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J.Co.

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Wish List - Just for fun
« on: July 31, 2012, 01:00:06 am »
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I don't remember what inspired me to do this, but I've been thinking about making a list of this for a long time. I'm sure we've all wanted to tweak various cards at one point or another, wishing that a card's ability was slightly different to make it cooler. I went through all the cards and made a wish list of changes I wouldn't have minded seeing.

Before beginning, I'm noting that none of these are playtested, and I'm sure a lot of you will think that even slight (or especially drastic) changes to most of these cards will throw the balance out of whack. Generally, that's probably true, but I wanted to do this anyway, so humor me. I tried to stay away from changing prices and stuck to card functionality, though I know that most of the cards would need to be more expensive, thus changing its entire nature. Oh well. Some of the changes are small and basic ideas, while others are modified with other ideas, some from later expansions. Either way, I think they'd be cool.

Anyway, here's my wish list:

Base set:
Adventurer - Allow to replace or discard all revealed non-treasure cards
Moneylender - Add following text: "Reveal hand if you have no copper. You may then trash this card."
Moat - Change "+2 cards" to "+1 card, +1 action" (cantrip defense, probably a game changer)
Spy - Allow it to look at top two cards instead of just one, keeping both or discarding both.
Thief - Allow stolen cards to be put on top of deck (that's probably way too powerful, but it'd be fun!)

Intrigue:
Upgrade - Change the text to say "You may trash..."
Wishing Well - Change "+1 card, +1 action" to "+1 action, +1 coin." At least this way, you can name the card correctly with another Wishing Well in hand, making it somewhat stackable.
Tribute - Player to left reveals 3 cards, you choose two. Player to left may or may not discard revealed cards.
Conspirator - Change text to say "If it's the third action card in play this turn..." This would let duration cards from the previous turn count as an action card toward Conspirator's count.
Scout - Add +1 card! (Would that not help our little Scout friend at least a little?)

Alchemy:
Transmute - Add +1 card, +1 action before the rest of the abilities
Possession -  Don't allow more than one consecutive turn to be possessed by the same player (make it unstackable, even if multiple possessions are played, or Throne Room is played in front of it.
Herbalist - Return any number of treasures in play to the top of your deck (yeah, that might be too powerful even for a wishlist, but it'd be fun).

Seaside:
Navigator - add +1 card after the rest of the card's abilities, maybe drop +$2 to +$1
Lookout - Draw one card instead of putting back on top of deck
Pearl Diver - Switch order of abilities (move card to top of deck, then draw it)
Merchant Ship - +1 Buy (Donald X gave it to Wharf instead. Why not both?)

Prosperity:
Rabble - Reveal four cards instead of three (I just feel it needs to be a little harsher)
Loan - After revealing treasure, trash it or put back on deck. Or what if you had to trash it, but you could add the money value to your purchase that turn (trash a Gold for +3)? Again, even for a wish list this is too powerful, but something needs to be done to this card to make it a little better.
Trade Route - "You may trash a card..."
Counting House - Add this clause: "If no copper is in your discard, put this back on top of your deck."

Cornucopia:
Harvest - only discard the duplicates. Put the rest back on top of the deck.
Jester - You choose if each player discards or not, too. Now we're talking!
Young Witch - Why even have a Bane pile?....Okay, too different, I agree. How about making the Bane card free? Or wait, what if every time Young Witch dealt a curse, you receive a Bane card, too? Or what if the game actually came with a default Bane card? How about this?

Bane - Action ($2)
+1 card, +$1
Reveal this card if Young Witch is played. You are unaffected by the attack.

(Remember, this is a wish list)

Hinterlands:
Cartographer - Look at five cards instead of four (why not the whole next hand?)
Noble Brigand - +2 coin instead of +1 (I just feel it needs this)
Mandarin - Get rid of the "put one card from hand on top of deck" clause

Promos:
Stash - "When you gain this or shuffle,..." (It's a promo card, so why not make it even crazier, right?).


Those are the main ones I came up with. Any changes to existing cards you wish were made?
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 04:54:31 am »
+1

Do you want criticism on your ideas or just our own?

Generally I don't like house rules, but if I had to change some things and try it out, I would like to playtest the following:

Thief - Change wording to:
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. If they revealed any Treasure cards, you may have them trash one of them that you choose. You may gain any or all of these trashed cards. They discard the other revealed cards.  If you did not gain any treasures in this way, gain a Silver.

