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WanderingWinder

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2012, 03:35:17 pm »
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When the rest of the set gets leaked/reported, do we want to post the rest of our predictions here, or in a new thread?

As is, the relative power level will be, I think, something like this (of the ones we've seen): Cultist, Hermit (Madman), Squire, Sage, Graverobber, Pillage (spoils), Feodum, Rats, (Shelters, ruined Market)

eHalcyon

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2012, 07:08:59 pm »
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When the rest of the set gets leaked/reported, do we want to post the rest of our predictions here, or in a new thread?

As is, the relative power level will be, I think, something like this (of the ones we've seen): Cultist, Hermit (Madman), Squire, Sage, Graverobber, Pillage (spoils), Feodum, Rats, (Shelters, ruined Market)

I will vote New Thread because gauging an entire set is different from gauging three cards at a time.
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ftl

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2012, 07:30:32 pm »
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Sure, new thread would work. Presumably people won't necessarily want to talk about each card individually - though maybe. And some people will come in having played a little with the cards. New thread it is.
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Qvist

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2012, 03:44:20 am »
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I will edit my post in this thread because I like to have all speculation at the same place.

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2012, 04:08:30 am »
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Oh, ok. Well, that's good too then. I guess I'll just go wit the crowd, whatever people like.
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eHalcyon

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2012, 12:23:28 pm »
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Oh, ok. Well, that's good too then. I guess I'll just go wit the crowd, whatever people like.

Same.  That's why I said "vote". :)
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2012, 12:32:26 pm »
+1

I dunno... I think having each post discussing 26 additional cards (as well as combos) will just be madness.
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2012, 06:18:39 pm »
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Ruins
Update: Yes, 3 of the other 4 Ruins are +1 Card, +1$ and +1 Action. Ruined Library, Ruined Mine and Ruined Village respectively. Ruined Village is the worst of them all because it's only useful in rare edge cases. Ruined Market is very occasional, can even help, but more often useless. Ruined Library is bad in general because you draw the card you would have drawn without spending that action. Ruined Mine is a Copper for spending an Action of course bad too, but less useless as the other ones I think. Then there's Survivors which is a Ruined Navigator. Hard to rank these yet, but I would say: #1 Ruined Mine, #2 Ruined Market, #3 Survivors, #4 Ruined Library, #5 Ruined Village

Vagrant
A mix of Laboratory and Scout. But I like to compare it to Pearl Diver. If it fails you know at least the card on top of your deck. Pearl Diver knows the bottom card which is worse. It it hits you have a Laboratory and this is especially nice with Nobles/Harem/Great Hall etc. If Pearl Diver hits, the card is on top of your deck which might be better, but can also be worse. I think this will be generally be better, but still very ocassional and no power $2.
$1/$2 #11 out of #19

Fortress
Another vanilla village for $4 with a benefit. Of course it really depends from trash for benefit cards on the board. I think some crazy combos will be possible with this, but this will still be no power card. Worker's Village, Farming Village, Mining Village and Walled Village will all be more useful on average.
$4 #41 out of 49

Ironmonger
So, this is a spy with no attack part, but a bonus for you. I think that's more useful. Especially if you draw a victory card, you can discard it (bonus) and draw an additional card (Lab bonus). That can be pretty strong. If you hit a treasure, you have a Peddler which is a solid $4 card and if you hit an action card you have a village. That's probably the least useful case because similar to Tribute you don't want to depend building an engine on swingy draw, but still may be a useful addition to any engine. A solid mid-ranged card.
$4 #21 out of 49

Procession
The comparism to Throne Room is obvious. While you can do TR/TR/X/Y as a village replacement, you probably don't want to build an engine with Procession like that. If there's no Action card available in a specific price slot then this is a one-shot TR. When there's a strong board with good cards on every price slot, then this is going to be better than TR. But how often will that be the case? I think the "exactly" makes it very board-dependant and therefore weaker in general than Throne Room.
$4 #28 out of 49

Scavenger
Wow, that's now the better Chancellor. And I think putting one card on top of your deck is huge for $1 more. Let's say you have an engine and you play a village and then Scavenger and have another village or cantrip in hand. You can now choose which card you will draw with that cantrip. Pretty powerful in engines. I'm not sure how powerful this is in Big Money games, but putting back Golds is also powerful. Scavenger/Stash is now even more powerful than Chancellor/Stash. With 2 Scavengers and 3 Stashes you basically have a guaranteed Province.
$4 #8 out of 49

