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[jonts26]

But the ruins do partially explain why we need 500 cards for only  35 kingdom cards. Still 100 MIA, though.

Well, some of those 100 are victory cards, which get 12 instead of 10.

Well even if the other 30 kingdom cards are all victory types, we are still missing a ton.

[jonts26]

Here it is:

This is the 7th addition to the game of Dominion. It is 500 cards but is not a standalone. It adds 35 new Kingdom cards to Dominion, plus new bad cards you give to other players (Ruins), new cards to replace starting Estates (Shelters), and cards you can only get via specific other cards.

Also this:

There are cards that do something when trashed, cards that care about the trash, cards that upgrade themselves, and ways to upgrade other cards.

So this seems like you trash a card to gain a better card that cant be gotten any other way. A few of those cards would certainly help to round out the 500.

[clb]

But the ruins do partially explain why we need 500 cards for only  35 kingdom cards. Still 100 MIA, though.

Well, some of those 100 are victory cards, which get 12 instead of 10.

Well even if the other 30 kingdom cards are all victory types, we are still missing a ton.

Which is what I think ties into the idea of cards being gained only through other cards - I think there are piles of 10 cards (or some other number) that, like prizes, are not part of the kingdom, but can be gained by specific in-game actions; trash a squire, gain a knight; trash a knight, gain a crusader, etc - knights and crusaders cannot be bought and would have a price (0?) that excludes them or includes them, at Donald's perogative, in grave-robber-like actions.

ninja'ed by Jonts. oh well.

[sherwinpr]

But the ruins do partially explain why we need 500 cards for only  35 kingdom cards. Still 100 MIA, though.

Well, some of those 100 are victory cards, which get 12 instead of 10.

Well even if the other 30 kingdom cards are all victory types, we are still missing a ton.

Which is what I think ties into the idea of cards being gained only through other cards - I think there are piles of 10 cards (or some other number) that, like prizes, are not part of the kingdom, but can be gained byt specific in-game actions; trash a squire, gain a knight; trash a knight, gain a crusader, etc - knights and crusaders cannot be bought and would have a price (0?) that excludes them or includes them, at Donald's perogative, in grave-robber-like actions.

ninja'ed by Jonts. oh well.

Although it's not really adding much to the discussion there will probably also be at least 35 randomizer cards, at 5 victory cards in the set (and I won't be surprised if there are no others, but 5 seems like a round number), that makes exactly 55 cards MIA.

[jonts26]

I don't remember from other sets, but do blank cards count towards the total?

[WanderingWinder]

But the ruins do partially explain why we need 500 cards for only  35 kingdom cards. Still 100 MIA, though.

Well, some of those 100 are victory cards, which get 12 instead of 10.

Well even if the other 30 kingdom cards are all victory types, we are still missing a ton.

Hence the "some".

[bedlam]

Probably the "cards that can only be gained via other specific cards" refers to the looters handing out the ruins, right?

[WanderingWinder]

Probably the "cards that can only be gained via other specific cards" refers to the looters handing out the ruins, right?

Except that the ruins are listed separately in the same list, with the whole 'and' thing implying that they are different.

But I had the same thought at first.

[jonts26]

Probably the "cards that can only be gained via other specific cards" refers to the looters handing out the ruins, right?

Unlikely since you are free to just buy them.

[DG]

The ruins are quite interesting and I wouldn't make any assumptions yet about which would be the worst ruin. If we compare ruins with curses then +1 action or +1 card doesn't seem so bad at all and might allow you to sustain a deck with ruins. A major difficulty could be building a deck that can progress despite ruins when you don't know which specific ruins will be gained. Very simple or very complex decks might be the best, with anything in between getting into a mess.

There's also a consideration about cultists and villages. Cultists look as if they can be played without villages, however you would rarely have spare actions to to get any value from your own ruins so the ruins would be most detrimental.

Ruined cellar (discard 1, draw 1), Ruined estate (1 vp for 2 of them), ruined mine (add a copper to your hand) could all be possible ruins.

