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Author Topic: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game  (Read 31810 times)

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AJD

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2012, 09:24:47 am »
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So, Graverobber seems... pretty situational. Probably comparable to Mine in usefulness? Like Mine, it's a $5 Expand variant, restricted in terms of what cards it can trash, but with a bonus. More powerful if Throne Roomed, since you don't give your opponents a change to grab your trashed cards if you still want them.

Poorhouse... I can't even quite visualize how this will play. We all know it'll wreak havoc with Remake openings. Well, like the man says, seems like a card you'll need to specialize your deck around, with villages but no treasure. Probably slightly less powerful than Fool's Gold?

Sage... a decent early-game accelerator and counter to Ghost Ship. Sounds like a useful engine support card.

Feodum... sounds powerful. Donald says "If Golds count, man, I already wanted a deck with a lot of Gold," but, you know, I already wanted a deck with a lot of silver too. If you're going for a Feodum deck, trashing one increases your score if the number of Feodums you already have is greater than the number of points each one is already worth. (According to the OED, "feodum" isn't an English word, but it seems to have meant 'An estate in land... held on condition of homage and service to a superior lord, by whom it is granted and in whom the ownership remains'. The English word for that was "fee".)

Cultist... also sounds powerful. Ruins aren't quite as bad as curses, but they seem bad enough, and modulo that, Cultist seems like a stackable Witch.

Squire... useful engine enabler, similar to Hamlet but you'll need more of them since you can't get +action and +buy from the same one. Opening Squire/Chapel or /Steward or /Remake or whatever to get an early Goons or something seems quite powerful. Also, an addition to the short list of ways to get a potion-costing card (Familiar, Scrying Pool) without a Potion.

Hermit/Madman... exactly the kind of effect I wouldn't no how to use properly. Weak-to-okay early trasher, I suppose, but when to trade Hermit in for Madman is something that would give me no end of AP.

Rats...  could get pretty annoying to have in your deck after a little while, so you won't want them unless you have a good strategy for what to do with them. Sounds like a trap card for newbie, but experienced players should be able to pull of tricks of great finesse.

Pillage/Spoils... man, all these one-shot cards. Didn't Donald X one say people don't like one-shot cards very much? Anyway, Pillage seems like a decently useful card, but you want to be careful about Spoils, kind of like Treasury: if you go through your deck once with Spoils in it, you might get the impression that you've got a higher average deck value than you actually do. So if a lot of your money is in the form of Spoils, that doesn't mean it's safe to start greening.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 09:29:44 am by AJD »
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kn1tt3r

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2012, 09:30:40 am »
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So, here are my thoughts:

Graverobber
Seems like a neat card with some pretty funny self-interactions. It's sort of a mid- to late-game Expand which isn't useful for trashing at all but only for upgrading, which makes it a decent buy in many games. First impression: Not super-great most times, but helpful very often. A very tricky card that probably needs some experience.

Poor House
Quite probably crap in most situations and also very treacherous. As for Upgrade or Remake: Sure thing it's nice to get rid of Copper AND enhance your Poor Houses. But you will often get a Poor House for every single Copper you trash, and it is a terminal action. With some $3 village this could maybe work well, but otherwise it's just a huge trap. But it certainly will be fun finding out the situations where it is good or great, like with Spice Merchant or some Village/Vault combo kind of thing.

Sage
Not very exciting, but probably quite a good opening buy with Silver or a Silver equivalent. Much worse late game of course, so you probably don't want too many of them.

Feodum
What the hell is a feodum? Something about fee/feudalism and such? Anyway, I feel this is a damn nice card. The Trader-combo is way too obvious to even mention it, but I have the feeling that many times Feodum is bought for its second effect, which makes Chapel/Feodum or Masquerade/Fedoum quite decent opening. Possibly not a power card, but a very charming one with a self-synergy that is yet to be explored.

Cultist
Very intersting, a terminal action that is only non-terminal if it's played with other Cultists. An this looting attack... well, I think it depends on the badness of the "ruinses", but I feel this is quite a mild attack, especially if there are enough villages around. Maybe this could be an attack type that actually hurts money decks more than engines. The one-shot +5 cards is also very decent as an endgame boost. I PRESUME this will be not a top-tier $5 card and also a attack more on the weaker side (like Jester level), but especially the self-synergy (again!) could prove me wrong. But right now I cannot really imagine those big Cultist decks that ruin all kinds of stuff to no end...
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:42:55 am by kn1tt3r »
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Loschmidt

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2012, 09:32:48 am »
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Day 1

Finally the previews are here! My firsts thoughts were about how much like some fan cards these were. people had really been waiting for the $1 card and the trash gainer for a while.

<b>Grave robber</b>

We knew the trash gainer had to be trasher itself but I didn't expect it to be as good as an expand. But of course limiting it to actions really does limit it. I suppose its pointless unless people trash worthwhile stuff.  Why does it have a lower limit on the gain? Surely there's no worry if people want want to pick up coppers from the trash? That is perplexing.

This will be fun with other trash for benefit on the board. And it'll be interesting picking up other players trash. Would you change your strategy if there were suddenly good $5s you could gain? Seems it'll be a powerhouse with the right gainers. University would be a good combo.

Poorhouse

Such an exciting card. Will only be of any use on the right engine. This will allow for some fantastic turns though. cant wait to buy 4 or 5 at once. Can't possibly see how you use out in the absence of trashing or sifting.

Scribe

This is such a simple card. Where has it been for so long. Will out allow for engines without trashing given you can ignore coppers and estates? I hope so.

Day 2

Feodum

Everyone likes a bit of alternate VP to spice things up. I love that it's a silver pinata, that means it'll get use outside of being just an alternate VP.

Cultist

A junk-giving Lab with built in TfB. COUNT ME IN! Gonna be a favourite attack I reckon.

Ruined Market

Love it! So much more interesting than the expected confusions. Slightly apprehensive of the random aspect but i'm sure that'll come out in the wash. Its probably necessary to prevent you building a strategy around.

Day 3

Squire

A fun card. I love that evolves into an attack. The rest of the card is interesting enough to see use in the absence of an attack/trasher combo. Otherwise hard to predict. Seems fun though :)

Hermit/Madman

I'm having trouble predicting this one. It seems powerful, but ultimately insane? Hard to pull off? Gonna have to play around with this combo. The discard trashing ability is cute.

Day 4

Rats

YES! I love them so much. They're going to be a massive trap but so much fun to play around with. I can't wait to look at a hand full of rats and say, "OMG SO MANY RATS WHAT HAVE I DONE!" Also already we've seen soooooo much trashing in this set. Its beginning to make sense now.... And more built in TfB, combo combo combo

Pillage

A directed discard attack, seems so simple in idea but obviously this went through a few iterations before it settled on this. So powerful it has to be a one-shot, but you get some Spoils as a kicker. Seems fun.

Spoils

I really like this idea; disappearing gold. Seems destined to help you create treasure-less decks. Can't wait to see what the other Spoils gainers look like :D
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 03:33:06 am by Loschmidt »
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Fragasnap

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2012, 09:39:34 am »
+1

Initial impressions of the cards:

Graverobber: Graverobber looks to be a great way to handle trash gaining. It encourages trashing those good actions, particularly at the end of the game because it can "Expand" them into the Victory cards you need but then other players get free shots at the cards you junk. I'm not certain it will be worth $5 on every board, since it is a terminal action that you would likely want to use to gain terminal actions, but it will be good when it is. Trashing $5 cards (perhaps other Graverobbers even, if previous trash for benefits are any indication) into Provinces will probably be one of its strongest uses, but bumping a $3 action into Goons is perfectly viable when it shows up... oh, and Dukes. Is anyone else happy to see a card that makes Saboteur stronger?
I think Graverobber will be strong, but primarily in the mid to late game, only sometimes in the early game dependent upon what $5-$7 actions are available.

Poor House: Poor House is a $1 and it doesn't even suck like you'd think it would! I've played plenty of games in which I have very little treasure in any given hand, so I know I'd buy it sometimes. It will be particularly funny in games with Remake, namely that Remake will be made a lot weaker in the opening since the Coppers it would normally trash will be turning into terminal Poor Houses instead. But at least it makes the Poor Houses better by clearing out your deck of Treasures. Also: Subtraction on a card? What is this?
I think Poor House is going to be really strong when there are good trashers, but probably not so good in the opening. Also this pile can go fast since it only costs $1.

Sage: I love cards that search through your deck and Sage will probably be no exception. Digging like this (at this point I wonder why Mr. Vaccarino didn't define "digging" in Dominion jargon) tends to be a bit more powerful than one gives it credit for. It will probably be a real life saver in Mountebank games, but on average, it's just a better cantrip. Skipping Coppers, Curses, and Estates is really nice, likely hoping to cut straight to engine components, but it does have the opportunity cost of Silver. Sage\Tournament could possibly be pretty cool, but Sage does sift through your $0 Prizes.
I think Sage is going to be very nice to have and might be able to push draw engines forward a bit in games, particularly those with strong junking Attacks.
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DrFlux

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2012, 09:42:25 am »
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I like both poor house and sage, very interesting, and will definitely both have uses, though poor house will be more of an all or nothing card.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Grave Robber, outside of interactions with the rest of Dark Ages, will be fairly bad, and useful only for the second ability. You can't buy it early since you have no actions, and late you won't have time to benefit from gaining back the cards. The only real use will be gaining provinces from 5 card actions in engine decks, and this will be situational, since sometimes you will want to be buying duchies at this point of the game instead of Grave Robbers. Its a terminal, and removes a useful card from your hand. Will be overbought, like develop was.