Adventurer - Drop cost to $5

Scout - Change to 6 cards instead of 4.

Counting House - Add "You may gain a copper." to the beginning of the card.
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ftl

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 05:07:38 am »
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Except for Possession and Young Witch, every single change you're wishing for would make the card stronger!

Counter-wish:Tournament: There should be one copy of each Prize per player, and you can only get one of each. So you can't lock people out. Maybe make IGG blockable somehow, as it is the curse is unblockable.
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DStu

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 05:11:43 am »
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Counter-wish:Tournament: There should be one copy of each Prize per player, and you can only get one of each. So you can't lock people out.

... and maybe rename it to/subtitle "It's the taking part that counts!"
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Auto-Destruct Sequence

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 07:13:03 am »
+2

Maybe make IGG blockable somehow, as it is the curse is unblockable.

Watchtower
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Davio

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 08:50:23 am »
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Throne Room: You may

It's Donald's pet peeve. Not because he thinks it's horrible to Golem into a Throne Room with Ambassador and Provinces in your hand, but because it doesn't keep you honest. I.e. it doesn't say: "or reveal a hand with no actions"

KC does say "you may".
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Morgrim7

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 08:57:39 am »
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Adventurer: Reduce cost.
Chancellor: Add some other benefit.
Scout: Reduce cost to 0. :)
Tournament: I HATE FOLLOWERS. MAKE IT MORE FAIR.
Possession: This card is perfect in every way. I defy all people who despise it.
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Qvist

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 09:10:52 am »
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Like already mentioned in an old thread:
Tribute: Remove the "differently named" clause.

Grujah

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 09:45:02 am »
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Cornucopia:
Harvest - only discard the duplicates. Put the rest back on top of the deck.
I actually like this.  ;D
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Powerman

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 01:40:01 pm »
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Base:
Cellar - Add a +1 card to the beginning
Chancellor - Add a +1 action (yes probably needs to cost more)
Bureaucrat - Add +$1 for this turn
Spy - Switch the card draw till after the spying (like SP)
Adventurer - "Until you reveal 3 treasure cards.  Put 2 in your hand"

Intrigue:
Secret Chamber - Give it +1 action
Swindler - "Looks at the top 2 card and trashes one of their choice and gains a card that you choose"
Wishing Well - If they guess right, also +$1
Scout - Change it to 5 cards and also include curses

Seaside:
Lookout - Change it to $4 and look at top 4 cards and also put one into hand
Smugglers - Add "Or, gain a silver"
Explorer - "You may reveal a Victory Card costing at least $6"
Outpost - Draw 4, then discard 1 to start the turn.

Alchemy:
Transmute - +1 Action
Golem - "You may play the action cards in either order."

Prosperity:
Loan - "If you trash it, +$ equal to it's value"
Quarry - +1 Buy
Counting House - +1 Buy
King's Court - Something to make it so it doesn't break every other card.

Cornucopia:
Fortune Teller - "If he does not reveal a victory or curse card, he gains a curse"
Bag of Gold - Give it a +$1 when played

Hinterlands:
Develop - "You may put them on top of your deck"
Embassy - "each other player gains a Silver on their deck"
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 02:26:17 pm »
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Chancellor (3)
Action
+$2
You may immediately put your deck into your discard pile. If you do, put a card from your discard pile on top of your deck.

LastFootnote

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 03:00:43 pm »
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Thief
Types: Action - Attack
Cost: $4
+$1. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. If they revealed any Treasure cards, they trash one of them that you choose. You may gain any or all of these trashed cards. They discard the other revealed cards.

Scout
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory and Curse cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

Other than that, I'd like to see better versions of Pirate Ship, Goons, and Governor. Those are great examples of why you shouldn't start with a name/flavor/picture and try to create a working card out of it.
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Young Nick

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2012, 04:38:06 pm »
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Other than that, I'd like to see better versions of Pirate Ship, Goons, and Governor. Those are great examples of why you shouldn't start with a name/flavor/picture and try to create a working card out of it.

What don't you like about these cards? These are three of my favorites. Also, what evidence do you have that DXV started off with a name/flavor/picture instead of a card idea? Seems baseless to me.

Golem - "You may play the action cards in either order."

