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Author Topic: Request: Golem  (Read 26598 times)

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rinkworks

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Request: Golem
« on: July 27, 2011, 09:22:32 am »
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I haven't played with Alchemy much.  Golem seems like a lot of fun, and I can see how it's useful, even if I can't quite completely articulate why it's more than a Village with a guarantee of having the actions to use with it.  But I've heard reference to a "Golem deck" on this board, and I can't conceive of how you'd build a deck around the card.  Can anyone elaborate on how to best use this card?
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Davio

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2011, 09:29:11 am »
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Golem is helpful when you have:

- A lot of junk you want to skip over
- Critical action cards you want to play as much as you can

But I'm no Golem expert either, so this is as far as my knowledge goes. :)

Be careful when there are non-optional trashers in your deck, because you have to play both action cards.
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DG

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2011, 11:35:54 am »
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Quote
Golem seems like a lot of fun, and I can see how it's useful, even if I can't quite completely articulate why it's more than a Village with a guarantee of having the actions to use with it.
It's probably better to compare a golem to a throne. Instead of playing one card twice you're playing two separate cards once each. The major difference (and advantage) of the golem compared to the throne is that the target cards come from your deck rather than your hand. The golem also discards all the non-action cards revealed when looking for two action cards to play. This can again be an advantage when you deck has high quality actions and a lot of rubbish in between.

When it comes to building a golem deck you need to realise that the golem is an expensive card and the potion can be extra baggage in the deck. It can often be worth skipping the potion and buying victory points sooner with silver and gold. If you decide that you need a golem then you should really plan ahead from the start of the game and consider what actions you'd like the golem to draw. If you put pearl divers and pawns into your deck then the golem will often find them instead of the stronger actions cards you'd prefer to play.

You can either keep the golem deck focussed with just two or three key action cards and a lot of golems, or put in a lot of actions  for a big action chain deck. Engineering good card combinations can be quite technical so I'll won't say much more. One thing that does need to be considered is the discard pile created by the golem when it searches for actions to play. This discard pile will typically contain all your worst cards. If you draw past the end of your deck and turn this pile of rubbish into your new draw deck, then put all your good cards into a fresh discard pile in the clean up phase, you may set yourself up for a couple of bad turns.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 11:59:22 am by DG »
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 09:09:11 pm »
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The great thing about Golem is that in a properly constructed deck you can play terminal actions that are otherwise sub-optimal in devastating ways.  As DG stated above the important thing is to not dilute the deck with actions that do not help achieve the thrust of what you are doing.

For example, I almost always ignore Pirate Ships and Saboteurs; playing two or three of them most turns can absolutely destroy an opponents deck if you can manage to start chaining them early enough.  Imagine what playing multiple Mountebanks can do.

One of the disadvantages of playing this style of engine is that bad shuffle luck can forestall the implementation too long and your more focused VP buying opponent will have gained an insurmountable lead. 
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Fuu

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2011, 12:33:34 am »
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Golem is really quite powerful!

1) In the early game, Golem will be digging for what limited actions you have - so emphasise buying high impact actions. If you have two high quality actions in your deck/discard and you draw Golem, you are guaranteed to play them both.

1b) As a consequence of the above, buying early treasure can help, since it will get you to high quality actions faster, and won't distract your Golem with mediocre actions.

2) Golem works well with +treasure or +VP. Hitting Monument twice with a Golem for +$4, +2VP is just great. Because you can skip over victory cards, you may also consider using early, high treasure turns for Provinces.

3) Golem can work well with non-terminals. If you hit two, you'll end up with +2 actions, which helps you play any terminals you drew initially (or can draw from some other card drawers). But through chaining, you may end up with more actions than you can use.

4) Golem helps your momentum in situations when you have lots of useless non-actions (copper, curses or victory cards) to skip over.
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Superdad

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2011, 10:14:16 am »
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Golem is also one of those cards that, by the very nature of how it functions, can enable completely off-the-wall combo decks such as Golem, Chancellor, Counting house (everytime you draw golem, your entire deck gets dumped into your discard pile, and you draw all your coppers).

There's really weird combos like this that exist with Golem, and some of them are extremely subtle.

Anytime Golem is on the board you should look for two very strong terminals that are devastating together.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2011, 05:10:32 pm »
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Be careful with golem.  It's 4P cost means that its a truly situational card.  Its very hard to make a plan to purchase an early golem. 

Most of the time that golem is the only alchemy card on the board, I will tend to ignore it, because by the time that I'm pretty confident that I could buy it, I don't want to down buy to a potion, and then wait a deck shuffle to (hopefully) buy my golem, and then a 3rd shuffle to use it.

Times where I think about golem more heavily
1. Ways to rapidly accelerate shuffling (i'm looking at you hunting party, tactician)
2. Other lower cost alchemy cards.  (Don't look now, but apothecary is sneaky good.  University is sneaky bad)
3. You know the game is going to be long (mountebank, witch, etc.)
4. Engine games with +buy where you can buy a potion + something else mid game, and then buy golems every turn for the remaining of the game.