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werothegreat

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2012, 09:44:10 am »
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Kahryl

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2012, 09:44:15 am »
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Graverobber: Loves boards with things like Kings Court, Goons, Lab, Nobles. Otherwise no idea how this will play. It will be amusing to have an army of zombie nobles.

Poorhouse: Isn't it obvious? Great with ways to trash copper + villages. Even greater if you find  a way to add card draw and +buy. Moneylender + Village + Margrave sounds like a dream here. Even in BM games this might be good lategame when things are getting cluttered and you have a spare +buy so might as well grab one. With two greens and two treasures this is still a terminal silver. I expect people will have fun finding ways to "conceal" their money, similar to how they hide it from Pirate Ship. For example, play a village, play this, then play your two great halls to draw treasures. So great hall combos with this in a minor way.

Sage: Similar-ish to Scheme, with the added benefit of working with money, and the lowered benefit of working with greens.


Day 2: Wow these cards look MUCH more fun. Not as weirdly cornercase/exotic as the first preview.

Feodom: You need a LOT of silver to make this work. I'm not going to buy silver for 12 turns just to power up a Feodom. Deck engines with +buy won't help either because my first superturn I'm going to ruin the engine with all the silver I buy! So calling it here, this will be a dead card (or at most, a cheap Duchy) in games that don't have good trash for benefit or special ways of getting Silver (Trader only?)

Cultist: Obviously comparable to Witch, but they don't draw each other dead. You can just keep buying them over and over, and if they're your only terminal source of draw there's no risk! I expect they will play similar to Ill-Gotten Gains: usually you want to rush them with 5+ unless you have a real plan to defend.

I wonder how all these benefits-for-trashing will play. They obviously make trash-for-benefits that care about the value of the card better (like Remodel, Salvager, Apprentice, but not Spice Merchant or Trade Route because you wouldn't want to Trade Route a good card normally anyway, so giving it a bonus for trashing is not game breaking). Did DonaldX think Salvager and the like are too weak and want to boost them? Because they will be *champions* in any Dark Ages game.

Ruined Market: Obvious what the other 3 are going to be. I'm going to guess that the last one is a really weak attack ("Starving Militia: Each opponent discards down to 4 cards in hand"). Of the 4 obvious ruins, I think this is the only one I might buy if I see it on the top of the stack. When you need a +buy you need it from anywhere!

Given how ruins are going to be easier to deal out than curses (if Cultist is any indication), that will make trashing of all kinds even BETTER. It will also make villages better; if you can't get rid of the ruins you might as well make sure they're not completely dead (Village + Ruined Smithy = Lab! Village + Ruined Mine = Peddler, etc)


Day 3: Like these cards too. I wonder if we're seeing power creep here, though - I found that in Magic: The Gathering, cards got more powerful over time not because they had "higher" numbers but because they had more options and more text. Look at these cards: they have lifecycle options for just about every board, and every situation. Their lives are "planned". Compare to Trade Route which doesn't have a coherent plan at all to be useful, or Moneylender which only has a plan early in the game. YOU had to come up with plans for these cards - they didn't come with a prepackaged story.

Squire: +2 actions, +$1 would almost be worth $2 by itself. This would be TOO good as a risk-free village, except that if you're building an engine deck and get this without a drawer, neither of its other options are appealing, either. You won't have enough money to use the +buys, and getting too many silvers interferes with engines. Still, this is a strong $2 even before the "trash for an attack" thing, so this is a pretty dense cake for such a price.

Hermit/Madman: Am I the only one that thinks the "go crazy if you don't buy something" will make this swingy? If I open Hermit/Silver, and draw Hermit-Copper-Copper-Estate-Estate, that's a bad situation. I play Hermit, burn the estate, grab a silver - good so far - but now I have to buy something or I lose my Hermit, and I still have 2 estates to burn! If there's a useful $2 on the board, great - if not, I have to make the painful choice of my Hermit going nuts or buying a copper that he can't even trash.


Day 4:

Rats: Too much fun. "Reveal a hand of all rats" is my new favorite card rule. Play a Rats to gain a Rats, Upgrade a Rats into an Upgrade, and you end up with a 4 card hand, and now your deck has lost a junk card and gained an Upgrade. Yay! Obviously, this will be strong when there's both good trashing and good attacks.

Pillage/Spoils: Looks weak at first. A one-shot to gain two one-shot golds? Uh, okay. However, this will more or less *ruin* your opponents' turn - "discard a card of your choice" is a lot nastier than it looks. Discard the one village in my hand of terminal draw. Discard the minion that you cleverly think you'll use to counter my discard. I guess I'd use this when there are some nice $6/$7 cards that I want to get FAST, rather than slowly growing my economy with the likes of labs and silver. Goons, Kings Court and the like.

BUT WAIT.. is this card political? Two weak players could make a deal to discard only Estates and the like from each other, to gang up on the strongest player.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 02:03:36 pm by Kahryl »
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chwhite

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2012, 09:48:03 am »
+2

Well then!

Graverobber: The fact that Graverobber only trashes Actions for benefit is, I think, going to be its big limitation.  That means you need an Action-heavy deck for it to be worthwhile, and since you generally don't like getting rid of your hard-bought Actions, it'll be tough even then.  Chaining Graverobbers up to Province just has to be slow and not actually worth it, like trying to build a Remodel deck.  It looks to me like it needs other trashing actions to be useful most of the time- either early-game trashers you can trash for benefit (something like Steward is going to be good here, since you don't mind getting it back), or the canonical TFBs Salvager/Apprentice which like to trash good cards to begin with.  And I'm sure there are Dark Ages-specific combos with cards we haven't seen yet.  But my preliminary thought is that this is not a card I am going to buy that often.

Poor House: Holy Zounds!  A $1 card!  That gives you $4!   Obviously super situational, but also pretty damn super when you can make it work.  I'm generally skeptical about terminal treasure as a class of card (see the discussion about Merchant Ship and Harvest), but this has the potential to be such an incredible value.  Obviously the havoc it wreaks with Upgrade/Remake is important to note- I'm inclined to think it just straightforwardly makes those two cards bad 99% of the time* when both are in the kingdom, and needs to be comboed with Villages and non-gaining trashers for full effect.  I am going to have fun trying to make Poor House decks work if these cards ever become available in an online implementation.

*Or, at least, bad openers.  It probably hurts Remake a lot more.

I am going to go ahead and say that Poor House is, at least for now, the best $1 card in the game bar none.

Sage: This card strikes me as something you do not want to buy in games where you also buy lots of Silver.  If you have a couple top-tier Actions you want to play as much as possible, and lots of other dreck- Curse games perhaps, then Sage will be a great digger.  If it just gets you Silver and stuff, okay maybe that's worth it in curse-filled slogs except why don't you just buy more Silver to begin with?  And if you have lots of trashing and not much dreck, it's likely to be just a cantrip.  I can see myself buying this more than Graverobber, but probably not all that often- again, unless Dark Ages leads to plenty of the sorts of games where Sage is likely to be best.

Oh, huh.  Sage feels a little bit like a half-Golem to me.  I could almost see a Sage/Counting House deck working.

...

Feodum: Ew.  Ew ew ew ew ew ew.  I really don't like that this card exists in this form at ALL.  I mean, sure of course there has to be a Treasure-counting alt VP card, but Silver-only still doesn't sit right with me even after Donald's explanation.  He excluded Copper because it would be too similar to Gardens, but Silk Road already plays very similar to Gardens anyway, so since when is that a disqualifying factor?  And I don't see why Kingdom Treasures need to be excluded, you don't always want them.  (Heck, sometimes I don't want Gold.)

As for the pinata ability, it's a double-edged sword.  Trashing Feodum for benefit for the Silvers and not actually going Feodum is, I suspect, going to be pretty slow and not necessarily better than just buying Silver to begin with.  C.f. Treasure Map, which is a bad card that gets you four golds when you line it up: and lining up Feodum/Trasher is easier, but the immediate benefits are far lower, too.  If you trash Feodum to get Silvers to feed your other Feodums, that's a tough tradeoff too.  What it does do, however, and I am frustrated just thinking about it, is throw a kick in the teeth of denial strategies.  For example, Bishop is a great Gardens counter, but if you're going for a slim Bishop deck you may not be as able to just blithely buy and trash Feodums.

Obviously, it's going to be great with Silver-gainers like B-crat and Explorer; I suspect a Jack deck will still just want to go Province anyway, though I could see it possibly grabbing Feodums over Duchy in the endgame.  In general this is a card that is going to be ill-suited to rush strategies, and instead feature mostly as cheap Duchies in silver-flood decks that get most of their points from Province.  I can also predict with confidence that I'm going to hate this card. :P

Cultist: I don't see how this can be anything but super strong.  While Ruins don't hurt nearly as much as Curse, a self-chainable junk-giving card that can find itself, and then gives you a bonus late-game when the Ruins are depleted, is going to dominate games nearly as much as Witch.  (This is because the fact Curse being a dead card is usually even more harmful than the -1 VP.)  I suspect chaining Cultists is going to be not very common in practice, because if all the players go Cultist like they probably should your deck is going to get junked up and it'll be hard to line them up often.  The when-trash bonus, however, is going to be really nice in games with trashing, which balances the fact that the presence of trashing is obviously going to take the sting off of Ruins a bit when it exists.