I don't get this. How would you play both simultaneously? Or do you mean that they can choose not to play either action card? If so, it should be clarified.
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rinkworks

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2012, 05:11:14 pm »
+7

So many of these suggestions would make Dominion a worse game.  The general theme seems to be taking out what's inconvenient about various cards.  But if cards don't have any drawbacks, where is the opportunity to strategize?  The game is all about trying to figure out ways to use balanced cards in contexts where the strengths matter and the drawbacks don't.  But if all the cards cater to your whims in every way, who cares?

The suggestions also tend to add complexity to the game, which is not unworkable, but the really simple cards that are nevertheless interesting have a certain charm that a bunch of niggling exceptions and clarifications destroy.

cool.
Moneylender - Add following text: "Reveal hand if you have no copper. You may then trash this card."

The inability for a trasher to self-trash is a much more interesting tension than if they always cleaned up after themselves.  Having a dead card around later is usually well-worth the ability to get rid of a bunch of Coppers.

Quote
Moat - Change "+2 cards" to "+1 card, +1 action" (cantrip defense, probably a game changer)

Yup, and not in a good way:  you'd never buy Attacks, because it would be harmless for someone to load up on Moats, and if you never bought Attacks, why buy Moats?   It's way more interesting if defense against Attacks incurs a penalty of some sort, and/or requires you to find a way to make that defense work within the deck you're building.

Quote
Spy - Allow it to look at top two cards instead of just one, keeping both or discarding both.

So Oracle?

Quote
Upgrade - Change the text to say "You may trash..."

Here again, a change that would be devastating to the strategic component of the game.  Upgrade offers powerful trashing.  If it's almost never harmful to your deck, there's little strategy required to figure you could use one of these.  If it might be a liability sometimes, taking up a slot in your hand when you don't want to upgrade anything, that forces you to think more strategically.

Quote
Navigator - add +1 card after the rest of the card's abilities, maybe drop +$2 to +$1

That's probably balanced, but obliterates the aesthetics of the card.   The whole point of Navigator is, in a nutshell, "Skip your next turn if you don't like it," not "Pick a card you want to draw if you think the other four cards would make 80% of a good turn next turn, or, alternately, skip all those cards and draw something blind."

Quote
Merchant Ship - +1 Buy (Donald X gave it to Wharf instead. Why not both?)

Why both?  Why not every card, in fact, so that we never have to worry about accruing +Buys?

There are already lots of cards that offer money in conjunction with +Buy -- Woodcutter, Festival, Horse Traders, and Baron, to name a few.  Isn't it more interesting for some cards to lack it -- and other cards to provide it without providing coins (e.g., Worker's Village) -- so that sometimes the game makes you fit the pieces together in a coherent strategy?

For what it's worth, this isn't a game-breaking change.  I could have lived with Merchant Ship getting the +Buy instead of Wharf.  But there's an overall balance to strike here, or the game will become less fun rather than more.

Quote
Rabble - Reveal four cards instead of three (I just feel it needs to be a little harsher)

Stacked Rabbles can already make you play a 2-card turn, which is more than most attacks can do to you, even when stacked.  With four cards, you could make someone play 1-card turns.

Quote
Trade Route - "You may trash a card..."

Again, removes strategy.  The fact that some specific card doesn't work great in every deck is a feature, not a bug.

Cellar - Add a +1 card to the beginning

If Cellars don't potentially hurt your hand, you just always pick these up when you've got extra Buys, and it won't take very many to ensure you play with your best 5 cards every turn.  Much more interesting if there's tension between the benefit and the potential for a drawback.

Quote
Golem - "You may play the action cards in either order."

Here, similarly, is a change that would remove strategy from the game.  The fact that you tend to have to choose between Golem and, say, Remake, is a good thing for the game.

Quote
Quarry - +1 Buy

A Gold for Action cards isn't good enough for a $4 card already?

--

To be fair, a few suggestions I omitted responding to wouldn't be so very bad, and a couple might arguably be improvements.  But overall, it feels like what you're wishing for is a less interesting game.  More of a race than a game, since the game would be won by math and shuffle luck more than by thinking about how different cards work well or don't work well together.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 05:12:49 pm by rinkworks »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2012, 05:39:27 pm »
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Other than that, I'd like to see better versions of Pirate Ship, Goons, and Governor. Those are great examples of why you shouldn't start with a name/flavor/picture and try to create a working card out of it.