Band of Misfits
Crazy card which seams really powerful. The big restriction is that you can only can choose up to $4. Interesting is also that it doesn't say "up to $4". So you don't get benefit from Highway+BoM. This will be good with trashers on the board because they often cost less than $5 and are often not in hand when you need them and are terminal. So, if you draw it with your trasher, play it as a cantrip and then play your trasher. It's flexibility is good, especially with a strong board. I haven't read the whole thread about that card that already exists, but yeah, it can produce some crazy edge cases rule-wise I just don't try to imagine.
$5 #14 out of 54

Bandit Camp (+ Spoils)
That's another vanilla village which gains a one-shot Gold each time you play it. I still have a really hard time trying to figure out how good one-shots are. $5 for a village is still very expensive and I don't know if I rather want a Bazaar for a guaranteed $1 everytime or gain a one-shot Gold. I think with some extra-buy this card can really accelate building an engine. But I think it's worse than Bazaar.
$5 #28 out of 54

Count
So many choices. Let's evaluate all 9 choices:
#1) Discard 2 cards, $3 => an expensive Horse Traders, good in cursing or Alternative victory card games
#2) Discard 2 cards, trash your hand => I think this is rarely chosen, maybe with 2 Mountebanks and 2 curses in hand?
#3) Discard 2 cards, gain a Duchy => Option #6 and #9 are better IMO
#4) Put a card on top of your deck, $3 => Mandarin without the on-gain
#5) Put a card on top of your deck, trash your hand => if you have a 5/2 split this is your choice as pseudo-Chapel.
#6) Put a card on top of your deck, gain a Duchy => Duke games where you put the other Count or a Silver back!
#7) Gain a copper, $3 => In the late game very useful
#8) Gain a copper, trash your hand => rarely used I think
#9) Gain a copper, gaine a Duchy => Another good option for Duke games
I think the flexibility makes this a good card in some situations although its choices are often only a $4 card. Still hard to evaluate because of the many choices.
$5 #34 out of 54

Altar
Would be a crazy good opener. That's the reason it costs $6, I suppose. You basically have free choice what to gain, so a very strong card. What do you expect from a $6 card? Trash a Cultist, +3 Cards, gain another one... Of course there's the risk that you can't play it because you have lots of good cards in hand. Beware playing with it with Golem. Definitely superior to Gold if your building an engine.
$5 #5 out of 15

I added also my list predictions.

Updated

platykurtic

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2012, 03:12:23 am »
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I've updated mine regardless
Quote
Vagrant - Scout lite, but almost certainly more useful, being nonterminal. at 2 you can buy it on bad draws and extra buys, the opportunity cost is suitably low. Then it's a cantrip in your deck with a chance of being a lab dependin on how muck crud is in your deck. Of course when it is a lab one of the cards is most likely useless. It's better with action ruins, shelters and victories. Overall it's a solid 2, I'd almost always buy it over nothing on a 5-2

Fortress - A village that untrashes itself. If there's no trashers it's an expensive village, but sometimes that's enough. The primary use seems to be trash for benefit cards, since you get the benefit and the village back. Of course you can't play it as a village first, so with a terminal trasher unless you have other +actions first the village is a dead card. Engines could make the best use of this presumably. Unlimited bishop tokens at last! seems a bit specialized, but fun to build strategies around

Ironmonger - Seems a bit weak at first glance. It's randomly either a village, a peddler, or a lab (or just a cantrip if you hit a curse, etc.)  I guess the possibilities synergize with the game phases though. As an opener it's a peddler and sometimes a lab. If you have shelters it seems dramatically worse as an opener. Then as you get more action cards it gives you more actions to play them with. Finally as you green it turns into more of a lab. Since you can discard the second card you draw it's got extra cycling and if you hit a victory card you can get the next card in your deck. And in BM games it's going to stay a peddler. I guess I've kind of talked myself around to it, it will be neat at least.

Procession - Throne room then upgrade. I like it. I'm really curious if it will enable a real turbo-remodel strategy. Certainly it can't go to VPs, but doing two things at once is always surprisingly powerful. Used on any +action card it's a village, so it fits into some crazy upgrading engine I'm imagining. It would really take a good chain to work though. Otherwise it lets you upgrade your actions while feeling like you got some value out of doing so. I'm really looking forward to this one

Scavenger - Chancellor fixed? The only difference is topdecking a card of your choice. If that's the end of your turn, you get the best card in your deck in your hand next turn (unless it's in play or something). That's nice, and certainly more incentive to do so. Rather than knowing that your new cards are more likely to show up in the future, you get one immediately. As part of an engine, you can guarantee what card you get next, including ones you've just gained, which has got to be worth something in the right engine.