[CaptainNevada]

So, is the Cultist play another Cultist a one-time-only chance or can you go back to it if you draw another Cultist later on in your turn?  Mining Village is phrased so you must trash it immediately to gain the benefit of the $ (and yes, I except there might be some neat Mining Village / Graverobber tricks as Mining Village gives the draw and actions no matter what; I predict we will see a bit of cycling them in and out of the Trash on some boards). 

Cultist doesn't seem to have a time restriction on it though.  Possibilities?

[eHalcyon]

So, is the Cultist play another Cultist a one-time-only chance or can you go back to it if you draw another Cultist later on in your turn?  Mining Village is phrased so you must trash it immediately to gain the benefit of the $ (and yes, I except there might be some neat Mining Village / Graverobber tricks as Mining Village gives the draw and actions no matter what; I predict we will see a bit of cycling them in and out of the Trash on some boards). 

Cultist doesn't seem to have a time restriction on it though.  Possibilities?

Pretty sure it's restricted to immediately after you play the first Cultist.

You play Cultist.  You carry out everything you can on the card:

- draw 2
- distribute ruins
- play another Cultist, if you want to

If you don't do the third thing, then it's over and you continue with your turn as normal.

[engineer]

SO you can actually buy ruins if you want, right? Like in a Goons or Garden deck? Could this make Goons-Scrying Pool viable?

 Ruins are Actions so they're much worse than curses in any of the following decks: Golem, Farming Village, Hunting Party (imagine having 5 different kinds of ruins thrown at your HP deck!)

Man, I think the mere presence of looters in a kingdom will make Golem and HP worthless.  Just a couple of ruins in your deck basically causes these cards to completely dud quite often.  Once it happens a few times, there will be a snowball effect as the looting player keeps adding ruins to the Golem (or HP) deck.  I guess with 200 different types of cards, it's inevitable that the presence of a few cards could render a few other cards obsolete.  (Can anybody think of an example where that happens already? Lighthouse vs Sea Hag maybe?)

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong, and the effect of ruins won't be as significant as it seems.  Or maybe there are other DA cards that help the situation, if they're available, such as ones that specialize in hunting for and trashing ruins.  Or maybe there's a +actions card which trashes ruins.

[engineer]

So, is the Cultist play another Cultist a one-time-only chance or can you go back to it if you draw another Cultist later on in your turn?  Mining Village is phrased so you must trash it immediately to gain the benefit of the $ (and yes, I except there might be some neat Mining Village / Graverobber tricks as Mining Village gives the draw and actions no matter what; I predict we will see a bit of cycling them in and out of the Trash on some boards). 

Cultist doesn't seem to have a time restriction on it though.  Possibilities?

Pretty sure it's restricted to immediately after you play the first Cultist.

You play Cultist.  You carry out everything you can on the card:

- draw 2
- distribute ruins
- play another Cultist, if you want to

If you don't do the third thing, then it's over and you continue with your turn as normal.

I agree.  To put it simply, you always have to resolve an action card (as much as possible) before you move on. 

For example, you can't play a Village, then a Spice Merchant, then a Conspirator, pick up a copper, and then trash it using the Spice Merchant.  If you played the SM before the Conspirator, then either you trash a treasure at that point or you move on to the Conspirator.

[ftl]

Man, I think the mere presence of looters in a kingdom will make Golem and HP worthless.  Just a couple of ruins in your deck basically causes these cards to completely dud quite often.  Once it happens a few times, there will be a snowball effect as the looting player keeps adding ruins to the Golem (or HP) deck.  I guess with 200 different types of cards, it's inevitable that the presence of a few cards could render a few other cards obsolete.  (Can anybody think of an example where that happens already? Lighthouse vs Sea Hag maybe?)

On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong, and the effect of ruins won't be as significant as it seems.  Or maybe there are other DA cards that help the situation, if they're available, such as ones that specialize in hunting for and trashing ruins.  Or maybe there's a +actions card which trashes ruins.