What don't you like about these cards? These are three of my favorites. Also, what evidence do you have that DXV started off with a name/flavor/picture instead of a card idea? Seems baseless to me.

It's all in the Secret Histories. Check them out sometime.

Quote from: Secret History of Seaside
Pirate Ship: This started out as a victory card that was worth more points based on how much treasure you stole with it. It was an actual flavor-based design - what would pirates do?

Quote from: Secret History of Prosperity
- $5; Goons. "+$2. Choose two: +1 Action; each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand; take a 1 VP token; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)" Okay so the set always needed a card with that art. It was leftover from Intrigue (it was for Pawn). I decided to call the art Goons, and then made a card to fit the name.

Quote from: Secret History of the Promos
I said, are there any other games with anniversaries coming up? And Jay said, as a matter of fact. Puerto Rico was also having an anniversary. And well simulating Puerto Rico on a Dominion card was easy; the only issue was making the text fit, which I cleverly managed via "you get the version in parentheses." So while the previous promos were expansion outtakes, this one is a new card.

As for what I don't like about them, Goons and Governor are boring because you want to buy them in literally about 99% of games. Pirate Ship seems usually either completely useless or completely dominant. It's not nearly as bad as Goons and Governor, but I'm personally not a fan of it.

EDIT: To be fair, Governor started off with a mechanic as much as a flavor. Still, it seems like it needs more playtesting and tweaking.

Golem - "You may play the action cards in either order."

I don't get this. How would you play both simultaneously? Or do you mean that they can choose not to play either action card? If so, it should be clarified.

What he means is that you're not obligated to play the two cards you reveal.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 05:40:50 pm by LastFootnote »
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Young Nick

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2012, 05:43:15 pm »
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Well I stand corrected in every sense of the word. Excuse me while I remove my foot from my mouth.
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One Armed Man

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2012, 06:27:58 pm »
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My Thief (posted elsewhere as Burglar): 4: Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. If they revealed any Treasure cards, you may choose to trash up to one of the revealed treasures from each player. You may gain any or all of these trashed cards. They discard the other revealed cards. If you gain exactly one of the trashed cards, you may place it on top of your deck.

Scout: +2 actions instead of +1. This only causes a problem with Nobles chains, but it seems safe enough.

Adventurer doesn't need its own Big Money Draw strategy. Instead, it could have "Gain a Silver" before the searching.

IGG: When you gain this, each other player gains a Curse, placing it in their hand.

Explorer: Gain a Gold. You may reveal a Province card from your hand. If you do, put the gained Gold in your hand.

Bag of Gold: +2 actions instead of +1.

Transmute: +1 action.

Other people's:
Secret Chamber +1 Action
Counting House +1 Buy
Develop: "You may" to the top decking
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 06:29:27 pm by One Armed Man »
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Powerman

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2012, 06:35:16 pm »
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Golem - "You may play the action cards in either order."

I don't get this. How would you play both simultaneously? Or do you mean that they can choose not to play either action card? If so, it should be clarified.

What he means is that you're not obligated to play the two cards you reveal.
Yeah, that's what I meant.  Yes it adds a decision for remake etc. but too me it just adds swinginess.

And to the comment on the changes making the cards worse, well... they make them different.  The price would probably need to change often, but the bolded ones are the ones I feel make the card better (not necessarily strength, just in terms of swing and fun gameplay), although maybe a change of price is needed.
Base:
Cellar - Add a +1 card to the beginning
Chancellor - Add a +1 action (yes probably needs to cost more)
Bureaucrat - Add +$1 for this turn
Spy - Switch the card draw till after the spying (like SP)
Adventurer - "Until you reveal 3 treasure cards.  Put 2 in your hand"

Intrigue:
Secret Chamber - Give it +1 action
Swindler - "Looks at the top 2 card and trashes one of their choice and gains a card that you choose"
Wishing Well - If they guess right, also +$1
Scout - Change it to 5 cards and also include curses

Seaside:
Lookout - Change it to $4 and look at top 4 cards and also put one into hand
Smugglers - Add "Or, gain a silver"
Explorer - "You may reveal a Victory Card costing at least $6"
Outpost - Draw 4, then discard 1 to start the turn.

Alchemy:
Transmute - +1 Action
Golem - "You may play the action cards in either order."

