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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards  (Read 108782 times)

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Powerman

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2012, 11:52:48 pm »
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My thoughts (don't remember how I ranked them exactly, but...) are:

Mandarin = ranked too highly.  From my experience the card is worse than HT for money, as discarding 2 cards is usually more effective than top decking from a non enlarged hand.

Outpost = ranked too highly.  It's just weak unless you have some way of exploiting it (ie. a schemed SP , alchemist , minion , etc.) but even then, Outpost itself isn't strong... it's the rest of the deck that is strong.

Tribute = ranked too highly.  Maybe I'm just slanted by my memories of getting exactly what I didn't want, and having my opponent flip over the same 2 cards... but I really am not a fan.

Counting House = ranked too lowly.  Yes, it's a bad card... but not the worst card.  I find it useful in a lot more situations than most of the cards here.  The combos of Golem / Chancellor / Coppersmith /etc. are nice and all, but I like it any time you end up with more than 7 coppers.  What cards cause this?  Cache, Mountebank, Ambassador (potentially), Gardens, Goons, Apothecary + Discard.

Saboteur = ranked too lowly.  Again, it's a horrible card.  But just the threat of it makes it not the second worst card out of the $5s.  I mean, have you ever adjusted your strategy because your opponent bought, say a Royal Seal?  Obviously not.  But with Saboteur, you really need to have SOME time of a counter (either silver flood, putting cards on mats, etc.) if they can play it a lot.

But I understand the placement of all these cards.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2012, 12:13:27 am »
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: People who think Outpost is crap don't understand Outpost :P Is either Wharf (with +actions) or Caravan (alone) available? Outpost is probably good. Is it remotely conceivable that an even barely-functional double-Tactician engine could be built? Outpost is probably good. How about Menagerie? Minion? Sure, don't buy it if you have a deck where a 3-card hand isn't likely to go anywhere. But man, believe me, it is just obscenely great in Wharf engines and double-Tactician decks, and it's pretty good in a lot of other circumstances too. Like, would you enjoy having two full turns during the endgame for each turn your opponent gets (assuming they don't follow along)? Outpost may be for you!

I gain Outpost more than a quarter of the time, with a positive "effect with". It's not even in the top 10 most situational cards.

Way back when, I got it into my head that Outpost was a horrible noob-trap that gave you turns you could never do anything with.  By the time guided wrote this, I had realized it was good with mass Minion and double-Tac, and was starting to use it in other sorts of engines.

I buy Outpost regularly now- it's risen from probably something like buy in 12-15% of my games to just over 25% now.  It's really good for a wider variety of engines than you might think, basically if you're in draw your deck mode OR it's the only way to get +Buy.  I ranked it #37, and could very easily have slipped it ahead of Mint.

I mean, it's still quite situational, don't get me wrong.  But not only are its good situations more frequent than the rest of this dreck (save Mint of course), it does more for you when it's good than most of these cards, too.  Outpost is definitely the best of the "bad" cards.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 12:15:06 am by chwhite »
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2012, 01:45:56 am »
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Outpost = ranked too highly.  It's just weak unless you have some way of exploiting it (ie. a schemed SP , alchemist , minion , etc.) but even then, Outpost itself isn't strong... it's the rest of the deck that is strong.

I have Outpost significantly higher (24).  I gave it some more points to "how strong it is when it's strong?". And @therestofthedeckisstrong: Maybe, but Outpost essentially doubles the power of your already strong deck. And the strong deck does not benefit you anything if the strength of your opponents deck doubles yours.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2012, 05:48:08 am »
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Talking about Outpost, what about "draw up to..." such as JoaT, library and so on, like minion ? They're at least as important as other duration cards ! Especially if you can save'em with haven !
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Morgrim7

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2012, 05:50:37 am »
+1

Explorer is underrated.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2012, 07:24:15 am »
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Let me echo that this list is basically right on, though Explorer could use a bit of a bump, and Harvest--which is a card I feel is underrated generally--is actually a little overrated here.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2012, 08:53:36 am »
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Quote from: Qvist
And it can discard all your good cards you wanted to play in the next turn and even trigger an unwanted reshuffle.
And it can discard all your bad cards you don't wanted to play in the next turn and even trigger a wanted reshuffle.

