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Author Topic: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM  (Read 2613 times)

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ehunt

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A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« on: July 29, 2012, 07:55:05 pm »



"obvious play is obvious" - theorel

the big tl;dr: the word WIFOM is used too much, and many allegedly WIFOM situations are in fact quite concretely solvable.

Here's a modified WIFOM game. (It's kinda lame, cause nobody dies.) I'll call it false WIFOM. We sit in front of a table with a green glass and a white glass. I secretly write down a word "green" or "white" on a piece of paper to "poison" that glass. You choose a glass and "drink" from it.  If you sip from the poison glass, you have to give me ten dollars. However, if you drink from the green glass, I have to give you five dollars (whether it was was poisoned or not).

At first glance, this seems similar to the classical WIFOM problem (same game without the green glass twist). The drinker's strategy should be "go for the green glass," since it has the bonus, except, wait, the poisoner knows that, so the poisoner will just poison the green glass, so you should really go for the white glass, except, wait...

However, I claim there is a subtle difference. To see this it's helpful to employ the language of "mixed strategy." In a "mixed strategy," both players make their choices based on some sort of randomness, like, say, a die roll. So the poisoner might flip a coin and poison if the coin turns up heads, say.

An "equilibrium solution" to a game (for the purpose of this post) is a mixed strategy for both players that neither player can gain by deviating from (unless the other also deviates). In other words, the equilibrium solution yields the maximum score that one player can make given that his opponent plays perfectly, and vice-versa.

It turns out that there's a definitive answer to the question: which mixed strategy should the players adopt going into this game? (At least if by that we mean "find an equilibrium solution.") The poisoner should poison the green glass with probability 3/4, and the drinker should pick the green glass with probability 1/2. Two proofs below, spoilered for people who don't like math.



Proof (with calculus): The second person's expected gain from the game (which is actually a loss) is a function of two variables: x, the probability that the poisoner poisons the green glass, and y, the probability that the drinker drinks from the green glass. More precisely,

P(x, y) = y(5  - 10x) - 10(1-y)(1-x)

The equilibrium solution is the "saddle point" of this function. In other words, it's the point on the graph where, if x is fixed, and y is allowed to vary, P(x, y) only goes down, but if y is fixed, and x is allowed to vary, P(x, y) only goes up. It's a straightforward calculation to see that x = 3/4 and y = 1/2.

Second "proof" (just algebra, but an intuitive argument that I find a little sketchy): The first player, intuitively, should pick a strategy that leaves the second player with no real choice, i.e. should put the second player in a classical WIFOM position. If he poisons the green glass with probability x, the expected payoff to the second player for picking that glass is 5 - 10x. The expected payoff for the second player picking the white glass is -10(1-x), and he wants these numbers to be equal.



What's the moral? Well, if you're the guy drinking the glass, there is no moral. The other player can pick an optimal strategy that makes you 50-50, and so you may as well have been playing literal WIFOM. You might conclude that this analysis has no bearing on the game of mafia, but I don't agree.

Here's why: let's say you're a fly on the wall in the modified WIFOM game. You're not going to drink a glass or poison a glass; you're just watching. You have a side bet with another fly on the wall. Your bet is: which glass did the poisoner put the poison in? What should you bet? Of course you should bet he put it in the green glass (since in the equilibrium solution, he did so 75% of the time). The second player still picks the green glass sometimes because of the shift of the risk-reward calculation, but it doesn't change the basic fact that the green glass is more likely to be poisoned.

In Mafia, your role is part glass-drinker, part fly-on-the-wall. Sometimes (e.g. LyLo) you really are in classic zero-information WIFOM - they've put you in a position that you have to make a random guess. But if there's a lot of game left, you learn information about other players from moves they've made. So when you see someone make a move that's actively bad for scum (i.e. it would be hurting his own team if he were scum), you should think "I've gained some information that he is less likely to be scum" in spite of the WIFOM. Likewise, when you see someone make a move that's actively good for scum, you should think "he's more likely to be scum," not "scum would never do that, it's too obvious, unless that's what scum WANTS me to think, unless . . ."
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Eevee

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2012, 08:01:56 pm »

Good post, agree 100%!
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cayvie

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 08:26:49 pm »

I feel like the term WIFOM gets attached to arguments where it really doesn't apply.

If you have a read on someone, and you see them do something that corroborates that read, then, really, you're probably better off asking yourself the question "how sure am I that this isn't confirmation bias?" than asking yourself "would scum really do that?"

This isn't meant to argue against the original post here, btw.
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18:28 MEASURE YOUR LIFE IN LOVE: you shouldve done the decent thing and resign rather than go on being that lucky all the time

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Eevee

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 08:30:37 pm »

I feel like the term WIFOM gets attached to arguments where it really doesn't apply.

If you have a read on someone, and you see them do something that corroborates that read, then, really, you're probably better off asking yourself the question "how sure am I that this isn't confirmation bias?" than asking yourself "would scum really do that?"