Prosperity:
Loan - "If you trash it, +$ equal to it's value"
Quarry - +1 Buy
Counting House - +1 Buy
King's Court - Something to make it so it doesn't break every other card.

Cornucopia:
Fortune Teller - "If he does not reveal a victory or curse card, he gains a curse"
Bag of Gold - Give it a +$1 when played

Hinterlands:
Develop - "You may put them on top of your deck"
Embassy - "each other player gains a Silver on their deck"
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Kahryl

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2012, 08:20:10 pm »
+1

I second rinkworks. Filling your cards with "mays" removes depth from the game. I LIKE how even very friendly helpful cards have a "dark" side where you might not want to play them or even have them in your deck.

That said, changes I'd make (many already posted here)

Buffs:
Throne Room: Add "may" for accountability
Adventurer: Reduce price to $5
Scout: Look at top 6 cards, not 4 (probably the worst power-measuring mistake in Dominion)
Tribute: Remove "differently named" clause
Merchant Ship: Add +buys to this and next turn
Transmute: Transmuting money should gain you an "action costing up to $4 or $3◉"
Talisman: Should allow gaining victory cards
Develop: Let player choose whether to put cards on deck or discard (can be different choices)
Farmland: Change to "up to $2 more"
Stash: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3634.0

Nerfs:
Chapel: Raise price to $4
Torturer: Discard option only removes 1 card if your handsize is already 4 or less.
Fishing Village: Raise price to $4
Wharf: Remove +buys
Scrying Pool: Remove attack
Jack of All Trades: "Do all but one of the following.." mainly to make Jack less mindless


« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 08:35:52 pm by Kahryl »
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Taco Lobster

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2012, 09:24:31 pm »
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I agree with rinkworks as well.  There's a small subset of cards that could use a tweak or two in retrospect (Adventurer, Thief, Scout), but the tweaks in the initial post change the cards from "requires thought to play correctly" to "win more, lots more."

The Secret History, referenced above already, has lots of info and analysis on the pricing decisions made by Donald X.
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J.Co.

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2012, 09:34:00 pm »
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Do you want criticism on your ideas or just our own?

I'm totally fine with criticism of my ideas, but just keep in mind the premise of the thread.
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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2012, 09:35:03 pm »
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Transmute: Transmuting money should gain you an "action costing up to $4 or $3◉"

Why not just $4P? It's not like getting a Golem after your second reshuffle is overpowered by any means, and it's maybe slightly better than Transmuting Estates to Gold (plus Golem is very often not in the kingdom).
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J.Co.

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2012, 09:35:49 pm »
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Except for Possession and Young Witch, every single change you're wishing for would make the card stronger!

Counter-wish:Tournament: There should be one copy of each Prize per player, and you can only get one of each. So you can't lock people out. Maybe make IGG blockable somehow, as it is the curse is unblockable.


Yes....You somewhat figured out a little spoiler. I was planning on making another post with ways to weaken the cards I'd like to see weakened. I threw in YW because it was more an overall than simple nerfing, and Possession will appear again for sure.
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J.Co.

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2012, 09:38:39 pm »
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Cornucopia:
Harvest - only discard the duplicates. Put the rest back on top of the deck.
I actually like this.  ;D
Thanks. I figured it'd help your next hand be diverse too, which fits in with the Cornucopia theme.
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J.Co.

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Re: Wish List - Just for fun
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2012, 09:49:42 pm »
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So many of these suggestions would make Dominion a worse game.  The general theme seems to be taking out what's inconvenient about various cards.  But if cards don't have any drawbacks, where is the opportunity to strategize?  The game is all about trying to figure out ways to use balanced cards in contexts where the strengths matter and the drawbacks don't.  But if all the cards cater to your whims in every way, who cares?

The suggestions also tend to add complexity to the game, which is not unworkable, but the really simple cards that are nevertheless interesting have a certain charm that a bunch of niggling exceptions and clarifications destroy.


The reasoning behind a lot of these wishes is that sometime Dominion can be too robotic. If certain Power 5s, Alt VPs, Chapel, cursers, etc., are on the board, they become auto buys. Sure, there's ways to get around a lot them even without these changes (which is what makes Dominion such a good game anyway), but generally, good Dominion players are going to know what's good and what's not going be worth it, and the game boils down to mirror matches, 1P advantage, or one to two differences in luck that mean everything. Giving more cards more opportunities to be useful could actually spice up the game. Just IMHO.
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