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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage  (Read 156494 times)

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engineer

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #225 on: August 06, 2012, 08:08:13 pm »
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I just implemented Sage in Dominate, and interestingly, taking the included Scheme/Witch bot and replacing Scheme by Sage results in a bot that's a lot stronger (winning 63/37). I thought that I'd prefer Scheme every time, but maybe not.

That makes some sense.  If you draw the Witch before the scheme in a shuffle, then you still have to wait for the next shuffle to play the witch again.  If you draw the Witch before the Sage, then you still get to play it twice in the shuffle, because the Sage will run through your whole deck, triggering another reshuffle, just to get back at that Witch.  If you draw the Scheme/Sage before the Witch, then the Sage lets you play the Witch immediately, and likely gets you close to another reshuffle to see it again.  The Scheme lets you play the Witch twice, so that second case is probably a wash.

I am surprised, though, that the Sage doesn't get tripped up by silver.  If you don't get lucky enough to open 5/2, then you either have to buy silver or hope for 5 coppers to buy that witch, and the silver will be a trip card for the Sage.
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engineer

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #226 on: August 06, 2012, 08:13:30 pm »
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- PH may not combo as well with sifters / discarders as we might imagine. Say you play a Warehouse and have to decide what to discard with a hand of PH, C, C, C, E, E, E. It doesn't matter what you discard, you will still get $4. This shows how discarding Coppers only improves PH if you play more than one PH after the discard, and discarding Silver only helps if you play at least 3. Hamlet still seems pretty nice with PH, since it's cheap, gives +Buy, gives 2 Actions, and gives discarding. Still, you would have to have 2 PH + Hamlet in hand to make discarding Coppers worthwhile.

Wow, you're totally right on the money there.  :o *Pun intended*

Cards that draw and return cards to the deck, or save cards over to the next turn, would be much better combos.  Courtyard or Haven would probably be much better than warehouse, because you can save your coppers for later.  (Of course, courtyard is also a terminal.)  I still say cellar is a good combo though, because you don't have to agonize about whether to discard your coppers in the hope for better cards.
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permanoob

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #227 on: August 06, 2012, 08:40:57 pm »
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I am so happy for Sage/Counting House. Counting House is infused with the power of infinity. As you all know, exploding into a copper faceplant is just a legit activity that I partake in, and Sage is the sweet sweet cream on top of the sliced bread.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #228 on: August 06, 2012, 08:56:51 pm »
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Sage reminds me a lot of HP, but drawing one less card and always guaranteed to hit an action.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #229 on: August 06, 2012, 08:58:37 pm »
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Sage reminds me a lot of HP, but drawing one less card and always guaranteed to hit an action.

Sage is not guaranteed to hit an action.  It can hit Silvers, Golds, Duchies, Provinces...
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O

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #230 on: August 06, 2012, 09:04:47 pm »
+5

I am so happy for Sage/Counting House. Counting House is infused with the power of infinity. As you all know, exploding into a copper faceplant is just a legit activity that I partake in, and Sage is the sweet sweet cream on top of the sliced bread.

Sage Countinghouse:

1) Sage doesn't go through twice like golem; there is no guarantee of it hitting the end of the shuffle (spamming sages sort of still works)
2) You need to get 5$ without buying silver, takes a few turns
3) You pull off this difficult combo and buy a province. Your sages now draw your green and your combo dies.
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ehunt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #231 on: August 06, 2012, 09:09:44 pm »
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yeah, #3 is devastating for sage/counting house

i suspect sage drawing your one damn province out of a giant stack of king's courts and grand markets is going to be the new baron copper copper copper copper.
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jsh357

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #232 on: August 06, 2012, 09:14:43 pm »
+1

My wife and I just played a game with Native Village, Poor House (blanks) and Spice Merchant.  This card is hilariously fun!  Trash all the copper down, pull in a NV mega hand, play 2 Poor Houses, instant Province.
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iMystic

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #233 on: August 06, 2012, 10:29:19 pm »
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Hamlets + Poor House is so perfect, it will be awesome and fast like hell.
Hamlets give +Buy and +Actions while also helping discarding the coppers.

Buy mass Hamlets early, then mass Poor House with Hamlets +buy.
With mass Hamlets, it is possible to discard all the coppers each turn.
If 1 Poor House found, buy 2x Hamlets / 2-4x Poor House.
If 2 Poor House found, play 2 Poor House = Province.