Ruined Market:  Yeah, as mentioned by others this is actually probably one of the more useful Ruins.  These things may not be as bad as Curse, but I sure as heck won't want a deck full of them.

...

Day 3!

Squire: Even without the on-trash ability, this looks like a nifty utility card for both engines and alt-VP matchups.  It can be half a Fishing Village if it collides with your other actions, it can be a mondo +Buy source (+2 Buys!  It's finally been done!), and Silver gain for $2 is a darn good value in decks where you want to flood Silver.  Compare just the silver gain option to Explorer: it gives you $1 less this turn (don't forget it always gives you a buck), and for that meager downside it's $3 cheaper and does so many more other things.  So, as a Silver gainer for alt-VP it's a fantastic value.  As A Village it's probably not a great value, but on boards where you need it it can't be much worse than the Natives; and the +Buys are great for both alt-VP and engine.  All this, and flexibility, for $2?  Seems damn strong for pretty much anything that isn't terminal draw BM.

And that's not even beginning to consider the on-trash effect!  Yikes.  I'm going to go ahead and say the on-trash effect is probably not nearly as powerful as it seems; it's the Treasure Map problem again that you have to line up your trasher and your Squire, which is often going to be an inefficient crapshoot.  Also, you may be overpaying for Squire, and in many kingdoms there either won't be trashing or there won't be Attacks.  (In general I'm not sure I like this proliferation of effects that are dead on certain boards, starting with Tunnel).  I can see it being a really good way to slingshot up to Familiar or Goons, but even the $5 Attacks I think I'll usually want to just buy the old-fashioned way.

Hermit/Madman: I...uh...wuh...buh.  I'm really not sure there's anything intelligent I can say about these two.  I kind of expected to see a trasher that rooted through the discard, actually, so that's neat.  The no-Treasure restriction makes it look JoaT-esque, and I could see it being used in that capacity (gain Silver, pitch Estate) on boring boards.  There are also probably going to be lots of other good cheap cards to get out of Dark Ages (Poor House, Squire anyone?), so it'll have some extra flexibility in engines that way.  But another thing I'm noticing is that the trashers we've seen so far- Graverobber, Hermit- both don't work on Coppers.  With Dark Ages' theme of poverty, it might be hard to get rid of those Coppers in general, which will ding Poor House for sure (and a lot of other cards).

As for Madman, I just have no idea.  When is it worth it to pass on your buy phase to get a Madman?  Just how powerful is it?  Obviously it's powerful, but you've got to jump through a lot of hoops for a one-shot.  I have no idea what do with it at all.  (Actually, that's a lie.  Horn of Plenty decks are going to love Madman.  But beyond that I'm totally stumped.)

...

Day 4:

Rats: A cantrip trasher for $4.  Pretty nice, huh.  Except if it's your only source of trashing it really is just going to spread through your deck like a plague (har har), and you'll be left with either a lot of dead cards or trashing everything good.  There's probably a way you can play with fire here- Bishop is the first thing that comes to mind- but my first impression is that you're likely to get burned pretty often if you go Rats.  Definitely looks like it needs some other source of trashing to be viable, and if you have other trashing that makes it less attractive in the first place. My first impression is therefore that this is probably really weak, but it could infrequently usable be part of a coordinated trashing strategy with something that doesn't hit Copper, say (Hermit!), and then ends up spending most of its Actions keeping the rat problem in check.  Which could work, but also could be more trouble than it's worth.

Pillage: Targeted discard!  And the way to balance it is to make it a one-shot, that's actually kind of brilliant.  At this point Donald is just pretty clearly f***ing with us.  Tomorrow's preview is goin g to include a cantrip Moat, you heard it here first.  Now, a one-shot $5 is hard to go for even if the shot is nasty, so it seems to include Spoils as a way to rebalance it.  The combined effect of one-shot targeted discard, with an aftereffect of two Golds in your next pass through, is that this looks like something that's going to be great for Big Money decks playing versus an engine.  Knock out your opponents' key card, and get a one-time cash infusion sure to be good for a Province or two. 

But it does nothing for you the turn you play it, which is more often than not the hallmark of a weak attack (Saboetur, Bureaucrat).  A nasty, nasty card whose power level I am very unsure of.

Spoils: Now, see, it would've been great if Feodums counted Spoils.  Though you'd have to store them up and not use them then.  I wonder if all the Spoils-giving cards are one-shots that give Spoils to provide recompense for their fleeting nature, or if one of them gets you a Spoils and sticks around.  That might make it easier to run this pile out.  Obviously most decks will be thrilled to add some Spoils to their warchest, but relying on Spoils as your primary source of income could lead to nasty over-greening problems after they're gone.

...

In general, yeah these Shelters are going to be better than Estates four you, yeah.  Also, more $1 cards! Necropolis in particular looks like it's really nice for making double-terminal openings more viable, the other two will be good to get out of the way but I can imagine preferring Estate to them once in awhile.  Shelters are going to really seriously hurt Remake, since getting Silver from your starting Estates is the reason it's so good; but on the other hand they will be yet another boost for Fairgrounds, even if 2/3 of them only actually benefit you as they leave your deck.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 10:32:30 am by chwhite »
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werothegreat

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2012, 09:54:35 am »
+1

Highway+Sage+Tunnel = Profit
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2012, 09:58:49 am »
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Highway+Sage+Tunnel = Profit

How is the highway necessary? If the sages draw more sages you can just play them too and hit your whole deck.

Tunnels cost $3.  Meaning the Sage would draw them.  Not discard them.
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2012, 10:20:03 am »
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So this will be my post (without reading the rest of this thread):

Monday, August, 6th (Cards 1-3)
1. Graverobber:
Not good for a 2/5 start, needs collision with other actions if no other trash for benefit is available (because the trash will be empty at first)
Can make a fast Gold out of a $3-Action or a good $5-Action.
If you have many Graverobbers, you can make Provinces consistently while refreshing your supply from the trash. Needs some form of money or $2-$3 Actions to gain / buy more Graverobbers.
Needs collision with other actions is a big point to consider, since your deck is mostly Coppers and Estates, which you can't trash with Graverobber. +Card engines (Laboratory, Caravan, Smithy-Village engines help increase hand size) Maybe double Tactician while playing Graverobber on both turns (1st to make Province out of Graverobber, 2nd to regain Graverobber from trash)

2. Poor House:
As said in the comments: This will make Upgrade better, if you aim for a non-Treasure deck. Problem is, you need something else than Silvers to make your Estates into, preferebly Villages. Upgrade works better than Remake with it, because of the +action on Upgrade.
In the absence of Villages or +buy, this card will be dead. Even more if you can't get rid of your Coppers.
Village + Vault/Secret Chamber/midrange trashing + this (+ maybe carddraw and +buy) makes for a good engine.
Can't decide what kind or trashing fits this card best, I think t4b is bad. Loan would be best, Moneylender, Steward, Chapel maybe 2nd place.

3. Sage:
I don't think, this works well with cardpile rushs like Garden or Silkroad, since these cards will be drawn mostly and Coppers which aren't that bad will be skipped. Maybe this can tutor for your Treasure Maps: 2-3 Sages, 2 Treasure Maps and only if you are unlucky and draw all the Sages and with the last Sage only one Treasure Map, it will be a clear hit. That is, if you start with 2 action cards in hand. Treasure Map + Sage in hand (with no other >$3 cards in deck) is a sure hit. Thing is, you must do without Silvers to buy both Treasure Maps.
This is true for most uses of Sage: with too much Silver in deck, you only exchange Sage for Silver, which is mediocre. A good use of this may be with Minions: You draw all the Minions in your hand and play them for maximum cash. That is: every Sage in your deck is worth another Minion (again when you have no Silvers). Works like Cellar without the -1 Card in this case.
Compares with Farming Village (and Adventurer):
Pro: doesn't find Coppers
Contra: will eventually find Provinces and Duchies.

So long and see you tomorrow for more first impressions of Dark Ages cards (I will keep on with the numbers)


Tuesday, August, 7th (Cards 4-6)
4. Feodum:
The first victory card of the set. One that counts Treasure was often suggested, and this along with Traders, gives Silver its usefulness. I wonder how it works in an Ironworks deck: Gain Feodum, buy Silver, end turn? Maybe with Haggler: Buy Feodum, gain Silver. To get them to 3 VP apiece, where they are - like Gardens with 30 cards - worth a Province in costs per VP, you need 9 Silvers, not too difficult to do. Maybe as with Gardens and Philosopher's Stones you can't build a reliable combo around it, that also fills your deck. The chance of collision with your trasher will decrease significantly. But maybe it can be a good starter as Trader, especially with Trader (7 Silver yeah!)

5. Cultist:
A nice way to chain action cards. The mechanic reminds me of the MTG ability Ripple: http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3Aripple&v=card&s=cname, but in the end it is just a "hurtful Laboratory" as Donald says.
The drawback to Laboratory is that you don't have a spare action after your draw, so you can't play a +buy action to gain more from your big hand.
I wonder how Looters aquit themselves against Cursers. I think the non-attack effect will be better, but the attack will be less hurting since you hand out Ruins and not Curses. From my gut feeling, I would always go for the Curser, unless it is Young Witch with a really good bane (or Ambassador / Masquerade, but you knew that already).
Speaking of Ambassador, I wonder how the return to supply, gain one with the same name works, if the pile is random. We will see...

