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[carbonduck]

I've only been playing Dominion with my newbie friends, so I don't have any experience related to this question. What is a good "optimal" deck size?

This question is prompted by my games of Dominion last night, where my newbies and I played a few 3-person games and I'd always end the game with the largest deck. Most of the time I'd end with 40-60 cards, while my friends would always have 5-10 fewer cards than me.

I can't help but think that maybe you guys (the more experienced players) are playing with decks of 15-20 cards for super optimized engines. 

[painted_cow]

50 to 60 cards are really too much most of the time. But i think you guys will get thinner decks as you get more experienced.

Example: a deck with 5 Gold in 20 cards is basically the same as 10 golds in 40 cards. Same with action cards. Try to get more focused decks, which can get to 8$ in Province games.

Overall i think this "problem" will solve alone, as you get better.

[shark_bait]

"problem"

Can you say gardens?  :-)

[painted_cow]

Yes, I can:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110410-084352-a936f191.html

 Gardens 

[Stoc]

I'd say 20-25 cards is a reasonable ballpark for me, in games where I'm not intentionally bloating and don't have strong trashing available.

With a chapel deck, ending the game with 15 cards is very doable / viable. It's important to note that getting rid of bad cards is nearly as important as adding good cards.

[DG]

There isn't an optimal deck size. What you want is a deck that gives you good turns providing vp. You generally get this through having quality rather than quantity, otherwise all the poor cards get in the way of the good cards. However, if you can draw eight copper every turn and use them to buy a province then there isn't such a problem having that quantity of copper in your deck.

[papaHav]

Consider this deck:
2plats, 6 silvers.
You draw 5 silvers. If your only choices are to buy a plat or a mint (and trash 5 silvers) what would you do?

Consider this deck:
2plats, 6 silvers, 2 council rooms, 3 villages
You draw 5 silvers. If your only choices are to buy a plat or a mint (and trash 5 silvers) what would you do?

Clearly the first deck doesn't have much speed and a smaller deck size is very optimal
The 2nd deck has great speed! it can make use of a larger deck size (to a point) although you may want to eventually
 trash the silver and upgrade it (or not! if you think u can buy 1colony and end the game on a lead!)

The the problem of finding "optimal" i.e. most likely to win is that trashing and drawing themselves have speed.
Mint is a fast trasher. Chapel is a fast trasher... you might prefer a slow, bulky big money strat that gets a large buy every 4 turns
rather than waiting for islands and trade routes to refine your deck to 3 plats.

This problem of solving the optimal engine is the very meaning of playing dominion.

[shark_bait]

Yes, I can:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110410-084352-a936f191.html

 Gardens 

Ahhhh... you would bring up that one.  The game where ambassador get's beat.  Definitely a good example of a very successful garden based game.

[Blaeu]

I think this question is deceptively simple.  You will always want the SMALLEST deck you can possibly have that will allow you to win.  Yup, simple as that.

The catch is, with each table you play, your answer will change due to what kingdom cards are available to you.  I will also say that the only cards you can never have too many of are +Card, +Action cards as they will never bog down your deck*.  Also, there is always "the worst card" in your deck.  You could have a deck of Gold, Gold, Gold, Gold, Gold, Plat., and the worst card would be Gold.  So, never think there isn't room to cut something out.

Even with Gardens you should only go above 50 cards if you NEED them to be worth 5 VP to win.  If you can win with them at 4 VP, then do so (and you'll probably do so more quickly).

*It may be true that they don't bog down your deck, but before buying one, you should ask yourself if a Silver (or Gold) would be a better purchase.

[Reyk]

Yes, I can:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110410-084352-a936f191.html

 Gardens 

Ahhhh... you would bring up that one.  The game where ambassador get's beat.  Definitely a good example of a very successful garden based game.

Interesting game. I wonder if it was a good decision for shark_bait to join duchies beginning with turn 16. Not sure how the game would have ended if he would have bought venture (as counter to bureaucrat) and concentrating more on provinces instead. It's not so easy for painted_cow to deplete three piles. However I like the idea to counter Amb with Bureaucrat/Gardens.

[danshep]

I will also say that the only cards you can never have too many of are +Card, +Action cards as they will never bog down your deck*.

Just a note on this - avoid buying extra 'cantrip' cards (+Card, +Action) if you're doing any 'blind drawing' - ie, playing a smithy or similar card with your last action. If you've got 7 treasure in hand and you play a smithy to draw out 3 pawns, you're going to regret those purchases.

[WanderingWinder]

Also, there is always "the worst card" in your deck.  You could have a deck of Gold, Gold, Gold, Gold, Gold, Plat., and the worst card would be Gold.  So, never think there isn't room to cut something out.

Even with Gardens you should only go above 50 cards if you NEED them to be worth 5 VP to win.  If you can win with them at 4 VP, then do so (and you'll probably do so more quickly).

You don't want to cut the gold there anyway, though, because very soon you'll be buying VP, and then you'll need the money still in your deck to keep your money density up.
As for the Gardens, you just need to see your path to victory. As theory points out, Gardens usually wins by grabbing most of the Gardens and ending the game quickly on three piles. Rarely, gardens will win by having a hugely massive deck, but something to notice is that for a dedicated Gardens strategy, you still need to be able to build your deck up enough to have the purchasing/gaining power to actually buy all the gardens.

[fp]

I've only been playing Dominion with my newbie friends, so I don't have any experience related to this question. What is a good "optimal" deck size?

The smaller the better. Chapel, Lookout, Loan, and Ambassador are some of the best cards in the game.

This question is prompted by my games of Dominion last night, where my newbies and I played a few 3-person games and I'd always end the game with the largest deck. Most of the time I'd end with 40-60 cards, while my friends would always have 5-10 fewer cards than me.

I can't help but think that maybe you guys (the more experienced players) are playing with decks of 15-20 cards for super optimized engines. 

The key is not the quantity of cards, but the average relative value ("goodness") of your cards. If you have a bigger deck because you are buying more bigger and better cards, that is okay. A typical (2-player) game is roughly 20-24 turns. If you buy one card each turn, you would expect a 25-30 card deck- which is roughly slightly below a typical game.

[KMueller]

.

Example: a deck with 5 Gold in 20 cards is basically the same as 10 golds in 40 cards. Same with action cards. Try to get more focused decks, which can get to 8$ in Province games.

I agree, but was wondering how this would be affected by the Green Rush. Adding 5+ green cards into the 20-card Deck has a much higher percentage of green than the 40-card deck.

[v3ck]

Your deck is a cake. You want to make your cake as delicious as possible. You aren't going to do that by making just the right amount of batter; you're going to do it by making the batter with the right proportions of ingredients. Now get baking!

[Blaeu]

Your deck is a cake. You want to make your cake as delicious as possible. You aren't going to do that by making just the right amount of batter; you're going to do it by making the batter with the right proportions of ingredients. Now get baking!

The problem is, two cakes take longer to make than one, and just as 5 gold in a deck of 20 is the same ratio as 10 golds to 40, the latter takes too much time.

Of course the ratio of good cards to dead cards matters, but you cannot forget turn/time constraints when talking about deck size, or it loses all meaning.