Can be much faster with Warehouse and Cellar.
The deck doesn't need Silver or Gold to build.
Less powerful in Colony games though.
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ftl

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #234 on: August 06, 2012, 10:42:25 pm »
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In colony games you need 3 poor houses to get a colony. A little harder to set up -but not by THAT much. You have to add just a little bit of card draw - maybe an occasional smithy or smithy equivalent.
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jsh357

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #235 on: August 06, 2012, 10:47:50 pm »
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In colony games you need 3 poor houses to get a colony. A little harder to set up -but not by THAT much. You have to add just a little bit of card draw - maybe an occasional smithy or smithy equivalent.

the $5 from Platinum probably dilutes the need for 3 PHs.  3 + 3 + 5 is still 11
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Grujah

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #236 on: August 06, 2012, 10:48:25 pm »
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In colony games you need 3 poor houses to get a colony. A little harder to set up -but not by THAT much. You have to add just a little bit of card draw - maybe an occasional smithy or smithy equivalent.

Courtyard?

Like, an viable Colony engine with components costing 2 or less.
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ftl

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #237 on: August 06, 2012, 10:55:00 pm »
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In colony games you need 3 poor houses to get a colony. A little harder to set up -but not by THAT much. You have to add just a little bit of card draw - maybe an occasional smithy or smithy equivalent.

the $5 from Platinum probably dilutes the need for 3 PHs.  3 + 3 + 5 is still 11

Actually, 9 is a very difficult number to get in that situation - only slightly easier than getting 12. You'd need three PHs with a copper still in hand to hit 10.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #238 on: August 06, 2012, 10:55:19 pm »
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In colony games you need 3 poor houses to get a colony. A little harder to set up -but not by THAT much. You have to add just a little bit of card draw - maybe an occasional smithy or smithy equivalent.

Courtyard?

Like, an viable Colony engine with components costing 2 or less.

Chapel, Hamlet, Courtyard, Poor House.  Wez in bidnezz.
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Loschmidt

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #239 on: August 06, 2012, 11:38:36 pm »
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I think the "from $3 to $6" clause is to prevent infinite Embargoes.  Unless Dark Ages has a card that increases costs...

I'm still really interested in the $3 minimum. I don't quite buy that it is for embargo. As jotheonah and lekkit pointed out 10 embargoes is more than enough to ruin anyone's day, 50 wont make a difference.

My prediction is that there is another <$3 self trasher to come in this set with a more game breaking multi-use effect.

EDIT: Sorry I missed that Glooble already said this :(
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 11:40:48 pm by Loschmidt »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #240 on: August 07, 2012, 12:02:54 am »
+1

My wife and I just played a game with Native Village, Poor House (blanks) and Spice Merchant.  This card is hilariously fun!  Trash all the copper down, pull in a NV mega hand, play 2 Poor Houses, instant Province.
Yeah, those four steps are instant.......

jmieden

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #241 on: August 07, 2012, 12:17:23 am »
+2

Played 4 games with 3 kingdoms using all three of the new cards tonight in each kingdom. Here were some things I learned about each card:

Poor House: This card was super fun to play with. I generally observed that this card has some great combo potential, especially in a deck loaded with actions and Throne Rooms (or King's Courts). Heavy trashing helps this card immensely, and its flexibility is fun. This is also especially good with extra buys and shines with Bridge.

Sage: Something I didn't expect is that Sage is a fantastic counter to Ambassador, more so even than the enabling that an opponent gets from having Sage to play their Ambassador more often. Sage is easily my favorite of the new cards because of its ability to give you a key card to your engine reliably. Sage makes it especially tempting to bypass Silver altogether.

Graverobber: This card was extremely situational. The first 2 kingdoms didn't see this card played at all, but it was amazing in the last one (which we played twice because we liked it so much). Throne Room, Remodel and Feast with this card were all pretty awesome.

Here were the key cards is the kingdoms played:
First game: City, Bridge, Herbalist, Talisman, Fool's Gold, Sage, Poor House.- We just messed around and played with the new cards.

Second game: Minion, Ambassador, Menagerie, Lighthouse, Sage, Poor House. (This game I did an almost mirror match, with both players taking a Minion based strategy. One player played Ambassador a bunch more (due to shuffle luck) and the other ended up play Menagerie and Sage to counter. Menagerie/Sage won out in the end by the estates passed with Ambassador).