Seriously, Harvest is really underrated. I'm convinced it's better than merchant ship, which is already an underrated card.
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Davio

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2012, 08:55:46 am »
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When deciding how to rate cards, I think it's important to note in how many games the card could actually be useful.

If you have a card that is absolutely critical in a setup that has to feature X, Y and Z as well, it may be very good in those instances, it's a bad card overall.

Like Outpost: Yes, it's good with Scrying Pool, Alchemists (and/or Treasuries) and maybe some cards like Watchtower or Library, but how often do you actually play an Outpost engine? More often than not the card is just a filler in the supply.

A good card is a card that's often bought and not just a filler. I rarely pass on Goons, I almost often pass on Counting House.
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2012, 09:18:02 am »
+1

When deciding how to rate cards, I think it's important to note in how many games the card could actually be useful.

That's what you say. I think a say Oasis, that you can use in 90% of the games, but which in 85% of the games could as well has been a Silver without you noticing it at all, is a less influential card than a Outpost, that you can use in 25% of the games, but which has to be an Outpost in 25% of the games.

I don't think it's a bad card overall, because you just don't buy it in these 75% of the games, so it can't be bad for you.  Of course, you somehow have to balance. How often is it good, how influential is it in this cases, what are the alternatives?  And everybody has to find their own balance there, and after all, I wouldn't insist that my balance is objectively better than any other. Not that it is even consistent.

And  @Outpost: It might be a no brainer with Alchemists/Treasury, some SP-engines, some Scheme settings, Festival/FishingVillage-Wathctower/Library but that doesn't mean that these no-brainers are the only situations where you can use it.  Cantrip-engines (Lab/HP/Stables, Conspirator) might also benefit from Outpost (maybe not every turn, but 2/3 might be enough), Haven was mentioned, Courtyard/Mandarin/Develop can be enough to guarantee a bootstrap, Tactician, and even the classical Village/Smithy-engine might benefit from the chance on an additional turn. You can also trick with Warehouse/Cellar/Vault/Secret Chamber in the right situations.
In BigMoney, Outpost is not the card for you, but in the end every reliable engine has a reasonable chance to start from 3 cards, even from a completely random hand, and Outpost gives you this chance for an extra turn.  It takes some other cards to make that work, but there always are 9 other on the table.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2012, 02:19:33 pm »
+3

Seriously, Harvest is really underrated. I'm convinced it's better than merchant ship, which is already an underrated card.

...This is madness, sorry.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2012, 02:38:04 pm »
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Oh, and I definitely think Counting House and Saboteur should be switched. And least there's a general recurring situation where Couting House works (ie Mountebank). Saboteur is almost always an act of desperation that doesnt pay off.
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2012, 02:54:43 pm »
+1

Oh, and I definitely think Counting House and Saboteur should be switched. And least there's a general recurring situation where Couting House works (ie Mountebank). Saboteur is almost always an act of desperation that doesnt pay off.

no way! Saboteur counters minion, black market, gardens-rush, and duke strategies, at least as well as counting house counters mountebank.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2012, 03:53:36 pm »
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Oh, and I definitely think Counting House and Saboteur should be switched. And least there's a general recurring situation where Couting House works (ie Mountebank). Saboteur is almost always an act of desperation that doesnt pay off.

no way! Saboteur counters minion, black market, gardens-rush, and duke strategies, at least as well as counting house counters mountebank.

I completely disagree. It counters Duke perhaps. It doesn't counter those other things very well at all.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2012, 03:59:51 pm »
+1

Oh, and I definitely think Counting House and Saboteur should be switched. And least there's a general recurring situation where Couting House works (ie Mountebank). Saboteur is almost always an act of desperation that doesnt pay off.

no way! Saboteur counters minion, black market, gardens-rush, and duke strategies, at least as well as counting house counters mountebank.

I completely disagree. It counters Duke perhaps. It doesn't counter those other things very well at all.

I wouldn't think of Saboteur as something that can effectively blunt Black Market or Gardens decks.  An actual Gardens rush is too fast, and against Black Market it's way too chancy.