Band of Misfits - Wow, I can't even start with this one. Clearly if you're buying this you could have bought any of the cards you might mimmick (barring highway tricks). Actually with highway, after one highway you can start using BoMs as highways. Certainly the flexibility has to be a boon to getting your engine going. I see there's a whole thread about the special cases already, so I won't even speculate. At five though, there's lots of competition, so you really need a good reason to be mocking up lower cost card.

Bandit Camp - Expensive village that gets you one-shot golds. I guess it's effectively like buying a village and gaining a single gold, since you'll be using up your spoils about as fast as you gain them. That's not too shabby in a kingdom where you want both actions and money.

Count - The most complicated card so far? Choose a negative and a positive. Some of the negatives can be positive in some circumstances, like discarding tunnels or topdecking terminal actions. The benefits seem a bit lackluster though. Trash your hand is only likely to be useful in the very early game and may never hit well. A terminal gold for 5 isn't usually worth it. Duchies you don't want until the endgame, unless you're on an alt-vp strat. But flexibility is good and I see this enabling some really weird strategies.

Altar - A deck thinning university minus the actions. You're not getting this in the early game with the 6 cost, and if you have good trashers you'll be out of crud before you get to this card at all. So by the time you get this the cards you really want to trash will be mixed up with better cards and this will be harder to hit. You're not getting gold, so this seems more like an engine acceleraor
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Qvist

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2012, 03:24:50 am »
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Band of Misfits - Wow, I can't even start with this one. Clearly if you're buying this you could have bought any of the cards you might mimmick (barring highway tricks). Actually with highway, after one highway you can start using BoMs as highways.

No, that doesn't work unfortunately. It says "costing less than it" not "costing less than $5" if you play Highway, both Highway and Band of Misfits still cost the same.

ftl

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2012, 04:37:03 am »
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Well, I guess I'm updating my post here with my predictions of the spoilered cards. I'll probably do the same for the full set.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2012, 11:34:31 am »
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Predicting Mint/Squire will be a top tier opening (up there with Mint/Fool's Gold)

Open Mint/Squire
Play Squire, gain a silver, and use the +$1 to buy either another silver or squire (if you can)
From then on, big money, while using mint to gain even more silvers and squire for all kinds of purposes
If there's a trasher on board, even better
-- If there's an attack on board, even better still

Also voting Watchtower for card that will most climb up in rank (it combos very well with a lot of dark ages cards)
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axlemn

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2012, 02:40:19 pm »
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My projections: 

Poorhouse will perform like crossroads.  A technical card that can be used amazingly in some decks, but usually nothing game changing by itself. 

Graverobber will play will play like either Smugglers or Minion, since you're racing your opponent to get to your trashed cards.  Except that unlike those, where you are racing at the beginning, you're racing at the end, so it's much more fun, and leaves way more room for building.  I imagine this will be used when there's a good trash-for-effect or a strong engine building around 5's.  Or you really need a hermit back. 

Hermit will be used to supplement non-buying strategies like HOP in a similar, but different way to Tactician.  They're also cheaper and less stable (supply can likely run out), so you will usually need to transition out.  There will be a similar effect to Chapel, where cantrips will sometimes not find anything to draw.  Except here that's much more dangerous. 

Squire needs a trasher to get its effect.  How good it is will depend mostly on the trashers and attacks.  It's well-named. 

I like Rats. 

Not sure how I feel about Pillage because it's one-play only.  It's /so/ mean combo'd with other attacks.  But you generally would only want it when the 2 spoils are worth missing out on the gold turn you'd get from getting most other 5-costs.  It's the old economy - attack tradeoff.  A great card, but there has to be some need or specific benefit to the immediacy.  If you'd do just as well with a gold, well, the 5-cost you discarded from your opponents is about the same as the non-benefit you just got.  Discard golds, plats, KC's, and really explosive engine pieces.  Not much else is probably worth it. 

I like Cultists.  I hope the ruins are all bad enough that there's not much randomness there. 

Sage is a card I'm torn on.  It's going to be like scheme.  Absolutely a key card in ways I have no idea.  But you're often wasting your turns if you buy it without a plan. 

I like the nerfing of remodel with shelters.  Otherwise it's so strong.  And I like the ease of getting up to 20 in any game with them and fairgrounds.  Too bad I usually end up at 14 instead of 15 usually, I need to learn to count even higher now...

I really love fortress.  It's my ideal King's Court remade over.  The great "play twice" effect without repetitive spamming! 