Don't buy into the hype of double tacticians, or chancellor / counting house.

In the case of the former, even if you could pull it off, you're probably in a game where you could have had 15 cards in your hand anyway.

In the case of the latter, by the time you've bought
a. a potion
b. a golem
c. a counting house
d. a chancellor

yes, you could buy a province every turn... if you draw the golem, and neither of the other cards.  You'll end up cursing yourself for the rest of the game trying to get it all lined up perfectly, while the other guy happily plays big money on normal time scales.

Simulation challenge: mean time to 4 provinces with a Golem / Counting House / Chancellor strategy.

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Glooble

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2011, 05:53:41 pm »
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Actually, the chancellor is unnecessary. If the only action card in your deck is a counting house, the Golem will be a Chancellor - it puts your deck in your discard while searching for another action to play.
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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 09:38:33 pm »
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True, but if you have a chancellor you can guarantee more than $8 every time you play the Golem. Counting House alone only guarantees $7.
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jonts26

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 10:22:16 pm »
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It's probably better to try to pull off the counting house combo without the chancellor. The combo will fail if the counting house is in your hand (unless all copper are currently in hand/discard) if you draw it with golem. With the addition of the chancellor, the combo will fail if either terminal is in hand with the golem. While you do need to buy an 8th copper at some point, I think reducing the chance of failure is worth it.
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glasser

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2011, 10:39:36 pm »
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So, if I understand properly -- if you buy one counting house, one copper, as many golems as you'd like, arbitrary treasure (including the potion and probably some silver/gold to manage to get the golems and CH) then you are guaranteed at least $8 every turn you draw a golem and don't draw the CH?
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jonts26

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2011, 11:17:20 pm »
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Correct. What happens is the golem searches the deck for (non-golem) actions. If finds the counting house and then reveals the rest of your deck without finding one. All revealed cards get discarded. You then are forced to play counting house and you've just conveniently discarded all of your coppers which get picked up. As long as you have 8 coppers total you are guaranteed 8 coin to spend.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2011, 02:48:59 pm »
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Simulation challenge: mean time to 4 provinces with a Golem / Counting House / Chancellor strategy.

I haven't tried simulating this (and I am curious if the simulator can play the cards correctly), but I tried a few solitaire games a while back when this strategy was mentioned in another thread.  I got to 4 provinces in 14 and 15 turns in a couple of games, but I think I averaged around 17 or 18.  A couple of times, the shuffling just tore the strategy apart, and I never seemed to be able to make $4P.

Edit: I just ran 3 more tries and got 4 in 18, 17, and 16 turns.  I think one of the strongest aspects of this combo is that it pretty much keeps rolling once it gets started.  You could probably get the remaining 4 in another 5 or 6 turns most of the time.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 02:56:27 pm by Deadlock39 »
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jonts26

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2011, 04:19:27 pm »
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I tried out Geronimoo's very excellent simulator creating a counting house/golem buy order. I tried both silver/silver and potion/silver openings (and counting house/copper on a 5/2). This strategy failed miserably against big money ultimate (anywhere between 15-30% win rate depending on how i tweaked the parameters).

I also tried the simulation with chancellor instead of the first silver and got roughly the same results.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2011, 12:34:51 am »
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I just attempted to simulate this, and got it to a 33% win rate against Big Money Ultimate without doing anything too complicated.  There are some major problems with the way the simulator plays Golem though, so I think it is possible it could be a fair amount better. 

The errors mainly stem from the simulator pretty much playing Golem any time it can.  This causes two pretty major issues.  If the bot comes across a crappy hand at the beginning of the game (Golem, Estate, Estate, Copper, Copper in the case I noticed), it will play the Golem, even if it does not have a Counting house yet.  Now, this just causes a reshuffle, which puts those two Coppers and Estates back into your deck when you should be waiting on the Silver(s) and Potion that should be coming up to buy your Counting House or more Golems.  The other (very similar) problem I saw was the bot playing Golem when CH is in hand with it.  If you have multiple Golems (which you should) you want to draw the next hand without dumping the CH back into your reshuffle.  The example I pulled up in the simulator saw the bot playing Golem, dumping his deck, and then promptly drawing Golem and CH in the same hand again the very next turn. 

I think played optimally, this has a reasonable shot at being about even with BMU.  In general, it really isn't a good strategy, but I am sure it could be quite fun to pull off.

Geronimoo

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2011, 04:52:46 am »
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Actually, this combo is already available in the simulator (COL - COMBO - Counting House/Golem). I didn't provide the Province-game version, because it was way too slow which is partly because the simulator plays the Golem anytime it can (it has the highest play priority).