However, it is legitimately powerful against (and with!) Minions.  Sab/Minion is more of a thing than Mountebank/Counting House, in my experience.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 06:24:01 pm by chwhite »
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dondon151

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2012, 06:33:39 pm »
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I wouldn't think of Saboteur as something that can effectively blunt Black Market or Gardens decks.  An actual Gardens rush is too fast, and against Black Market it's way too chancy.

I thought it was established that most Gardens rushes are not fast?
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2012, 07:11:08 pm »
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I wouldn't think of Saboteur as something that can effectively blunt Black Market or Gardens decks.  An actual Gardens rush is too fast, and against Black Market it's way too chancy.

I thought it was established that most Gardens rushes are not fast?
Most gardens DECKS are not rushes. Most rushes are fast (i.e. workshop gardens or faster, is pretty fast. But there are often engines that are even faster).

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2012, 08:04:43 pm »
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"Rush" was a wrong thing that I should not have said. Saboteur is a good counter to alternate vp strategies (except vineyard, obviously), especially slower ones. Again, these uses of saboteur aren't that impressive - they're just more impressive than counting house as a counter to mountebank.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2012, 05:45:34 am »
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Seriously, Harvest is really underrated. I'm convinced it's better than merchant ship, which is already an underrated card.

...This is madness, sorry.

No.
In a good engine, Harvest give easily 4$ (even more often than 3$, if trashing).
Merchant ship is better in Big money games. Otherwise, the fact that it is a duration card make it much worse than Harvest.
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dondon151

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2012, 06:08:09 am »
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No.
In a good engine, Harvest give easily 4$ (even more often than 3$, if trashing).
Merchant ship is better in Big money games. Otherwise, the fact that it is a duration card make it much worse than Harvest.

No.
In a good engine, Merchant ship give 4$ over 2 turns.
Harvest is better in Big money games. The fact that Merchant ship is a duration card makes it much better than Harvest.

See what I did there?
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Fabian

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2012, 06:31:10 am »
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Lol dondon I was like "huh I've never seen dondon post poorly thought out + crap advice what the hell" and then I was like "oic :)"
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hobo386

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2012, 08:32:03 am »
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I'm just gonna chime in and agree that (with the exception of outpost and maybe Mint), these all deserve to be in the below #36, but I would heavily change the ordering.  I'd probably go (Bad Cards)Harvest->Sab->Counting House->Tribute->Stash->Cache->Explorer->Royal Seal->(Good Cards)Mine->Mandarin->Outpost->Mint from worst to best of these cards.  I'd be a bit tempted to throw in Venture and Horn of Plenty somewhere into the pile around Mandarin as well.  Jester, Treasury, Bazaar, Market, Highway and Inn would probably come right after, though I'm not sure of the ordering. And I might even put Jester below Mint.

(Though the strongest few I think are much harder to decide. Probably #1 Hunting Party, #2 Governor, #3 Wharf? I mean, attack cards are nice and all, but a lighthouse can shut them down.  It's very hard to ignore HP/Gov/Wharf and win.)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 08:34:34 am by hobo386 »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2012, 08:44:04 am »
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For the strongest 4, it's fairly decided. Anything other than 1) Witch 2) Mountebank 3) Wharf 4) Hunting party would be a travesty.
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Qvist

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2012, 09:04:31 am »
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For the strongest 4, it's fairly decided. Anything other than 1) Witch 2) Mountebank 3) Wharf 4) Hunting party would be a travesty.

Maybe you can already prepare buying new clothes? ;)

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2012, 09:22:22 am »
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For the strongest 4, it's fairly decided. Anything other than 1) Witch 2) Mountebank 3) Wharf 4) Hunting party would be a travesty.
Hmmm, that's not my top 4.....

And in no way is harvest better than MS; it is VERY difficult to find a place where you take it over MS at all.

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $5 cards
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2012, 09:57:12 am »
+2

I don't think Harvest is better than Merchant Ship, but it's definitely not a bad card!  Treat it as a terminal Gold; when it's a terminal Silver, it's probably discarding Coppers.
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