Scavenger.  Man, I hope Donald X did a whole lot of playtesting on this one.  I trust him, and still, y'know, this this has a whole lot of randomness you can't get rid of.  Do you draw it turn 3 or turn 4?  Assuming it's not turn 5 and your 3 buy isn't Haven or Courtyard and doesn't reduce your odds like moat or a cantrip, that's a 50-50.  Massive swings in how good the buy would be.  Dominion's a fast enough game that such might just be game.  I hate it when that happens. 

Band of Misfits for Caravan or Tournament.  For Masquerade or Ambassador.  For Chapel or Crossroads.  Remake.  Remodel.  Armory, Ironmonger, Fortress, Scavenger.  Example of when not to use: Rats. 
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eHalcyon

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2012, 05:05:51 pm »
+1

Putting the leaked non-preview cards here.  My first impressions of the previewed cards are on the first page.

Altar: I think this will usually be a trap.  It is expensive and it's terminal.  University is easier to buy despite the Potion cost, and it gives +2 actions to boot.  The advantage of Altar is that you can also pick up Duchies and alt treasures.  But in general, I don't think it will be useful.

Armory: Although this is a Workshop-with-topdecking, I expect it will play out rather differently.  Workshop tends to be most useful in alt VP rushes (Gardens, SR), and Armory performs much worse than Workshop in this regard because topdecking VP is just not very good.  However, the topdecking makes Armory a decent card for picking up cheap engine components (all-important villages!) and maybe Silver if you think you'll need it.

Band of Misfits: Board dependent.  If there are many cheap cards that you could use (e.g. Village and Smithy) then BoM can be a good buy for the flexibility.  I doubt it would be a good idea to buy only BoM -- what are you going to do with $3 and $4 turns?  If you'd want BoM to use those cheap cards, you probably would do well to pick up those cheap cards directly as well.  BoM also competes with other $5 which it cannot emulate.  Those $5 cards will be stronger most of the time!

Bandit Camp: Kind of like Bazaar, with the money delayed.  It's interesting in that, as a Village, it tends towards Engine building.  But then it also adds an extra non-engine card to your deck... but that card will itself disappear after one use!

Beggar: This is a rather peculiar card.  It is a $2 card that is basically a terminal Gold, but it severely junks up your deck.  Really good for Gardens decks, probably other alt VP as well.  It would also provide more Rat food.  Maybe useful to kickstart an engine with expensive pieces, if Sage is also on the board.  Use Beggar once or twice to boostrap up to Goons (for example), and spam Sages to skip past Beggar and the extra Coppers to find those power cards you got so early in the game.

Catacombs: Very strong drawing.  It is Oracle with 3 cards instead of 2, minus attack.  Oracle's attack isn't that strong anyway, and I think the third card here makes a big difference.

Count: Very interesting card.  Choose a drawback, then choose a big bonus.  It can be HT (without +Buy) or Mandarin.  It should be best in alt VP games where the Copper gain actually helps, or the topdeck effect can smooth draws.

Counterfeit: Not sure of this one.  As a Treasure trasher, you want it earlier, but $5 means you won't be using it as early as Loan, Spice Merchant or Moneylender.  However, the treasure-throne effect can be huge, depending on what you pair it up with.

Death Cart: Incredibly powerful in the right situations.  Makes a very strong partner with Rats.  The on-gain penalty hurts, but is mitigated in that those Ruins can feed the Death Cart.  With a bit of shuffle luck, this couuld give you a turn 3 Platinum...

Forager: Similar to Trade Route but counts Treasures in Trash instead of VP purchased.  Also, it's non-terminal!  As with TR, an issue is that your trashing to build up Forager is just as beneficial to opponents, who can piggy-back off of your hard work.  It is nice that it is a non-terminal trasher.  I can see this being a very solid buy.

Fortress: It is just another $4 Village-with-bonus.  This particular bonus could give rise to some very interesting interactions.  You can use it as infinite fodder for the many new cards that make trashing a penalty (e.g. Death Cart).  You can use it as infinite fodder for TfB cards (Bishop, Apprentice).  You can use it as a hilarious Swindler/Saboteur defense (if your Swindler trashes your opponent's Fortress, it goes into their hand -- oops).  If there is no trashing on the board, this is still a fine card, just like every other Village.

Hunting Grounds: Not really a fan of this one.  Vanilla +4 cards is rather boring.  The on-trash effect is interesting but rather niche, made more niche in that it needs another card that can trash it.  The on-trash effect will generally only be useful when the game is about to end.  Might be good to quickly pile out the Estates.  Especially good for SR that way.  For the main effect, HG will be most used in Engine games that need the draw.  Hard to say if it would be any good for BM games, since it is competing with Gold.

