 3 or not? My take is this, but I'd like to hear an official answer:

    I think Donald's weighed in on this; you get the cards first.

    You do what upgrade says in order. First, you trash a cultist - but wait! When the cultist is trashed you draw 3 cards! - and then you gain a gold, which you can top-deck. You don't get to wait for something else to happen.

    First you trash, then you gain, and the +3 cards happens when you trash, not when you gain.
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    Asklepios

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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #321 on: August 08, 2012, 07:12:36 am »
    0

    Also, I've been staying out of these discussions as much as possible, but since I'm here now, there was a short discussion a few pages back about the order of operations if you upgrade a Cultist into a Gold with Watchtower in hand. Can you top-deck the gold before you draw 3 or not? My take is this, but I'd like to hear an official answer:

    I think Donald's weighed in on this; you get the cards first.

    You do what upgrade says in order. First, you trash a cultist - but wait! When the cultist is trashed you draw 3 cards! - and then you gain a gold, which you can top-deck. You don't get to wait for something else to happen.

    First you trash, then you gain, and the +3 cards happens when you trash, not when you gain.

    (insert blue dog comment here)
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    Nimmy

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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #322 on: August 08, 2012, 07:14:11 am »
    +2

    Ruined Navigator:

    Look at the top 4 Ruinses on the Ruins pile.
    Either put all of them to the bottom of the pile in any order, or put them back on top of the pile in any order.



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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #323 on: August 08, 2012, 07:40:34 am »
    0

    Ruined Workshop:
    Gain a card costing up to 0

    Ruined Warehouse:
    +1 card, discard 1 card

    Ruined Chancellor:
    +1$
    when you play this, you may discard your discard pile. (confusion card indeed)
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    Thisisnotasmile

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    Re: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market
    « Reply #324 on: August 08, 2012, 08:02:16 am »
    +1

    Ruined Workshop:
    Gain a card costing up to 0

    Ruined Warehouse:
    +1 card, discard 1 card

    Ruined Chancellor:
    +1$
    when you play this, you may discard your discard pile. (confusion card indeed)

    Ruined Chancellor is pretty good with Tunnel.
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