6. Ruined Market:
Now that would go into the worst card ideas thread ;-). I like the method of shuffling all 50 Ruins (10 of each kind) and pull 10 for each opponent. This makes for much variation and might help those Fairgrounds players out there to up to another point per Fairgrounds. Good thing, that these cards (all of them?) are actions, so Graverobber can make some use of them by turning them into $3 actions or Silvers, and occasionally you might want to Throneroom a Ruins, at least decreases the chance of drawing Thronerooms without any action cards. It also has a nice interaction with Vineyard: The attack is actually giving you points.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 12:51:37 pm by Lhurgoyf »
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2012, 10:20:56 am »
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Grave robber: Often a trap - probably not worth spamming. Unless it's in the right deck it will often do nothing. Should be good in engines powered by 5 cost cards (hunting party). This also allows for some almost golden deck-like interactions - throne room+2 grave robbers=1 province each turn (needs a bit of support to stop it from stalling after getting 3)

Poor house: fantastic in money-less engines and quite good with non-drawing non-terminals and discarders, Really needs buys though. Otherwise it will usually be terrible, messing up upgrade and remake.

Sage: I think this will be good in similar situations to scheme: great support for some engines but also a solid opener with important (preferably non-drawing) 4s like remake and sea hag. Particularly good with mega turn type engines.

Feodum: Not worth rushing except with trader and maybe bureaucrat since getting it to 3 is normally so hard. Probably only worth buying with trash for benefit (where you want lots of silver) or when you hit 4 near the end of the game (even then it might not be worth 2 points). Particularly good tfb for the job would be apprentice since it will happily trash the silvers as well.

Cultist: Usually a must buy. Like a witch that chains like lab. Still not as good as witch since (I presume) curses are much worse than ruins. I don't think it will very often be worth buying after the ruins are gone. obviously benefits even more than curses from tfb.

Ruined market: obviously not a card that you're going to want very often. ruins will Make transmute a lot better (as will Feodum actually).

Squire: Ignoring the trashing part for a bit... +2 actions +1$ isn't too bad a village for 2$, with the extra options for when the actions aren't needed, this becomes competitive with vanilla village as an engine enabler (though the lack of +card really hurts). +1$ and gain a silver is pretty decent for big money too, using the actions when it intersects with your terminal(s). Now the trashing part... I feel like this will be less important than it seems. It will certainly be fantastic when you can open with this and a chapel (or remake, steward or any other early game trasher) and there's a nice attack which you can't easily buy (familiar!, or scrying pool, etc.) but usually silver will get you that attack faster. Anyway This looks like a really good, versatile, card.

Hermit: I honestly have no idea how good this will be - there's nothing to compare it to. Oh well, I suppose the whole point of this exercise is to make ridiculous predictions. Okay, obviously this will be fantastic for mega turns - get two or three madmen, easily draw your whole deck and play all of your goons, bridges or coppersmiths or whatever. The trashing and gaining (preferably villages of some sort) help for that too. This will definitely be one of the more consistent trashers (okay, the most consistent) since, on average, it gets to look at more than half of your deck. So certainly good for fighting off curses. Since it doesn't just trash, I will probably open with two of these on occasion.

Rats: You really need some way to trash these since they'll become dead cards fairly early. If you have no way to trash them, their own trashing will be pretty much useless - there's no point in trash one useless card if you simultaneously gain another. They could be pretty good with any tfb though, and there's a lot of that now. Rarely will it be worth buying more than one rats - get one early and they will take over your deck.

Pillage: Looks pretty strong, though its really hard to tell without anything to compare it to. Probably not a great opener since there's a danger that you'll only make them discard copper. probably best in the early to mid game so that you can make good use of the pillaging part but early enough that you definitely get to use both of the spoils. This of course makes grave robber a lot better.

Altar: Not great unless there's an engine to be built made mostly of $4-$5 cards. You really want to get this early. So usually ignorable but occasionally fantastic.

Armory: A workshop that doesn't want to gain gardens. Actually probably not too bad in rushes since its so easy to get armories quickly and empty the pile. Will be very good in other situations where workshop is good, though unfortunately there aren't that many of them, and also helpful for putting combos together if you can remember what's still in your deck.

Band of Misfits: This looks like fun. Will be worth a buy in most games since it is strictly superior (ignoring the cost) to any cheaper action in the supply.
works with: trashers, cheap cursers, luck dependent cards (like baron and salvager), engines with multiple parts and most of all, multiple good options.

Bandit Camp: Looks good. No need to buy money with this village. Really nice if you can draw your deck every turn (of course the spoils will make that a bit harder). In particular, good with heavy trashing

Beggar: Great when you don't mind copper too much, fantastic when you actually want it. The reaction part makes it counter stuff like minion pretty well.

Catacombs: Like most terminal drawers, decent for big money and a good engine enabler. The trashing part will occasionally help - In an engine using trash for benefit and cheaper cards (though even gaining a silver isn't too bad).

Count: Common usage of this will probably be: initially use it to trash (maybe only once) then use it mostly as a mandarin/horse traders, occasionally just gaining duchies near the end. Gain a copper and a duchy is pretty nice in rushes too, though I don't think it would often be worth buying more than one or maybe two counts.

Counterfeit: When trashing copper, this is a bit like loan with an extra +$ and +buy, though it's much better in the late game. A bit weak in the mid game when there's not much copper around and it's too early for you to want to trash any other treasures. Still looks pretty good, might even be good with big money. Obviously fantastic with spoils.

Death Cart: Good against looters, especially after the ruins have run out.

Forager: A bit like trade route. something you'll pick up if it's worth a lot of +$ (or it looks like it will be soon). Probably still not a great opener but a lot better than trade route in that regard.





« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 10:19:31 am by awdrgy »
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jonts26

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2012, 10:50:31 am »
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Graverobber: It's strength is highly dependent on other trashers. Unless there's a way to easily gain action cards, or trash for benefit, likely this card won't see much play since it's own trashing ability is so limited. But since Dark Ages is the trashing theme, I expect the utility of Graverobber will only increase as we get more cards. Right now I'd put it lower tier of $5 cards, and might bump it up as high as middling.

Poor House: I knew we'd get a $1 card sooner or later. It's a fun design space to explore. This card though, has the potential to get silly. But i expect it won't be worth it on almost all boards, though again, with the trashing theme of the set, it could be bumped up in value. This card screams engine (well it's not working in big money), but more card draw means more potential treasures. So again, you need heavy trashing. But when you get it, look out. $4 terminal action is just crazy. Probably a trap card most of the time.

Sage: Somewhat vanilla, but yeah. I don't think I'd buy it very often. It just finds me other engine parts, but you know, I could just buy those engine parts. Likely it will be at it's best when you can use it to spam a powerful terminal, probably a mountebank or something, but then your silver will just get in the way. Might make a fun combo with Fool's Gold decks. It does have a cute TR/KC interaction. You get to find 2 or 3 cards and you get the extra actions to play them.

Feodom: Victory card that counts treasures. B-Crat just got a bump. I expect trader to be its best friend. Jack might work, but I expect provinces with Feodom support is better. Harder to make a rush strategy than gardens/SR since emptying the silver pile is tough and emptying estates or whatever else won't add to your Feodom points. The pinata effect is interesting. In the right deck you might just buy this with intent on popping it (watchtower says hi).

Cultist: What I think is the first power card we've seen. Obvious parallel is witch. Both give +2 cards and hand out a bad card. Curse is obviously worse, but cultist has a neat chaining bonus and an on trash ability. I would think witch is still the stronger card. Curses are worse in your deck and you can't discount the  negative VP. It's going to depend on the other ruin cards and other cards in the set, but likely I am seeing cultist as anywhere from #3 to #8 on the $5 list.

Ruins: So ruins aren't great to have. The +buy from ruined market is probably the best bonus, but even that is going to suck as your source of buy. Obvioulsy better than curses. Probably enough so that cultist won't be the strongest attack, but strong enough for sure.

Squire: So, I have a hunch this will be a very powerful card. Non-drawing villages are typically a bit worse for engines, but at the cheap cheap cost of $2, you can load up on them. Well, you'll need extra buys, and hey this gives 2! Also the $1 should not be overlooked. So I expect this pile to drain pretty quickly whenever there's a viable engine, which seems more likely in dark ages thus far. All that alone probably makes this one of the better $2's but the on trash ability probably puts it in elite territory. ANY attack is of course going to vary from board to board, sometimes you get goons sometimes you get b-crat, and of course you need an outside way to trash it, so maybe the trashing bonus doesn't go used all that often, but it's strong enough when it does to make for some wild games.

Hermit: I think this card is most similar to Jack, though with a number of differences, obviously. You get to trash a non-treasure card from hand or discard, which is a lot stronger than jacks trashing, and hey, you can trash a curse from any cursing attack save sea hag right away. Probably a decent counter there. And the gain a card up to $3 is better than gain a silver, since silver is included in that list. The lack of drawing back up to $5 will probably make it a bit worse in big money than jack, but the other versatility will make it a good engine card assuming there are cheap engine components. The most interesting thing about the card is of course the fact that it can turn into another card. But I expect this to actually be the least useful aspect of the card. Madmen are just extremely hard to get since you have to forgo any buying and you only get 1 play of the madman card. Ok, there are non-buying engines around which will have a field day here, but I expect that's quite rare.