This isn't meant to argue against the original post here, btw.
I think its important to remember like ~25% of the stuff we read in a mafia game is actually scum talking and appearing less insightful than they might actually be capable of.
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Grujah

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 05:56:08 am »

Always poison the green glass, you cannot lose. Only draw.
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Slow Dog

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 09:33:13 am »

Also chiming in with "I don't understand your stupid game". If I drink from the white glass, I either gain 0, or lose 10. Any deviation from "Drink from the green glass" is a losing proposition.
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ehunt

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 09:43:13 am »

Always poison the green glass, you cannot lose. Only draw.

This strategy does indeed produce a draw, but the poisoner does better than "always draw" with the Nash equilibrium strategy

expected payoff = (i put a wrong number here when i originally wrote the post! but the point is it's > 0.)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 04:21:44 pm by ehunt »
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ehunt

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 09:44:13 am »

Also chiming in with "I don't understand your stupid game". If I drink from the white glass, I either gain 0, or lose 10. Any deviation from "Drink from the green glass" is a losing proposition.

Nope, a P2 strategy where you always drink from the green glass loses to a P1 strategy that always poisons the green glass.
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Slow Dog

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 03:06:16 pm »

Also chiming in with "I don't understand your stupid game". If I drink from the white glass, I either gain 0, or lose 10. Any deviation from "Drink from the green glass" is a losing proposition.

Nope, a P2 strategy where you always drink from the green glass loses to a P1 strategy that always poisons the green glass.

No, it's a draw.

What I really don't get is this:
Your numbers (for P1) are
Quote from: ehunt
the poisoner does better than "always draw" with the Nash equilibrium strategy

expected payoff = (3/4) [(1/2)*5 + (1/2)*0] + (1/4)[(1/2)*10 + 0] > 0.
Fine. That's an expected score for P2 of < 0. How's that better than 0 for P2 always green?

Even more, assuming P2 knows that your dodgy maths solution is that P1 goes for White sometimes, P2's best strategy is to still to go Green all the time, 'cos  P2 will get cash every time P1 goes White.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 03:08:04 pm by Slow Dog »
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theorel

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 03:14:20 pm »

P2 loses 5 if P1 poisons the glass.  (He only gains 5 by choosing the green glass, but loses 10 if it's poisoned 5 - 10 = -5)

The actual optimal strategy for P2 is not to play, but we can assume he is forced to play.
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cayvie

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 03:25:15 pm »

i heard that .999... is equal to 1!
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18:28 MEASURE YOUR LIFE IN LOVE: you shouldve done the decent thing and resign rather than go on being that lucky all the time

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theorel

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2012, 03:37:23 pm »

The expected payout above is wrong. 

It should be:
(3/4)[1/2*5 + 0] + 1/4[1/2*(10) + 1/2*(-5)]=15/8 + 5/8 = 20/8 =  5/2(this indicates the poisoner gains $2.50 on average.)

If P2 always chooses Green, the poisoner gains:
(3/4)(5) + (1/4)(-5) = 5/2 = 2.5

If P2 always chooses White, the poisoner gains:
(3/4)(0) + 1/4(10) = 5/2 = 2.5

So, it looks like the equilibrium solution for the poisoner makes it so that the drinker's decision is irrelevant here...unless choosing something in-between the boundaries is less ideal.
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Slow Dog

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2012, 03:57:45 pm »

P2 loses 5 if P1 poisons the glass.  (He only gains 5 by choosing the green glass, but loses 10 if it's poisoned 5 - 10 = -5)
Ah, Ok.

Quote from: theorel
The actual optimal strategy for P2 is not to play, but we can assume he is forced to play.

Ok. I propose a new game where P2 pays $1,000,000,000. We can, of course, assume he's forced to play...
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Eevee

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2012, 04:03:01 pm »



So, it looks like the equilibrium solution for the poisoner makes it so that the drinker's decision is irrelevant here.
Yup, I'm pretty sure this is correct.

I actually studied GTO some because of poker, but I'm both lazy and bad at math so ~never bother to calculate anything.
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eHalcyon

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2012, 04:08:13 pm »

Just to help with people trying to work out the game theory, the payoffs look like this:

| pg| pw
dg| -5,5| 5,-5
dw| 0,0| -10,10

pg/pw = poison green/white
dg/dw = drink green/white

payoffs are (drinker, poisoner)

To get ehunt's formula,

let x = probability of pg
(1-x) = probability of pw

let y = probability of dg
(1-y) = probability of dw

Payoff for the drinker is thus

P(x,y) = y(5  - 10x) - 10(1-y)(1-x)

(Edited because I had variables described incorrectly)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 04:21:51 pm by eHalcyon »
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ehunt

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2012, 04:20:31 pm »

We can pretend they play the game 10,000 times but are paid $100,000 to do so (e.g. for a very boring game show) if you want to make it so both players have an incentive to play (it is just a theoretical model) and to give it enough time to make their strategies reach equilibrium.

Thanks eHalcyon for the chart! I didn't do a good job explaining myself.
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Galzria

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Re: A long essay-ish post about WIFOM
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2012, 05:33:57 pm »

i heard that .999... is equal to 1!

Proof!

 

I saw it on the Internet, so it must be true.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20
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