Ironmonger: Looks strong.  It is a cantrip.  If it finds an action, it is a Village -- not bad.  If it finds a Treasure, it is a Peddler!  If it finds a VP, it is more than a Lab (in that you can discard that VP and draw something else).

Marauder: Deals out Ruins and gains Spoils.  With no immediate benefit, it doesn't seem that strong.  However, it is a $4 junker and it does net you a free Spoils, so it still sounds decent.

Junk Dealer: Peddler that trashes, or Upgrade that gives +$1 instead of gaining a new card.  I think it will be stronger than Upgrade, on average.

Market Square: A cantrip +Buy is very useful for most engines.  The reaction is nice, especially as you can activate it yourself.  Probably not something you want to open with (don't need +Buy that early) unless you are also picking up a trasher...

Mystic: Looks like an Action-typed Silver-with-benefit.  It's nice that it stacks with itself and also combos with Spy-type cards.  I think it will be decently strong.

Procession: Very strong in certain setups that have good Action cards at each cost level.  In most cases, however, I think TR will be stronger.  Having to trash the action can be very bad if there is no card you want at the next cost level, or if there is no card at that cost at all!

Rebuild: Opens up an interesting strategy of building up Estates to Duchies and Duchies to Provinces.  I wonder how fast it could be.  Might be interesting to spam Rebuild with the goal of leveling up all Estates (plus a few more that you purchase) to Duchies, then building all Duchies to Provinces.  Might also work by allowing your Provinces to be trashed into more Provinces, thereby running down the pile more quickly.

Rogue: The wording seems a little strange in that it says to "discard" first, and then to "trash".  That is, one of the discarded cards gets trashed.  But OK.  Presumably the target gets to choose the card to trash.  It'll be rather luck based... if you manage to catch out their Goons, that's too bad for them.  Or you might hit nothing at all.  Or maybe there is a Scout in the trash and you have to gain the Scout, hm.  I imagine this will be quite swingy.

Scavenger: Far, far outclasses Chancellor.  Especially egregious is the Scavenger+Stash combo.  You only need three Stashes, two Scavengers and an additional Stash or Scavenger to guarantee a Province every turn (you need the extra card to ensure that one of the Scavengers is in your deck after you draw).  I think it will be good.

Urchin: Weak attack, but it's a cantrip.  It should add some nice utility to draw engines with Governor and Council Room.  Urchin can become Mercenary...

Mercenary: Strong bonus, strong attack.  The forced trashing will sometimes be bad for you, but it'll usually be worth it I think.  Looks good.

Vagrant: A useful $2 consolation prize.  Cantrip, helps remove some junk.  As a bonus, it can combo with Mystic!

Wandering Minstrel: An excellent village for engines.  Scrying Pool will love it.

Ruins: Market is ocassionally useful.  Library doesn't hurt much if you have spare actions.  Discounting the -VP, Village is only better than a Curse if there is a draw-up-to card or in special cases like Conspirator or HoP.  Survivors is actually pretty useful if you have the actions for it.

Knights: The attack is the same as Rogue, but more reliable.  It is thematically interesting that Knights will trash each other.  At first glance, all the differently named cards looks like a godsend for Fairgrounds, but I have already read some other commentary where someone noted how Knights will likely take out a chunk of the unique cards you need for your deck, including your precious Knights.