Madman: This card is silly good. It would never be printed as a supply card, but it works as it is. It's like a super powered crossroads. Tempered by the fact that you can only play it once and it so hard to get in the first place. I expect its the kind of card you'll take when you can, but you cant really plan a strategy around it. You'll just be happy for the occasional awesome boost it gives.

Rats: OK. What? So it's a forced cantrip trasher. Yay. But it gives you another one each play? Thematically it's a lot of fun, but this card is going to be terrible for most decks. Probably works with most TFB. Makes a super combo with Apprentice. Might work with hermit. Rats take care of the coppers, hermits take care of the rats.

Pillage/Spoils: A very nice attack. Discarding a card of your choice is very strong, but tempered somewhat with the 5 or more card clause and of course the trash on play. It's not quite fair to call this a one-shot since it nets you 2 more one shots. Maybe a 3-shot? Spoils is of course a one-shot Gold. Which is very helpful in ramping up your economy. The big problem with this card I think is going to be deck cycle speed. In a big money type game you get this after the first shuffle, play it on the second, and finally see the spoils after the third. By that time you are wanting to green, and spoils help with that, but that green is going to choke you very fast. Should slot in better with engines but $5 is a lot for a one shot attack, strong as it is. Probably a medium strength card most of the time. Will become very strong with cards that can gain it like HoP, Graverobber, and University.

Shelters: Well here they are. You start with one of each and you can't get more, but they may very well change the game. Generally, replacing estates with stuff that does things will improve your deck, but there are cases where you are sad to see these. Hunting Party stacks are weaker. Baron is crying in a corner somewhere. Since they all cost $1, remake opens become a lot weaker since you cant turn these into silvers. Some of the trash for benefit cards won't like it. Remodel opens become even weaker for instance. But most of the time, you will benefit. Hovel will be best in games with VP dual types. If you're going to buy a nobles/harem anyway getting rid of a card for free is nice. Likely you won't buy pure VP's just to get rid of this card since it doesn't improve your deck any, just gives a few more cards. Overgrown Estate is probably worse than you'd think. With some trashing you might get a benefit from that +1 card. Otherwise it won't impact that game very much. Necropolis is the real winner though. Starting off with an action splitter is huge. I can't tell you how many games I've played where I would have killed for just 1 village. Well now here's that one village. With other good villages and trashing, you might get rid of this anyway, but it should favor engine play a bit more strongly for dark ages sets.

Altar:So gain a card up to $5 is really strong. More of a remodel variant than a workshop since you have to trash a card to get it. But $6 costs a lot for no this turn benefit. Seems middling in power for the $6+ cards.

Armory: So a workshop where you topdeck the gained card. Probably makes it decent, but still no great shakes.

Band of Misfits: Such a fun card. Extremely board dependent. Could be extremely strong in some engines. On average, probably middling in strength. Makes 5/2 splits on ambassador or hag boards not so bad.

Bandit Camp: A $5 village. Getting a spoils each play seems like a very strong thing. A couple of these in an engine with decent cycling will keep your economy up. The limited supply of spoils makes an interesting balance. Maybe you could stock up on them to deny your opponents? I'm going to say this will be a premier village.

Beggar: Should be strong with the right sort of deck (alt VP for sure), but weak on average. Gaining 3 coppers to hand is not something you want often. And it's a bit dangerous to but a card just for the reaction to attack since that can be unreliable. Situational for sure.

Catacombs: Super smithy. Probably a great BM enabler. Going to be pretty good in engines too. Also good counter to deck mucking attacks. Not a power card but not weak either.

Count: I like it. Hard to evaluate its power with so many options. Likely it can slot into a lot of decks, but will be at its best when you can turn the 'drawback' choice into a benefit, like a duke deck for example. I think the versatility should make it a very strong $5 card though. Certainly a card that requires skill to play well.

Counterfeit: Looks strong at first, but probably not actually that great. Trashes copper like a better/more expensive moneylender. Decent enough. Gives you a good late game push by trashing expensive treasure. Has a fun HoP and spoils interaction. Mostly though, probably on the weaker side of average for $5, but will certainly have a lot of games where it plays an important part.

Death Cart: A cleverly designed card, i think. Probably a good open to ramp up to more expensive cards you really want like Gold/Plat/KC/Goons etc. Going to be hard to sustain it in a good draw engine. Situational. usually going to be weak, but very strong when it is good.

Forager: Nonterminal version of trade route. Going to be harder to get up in $ than TR, but, hey, nonterminal. Middle of the road powerwise.

Fortress: usually going to just be a village for $4. But will have a few really neat tricks in the right deck. It's a village, so it will be bought a lot, so thats something.

Hunting Grounds: +4 cards without a drawback. Well, unless you count $6 cost a drawback. Too expensive to really work in big money unless you get a lucky early draw. Definitely an engine card, probably not that great a card overall, but it's not super bad either. The on trash bonus seems like it will only matter very rarely.

Ironmonger: Either a village, peddler, or a lab for $4. Oh and you get to spy yourself with it. If it wasn't for the uncertainty, this is an elite card. With the uncertainty, still a very good card. Will slot in very nicely into any engine.

Junk Dealer: Mandatory trasher peddler. Will be pretty good in engines. Not very good in BM. Might end up as 15-20 for the $5 cards.

Marauder: seems like a strong open. No this turn benefit is probably why it works at $4. But spoils for me, ruins for you seems like a big swing for future deck development. This probably ends up as a top 10 $4 card. Maybe even to 5.

Market square: Cantrip buy with a potentially strong reaction. Engines are going to love this card. You want buys and you're probably trashing cards. So you can get free gold to boost your economy while buying more critical engine parts. Going to be high up on the $3 card list.

So many more. I'll get to them later.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 01:18:59 am by jonts26 »
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blueblimp

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2012, 11:13:29 am »
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Posting before reading other discussion...

Graverobber

Use: The trash-for-benefit half of Graverobber is a limited Expand. The main use it will see is converting $5 actions to Provinces, along with certain special cases where it's good to Remodel/Expand cheap actions (e.g. Grand Market). For the usual case where all actions are in the $2-$5 range, it compares very unfavourably to University for gaining actions. Its role is primarily to gain VP in the endgame.

The gaining half of Graverobber depends on what's in the trash. Usually, what's there comes from Graverobber. If it's used mainly in the endgame as I predict, that means there won't be much there of interest until very late. But at that point, Graverobber can grab a fresh $5 action (such as Graverobber!) from the trash, top-deck it, and next turn you can Graverobber it to a Province.

Combos: There are some crazy combos with other trash-for-benefit cards: Bishop/Apprentice a Gold, then gain it back and top-deck it.

Strength: As a way to gain Provinces, it seems potentially quite good due to the self-combo ability, especially in an engine where you can make sure to draw two of them together. As a way to gain anything else other than VP, it's really bad in most kingdoms, with the major exception being when certain other trash-for-benefit cards are present.

Fun: Opponent interaction is fun.

Quibbles: If you choose the second option and have no action card in hand, presumably you do nothing, but the wording doesn't give any way to verify this.

For the first option, why does the card you gain need to cost at least $3? Sometimes you will want to take $2 actions from the trash.

Poor House

Use: In a treasure-less engine, this is a terminal $4. Truly treasure-less engines don't come up that much, though. Possibly the easiest way to trigger the $4 is in a discard-and-draw-up-to engine. In a draw-your-deck engine, if you have even two treasures, then this is a terminal Silver, which is bad.

Being terminal limits this a lot, because you don't want to mass them, so it makes the $1 cost less useful than it seems. Two triggering $4 can buy a Province, so in a lean-but-weak engine, being terminal might be OK.

Being $1, this interferes with cards like Remake and Upgrade that want to trash Coppers to nothing. Since you don't want to mass them, it severely hurts these cards, maybe to the point that they are not worth buying when Poor House is in the kingdom.

Strength: Situationally good in a discard-and-draw-up-to engine, and otherwise very weak. In a draw engine, treasure will usually be a better way to get money. Also makes Remake and Upgrade horrible.

Sage

Use: Compare to Farming Village. Sage loses a +1 action, which is a huge blow, as well as the ability to skip expensive VP. So the only advantage it has is skipping Coppers... but this can be huge. If you open Sage, then the first play resembles a Chancellor effect, or even better if you draw it T4 and bought something good on T3. It's obviously also very nice to enable an engine when Copper trashing isn't available. And as a pseudo-cantrip, it rarely hurts.

Its weakness starts to show when it begins hitting Duchies/Provinces, but even at that point, it should still normally be helping you.

Strength: It has its place even in certain BM+X (with non-draw mainly to avoid collisions), and engines will want as much of these as they can afford. So, pretty good, and comparable to Scheme, although with both present I'd probably want Scheme instead.

Feodum

Use: BM+X will usually have at least 3 Silvers by game end, so this is better than an Estate in such games, but usually worse than a Duchy. Trader/Feodum should be amazing, but apart from that I can't think of which cards can generate the mass Silvers necessary for a Feodum-centric strategy.

The on-trash ability is good with most trash-for-benefit, assuming you want the Silvers, and assuming they collide. Opening Feodum/Chapel seems maybe nice, as it can kick-start your economy pretty well when they collide. (If they don't collide for ages, then you are sad.) The problem is, though, that the Silver flood makes it harder to line up your trashers with Feodums, so in many games it's not worth betting your strategy on.

