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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage  (Read 156488 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #200 on: August 06, 2012, 07:11:14 pm »
0

If you're trying to start a Conspirator chain, playing Poor House can't hurt you unless you've played a virtual $ village, like Bazaar or Festival.  It'll just keep you at 0 coins, which is totally fine, given that you'll be playing lots of Conspirators now.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #201 on: August 06, 2012, 07:12:00 pm »
+1

One nuance of the Poor House that I feel we have skirted, is that the negative effect of treasures will hit each poor house, not just to first, so if you have 2 poor houses and a copper (and 2 actions), you end up with 7 to spend. With a single poor house, you are guaranteed at least 4, but 2 poor houses to not guarantee at least 8 in the same way. I suspect we will find some situations (more than very limited, but less than many) where one poor house is useful, but due to diminishing returns, there will be fewer situations where 2, 3, 4, etc poor houses are a good idea - situations like those mentioned where you can reliably empty your hand of almost all your other treasures.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #202 on: August 06, 2012, 07:13:30 pm »
+1

I just implemented Sage in Dominate, and interestingly, taking the included Scheme/Witch bot and replacing Scheme by Sage results in a bot that's a lot stronger (winning 63/37). I thought that I'd prefer Scheme every time, but maybe not.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #203 on: August 06, 2012, 07:19:57 pm »
+3

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 07:22:52 pm by Wolphmaniac »
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CaptainNevada

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #204 on: August 06, 2012, 07:20:10 pm »
0

I'm assuming the Graverobber is going to be affected by cards that events that alter the cost of cards (bridge, highway, peddler, quarry).  Because card worth using in that way is worth abusing in that manner.  Fishing Provinces out of the trash is possible with cost reducing cards, making Swindlers who hit them somewhat more interesting.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #205 on: August 06, 2012, 07:21:51 pm »
+2

Not sure if this has been commented on yet, but I like how the lower limit on Graverobber hints at things yet to come. I assume it's not on there just to stop us from picking up those sweet estates our opponents were foolish enough to trash, and I'm excited to find out what those reasons are.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #206 on: August 06, 2012, 07:23:34 pm »
0

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Not quite, you'd have to have two $5 cards in your hand since Graverobber gains to your deck, not to your hand.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #207 on: August 06, 2012, 07:23:39 pm »
0

Not sure if this has been commented on yet, but I like how the lower limit on Graverobber hints at things yet to come. I assume it's not on there just to stop us from picking up those sweet estates our opponents were foolish enough to trash, and I'm excited to find out what those reasons are.

Embargo.  But probably other things as well!
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #208 on: August 06, 2012, 07:25:02 pm »
0

One nuance of the Poor House that I feel we have skirted, is that the negative effect of treasures will hit each poor house, not just to first, so if you have 2 poor houses and a copper (and 2 actions), you end up with 7 to spend. With a single poor house, you are guaranteed at least 4, but 2 poor houses to not guarantee at least 8 in the same way. I suspect we will find some situations (more than very limited, but less than many) where one poor house is useful, but due to diminishing returns, there will be fewer situations where 2, 3, 4, etc poor houses are a good idea - situations like those mentioned where you can reliably empty your hand of almost all your other treasures.

Since I suspect a sub-theme of the set is doing amazing things with cheap cards, Poor House is going to change how you play your hand.  Discarding copper instead of estates is better in Oasis; Cellar can get rid of those pesky treasures, and Secret Chamber can be exploited (assuming you get a + action somewhere) to get rid of the treasures before Poor House is played. 
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #209 on: August 06, 2012, 07:25:40 pm »
+1

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #210 on: August 06, 2012, 07:30:23 pm »
0

Not sure if this has been commented on yet, but I like how the lower limit on Graverobber hints at things yet to come. I assume it's not on there just to stop us from picking up those sweet estates our opponents were foolish enough to trash, and I'm excited to find out what those reasons are.

Well, at the very least, it makes it so the trash fills up with juicy actions, so people can't waste grave robber plays trashing estates and such. But yeah, I bet there will be other cards which  interact with cheap trash cards too.
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Wolphmaniac

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #211 on: August 06, 2012, 07:31:07 pm »
0

I'm assuming the Graverobber is going to be affected by cards that events that alter the cost of cards (bridge, highway, peddler, quarry).  Because card worth using in that way is worth abusing in that manner.  Fishing Provinces out of the trash is possible with cost reducing cards, making Swindlers who hit them somewhat more interesting.

Peddler and Quarry do not affect any prices until buy phase, so Graverobber will not interact with these cards in that way. 

Theoretically, yes, Highway and Bridge will be nice with Graverobber so you can gain huge cards from the trash.  On the other hand, it is quite rare for Provinces (or better) to be in the trash in the first place, so it will be very rare indeed to gain anything of real substance from the trash.  The real killer app of Graverobber is trash a $5 action >gain a Province, or trash a $3 action > gain a gold.  I would bet that the trash-for-benefit option is the choice on 90% of all Graverobber plays.  Most of the time there won't even be a $3-$6 card in the trash to gain, and even if there is it will still often be preferable to take the trash-for-benefit anyways.

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Not quite, you'd have to have two $5 cards in your hand since Graverobber gains to your deck, not to your hand.
Sorry, I don't think I understand.  I think what I wrote is legit...

