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Author Topic: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino  (Read 4686 times)

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Rush_Clasic

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Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« on: August 06, 2012, 03:49:46 pm »
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Casino (3)
Action - Reaction
Flip three coins. +$1 per heads flipped.
-----
Whenever you would gain a card, reveal Casino from your hand and flip a coin. If you win the flip, gain a card costing up to $1 more. If you lose the flip, the player to your left chooses a card costing at most $1 less for you to gain.


Casino (3)
Action - Reaction
Flip four coins. +$1 per heads flipped.
-----
Whenever you would gain a card, reveal Casino from your hand and flip a coin. If you win the flip, gain a card costing up to $1 more. If you lose the flip, the player to your left chooses a card costing up to $1 less for you to gain.



  • There is a large quantity of players that dislike random effects (the whole "We-Hate-TOURNAMENT" crowd, for instance). But there's a group that enjoys the added excitement of it (albeit a small group). Random shuffles already bring this out, but the nature of the game doesn't capture the moment all that well. I'm sure plenty of people will hate this card. I'm not making it for those people. (NOTE: If it has functional problems, that's another issue altogether.)
  • I'm uncertain of the exact timing of reactions. The way I understand it, if you had two of these in your hand and another player plays an Embassy, you could reveal the first one, win your flip, and choose to gain, say, a Throne Room instead. Then while that reaction is still resolving, you can reveal another Casino, win your flip, and gain a Duchy instead of the Throne Room.

    That is, you can't go infinite on flipping because the first reaction is still resolving when the second has its opportunity to get in. There's a chance I'd want to change the text to setting aside anyway if this interaction isn't intuitive, but I was curious to know if I'm correct from the get-go.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 05:18:14 pm by Rush_Clasic »
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One Armed Man

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 03:54:45 pm »
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Random effects are the most fun when they can be manipulated to the benefit of the player. Dominion uses Shuffle Luck to determine chance. See this article by Mark Rosewater:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/37
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 04:07:47 pm »
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"If you lose the flip, the player to your left chooses a card costing at least $1 less for you to gain."
Probably better, right ? Otherwise he would always choose curses....

The problem is : a chance of 1/8 to get $3, the same to get $0... and if you don't get $3 (7/8 chance) it's worse than silver ! This introduces a luck factor that doesn't depend at all on the player's deck like Harvest and even Treasure map do (and this is why Black market is my least favourite card too, followed by possession) ! So I dislike, sorry !
I'm afraid it turns Dominion into a more "fun-orientated" game, instead of a strategic one.
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Tombolo

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 04:32:53 pm »
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Top part is worse than terminal Silver half the time, with no added benefits like most $3 terminal silvers have even if you get two heads.  It only improves on terminal silver 1/8 of the time, and even then it's not that much better than the other $3 terminal silver options.  I feel like $2 would be a better price, as it feels more like Duchess in power scale than Swindler. 

Bottom part needs re-tooling a bit, because with the current wording you can cheat and not reveal one.  I'd add a "you may" clause- forcing you to reveal your hand every time you gain a card is the only other option and it's really weak, and forced play also makes it rather undesirable for endgame.  I can't think of many scenarios I'd really WANT to reveal it, so forcing the matter makes this something I'm not sure I'd even want at $2.
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razorborne

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 04:46:40 pm »
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"If you lose the flip, the player to your left chooses a card costing at least $1 less for you to gain."
Probably better, right ? Otherwise he would always choose curses....
it's awkward either way, since there's no clarification as to whether the "at least/most" is referring to the cost or the reduction, which are basically the opposite functions. I think "at most" is probably clearer, mainly since it's a less common phrase so it grabs you and makes you go "why did they word it like that?" but either way you'd need a specific explanation in the FAQ. that said, in my experience, people tend to assume their cards make sense, and since this replacing a bought Province with a curse is way too high a risk, it should be fairly obvious to people how it's supposed to be played.
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Kahryl

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 04:47:10 pm »
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"the player to your left chooses a card costing at most $1 less for you to gain."