No specific comments on their indvidual abilities.  Which knight is best will depend on the rest of the board.
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2012, 06:02:07 pm »
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Altar - seems kinda strong on the first glance, especially if you get it early. On the other hand, i hardly ever get expand, and this is similar.
Armory - topdecking workshop. I think this is rather weak, since I dont get Nomad Camp often either. A card you dont want that much is not that much better on top of your deck.
Band of Misfits - I like how i suggested something pretty close to this here, though i think i like mine better. Anyway, this will be pretty board-dependant, but with no strong 5-costers and lots of flexibility in 4s it might be really strong
Bandit Camp - Basically a village which gets you a gold when you first play it. Seems strong with an engine or if theres nothing strong at 5 (or you have too many of the 5-terminals already)
Beggar - i think this is insanely strong with duke, silkroad, gardens. I think id open with two of this when one of those altvp is on the table. Id even pass on the reaction in these games maybe, though that alone is strong enough to buy this if there are attacks (or not to buy attacks if your opponent gets it)
Catacombs - This looks strong in both engine and bigmoney games. on-trash effect is pretty neglegible probably.
Count - also strong with aforementioned altvp, but i think its rather weak without them.
Counterfeit - Nice for trashing coppers with a huge economy boost in the end.
Cultist - ruins-witch with chaining possibility. I think its a bit weaker than the original, since i dont think that this chaining mechanic will be good enough to compensate for giving ruins instead of curses. Still strong.
Death Cart - i guess this is quite strong in engines if you can trash ruins with it all the time. might also be a good opener to get a high-cost card early (theres even a decent chance you wont need to trash it)
Feodum - seems insane with trader, useless for vp without a silver gainer. not sure if jack or bureaucrat etc will be good enough to make it worthwile. Also nice early with trashers probably.
Forager - seems kinda weak, since it'll be even harder to power up than trade route and your opponent can just share the benefit if you trash something to it. At least its nonterminal.
Fortress - crazy combo potential with trash for benefit cards
Graverobber - doesnt seem strong to me on its own, might be with something else putting good cards in the trash
Hermit/Madman - nice megaturn setup, getting one of them early might be nice also
Hunting Grounds - pretty straightforward and probably strong, again i think the on-trash effect is neglegible
Ironmonger - looks like a pretty strong card for 4. i think id almost always get this over silver.
Marauder - looks very strong. its like seahag giving a gold on first play an giving a ruins instead of topdecking curse.
Junk Dealer - good early on, but you have to care not to get too many of those
Market Square - good if you can make use of the reaction or need the buy, prolly not worthwile otherwise
Mystic - decent card, but might be a trap easily ( i dont think scout + this will be strong enough)
Pillage - doesnt look strong to me. you can destroy an opponents turn pretty much once, but also play a useless card urself. then you get 2 one-time golds.
Procession - highly board-dependant, but can be insane with on-trash benefits on the played card
Rats - weak without trash for benefit, might work with them, but i think it can still be a huge trap
Rebuild - looks strong on the first sight, but the problem is you need to get it early to do something, but it helps your economy in no way except for the points it gives. sadly there are no 5-cost dual-type victories it works well with.
Rogue - this looks strong compared to graverobber, because if gives 2 money and has a nice attack or gain.
Scavenger - chancellor+, looks strong for spamming a card
Sage - similar in use to scavenger, but i think theres quite a danger to ignore your economy for it. also good beyond-silver card
Squire - nice if it can be trashed for a good attack, also good for enabling altvp
Urchin/Mercenary - if theres another attack on the board, i think the question is not if you want this or not, but rathher when you get it. Mercenary just looks incredibly good if you can get your hands on it early.
Vagrant - kinda like pearl-diver: cantrip with a little extra, but i probably hardly will get it over a more expensive card.
Wandering Minstrel - another strong village, this time for an engine
Knights - Funny concept, but they seem to be weaker than rogue, except if you can get the trasher early or something like that
Ruins - not that bad, you might actually buy the + buy one (or the others to feed to death cart)
Shelters - guess those wont change much usually in your general strategy. the most important thing will probably be them costing one

Just noticed Poorhouse is missing:
Poorhouse - Very good in an engine if you get rid of all your money, probably useless otherwise
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Qvist

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2012, 06:05:28 pm »
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I just editted my original post and accidently pressed F5. Nooooo!!!
Maybe I give it another try tomorrow. Maybe not!

david707

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #91 on: August 17, 2012, 11:58:22 am »
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Altar: It costs 6 so is directly competing with gold, I think this will depend on the 5 cost cards, it will be worth if there is a 5 cost card you want multiples of such as lab.

Armory: This seems better than Ironworks in most situations (it's not a combo with great hall/island) due to top of deck instead of some other minor bonus, seems a solid 4 that I'll buy quite often.

Band of Misfits: Depends heavily on the action cards costing less than it and the other 5 cost cards. You need two different strong action cards to make it really good, for example a Village and a card drawer so it can be used as either part of the draw engine.

Bandit Camp: A village that gives a one use gold, seems nice early on and/or if you need extra actions, however there are better 5 cost cards, but not many 5 cost cards provide 2 actions.

Beggar: The main problem is in most cases you don't want to use the action, however the reaction is quite strong so may be worth it if there is attacks.

Catacombs: An improved Smithy and quite a strong 5 cost card.

Count: A strong trasher that can be used for other things, a good early 5 but you probably don't want many of them.

Counterfeit: Good early on for trashing coppers for money and layer on you can trash a gold and have enough for a province (with 1 spare) or trash a platinum and have enough for a colony. Could be kinda crazy with Bank. Overall a strong 5 that doesn't use an action, but you don't want too many.

