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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #2: Feodum, Cultist, Ruined Market  (Read 184397 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #125 on: August 07, 2012, 10:54:02 am »
0

Curious - in the box, will there be separate slots for each Ruins pile, or will they all be shoved into one pile?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #126 on: August 07, 2012, 10:54:39 am »
+7

Prediction: Cultists are going to be pretty decent, but not to the level of Witch or Mountebank. Probably somewhere around #6 in the best $5 cards list.

Prediction: Cultist won't be in the top 10 of the best $5 cards, but probably the top 20.

Prediction:  Ruined Market won't be in the top 5 $0 cards but probably somewhere in the top 10.
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chwhite

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #127 on: August 07, 2012, 10:59:34 am »
0

Crossposted from the other prediction thread:


Feodum: Ew.  Ew ew ew ew ew ew.  I really don't like that this card exists in this form at ALL.  I mean, sure of course there has to be a Treasure-counting alt VP card, but Silver-only still doesn't sit right with me even after Donald's explanation.  He excluded Copper because it would be too similar to Gardens, but Silk Road already plays very similar to Gardens anyway, so since when is that a disqualifying factor?  And I don't see why Kingdom Treasures need to be excluded, you don't always want them.  (Heck, sometimes I don't want Gold.)

As for the pinata ability, it's a double-edged sword.  Trashing Feodum for benefit for the Silvers and not actually going Feodum is, I suspect, going to be pretty slow and not necessarily better than just buying Silver to begin with.  C.f. Treasure Map, which is a bad card that gets you four golds when you line it up: and lining up Feodum/Trasher is easier, but the immediate benefits are far lower, too.  If you trash Feodum to get Silvers to feed your other Feodums, that's a tough tradeoff too.  What it does do, however, and I am frustrated just thinking about it, is throw a kick in the teeth of denial strategies.  For example, Bishop is a great Gardens counter, but if you're going for a slim Bishop deck you may not be as able to just blithely buy and trash Feodums.

Obviously, it's going to be great with Silver-gainers like B-crat and Explorer; I suspect a Jack deck will still just want to go Province anyway, though I could see it possibly grabbing Feodums over Duchy in the endgame.  In general this is a card that is going to be ill-suited to rush strategies, and instead feature mostly as cheap Duchies in silver-flood decks that get most of their points from Province.  I can also predict with confidence that I'm going to hate this card. :P

Cultist: I don't see how this can be anything but super strong.  While Ruins don't hurt nearly as much as Curse, a self-chainable junk-giving card that can find itself, and then gives you a bonus late-game when the Ruins are depleted, is going to dominate games nearly as much as Witch.  (This is because the fact Curse being a dead card is usually even more harmful than the -1 VP.)  I suspect chaining Cultists is going to be not very common in practice, because if all the players go Cultist like they probably should your deck is going to get junked up and it'll be hard to line them up often.  The when-trash bonus, however, is going to be really nice in games with trashing, which balances the fact that the presence of trashing is obviously going to take the sting off of Ruins a bit when it exists.

Ruined Market:  Yeah, as mentioned by others this is actually probably one of the more useful Ruins.  These things may not be as bad as Curse, but I sure as heck won't want a deck full of them.
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rinkworks

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #128 on: August 07, 2012, 10:59:57 am »
+1

Love the artwork, by the way.  The replication of the artwork on the Grand Market card is really clever, effective, and evocative.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #129 on: August 07, 2012, 11:02:10 am »
+1

Upgrade a Cultist into a Gold, Watchtower it, draw it along with 2 other cards.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #130 on: August 07, 2012, 11:02:48 am »
0


Cultist: I don't see how this can be anything but super strong.  While Ruins don't hurt nearly as much as Curse, a self-chainable junk-giving card that can find itself, and then gives you a bonus late-game when the Ruins are depleted, is going to dominate games nearly as much as Witch.  (This is because the fact Curse being a dead card is usually even more harmful than the -1 VP.)  I suspect chaining Cultists is going to be not very common in practice, because if all the players go Cultist like they probably should your deck is going to get junked up and it'll be hard to line them up often.  The when-trash bonus, however, is going to be really nice in games with trashing, which balances the fact that the presence of trashing is obviously going to take the sting off of Ruins a bit when it exists.