"the player to your left chooses a card costing at least $1 less for you to gain."

Weird.. no matter which way you phrase it, it sounds like they can give you curses :)

"The card should cost at least $1 less? Okay I'll make it $3 less"

"The card should cost at most $1 less? Okay I'll make it cost NOTHING!"

How about "chooses a card costing at least a much as $1 less"
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 04:58:00 pm by Kahryl »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 05:00:53 pm »
+1

I think you're still overlooking that you can reveal the same reaction multiple times.

Say someone plays Swindler and hits your Silver, opting to give you another Silver.

Reveal Casino.  Successful flip -- now you can gain a $4.  Let's say TR.

BUT WAIT.  Reveal Casino.  Successful flip -- now you can gain a Duchy!

REVEAL CASINO.  Let's say it fails this time.

Reveal Casino AGAIN.

Basically you can keep doing this until you get what you want or you hit a cost for which there is no valid card to gain (because then you wouldn't be gaining any card, so you can't reveal Casino at that point).
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 05:18:51 pm »
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Random effects are the most fun when they can be manipulated to the benefit of the player. Dominion uses Shuffle Luck to determine chance. See this article by Mark Rosewater:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/37

I have. :) Note the Scoria Wurm section says much of what I had to about this likely being a card liked by a select few. Thinking about it more, the initial flipping mechanic should change. 4 flips could be reasonable considering how random it is. The problem there (and perhaps with the initial) is how many flips you're making players do. I could change it to two flips at $2 a piece. That opens a greater chance of getting no money. Another option is to guarantee some benefit, then flip to get more. Wouldn't be the best casino theme, but wouldn't be the worst, either.

The problem is : a chance of 1/8 to get $3, the same to get $0... and if you don't get $3 (7/8 chance) it's worse than silver ! This introduces a luck factor that doesn't depend at all on the player's deck like Harvest and even Treasure map do (and this is why Black market is my least favourite card too, followed by possession) ! So I dislike, sorry !

Increasing it by one flip makes it a lot better. I threw around some ideas above. I wasn't thinking about all the possibilities before.

I'm afraid it turns Dominion into a more "fun-orientated" game, instead of a strategic one.

I think some cards should gear in that direction. If this were in a set, it'd be the far end of it's play style, not the main motif.

"If you lose the flip, the player to your left chooses a card costing at least $1 less for you to gain."
Probably better, right ? Otherwise he would always choose curses....
it's awkward either way, since there's no clarification as to whether the "at least/most" is referring to the cost or the reduction, which are basically the opposite functions. I think "at most" is probably clearer, mainly since it's a less common phrase so it grabs you and makes you go "why did they word it like that?" but either way you'd need a specific explanation in the FAQ. that said, in my experience, people tend to assume their cards make sense, and since this replacing a bought Province with a curse is way too high a risk, it should be fairly obvious to people how it's supposed to be played.

I'm dumb. It should just be "up to $1 less", like the other half.

I think you're still overlooking that you can reveal the same reaction multiple times.

Say someone plays Swindler and hits your Silver, opting to give you another Silver.

Reveal Casino.  Successful flip -- now you can gain a $4.  Let's say TR.

BUT WAIT.  Reveal Casino.  Successful flip -- now you can gain a Duchy!

REVEAL CASINO.  Let's say it fails this time.

Reveal Casino AGAIN.

Basically you can keep doing this until you get what you want or you hit a cost for which there is no valid card to gain (because then you wouldn't be gaining any card, so you can't reveal Casino at that point).