You're overreacting, I think. First, at WORST, Hunting Party will be a $5 Lab. Lab is already a $5 card. It'll ruin the traditional Hunting Party DECK (1 silver, 1 gold, 1 terminal silver, lots of HPs) but HP as a card will still be fine even in the presence of ruins. Whenever you get a Laboratory in a ruins-infested deck, HP would probably work no worse. It'll still skip over coppers and estates pretty well.

Likewise, you won't be able to make a "Golem Deck" where you get one or two actions and lots of golems. But there's nothing wrong with using Golem in a more standard way, as an engine component - it's still basically equivalent to Village+Lab (Draw 2 cards which are guaranteed to be actions and play them immediately) with, admittedly, a little less control. You'll want to play a Village before the golem because you won't have as much control over the outcome. But it'll still be playable. Perhaps a little too expensive, but still  reasonable.

They won't be worthless. They'll be weaker, but by no means worthless.

(And, BTW, Masquerade does shut down, like, Sea Hag or something. It's not unprecedented.)

[chesskidnate]

Hm... I wonder if cultist's ability of rapidly junking is strong enough to open silver/silver on an ambassador board(assuming amb can return ruins but would need multiples with same name in hand to return 2 at a time). The idea is that you can probably still hit early 5s against amb to buy cultists and the junking from the cultist happens more rapidly than cursers along with the effect of making the amb take longer to send junk back since it will probably be at a rate of 1 per turn ambassador is played if he's sending ruins

[david707]

My speculation:
Ruined Chapel: Trash a card
Shelter (replaces starting estates in a game with a looter):
Victory Reaction Cost 2
1 VP
Reveal to be unaffected by a looter.

[AJD]

First, at WORST, Hunting Party will be a $5 Lab.

I mean, that's not quite true. Lab won't go skipping over Silvers to hunt down your Ruins just because you already have Silver in hand, for instance.

[sherwinpr]

I don't remember from other sets, but do blank cards count towards the total?

Yes, they do.  Typically they're used for the leftover excess that nothing can be done with.  I think only one set had 11 or more blank cards (and hence, could have had an extra kingdom card, that didn't; the secret histories mention this): Seaside with 288 Kingdom Cards (and randomizers) and 12 blank cards.

[rinkworks]

First, at WORST, Hunting Party will be a $5 Lab.

I mean, that's not quite true. Lab won't go skipping over Silvers to hunt down your Ruins just because you already have Silver in hand, for instance.

On the other hand, they might skip a Silver and pick up your Gold instead.  Pretty sure it's a wash between the two possibilities most of the time, the exception being if you're reliant on a single stack of something, like Minions, and don't care about anything else.  Then HP is inferior to Lab.  But bottom line, HP is still a solid $5 card even when an HP stack can't work.

[ftl]

On the other hand, if you're aiming to have a varied engine with different components, HP is still better for putting it together. If you have a villages in hand, HP has a higher chance of finding you a smithy instead of a village, and vice versa.

[shMerker]

How many hands do you people have?

[ftl]

At the moment, three. Dominion: Appendages came with 20 limbs of which I randomly pick four every day!

[play2draw]

So there are 500 cards in the set:
352 cards are Kingdom cards, assuming Feodum is the only Victory card (which seems unlikely).
35 cards are randomizer cards: 387.
50 are Ruins. It's likely that these too have randomizer cards, just as every other supply pile in the game.
Shelters replace the initial Estates. Thus, there are at least 18.

We've now accounted for 460 of the cards.

What follows is obviously silly speculation:

Take for instance, if there are two different types of shelter cards, then there would have to be at least another 18 in the set. If then these cards are also available in the supply, then you'll need another 20 cards + 2 for randomizer cards. This brings us to exactly 500. This, of course, only works if Feodum is the only Victory card in the set.

Alternatively, three different Shelters that are not supply cards would add an additional 54 instead of 18. This brings us to 496 cards. This means that we could have three more victory cards in the set to round out the expansion.

Edit: Alternatively, there could just be 40 blank cards in the set.

[AJD]

Man, Donald X has clearly been waiting eagerly to use the card name "Feodum" since, like, day one:

You want a Dominion!  In all directions lie fiefs, freeholds, and feodums.