Hey look, chwhite and I agree on something!

I predict Cultist will be equivalent, or stronger, than Witch and Mountebank.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #131 on: August 07, 2012, 11:03:01 am »
0

Love the artwork, by the way.  The replication of the artwork on the Grand Market card is really clever, effective, and evocative.

It's the same artist.
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chwhite

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #132 on: August 07, 2012, 11:06:16 am »
+1


Cultist: I don't see how this can be anything but super strong.  While Ruins don't hurt nearly as much as Curse, a self-chainable junk-giving card that can find itself, and then gives you a bonus late-game when the Ruins are depleted, is going to dominate games nearly as much as Witch.  (This is because the fact Curse being a dead card is usually even more harmful than the -1 VP.)  I suspect chaining Cultists is going to be not very common in practice, because if all the players go Cultist like they probably should your deck is going to get junked up and it'll be hard to line them up often.  The when-trash bonus, however, is going to be really nice in games with trashing, which balances the fact that the presence of trashing is obviously going to take the sting off of Ruins a bit when it exists.

Hey look, chwhite and I agree on something!

I predict Cultist will be equivalent, or stronger, than Witch and Mountebank.

I don't think it will be quite as strong as Witch or Mountebank.  It's going to be hard to actually chain Cultists if there are Ruins flying around, and the Ruins will hurt but not as much as Curse, and the when-trash ability, awesome as it is, is still just one card better than playing Cultist to begin with.

I do think it will probably be better than Ill-Gotten Gains, and almost certainly better than all the other $5 Attacks.

Also, we totally agreed on Spice Merchant, too.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 11:07:18 am by chwhite »
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Varsinor

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #133 on: August 07, 2012, 11:09:58 am »
+1

The interesting question is: will the Ruined Village be +2 Actions or just +1 Action? I'm guessing +2 because outside of some Conspirator niche cases, an action that does nothing has no redeeming quality.

I'm pretty sure it will be +1 action. Sure, that is worse than +1 buy, +1$ or +1 card in most cases. But Donald already wrote that some of them are worse than others. And he also wrote that they're all bad - and +2 actions wouldn't be all that bad - there are many decks in which I'd voluntarily take that card, at least for free.

IMO that would be too good for supposedly being bad... ;) I think the Ruined Market is as close as any of the Ruins gets to being a not-too-bad or even desirable card on quite a few boards (the ones without other +buys).

But still, there are more cases than have been mentioned here so far where a Ruined Village with only +1 action isn't all that bad:

But Ruined Village seems way worse than all the others. With Market and Woodcutter; you may find yourself glad you have that card in hand. With Laboratory, at least you can replace it with another card if you have an action lying around. But Ruined village is just as bad as a Curse/Estate (confusion card), unless you happen to have Horn of Plenty, Conspirator, or Peddler.

There are quite a few more examples in addition to Horn of Plenty, Conspirator or Peddler where a Ruined Village which gives only +1 action can be beneficial:

Fairgrounds obviously.

And there are cases with Menagerie, Throne Room, King's Court and Golem. (For instance, a Hand of KC, Ruined Village and 3 Torturers is considerably better than KC and 4 Torturers.)

When you play a Ruined Village before drawing up to x cards with Library, Watchtower or Jack, the existence of the Ruined Village at least won't have hurt you.
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mistergross

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #134 on: August 07, 2012, 11:11:16 am »
0

Shelter prediction:

$2
Victory/Action
0 VP
Trash a card from your hand.

(Replaces Estates)

Either that, or same thing with $3 cost, 1 VP
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #135 on: August 07, 2012, 11:13:11 am »
0

Thanks for the answer guys. Now hypothetical. 2 cards in the kingdom. Witch and Cultist. Your turn 3 you have 5 coins. Which do you buy. I'm thinking it's cultist here for the chain. But the -1 vp from curses might give witch the edge (since you both get to dole out 10 bad cards). Let's also assume your first player and your opponent hasn't picked up either yet.