Strength: Like Gardens, it's worth buying late-game in most games, but only sometimes will the game center around it. I don't see Feodum rushes being as common as Gardens/Silk Road rushes, except for Trader. The on-trash ability isn't relevant too often.

Fun: Some games will end up with both players trying to empty the Silver pile. Sounds fun to me!

Cultist

Use: The closest comparison is Witch. Cultist is a Witch that can chain like a Lab, but the Ruins it deals are (perhaps) more harmful to money strategies than they are to engines. The on-trash ability is situational, but it would be nice with Graverobber.

Strength: Not as much of a must-buy as Witch, but still very good in 2p. Tends to favour engines, because you can only chain these reliably in an engine, and because engines are better able to deal with incoming Ruins.

Ruined Market

A terminal +1 Buy can be a good card for an engine. BM+X, on the other hand, will hate this. So I like the idea of a curse-like card that favours engines. I dislike the Ascension-esque random distribution of the ruins, especially since the availability of +buy can make-or-break a strategy.

I'm guessing the rest of the ruins will be: +2 actions; +2 cards; +$1; trash a card from hand. +1 action would never be worth playing, and +2 actions is worse than any normal card. +2 cards is worse than a moat, and more interesting than +1 card. +$2 would be a little too good, but a terminal Copper feels about right. Trashing a card fits in with the trashing theme of the expansion, although the swinginess of only one player getting a trasher could be bad.

For names: ruined Village, ruined Smithy, ruined Festival, ruined Chapel.

Squire

The lack of +1 card hurts this a lot as a village, but it's still an OK one because of the +$1 and the option of +buys. In a trimmed deck, it's a fantastic village, better than Hamlet. I don't know what to make of the "gain a Silver" option.

The on-trash effect is the sort of thing I never expected to see in Dominion, yet it's reasonable, so that's very interesting. Goons and Familiar are the stars here, being the most expensive attacks. Scrying Pool is also a combo, since massing Squires and trashing them gets you Scrying Pools faster than any other way, and avoids the deck-clogging Potion. With an expensive coin-giving attack on the board (Goons/Mountebank/Minion), opening Squire/Chapel or Squire/Steward is often a no-brainer.

This card is not always good, but on many boards, it's a power card, and in a fun way to boot. Too bad Graverobber cannot retrieve it from the trash, as you want a lot of these.

Hermit

Boo to Ascension-style trash-from-discard-or-hand, although it's not as annoying since it'll mostly be used on Estates, Curses, and Ruins. This style of trashing makes it the only trasher worth getting exclusively to trash curses, so this is great in a Witch game, etc.

As an opener, it might be okay, as it combines trashing with (if you choose) Silver-gaining.

The upgrading ability gives some endgame explosiveness, although since the Madman goes into your discard pile, it will be hard to time.

Madman

There may be some opportunity for a Graverobber/Hermit combo engine that plays Madmen every turn.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 11:11:38 am by blueblimp »
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2012, 11:19:48 am »
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Grave Robbers - will be good, but it's no power five. People will try to build decks with just Grave Robbers in the way they used to build decks with just remodels, and those decks will be too slow. The most useful thing about this card will be having a nerfed expand that costs 5.

Poor House - with support (= plus action and plus buy), will be dominantly strong in the manner of Fool's Gold. Beautiful in fishing village + watchtower style decks. Everyone is focused on how a one cost makes remake way worse - true, but it makes develop way better.

Sage - fantastic card in many strategies. Seems much better than scheme, which is already nothing to sneeze at. Makes counting house better, although still probably not good enough to win games.
(modified the next day - I didn't notice this guy doesn't just find action cards, so he becomes way worse than scheme once you start greening.)

Feodum - awesome. The buff that rewards silver flooding that we've all been waiting for. Rushing will be dominant with ironworks or workshop, and the strategy will be viable in lots of other games too. I imagine a lot of AP from the "trashing this gives you lots of silvers" clause - I buy a bunch of feoda to apprentice to counter my opponent who's rushing them - wait, now i've got a ton of silver, hey, I want my feodum back. HEY, THERE'S CARDS THAT DO THAT NOW!!!!

Cultist - see ruined market for my interpretation of the attack. I imagine cultist is going to be a little annoying, like minion. On many boards, it will be the dominant strategy just to buy lots of cultists, because they synergize best with themselves. So everyone will do that, and the one who does it better or lucker, or maybe just first player, will win. I need to understand the rules for when you get a "free play" of cultist better.

Ruined Market - let me be on the record saying ruins are likely to be a lot less damaging to the deck than curses. Reasoning: 1. There are definitely games where I'd be tempted to take this (imagine chapel + engine + no plus buy. you can pick this card up on a turn when you chapel your hand!) 2. Cultist's non-attack ability is so much stronger than witch that I imagine playtesting must have shown the ruins not to be as bad as the curses.

Squire - will buy on some boards just for the +actions. Like hamlet, these guys will be easy to load up on. Obviously stronger if there are attacks + trashing and insane if Familiar or Goons is on the board. Chapel/Squire will be a punishing opening if there's a good attack on the board.

Hermit/Madman - Actual ability is a slightly weaker Jack of all Trades - would be a good open on some boards even without the Madman. Trashing is slightly nerfed in early game (turn 3: Hermit Copper Copper Copper Copper ragequit) but significantly buffed in late game if there's cursing.

Madman will be awesome, but it probably won't be worth trying to activate more than one in a game. Without building around it, it will be annoyingly swingy if you can "draw it on time" with the right cards.

Rats - I'm going to buy this card a lot trying to make it work and end up with a deck full of rats. Best with TFB and strong trashing. It's hard to believe rats is good enough to cost 4 since it seems like it will be horrible in any game without another trasher - I suspect I'll be proven wrong.

Pillage - attack is strong and a little swingy, much like possession. Seems really devastating on a 5/2 open - my opponent loses an opening card, I get two one-shot golds. Horse traders is a phenomenal counter. I hope this card turns out to be bad, because then we will be able to call people who overbuy it "pillage idiots."

Spoils - it's a rare deck that wants a one-shot gold more than a gold, but when you want that deck these will be ridiculous. Very powerful even when you'd prefer gold, though.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 12:24:08 pm by ehunt »
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michaeljb

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2012, 11:33:56 am »
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Just saw this thread, about to hop over to the Dark Ages preview thread.

edit: (have only read ftl's OP in this thread, won't be reading anything more than the card text in the other one)

edit: and here we go!

Graverobber - seems like it will be best in the endgame (as good as Expand if you have a bunch of $5 Actions), or in games that somehow have a lot of Mine use, particularly Platinum games (more likely to have Silvers and Golds in the trash this way, yet as I type that it seems like less of a great use than when I started). Pretty certain it's going to best in the end, probably pretty good in Apprentice games, and I'm positive we'll see some more Dark Ages cards that make it better--ie, it will probably be best in Dark Ages heavy games (shocking, right?).
edit: and wow I horribly misread that! 3 to 6, not 3 or 6! D'oh! Yeah that makes it much much better. Should be fun to pick off unfortunate Lookout victims, and again seems good in Apprentice games. Disregard the stuff about Mine--that card is underwhelming enough it's not going to do much to make Graverobber particularly better :P

Poor House - a $1 card! They said it couldn't be done! Just like $7 cards before Prosperity...I for one felt it was unlikely we'd ever see one, but I like that there is (at least) one now. Now to actually read the card text! ... well double Tactician certainly loves the hell out of this one! I'm excited for this card--engine goodness! If I'm understanding the text correctly, it can take your total available treasure down to 0, not just the worth of the card; it gives you $4, then takes away for each Treasure card in hand, of which you could easily have more than 4. I'm excited for this card, I love building Treasure-less engines, and this fits right in.

Sage - A cantrip to skip Estates, Coppers, and Curses--how nice. Doesn't seem terribly powerful, probably strongest in heavy Cursing games, especially Sea Hag. Don't think it's as interesting as the first 2, but sounds like it could be somewhat useful. As a $3 cantrip, I immediately think of Scheme, which seems significantly more powerful than Sage. I am looking forward to trying this, and the other two as well!

edit: and now I should get to work instead of doing all the reading I want to...since I'm at work and everything  ::)

Preview 2
OK, so I read almost the whole first page in the preview thread before I remembered this thread, but oh well. I think I can still give my first impressions.

Feodum - hurray! I always knew a Treasure based Victory card would come! Just like Donald says in the description :P The first thing I thought of was definitely trashing one of these with Trader, that's quite the Silver flood. I really like that it rounds out the type-based Victory cards with Silk Road and Vineyard (though you could technically argue that it doesn't since it's only Silver but whatever). No idea how it compares to Gardens/Silk Road, but I know I want to find out.

Cultist - it's like Conspirators on crack. I love the way they can just chain with themselves. And, like I want to trash Feodum with Trader, I want to trash this one with Apprentice. Interesting that apparently Ruins-givers needed to have a new type.

Ruined Market - oooh Ruins, cool! Only slightly less worse than Curses.