Here's a Province version (only 25% against BMU :( )
Code: [Select]
<player name="Counting House/Golem">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Counting_House"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Counting_House">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Golem"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Counting_House"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Golem"/>
   <buy name="Potion">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Potion"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Copper">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Silver"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Copper"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Counting_House"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>
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Deadlock39

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2011, 11:10:53 am »
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Here are the rules I put together that get 33-34% against BMU.  It is possibly a bit too much like BMU itself since it buys Silvers by default and relies on a bad hand to buy the Copper it needs.  When playing Solitaire, I found that getting more Silvers to enable Golem buys seemed to be the fastest strategy.   I also think buying more than one Potion can help, but everything I did in the simulator with more than one made things worse.

Code: [Select]
<player name="Golem-CH">
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Golem"/>
   <buy name="Counting_House">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Counting_House"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Potion">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Potion"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Copper">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Copper"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="8.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>

Lailoken

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2011, 02:36:04 pm »
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As has already been noted, Golem can get you some pretty amazing combos.  My brother got this:

--- Nasa's turn 28 ---
Nasa plays a Laboratory.
... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
Nasa plays a Golem.
... revealing 2 Provinces, 2 Golds, a Tactician, a Laboratory, a Duchy, and 2 Silvers.
... discarding the 2 Provinces, the Duchy, the 2 Golds, and the 2 Silvers.
... playing the Tactician first.
... ... discarding the hand (5 cards).
... playing the Laboratory second.
... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
Nasa plays a Tactician.
... discarding the hand (1 card).
(Nasa reshuffles.)
(Nasa draws: a Chapel, a Province, a Duchy, a Laboratory, and a Silver.)

Next turn, +10 cards, +2 buys off the two Tacticians.  But this is a fluke—he was extremely lucky to get it.  Tactician with Golem is often a bad idea, because you might end up discarding a great hand (such as a hand where you'd already drawn 5 cards off the Tactician you played last turn!).

The major lesson with Golem is that you have to be careful about what actions you buy when you're planning to buy Golem, as it can cause you huge problems if you get the wrong actions.  Trashing cards (not Chapel, since you can choose to trash none) are generally risky with Golem, especially towards the end of the game when you're more likely to have green cards.  I've been in situations where I had to Upgrade a gold into nothing because my only other option was to Upgrade a Province into nothing ... And it's even worse with Remake, 'cause then you risk losing two good cards.  Remodel is less risky, since you may be able to Remodel gold into a Province, or if worst comes to worst a Province into a Province.  (The last would only be bad depending on the circumstances, and if your only options for remodeling are Provinces, well, you've probably got the game anyway.)

And don't get sucked into attempting the awesome combinations, like a double Tactician turn, because you're probably going to have to play a LOT of games before you get it.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 02:38:21 pm by Lailoken »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2011, 02:47:49 pm »
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Did he win the game? I've pulled off the double tactician and seen it go off in a couple other games, and every time so far, the person who got it ended up losing.

DsnowMan

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2011, 06:46:05 pm »
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One thing about Golem decks I'm not sure has been mentioned:

They don't find treasure!

If you Golem and hit two not so great actions, skipping all your money along the way, you end up with... not much more than what you started with! You need a source of +$ or +cards to pair with the Golem, or else you are just wasting time.

I've seen it plenty and done it myself: Golem, find cool actions. Do cool actions. Wait, I only have $4 again?
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DG

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2011, 08:19:17 pm »
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If you make your golems play actions with +coins then your golems will help buy you provinces. It's not the fault of the golem if it only ever finds pearl divers in your deck!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2011, 08:44:45 pm »
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But Pearl Divers actually aren't THAT bad with a golem. Really almost anything gives you cards or money... mostly you need to watch out for the investment it takes to get the golems and things like trashers that you don't always want to play.

Lailoken

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2011, 10:01:47 pm »
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@WanderingWinder:  No, he didn't win.  I should've linked the game, sorry; it's here for anyone who wants to see:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110325-204750-2a5b1c3d.html#Nasa-show-turn-28

He spent the whole game trying to get it!
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Not a Cylon

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2011, 08:11:51 am »
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Fun Golem trick: Use it to play Tactician and keep going :-D I pulled this off once using Golem, Tactician, and Hunting Party - the Golem found a Tactician and a Hunting Party, so I played the Tactician first, then the HP found another HP, and I was off :-)

It would've been even cooler if I'd had another Tactician, of course :-)

Also, Golem and Possession are really sick together. You get to play your Possession a lot, and then when your opponent Possesses you, he can't use your Golems without risking getting Possessed himself …

(I once got four turns in a row this way: My opponent Possessed me and played my Golem which found a Possession, and so I got to Possess him next turn, and then on my turn I managed to Golem two Possessions … he must've been bored silly by the time he actually got to play again.)
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Request: Golem
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2011, 08:25:50 am »
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Fun Golem trick: Use it to play Tactician and keep going :-D I pulled this off once using Golem, Tactician, and Hunting Party - the Golem found a Tactician and a Hunting Party, so I played the Tactician first, then the HP found another HP, and I was off :-)

It would've been even cooler if I'd had another Tactician, of course :-)

You didn't read the thread before posting, did you?
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