And then if your second player do you always pick the opposite?
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carstimon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #136 on: August 07, 2012, 11:14:24 am »
+2

Rules question! I play village cultist cultist. Do I have an action available to me? The ways I see it are

1)No you played 2 actions.
2) Yes village gave you 2 you played a cultist for one and as part of cultists resolution you got to play another

2)

Yes, you have an action. You did not spend an action to play the second Cultist.

Pedantic man is here!

It depends on how you choose to play it. When you play the first Cultist, you now have the option to play another Cultist, as a part of resolving the first Cultist. If you do, then afterwards you will still have an action remaining from your Village. But, you could also choose to not play the Cultist as a part of the "you may" clause, and then play a Cultist because you have an extra action from Village. In other words, simply saying "I play Village, Cultist, Cultist" is not enough information to know if you have another action.

And this is gonna be a good play when ruined diadem is released: -1$ for every unused action.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #137 on: August 07, 2012, 11:14:48 am »
0

Who would buy Transmute if it were the only trasher on a board with Feodum?
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Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #138 on: August 07, 2012, 11:16:59 am »
0

I'd go Cultist. It gives junk faster as there is no fear of collision, which will slow down Witch more than it Witch slows down you. Especially if there is a trasher (Salvager/Upgrade/), so you can turn them into something awesomer when Ruins run out (maybe even into witches, but i don't think cultist is THAT much faster than a witch).
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Voltgloss

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #139 on: August 07, 2012, 11:17:04 am »
0

Don't have time to read the whole thread, so apologies if this was already brought up, but:

With Feodum around, will we get a rule clarification on whether Silvers (and, by extension, other money cards) are a pile that can/cannot be emptied?

Treasure card piles can be emptied and count toward the end condition. See, for example, http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2728.msg44273#msg44273.

I asked my question inartfully.  A better question:  how big is the Silver pile supposed to be?  One set's worth of Silvers, or two (Base + Intrigue)?  Or even three (old Base + new Base + Intrigue)?  Whatever the answer, there are significant ramifications for Feodum.
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platykurtic

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #140 on: August 07, 2012, 11:18:46 am »
0

My predictions.

Feodum: Super obvious synergy with Trader and Jack. The fact that you can trash them for one to gain another "point" worth of silver is a tough mechanic to wrap my head around. It seems like you need to predict the number of silvers you'll end up with and calculate a balance based on that. You can also buy one to deny your opponents and then trash it for silvers (although they might be able to graverob it). There are 40 silvers, so in 2 player splitting those would make this worth 6 points, meaning with a good enough silver enabler this strategy seems pretty dominant over provinces. What constitutes a good silver enabler beyond the obvious is a good question that we'll have to figure out. With 6 silvers this becomes a consolation prize for duchy, which might not be an unreasonable way to skew a province deck. All in all a good alternate victory card that makes you think whether or not to go for it

Cultist: Love the theme. I look forwards to all kinds of looters running around destroying stuff. If this were a curser it would be strictly dominant over witch, one of the better cards. The chaining lets you justify getting two of them early, though you'd run out of ruins before this could get too crazy. But with the lab effect with other cultists and the trash for benefit aspect they aren't useless after ruins are gone either. The chaining doesn't seem like a strategy to itself since it will soon get clogged with green in anything but a golden deck of sorts, so the trashing sounds more appealing. Presumably this is all balanced out by the fact that Ruins aren't as bad as curses, although they're nearly as deck clogging. I call this a really good card

Ruined Market: Less harmful and useless curses. They don't have the negative point, and they have a small chance of being useful. Certainly in a game where +buy is desperately needed someone could quite reasonably buy this off the top of the ruins deck. DVX implied that there's also Ruined Smithy (+1 card), Ruined Village (+1 action), and Ruined Something (+1$), along with a weirder one. RMarket sounds like the most useful, which RVillage being particularly useless. RSmithy cycles a bit if you've got the action and the +1$ is a copper if you've got the action. Certainly all this will make fairgrounds and similar better, though presumably they're only put out when something like cultist is on the board. With fairgrounds I'd probably try to buy these up at the last minute with extra buys. With both players going for that at the same time it could get dicey. Games with cursers and looters could turn into a huge slog, but otherwise this sounds like a fun mechanic
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michaeljb

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #141 on: August 07, 2012, 11:20:44 am »
0

Don't have time to read the whole thread, so apologies if this was already brought up, but:

With Feodum around, will we get a rule clarification on whether Silvers (and, by extension, other money cards) are a pile that can/cannot be emptied?