So excited for the rest of the set!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 10:33:27 am by michaeljb »
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2012, 11:40:22 am »
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Edited. Gonna read other people now.
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2012, 11:43:41 am »
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A few simple fun combo predictions:
1. Sage/Countinghouse. Remember how awesome the idea of chancellor/Chs was? Or how golem/Chs sounds until you realize that it is insanely slow? Then you figured that you needed a village in there and some +buy? Well Sage/Chs gets rid of the village and may actually be a viable a Chs combo. Yeah you will find provs sometimes instead of the Chs, but with a few sages you may be able to get down into competitive territory with Chs. I'm not sure this will work, but it should be closer to working than most Chs combos. I believe hamlet/Chs/Sage should be good though.
2. Sage/vineyard/2 coin action. You want a good number of actions - check. You want to always hit your potion. Check. Something like vineyard/sage/hamlet or vineyard/sage/herbalist should let you pile the vineyards quick and let you stock up on cheap actions.
3. Oasis/poor house. You need to discard cash, you need +action to still play a Phs - oasis seems like it would be good on all counts. It can get you up into range of 5 easily (where you can find some power cards with cash).
4. Sage/apothecary. Find your potion most every turn until you buy a power action/province, quickly run through a deck with apothecaries every turn.
5. Grave robber/sab. Not sure if this is strong enough, but being able to poach full provinces and colonies is better than buying them yourself - even if they replace their losses with duchies and provinces respectively. Something like KC/KC/Sab/Sab/Gvrb should be able to provide an instant 20 point swing. I could see Sab/Gvrb being a decent way to try to pull off an upset if your engine is just a bit too slow.
6. Grvb/Swindler. In an engine, this would be just brutal. Particularly once you start getting "free" provinces. At the end you could easily see 20 point swings.
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2012, 11:50:39 am »
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5. Grave robber/sab. Not sure if this is strong enough, but being able to poach full provinces and colonies is better than buying them yourself - even if they replace their losses with duchies and provinces respectively. Something like KC/KC/Sab/Sab/Gvrb should be able to provide an instant 20 point swing. I could see Sab/Gvrb being a decent way to try to pull off an upset if your engine is just a bit too slow.
6. Grvb/Swindler. In an engine, this would be just brutal. Particularly once you start getting "free" provinces. At the end you could easily see 20 point swings.

These would cry out for Highway.
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2012, 11:54:17 am »
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Day 1:

Overall impression is nice work as always by DXV. Start by showing the cards that do things people were hoping for, and even if they're not good, it's exciting (like Nomad Camp for Hinterlands).

Graverobber:
Immediate impression is that it's something you only want late game for 5->Province or picking up a big card someone trashed for their own Province (which is why it definitely needs the top-decking). But then again, with some trashing (or Sage/HP) to get a high enough collision probability, you might just be able to rush Provinces with it. When you have a collision, you get a Province, and otherwise you pick up another card to try to cause a collision.

Poor House:
Not terrible, but not great. What do you expect for $1? Might be good for Silk Road games, since it guarantees you hit $4 every turn you draw it, and can basically be bought any turn you don't. So you can just keep buying cheap VP cards. And of course it should be good in engines with spare actions and buys and no Coppers. When you talk about really cheap economy, this is it.

Sage:
Decent $3 card. Does something like Warehouse. It's going to be decent engine support when you don't have enough trashing to remove all your Coppers. It combos with stuff that lets you mess with your deck top and, of course, Counting House!

Day 2:

Feodum:
So alt VPs are usually pretty good, but one that needs 3 Silvers per point is going to be a little tougher to use. Without other Silver gainers, you're probably need to trash 2 to make them worth enough, but then that's 2 of them left. Still I think it will be strong if there is basically any other way to gain Silver, making a deck like Trader/Gardens that gets a few Provinces and a bunch of $4 VP cards.

Cultist:
So many interesting things going on with this one... The Ruins mechanic is neat, giving Curses that aren't soo bad. It's probably less strong than Witch because you can potentially get something out of the Ruins, and they don't affect the score, but it's probably something you want most of the time. And you're more happy to overdo it since they can chain and give a decent benefit for trashing in addition to what your TfB does. Apprentice a Cultist, draw 8 cards...

Ruined Market:
The problem with making not all the ruins the same is that people are going to have one more thing to complain about when playing online. "You got all the +cards, and I got the useless +actions. You lucky !@#$." Plus there is a chance you actually buy these. Say there's no other +buy. You might want to buy this, because you don't know when the next one with +buy will show up. It also offers another pile to drain if you have a ton of buys. And this one doesn't give you -10 points to do it.

Day 3:

Squire:
The attack-gaining is the sexiest-sounding part of the card, but I'm not sure how often that will be useful. You can't get it early reliably, and it's not like attacks are all that expensive that you can't just buy them. There will probably be some cute tricks, but not super-game-changing I think. The main thing this card is, imo, is a $2 village that can double as +buy (like hamlet), and gives money for those draw-up-to-X things. Since you can get into engines that draw most of your deck with this, then you can pull stuff like remodeling it into a better village and a Rabble or something, so the trash effect will have some use. The gain a Silver option might be okay in early greening decks (particularly Feodum). It's basically like Explorer minus $1.

Hermit/Madman:
Wow, this looks good. It trashes Estates (not on turn 3 though EDIT: I didn't realize it is discard OR hand. So usually you're okay on turn 3 too), gains Silvers or villages (the cheaper, at least) or other Hermits, and can turn into an explosion. The fact that Madman is one-shot I guess keeps it under control. But you can probably get some crazy mega-turns, multiple ones if you have a way of gaining expensive cards without buying them...

Day 4:
And it just keeps getting crazier...

Rats:
At first, Rats sounds really good, but then it doesn't actually decrease your deck size, and it does decrease your hand size. I guess if you're going Scrying Pool or something that would rather have Rats you can't play instead of Estates and Coppers it could be okay, but otherwise you're going to need another trasher to trash the Rats. Probably mainly good for generating fuel for TfB cards, as it can quickly turn your deck into mostly 4-cost cards that let you draw a card when trashed.

Pillage:
A one-shot attack with no this-turn self-benefit. Discarding their best card I guess mostly offsets the fact that your best card (or at least a terminal costing $5 does nothing for you this turn, but then you have to buy/gain another Pillage to use it again. Eventually you see the Spoils, which are good, but probably Pillage ends up being pretty situational. If you're drawing your whole deck and can draw the spoils right away and use the spare money to replace the Pillage, then it'll work, but otherwise I'm not so sure.

Spoils:
It will be interesting to see what the other spoils-gaining cards are, but I guess the effect is like the cards are giving money, but at a potentially significant delay. Should be better with engines or otherwise good cycling.

Day 5:
First overall thing: Shelters are $1. Wow. We knew there'd be some $1 cards, but figured they wouldn't show up in that many games, so that it wouldn't matter. But here they are, in over 1/6th of the games. But the good thing is they're not in the supply, so they can be in all these games and still not screw up the ability to upgrade Coppers into nothing. But then again, Upgrade all of a sudden looks a lot worse, since Shelters don't turn into $3 cards like Estates do...

Necropolis:
Sweet, there's already a village in your deck from the get-go. How does this affect openings? Well now even if your opening buys collide, you might be able to play them both... Back of the envelope computation says probability of bad collision is 4/11*(1-3/10) ~ 25%, down from 36%. So now you're a little less afraid to do that I guess, presuming you either don't want too many more expensive terminals or can handle having more terminals in your deck anyway. It's also a pretty nice head-start for engines, since that's one less village you need to buy.

Overgrown Estates:
Worth 0VP? So why is it a victory card? I mean, I guess it counts for Silk Road, Bureaucrat, Crossroads, etc., but these are all going to be a bit worse since you only start with 1 VP card. So I'm not sure the point of making it a VP card. Maybe just for the color combo? BTW it's a bit weird that the colors go the other way in Necropolis, but I guess they tried all the combinations, and this looks better? +1 card when you trash it helps speed you up a bit with trashers (maybe you can buy something on your Steward turn now) but I'm not sure how important this is for overall strategy...

Hovel:
This is nice. It trashes itself so your first green card doesn't waste any space. Seems like it makes buying green early (a la big money) nicer, but then again, you start with zero points, so you need to buy more VPs to be ahead that you used to...

I think the main effect of these cards probably is that engines are going to be better: free village, no base VPs, a minor benefit to buying power when doing your early housecleaning...


Well this was fun playing. Now I have to read everyone else's and then wait for the actual cards to see how we did!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 12:10:42 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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wrathofmine

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2012, 11:59:31 am »
+1

Everyone is focused on how a one cost makes remake way worse - true, but it makes develop way better.

Yes, trash one to top deck a Copper and an Estate ! The best develop can do ;)
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ednever

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2012, 12:05:53 pm »
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My thoughts (if anyone is reading this far. I guess for nothing else than to have a record of my thinking on Day 1):

Graverobber:
Very situational card. Expand isn't a great card generally, except for two things: (1) Turning Estates into good $5s, (2) Accelerating the end game by getting a province every turn (even if you have to trash a province to do it)

Graverobber, in exchange for being able to pull from the trash, isn't able to do either of those things.

Where GR will shine is in PREVENTING other trashing strategies. It's a great counter. Sometimes. Going for a Duke startegy? If your opponent buying Duchies and trashing them? GR is a way to get them back.

I'll bet GR ends up in the "Not a very good card. Too bad there weren't some tweeks". First I can think of: It would be an awesome counter if it could pull anything from the trash - prevents people from trashing provinces to get more provinces. Ah well. It wouldn't work at $4, and as DX says, "They all can't be great."