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
...and this is absolutely insane!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 07:36:34 pm by Wolphmaniac »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #212 on: August 06, 2012, 07:40:04 pm »
+1

Not sure if this has been commented on yet, but I like how the lower limit on Graverobber hints at things yet to come. I assume it's not on there just to stop us from picking up those sweet estates our opponents were foolish enough to trash, and I'm excited to find out what those reasons are.

Embargo.  But probably other things as well!

I don't think Embargo is a reason for that restriction.  There are only so many Curses available, so another Embargo doesn't really matter.  You can already TR- and KC-Embargo.  And using Embargo on a Possessed turn doesn't trash the Embargo either.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #213 on: August 06, 2012, 07:43:40 pm »
+1

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Not quite, you'd have to have two $5 cards in your hand since Graverobber gains to your deck, not to your hand.
Sorry, I don't think I understand.  I think what I wrote is legit...
Yeah that is legit now.  Before the edit you talked about KC-Graverobber and nabbing two provinces.  I think my post came right as you were editing things, sorry.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #214 on: August 06, 2012, 07:45:14 pm »
0

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.
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CaptainNevada

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #215 on: August 06, 2012, 07:46:11 pm »
0


Theoretically, yes, Highway and Bridge will be nice with Graverobber so you can gain huge cards from the trash.  On the other hand, it is quite rare for Provinces (or better) to be in the trash in the first place, so it will be very rare indeed to gain anything of real substance from the trash.  The real killer app of Graverobber is trash a $5 action >gain a Province, or trash a $3 action > gain a gold.  I would bet that the trash-for-benefit option is the choice on 90% of all Graverobber plays.  Most of the time there won't even be a $3-$6 card in the trash to gain, and even if there is it will still often be preferable to take the trash-for-benefit anyways.


Outside of the stray Swindler and Saboteur , the only time I see high value cards in the trash is very close to the endgame where it is worthwhile to trash big stuff for big gains (Salvager, Apprentice).  A zero-sum gain of victory points is a good trade by the player in the lead since the trash was previously off the table.  Graverobber puts them back into the supply, and Bridge / Highway tricks are something to consider in both using the strategy and responding to it.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #216 on: August 06, 2012, 07:46:31 pm »
+1

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.

If you have 4 highways, 2 KCs, 2 Sabs, and 2 GRs, and your opponent already has 6 provinces, you don't deserve to live.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #217 on: August 06, 2012, 07:47:29 pm »
+2

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Not quite, you'd have to have two $5 cards in your hand since Graverobber gains to your deck, not to your hand.
Sorry, I don't think I understand.  I think what I wrote is legit...
Yeah that is legit now.  Before the edit you talked about KC-Graverobber and nabbing two provinces.  I think my post came right as you were editing things, sorry.

Shit, busted.  :)  Is there anything worse than posting something, then realizing it's wrong about 30 seconds later, then getting the edit in lickety-split but someone still busts you anyways?  It's almost as bad as having your opponent open 5/2 on a Mountebank/Chapel board.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #218 on: August 06, 2012, 07:48:36 pm »
0

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Not quite, you'd have to have two $5 cards in your hand since Graverobber gains to your deck, not to your hand.
Sorry, I don't think I understand.  I think what I wrote is legit...
Yeah that is legit now.  Before the edit you talked about KC-Graverobber and nabbing two provinces.  I think my post came right as you were editing things, sorry.

Shit, busted.  :)  Is there anything worse than posting something, then realizing it's wrong about 30 seconds later, then getting the edit in lickety-split but someone still busts you anyways?  It's almost as bad as having your opponent open 5/2 on a Mint/Fool's Gold board.

FTFY
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #219 on: August 06, 2012, 07:49:18 pm »
0

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.

If you have 4 highways, 2 KCs, 2 Sabs, and 2 GRs, and your opponent already has 6 provinces, you don't deserve to live.

I can't wait to see the first script from someone pulling this off!
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #220 on: August 06, 2012, 07:50:05 pm »
0

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.

A more realistic play: KC-KC-Highway-Sab-Graverobber.  Draw 3 cards, trash 3 cards worth 6+, then steal them all.  Bonus points awarded for stealing your opponent's KCs because he's trying the same trick.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #221 on: August 06, 2012, 07:51:47 pm »
0

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.

A more realistic play: KC-KC-Highway-Sab-Graverobber.  Draw 3 cards, trash 3 cards worth 6+, then steal them all.  Bonus points awarded for stealing your opponent's KCs.

I'd like to pedantically point out that you won't gain trashed Colonies this way.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #222 on: August 06, 2012, 07:52:10 pm »
+1

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.

A more realistic play: KC-KC-Highway-Sab-Graverobber.  Draw 3 cards, trash 3 cards worth 6+, then steal them all.  Bonus points awarded for stealing your opponent's KCs because he's trying the same trick.

KC-Highway will only give +3 Cards +3 Actions...  you realize the cost-lowering can't be KC'd, right?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #223 on: August 06, 2012, 07:53:59 pm »
0

KC-KC-Bridge-Saboteur-Graverobber
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
« Reply #224 on: August 06, 2012, 07:55:36 pm »
0

This has just reminded me - we now have more cards to make Dominion limericks out of!
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