Treasure card piles can be emptied and count toward the end condition. See, for example, http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2728.msg44273#msg44273.

I asked my question inartfully.  A better question:  how big is the Silver pile supposed to be?  One set's worth of Silvers, or two (Base + Intrigue)?  Or even three (old Base + new Base + Intrigue)?  Whatever the answer, there are significant ramifications for Feodum.

Quote from: Intrigue Rulebook
The Treasure cards from Dominion and Dominion: Intrigue can be combined, since these cards are intended to be in abundant enough supply to not run out.

I remembered this being in Intrigue's rulebook, but I had incorrectly thought it was in the section for 5-6 players (it's actually in the Preparation section). So based on that, I'd say you could use all three sets of base cards you might have access to if you want, even if you're only playing with 2 players.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 11:22:04 am by michaeljb »
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Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #142 on: August 07, 2012, 11:20:47 am »
0

Looters + Rabble!

It's even thematic!  ;D
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #143 on: August 07, 2012, 11:22:39 am »
0

So when exactly is the date Dark Ages available to buy? Or are we still waiting for the release date?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #144 on: August 07, 2012, 11:24:30 am »
+4

Upgrade a Cultist into a Gold, Watchtower it, draw it along with 2 other cards.

I'm not sure if you can do that, actually... I think that when you play Upgrade, first you trash the Cultist. At that moment you have to choose to draw 3 cards; before you have gained anything from Upgrade. Then you gain a card, then you can reveal Watchtower.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #145 on: August 07, 2012, 11:24:41 am »
0

So when exactly is the date Dark Ages available to buy? Or are we still waiting for the release date?

Well it's technically available to buy now; I've pre-ordered my copy from Boards & Bits (edit: and I know there are some other sites taking pre-orders on it now). It's supposed to actually release at a gaming convention (pretty sure it's GenCon but not sure enough to just say it :P) next week, with general availability (hopefully) soon to follow.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 11:25:46 am by michaeljb »
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #146 on: August 07, 2012, 11:26:53 am »
0

Upgrade a Cultist into a Gold, Watchtower it, draw it along with 2 other cards.

I'm not sure if you can do that, actually... I think that when you play Upgrade, first you trash the Cultist. At that moment you have to choose to draw 3 cards; before you have gained anything from Upgrade. Then you gain a card, then you can reveal Watchtower.

Still, you get 3 extra cards, and an Action to use them with!
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #147 on: August 07, 2012, 11:28:29 am »
0

Upgrade a Cultist into a Gold, Watchtower it, draw it along with 2 other cards.

I'm not sure if you can do that, actually... I think that when you play Upgrade, first you trash the Cultist. At that moment you have to choose to draw 3 cards; before you have gained anything from Upgrade. Then you gain a card, then you can reveal Watchtower.

Still, you get 3 extra cards, and an Action to use them with!

Indeed. Upgrade and Lookout will both be great here; because they are the (so far) non-terminal trashers.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #148 on: August 07, 2012, 11:30:18 am »
0

Indeed. Upgrade and Lookout will both be great here; because they are the (so far) non-terminal trashers.

Also apprentice.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #2
« Reply #149 on: August 07, 2012, 11:30:41 am »
+10

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

IT JUST DAWNED ON ME

SHELTERS PROTECT YOU FROM LOOTERS





i.e.

Shelter
Victory-Reaction
$2
0 VP

When another player plays a Looter card, you may reveal this from your hand.  If you do, you are unaffected by that Looter.
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