Cultist: This compares poorly to witch unless you have enough to get use of it's effect that allows you to play another cultist and it's quite hard to get that many. You can use it as a bad witch then trash it, or try to get a "critcal mass" whee you chain them to draw cards. Overall a reasonable 5.

Knights: (Trash up to 2, 2VP, +2 Actions, Gain a card up to 3, +2 Coin)
The shared attack seems quite strong, but highly variable. I think the Trash 2, 2 VP and 2 Actions are significantly stronger than gain up to 3 and 2 coin. Overall a reasonable 5.

Death Cart: Using this as a one use +5 coin early isn't that great unless you can trash the ruins you also gain and can use those coins well (Platinum is in or +buy), so I think ti needs an action card that does something when trashed to be fully effective.

Feodum: Good if you can get lots of silvers, might also be worth buying to use with a trash for benefit card. Also, opening Feodum/Chapel seems good.

Forager: +1 Action, +1 Buy, +1 Coin, Trash a card. (As long as copper is the first thing you trash) seems good for 3 especially when compared with market (trash instead of draw), also you can trash a silver to make it +2 coin for the rest of the game which is likely worth it. Note that you do have to trash though. Overall a strong 3 I'll likely buy often.

Fortress: A 4 cost village that is really good with trash for benefit cards.

Graverobber: Gaining stuff from the trash seems good, as does expanding actions. Not sure how to judge, but seems a partly set up dependent good 5.

Hermit/Madman: Quite a strong 2, the top half compares well with workshop and if you don't buy anything it trashes for a madman. Madman is one use, but is very good, usually +2 Actions +4 Cards.

Hunting Grounds: Costly, but does give 4 cards and does something when trashed, will buy over gold sometimes.

Ironmonger: Compares well with Spy, a good cantrip.

Junk Dealer: Compares well with Market, a strong cantrip, but note the trash is not may.

Marauder: Compared with Sea Hag the attack is significantly weaker since it's ruins not curse and discard not top of deck, but you do get a one use gold which overall in my opinion makes it only slightly worse than sea hag, making it a strong 4.

Market Square: The top half is a cantipping +buy which is never bad, but is rarely good. The reaction is good though, so this is nice if your trasher and/or you need buys.

Mystic: At first I thought it was just a wishing well variant, since +2 coin is comparable to +1 card, but actually the fact it doesn't draw means it's a lot easier to know what your top card is. However this is still quite poor unless you do have a way of knowing your top card. If you have a way it becomes a good cantrip 5.

Pillage: The attack is very strong and gaining 2 one use golds is also very nice, the lack of if you do means more spoils using TR/KC and this card is amazing with Procession. This seems a strong 5, as long as it's not too late so you get to use the spoils.

Poor House: Most of the time this is bad, but in the rare cases you want it it's good. You want it when the proportion of treasures in your deck is low, for example gardens, against Pirate Ship, fishing village or black market combo.

Procession: A nice throne room variant, depends on whether there is an action you want to throne and a nice action card that costs 1 more than it. Works well with action cards that trash anyway like Feast and Pillage.

Rats: Acts as a nice intermediate stage for trash for benefit cards. For example, you could remodel an estate into a 4 cost card OR use rats to trash the estate gaining a rats, then remodel a rats into a gold, drawing a card. When trashing estates and coppers rats is better than remodel, but you need a trash for benefit card to use on rats.

Rebuild: This is a strong 5 that is kind of a mine for victory cards, basically you can name a victory card you don't want to trash (ie province).

Rogue: A strong 5 cos attack that turns into a reasonable 5 cost gainer.

Ruins:
To be continued...
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Copernicus

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2012, 04:49:54 pm »
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My terrible predictions!

---Six Dollars---

Altar -- Probably very powerful in any kingdom where you would want multiple $5 over a gold.  Or a cursing or ruins kingdom (Curse -> Duchy is pretty good for the end game).  The only annoying thing is the terminal action -- copper to silver isn't bad if I run out of cantrips, but my preference would be to make the coppers into good cantrips.

Hunting Grounds -- That's a lot of cards.  If a Big Money deck is sufficiently Big Money, +4 cards should average out to way more than $3 so it's a good buy.  Probably the toughest question is if it should be purchased before or after the first gold.

--Five dollars---

Band of Misfits -- I can see it being useful if there's a strong starting $4 or cheaper that gets weaker as the game goes on.  Sea Hag, Chapel, Remake, etc.  It would need a second useful thing to turn into.  And it would also need weak competition at $5 -- there are a lot of cards I'd prefer having over this.

Bandit Camp -- I think this is good if your deck needs a village.  I don't think just using it just to gain Spoils is worthwhile.