I know that you can reveal one Reaction card multiple times. I assumed you couldn't do so until the initial reaction resolved. If I understand Reaction timing correctly (which I very well might not), you would gain the replacement card before the initial reveal has resolved, thus having no event to reveal for. If that's an incredibly wrong interpretation, I'll adjust the wording.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 05:24:10 pm by Rush_Clasic »
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zahlman

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 08:00:11 pm »
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Random effects are the most fun when they can be manipulated to the benefit of the player. Dominion uses Shuffle Luck to determine chance. See this article by Mark Rosewater:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/37

So, reveal and discard from the top of the deck, and count "heads" for revealed Treasures... ?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 08:05:15 pm »
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I know that you can reveal one Reaction card multiple times. I assumed you couldn't do so until the initial reaction resolved. If I understand Reaction timing correctly (which I very well might not), you would gain the replacement card before the initial reveal has resolved, thus having no event to reveal for. If that's an incredibly wrong interpretation, I'll adjust the wording.

I believe it is resolved in time for you to reveal it again.

1. About to gain card X.
2. Reveal Casino.
3. Carry out card text --> instead of gaining X, you will gain Y which is $1 more or less.  Reaction is now resolved.
4. Return to step 1, substituting Y for X.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 09:02:15 pm »
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But gaining the new card should be part of the ability's resolution, as I read it.

eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 09:05:10 pm »
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But gaining the new card should be part of the ability's resolution, as I read it.

It might be up for debate.  I think my interpretation is correct, but I guess there aren't really any other reactions that are comparable.  Trader is closest, but revealing it more than once still gets you the same result.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 09:28:42 pm »
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It's an interesting side-point, but I think it makes clear that the card wants a rewrite just for clarity's sake.

razorborne

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2012, 11:56:59 pm »
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pretty sure halcyon is right. just because the ability is currently resolving doesn't mean the card isn't in your hand to reveal again. here's a test:

say my opponent tries to use Ambassador to give me a province to empty the pile and win. I have trader and watchtower. I don't want to just trash it because that still gets rid of the last province. I also don't want the silver 'cause it'll gum up my engine. can I reveal Trader to replace it with silver, then reveal a watchtower to trash that silver? if so, there's no reason I can't reveal casino in the middle of resolving casino. just because it's the ability of the same casino doesn't mean it can't replace it.
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Tombolo

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 12:06:51 am »
+1

This card stuck in my head all during my shift.  Here's what I came up with:
-Instead of flipping 3 coins, give it +$2 and only flip one...or if you prefer you could make it $1 and two coins.  That gives it an expectation value better than terminal silver, or at least equal to.
-Let the player pick even on a Casino loss.  This has two functions- it reduces the kingmaking potential ("yeah bro I'll replace your copper with a Province") and takes a lot of the edge off missing the coinflip.  You can also simplify the losing wording to "costing less than."
-Maybe have a discard, +1 Card on the bottom part for simplicity's sake.

I think those changes would simplify the card a bit and also buff it up to a level where it compares favorably to Chancellor.
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zahlman

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2012, 11:30:09 am »
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This card stuck in my head all during my shift.  Here's what I came up with:
-Instead of flipping 3 coins, give it +$2 and only flip one...or if you prefer you could make it $1 and two coins.  That gives it an expectation value better than terminal silver, or at least equal to.
-Let the player pick even on a Casino loss.  This has two functions- it reduces the kingmaking potential ("yeah bro I'll replace your copper with a Province") and takes a lot of the edge off missing the coinflip.  You can also simplify the losing wording to "costing less than."
-Maybe have a discard, +1 Card on the bottom part for simplicity's sake.

I think those changes would simplify the card a bit and also buff it up to a level where it compares favorably to Chancellor.

IMO if you're making it generate either $2 or $3, it needs a relatively low probability of generating $3 to stay at the $3 level.
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Tombolo

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Re: Clasic_Cards #21 - Casino
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2012, 11:47:27 am »
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Eh, 50% might be a bit high, but considering some of the other cards available at 3, I'm still not sold on "chance at an extra $" as that great a boost for a terminal silver.  I suppose it might be a bit strong for $3 if you add all of my buffs, but otherwise I can't think of many situations where I'd really want this card.
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