Third game: Throne Room, Sage, Great Hall, Graverobber, Poor House, Remodel, Masquerade, Feast, Courtyard (Witch was the other card, but nobody took one). This one was fun! We played two games with this kingdom. We both ended up using the Throne Rooms like crazy with Sage, Feast, Poor House (since we wiped out all the copper and estates with Masquerade and Remodel) and especially Graverobber. I would recommend this kingdom to anybody to try out these new cards.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #242 on: August 07, 2012, 12:35:36 am »
+2

Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.

werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #243 on: August 07, 2012, 12:37:16 am »
0

Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.

The main thing PH has going for it over FG is TR/KC.  In the right instances, PH will be oodles better.  On average, FG will be better.  And that's reflected in the cost.
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ednever

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #244 on: August 07, 2012, 12:47:27 am »
+3

Played three games tonight with the new cards. All 2p.

My conclusions:

1- if poor house is in play in a province game, look very carefully. To make it work you need to discard and get extra actions and get draw to reliably have two in hand. If you can do it you can rush provinces pretty fast. But it dies too. Just like fg, after a few provinces getting two in hand becomes pretty difficult.

2- sage is awesome. It's power is in NOT getting silvers or other 3/4$ cards. And then using it to spam $5 cards. We played a game with festivals. At 50/50 festivals/safes you were effectively getting a $5 cards for $3. Very powerful on a 5/2 opening where you can ignore silvers altogether.
Sage starts to breakdown when you green - when it becomes a great trashing target (which makes Sense in this expansion...)

3- grave robbers was a trap card when we played. Even with a lot of Trashers it did not do very well. There are obviously going to be times when it works, but I think it will take a while to find them. Or maybe it just works well with a lot of da cards?

Fun games though. Amazing how sub-optimally one plays when there are flashy new cards in front of you...

Ed
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CaptainNevada

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #245 on: August 07, 2012, 12:48:30 am »
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Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.

Without seeing the whole set I think we're limited to seeing combos with other sets.  I won't be surprised when new cards have the kind of set synergy Cornucopia had.
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jmieden

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #246 on: August 07, 2012, 12:51:43 am »
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Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.

This was very accurate to what I experienced.

When I first saw the cards this morning, I had a freak out moment where I lamented the demise of balanced sets in Dominion. $1 cost cards?!? Gain from the trash?!? What have you done to my Dominion?!?

But then I played them, and it was fine :). They weren't even so dominant that each player NEEDED them, and they were quite fun and especially useful in the last game I posted above. Ultimately, I found them to be mostly situational (Sage seemed the least so), like almost every card in Dominion.

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jonts26

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #247 on: August 07, 2012, 12:57:59 am »
0

Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.

The main thing PH has going for it over FG is TR/KC.  In the right instances, PH will be oodles better.  On average, FG will be better.  And that's reflected in the cost.

That's not a main thing. It's 2 cards. Two cards in 200. Yeah, PH has a higher ceiling than FG, but it's going to be relevant far less often.
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CaptainNevada

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #248 on: August 07, 2012, 01:33:10 am »
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No amount of speculation about the cards is a substitute for actual play.  Hidden power comes out (Menagerie, Harvest, Hunting Party) and hidden weakness comes out (Jester, Saboteur). 

Played three games tonight with the new cards. All 2p.

My conclusions:

1- if poor house is in play in a province game, look very carefully. To make it work you need to discard and get extra actions and get draw to reliably have two in hand. If you can do it you can rush provinces pretty fast. But it dies too. Just like fg, after a few provinces getting two in hand becomes pretty difficult.

2- sage is awesome. It's power is in NOT getting silvers or other 3/4$ cards. And then using it to spam $5 cards. We played a game with festivals. At 50/50 festivals/safes you were effectively getting a $5 cards for $3. Very powerful on a 5/2 opening where you can ignore silvers altogether.
Sage starts to breakdown when you green - when it becomes a great trashing target (which makes Sense in this expansion...)

3- grave robbers was a trap card when we played. Even with a lot of Trashers it did not do very well. There are obviously going to be times when it works, but I think it will take a while to find them. Or maybe it just works well with a lot of da cards?

Fun games though. Amazing how sub-optimally one plays when there are flashy new cards in front of you...

Ed
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ConMan

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #249 on: August 07, 2012, 02:03:37 am »
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Hmm. Another combo of minimal utility - Graverobber/Highway/Peddler in Colony games.

Also, with the introduction of Graverobber, we might have to rethink the "Feast isn't an engine card so much as an engine enabler" blanket statement. Graverobber/Feast/Duke? Probably too slow most of the time, but I'm sure there'll be cases where it isn't (would Village or Farming Village help?)
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