Poorhouse:
Again: Situational. Great combo with Hamlet (in fact a lot of the time that Menagerie is good, this will be good). Combos with cards that like Actions (i.e., Scrying Pool) and cards that let you discard or get things out of your hand (Vault, Black Market).
Also useful sometimes if you want to end on piles.

Fishing Village - Horse Traders - Poor House?


Sage:
I haven't read all the posts, but I think people are vastly under-estimating this card. This is going to be one of the best $3 cards out there.
Assuming you don't have dead draw (like Smithy, Margrave, etc), then, until you start greening, the card is never worse than another $3 card. Guaranteed. It is often better - replacing itself with a $5 or $6 card.
As an open it is fantastic. Instead of opening Swindler-Swindler you open Swindler-Sage. And you get to play your Swindler on two separate turns. If they collide you can at least re-shuffle your deck and likely draw one of them in your next hand (which still gives you another Swindler)
If this was on Isotropic, I'll bet one of the top openings in the game would be Sage-Ambassador (followed by Sage-Hag, Sage-Tournament, etc.). Even Sage-Black Market could be great in many cases.
It's also a spammable action. Combine with King's Court, or with Scrying Pool or with Apothecary.
It's a Hunting Party with one less card draw (ok. Obviously not exactly the same, but close enough in a HP+X deck). I'll bet you could build a Sage+X deck pretty easily. And may work better if the card you want to spam is a $5 card and you can find extra buys somewhere (so you can pick up multiple Sages and spam that $5 card again and again)

I'd have to think about it, but I'll bet this is better than Scheme until the end game.

Granted, in a pure BM deck that goes green fast, it's not going to work as it will end up drawing your Provinces when you would rather have a silver in hand. But this card is an engine builder's dream.


(I can't wait for 6 months from now when Sage has been proven to be garbage and Grave Robbers are a must buy...)

Ed
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2012, 12:38:14 pm »
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I just can't stop staring at the new cards...  tomorrow morning needs to get here so I'll have SIX cards to stare at.  :)
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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2012, 01:40:20 pm »
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Graverobber - Okay. So it's a trash-digger, or an Action-only Expand. The Expand part looks quite good because trashing a $3/$4 cost for a $6/$7 cost is always nice. But that's the ideal scenario. Odds are, you primarily trash $2 to $4 costs for a $5 cost, and that's basically a Remodel. The trash-digging seems useful as a way to make the card not useless if you don't have an action to trash, and also as a way to funnel actions back into Graverobber. Except your opponents can take the trashed cards as well, and you might not even want the trashed actions if they would clog your deck up with too many terminals. If there's a good $6/$7 cost action, worth going for. Otherwise, it really isn't.

(EDIT: I didn't realize you could gain any card, not just an Action. Well, that makes the Expanding part better. Still, the only parts that make it better than Remodel for me is $3 cost -> Gold, $5 cost -> Province, and the Action -> Action mentioned above. I still think it won't be that good, it's more of an end-game accelerant than anything. You have to want to load up on Actions to make it useful.)

Poor House - Fun with Vault and trashing if you have +Actions. Easy to pick up with +Buy, really easy in fact. I think it'll be the Crossroads of the set: in the right kingdom, very good. Otherwise, very lackluster.

Sage - Doesn't like Big Money that much. Well, let me revise that. You can play it in Big Money, but odds are you'll find a Silver. So it acts like a Silver that cycles your deck. That might be enough to make it worth picking up actually. In engines, it's much nicer because you can skip through those Coppers and Estates to find an Action. It's difficult to use this as a tutor, since you need no cards above $3 besides the ones you want. It's sort of like Scheme, now that I think about it. Doesn't take space in your deck, but it helps with consistency. Weaker than Scheme, but not by much. And fun with a Sage - $4 terminal silver opening. Sage - Militia could be quite ugly if you get the Turn 3 Militia, Turn 4 Sage finding Militia.

Feodum - Hm. Pure Big Money gets 6-9 Silver, and BM + X gets less than that, unless you use a Silver gainer like JoaT. So, you really need ways to get Silver, but there's only so much Feodum trashing you want. Unless you have Graverobbers. It feels like a slog card where you want to stall out the game, since there's little chance of being able to rush all the Silvers you want and having the +Buy to end the game. But I'm not convinced you'll be able to get enough Silvers to make this worth it, even in the long run. Maybe with Trader, or a Dark Ages enabler. But otherwise, this will probably be used for the trashing ability more than anything else.

Cultist - Tricky. By itself, it's a weaker witch. If you choose to flood the deck with Cultists, they act as Labs, but take up your action, so it's harder to add other actions. That's some neat flavor right there. Based on the Ruins so far, Cultists are going to be good. I mean, sure they aren't -1 VP, and they can be played for minor benefit, but Cultists hand them out much better than Witches. I'm not sold on the pure Cultist deck, because like a Lab chain you preferably want +Buy. So you'll draw all these cards, including your +Buy, and then have no actions. Still, a strong card.

Ruins - They're neat, what can I say. Obviously not nearly as bad as Curses, and in some rare cases you might want to buy them if there's no +Buy in play. Bad for terminal collisions. Bad for engines too, unless you have way too many actions, which . Easier to counter than Curses, but you'll still try to hand them out most of the time.

Squire - Wow, I thought +2 Action +$1 and some other bonuses was a middle $3 card, since Fishing Village is so good. But turns out it's a $2? Well, whatever. The Attack portion depends on the kingdom obviously. Needs TFB to work well, because otherwise I don't think it's worth it to buy Squire, wait for it to collide with a trasher, and then lose your Squire for an attack that costs $5 or something. Buying silvers seems so much faster. Still, the utility of Squire is quite nice. Not the best $2, but has the utility you need. About equal to Pawn in power level.

Hermit/Madman - Trashes Estates really well. And actually, all the other "trash this card for bonus" cards from Dark Ages that we've seen. Although Madman looks awesome, not buying anything for a turn is a big tempo loss, and I'm not sold on that. Especially because Madman is one-shot. You want to skip an early turn when you have no money, but the early turns are really important for setting up your deck. The gaining might offset that, but then you're still not getting anything super great by gaining a $3 or less. I suspect it'll be used more for enabling the "When you trash" cards rather than for Madmen, unless you have enough +Action and gainers to make losing a buy worth it.

Rats - I don't know what to think of it. I mean, non-terminal trashing is nice and all, but the Rat gaining seems like it would get out of hand unless you have other trashers. Depends on what other neat stuff is in Dark Ages, the on trash benefit is nice.

Pillage/Spoils - Targetted discard hurts a lot, but the one-shot nature makes it okay. I think it'll be useful as an early $5, since the Spoils will give you a nice chance of getting a Gold. Compare to Trading Post. Not as good as TP early on, but drops off less over the course of the game.

Shelters - There isn't much point in judging them based on power level, since everyone starts out with them anyways. So the question is, how much will they change the game? Necropolis will probably change it the most, it makes double terminal openings more feasible. That's a good thing, especially for Dark Ages with the whole upgrading theme. You need lots of actions for that. Overgrown Estate is alright, but won't be a key piece. Hovel is interesting as a way to add a VP tiebreaker without gunking up the deck. Not sure how I feel about these tbh.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 12:04:33 am by Titandrake »
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carstimon

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Re: For when the Dark Ages previews come out - card analysis game
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2012, 02:12:20 pm »
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It would be nice if we had discussion all in the other thread, and this thread one post per person.

Graverobber: I think this will be great in complicated engine decks with lots of components on the table.  The kind of situation where you start off with a couple of courtyards, but by then end you'd really rather have them be laboratories.  The huge huge thing I see is with apprentice.  Apprenticing cards costing 5 or 6 is often a way to kickstart a draw-your-deck engine or make it survive a militia, if you can draw your deck and have a grave robber you get the card you trashed right back.  Another thing: it makes playing your hand really complicated, because you have to decide whether to trash a card or play it.  Expand has the same thing, and remodel and upgrade and forge etc, but I think this has it more:
1. For actions, it's as powerful as expand but only costs $5 so you'll have it more often
2. You have to worry that you won't be able to play it at all if you play your actions

Poor House:  The only thought I have now besides the remake stuff is: if you play this, you're guaranteed to have $4 (excepting weird treasures).  $(4-num treasures) from poor house, and at least $(num treasures) from your treasures.  I don't think that's significant for things like gardens or silk road: $4 is easier to get and HT is SO MUCH better for guaranteeing $4 or $5.  And HT gives you +buy for a copper.

Sage:  This does reeeaaly interesting things to accelerating turns 3/4.  Comparable to getting chapel/copper/estate*3 is opening sage/x, getting sage turn 3 and x is at the bottom of your deck.  Then you 1) Get to play x turn 3, 2) Get sage, x, and your turn 3 buy in your deck for turn 4.  A lot of situations are similarly good.  So in this respect it's a really good chancellor.  I think this will be a strong opening buy almost every board.  (Of course, not if you want to open chapel)

Feodum:  I think this totally won't be rushable as much as gardens/silk road, for example with ironworks.  You need to get silvers.  And then there's lots of competition at $4 between feodum, silver gainers (bureaucrat/trader/jack), and ironworks.  I think this is better in a longer game.

Cultist:  I want to compare it to witch and say witch is usually better.  These ruins are just not that bad.  The -1 vp actually matters.  The chaining of cultist is going to be hard to pull off, and seems  like a bonus once in a while.  The thing that's really nice is the trash bonus.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:48:01 am by carstimon »
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