Catacombs -- I have no idea.  I think it's a lot like Harvest or Rabble.  Perfectly reasonable for the cost, but rarely a card that causes me to look at the board and think "This is going to be awesome".

Count -- I think it's good?  With so many choices it's possible that strong players will be able to use it very effectively.

Counterfeit -- Seems like the best $5 Silver.  I'm never going to out of my way to get it, but if a deck needs +buy (Goons!) or minor trashing it's useful.

Cultist -- Really good.  It might be the best $5 ever -- I'd hate to be at the receiving end of my opponent chaining even two of these together.  And it works insanely well with trashers after the ruins pile runs out.

Graverobber -- It depends heavily on the other trashers in a deck, unless it can be slipped into a fast enough engine.  Trying to line up Graverobber and other actions in the same hand is a bit too luck-dependent for me, and a $5 should do more than nothing if it doesn't meet the requirements in the early game.

Junk Dealer -- It seems good.  Probably most comparable to Upgrade, which I usually use to get rid of Coppers or Curses.  And this is slightly better in that instance.

Mystic -- Seems pretty good.  If the deck is light on trashing, it will be a gold more often than not.  It also does all the tricks you wished Wishing Well could do.

Pillage -- I have no idea.  It really depends on how good Spoils are.

Rebuild -- Good in a deck that isn't going to trash the Estates and doesn't have other alternate victory points.  Also lets someone green earlier because Duchy purchases aren't as bad.

Rogue -- I have no idea.

Knights -- I have no idea.

---Four Dollars---

Armory -- If I was purchasing a Workshop for the purposes of spamming something besides alternate Victory Points, it's worth it.  I think it would not work for a Gardens/Silk Roads/etc strategy.

Death Cart -- Who is buying corpses for that much?  It feels like a pseudo-Feast, and its value will probably depend on how easily it is to get +buys or other actions to trash.  Or a sufficiently small deck.  Also reasonably strong in the end-game struggle.  I'd probably grab it over a Duchy when the Province pile is at 4 or 5.

Feodum -- I have no idea.  Feels bad in a deck that can't spam silver.  Might be insane in a deck that can spam silver.

Fortress -- It's a village.  Very strong against trashing attacks. Should be good with any trash for benefit cards.  I can see purchasing it for any of the three options.

Ironmonger -- I would actually take a cantrip that gave me those options randomly.  So it's pretty good.  And with Ironworks, Dominion has taught me that Iron is a magical metal that assumes properties of nearby things.

Marauder -- One of the best $4 actions.  I'd put it just below Jack of All Trades and Sea Hag, and that's close.

Procession -- It's the Throne Room/Upgrade combo that I never wanted.  Probably the biggest weakness is that it needs good enough actions that I would want to trash them at each level.

Rats -- Someone will break a game with these, but it probably won't be me since I'm never going to touch them.

Scavenger -- It's the Chancellor I never knew I wanted, but am now happy that it exists.  Really strong with any deck that needs a specific card to start its combo -- like a Scrying Pool or a Village.

Wandering Minstrel -- It's a good village for decks that like villages.

---Three dollars---

Forager -- I think it's comparable to Trade Route both in function and how it will be used.

Hermit -- Sure why not, seems good.  Great Silver flooder and Madmen are pretty awesome.

Market Square -- I will probably buy this if a kingdom has any form of trashing in it.  Except for Rats.

Sage -- Really good until a deck starts greening.  Probably useful in the same way Scheme is useful, where a powerful attack is the most important consideration when purchasing it.

Storeroom -- Seems ideal for late-game when a deck struggles to put together hands due to greening.  Otherwise... meh.

Urchin -- I suspect I'll open Urchin/Urchin pretty much every time it's on the board unless there's an Ambassador or good $4.  Gets really fun if there's any village available.

---Two Dollars---

Beggar -- I think it's good, for a $2.  Pretty much depends on the deck -- I won't buy it if it doesn't combo or defend, but if it combos or defends it's great!

Squire -- This is good.  I'm half-expecting that the majority of my purchases of it will be for the +2 Actions.  Everything beyond a $2 +2 Actions/+$1 is great. 

Vagrant -- Sure, a Pearl Diver.  It's not great and I'll never want to purchase it, but if it's there for $2 I'll take it when I have $2 to spend.

---One Dollar---

Poor House -- Beggars hate the Poor House.  It needs to combo, but if it does it's good.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 07:43:27 pm by Copernicus »
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Piemaster

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2012, 07:55:59 am »
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Updated with (probably bad) analysis for the whole set.
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