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Author Topic: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal  (Read 8131 times)

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Rush_Clasic

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Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« on: July 28, 2012, 04:52:52 pm »
0

Coal (3)
Treasure
When you play this, you may trash a card from your hand. This is worth $1 per card you trashed this turn.



  • Not all treasures are shimmery. Some need to be worked and refined.
  • I considered making this without the option to trash a card, but it felt awkward. I think that version could exist. I'm eager to hear opinions on that.
  • Multiples of this help each other. Not the easiest feature to take advantage of, but a neat one.
  • I'm uncertain how easy this card is to abuse. It might want to cost $2.

EDIT: Changed from costing $4 to $3. Changed last comment to reflect this change.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 10:35:15 pm by Rush_Clasic »
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Morgrim7

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 07:46:44 pm »
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Way too weak. Would only buy this with heavy trashing, if at all. Should cost $3. Maybe $2
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Octo

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 09:05:30 pm »
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So does this include any and all cards you trashed (including those from others cards?) How do you intend to keep track of that? (eg multiple Upgrades played)

Might need to be really explicit about that (if indeed that is the case) as it took me a couple readings to figure out quite what you meant.

Could you give some examples of what you think normal usage and optimum usage would be?

It could be a confusing card to play or swingy/luck-based card to play. Something a little more consistent could help quantify things a bit more, eg Coal - Treasure (cost: $x) $1. You may trash a card, if you do +$1. So it's a silver if you trash. Could make it a gold (+$2), could allow multiple trashes. Few options there, but I think keeping track of all your trashes could be risky, for example if you didn't have any coal in your hand at the beginning so weren't keeping track of the trashes, then one turned up at the end with some kind of draw you have to retrace your whole turn to figure it out. Also, what about trashes after the coal (i.e. using other coals) - how do they work? Like Bank? Or like some kind of global counter?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 09:15:52 pm »
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I like the idea.

This is somewhat nice early on for the non-action trashing, but actually stacking them to good effect seems difficult. You need a lot of drawing to have enough to trash to make them worth something. Definitely not strong enough to be worth $5, maybe not too strong to be $3. If you open with 2 of them, you do trash pretty rapidly, but can't buy anything.

If you want to make it stronger, maybe if you made it just worth $2 if you trashed at least 1 card. That makes it really strong at the start -- probably one of the strongest openings, but with a single one will fizzle out later on, since you only have so many Estates to trash, and if you trash a Copper with it, it's almost just like playing Loan. So it's a solid $4 opener for an engine, and maybe even BM. But then it can stack much more strongly, since you only need to trash a single card to make them all worth $2. While $2 doesn't sound like it should blow anyone away, the fact that massing them allowed you to trash down to just your drawing card and a handful of these makes it probably decently strong. Needs playtesting though. If the massing style of play turns out to be always better that the single one trashing into engine then it will end up being a pretty boring card.
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Ozle

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 09:38:43 pm »
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How about.
When you trash a card, put it on your trash mat.
When you play this, gain $1 for every card on your trash mat and then put the conternts of your trash mat into the trash

(Obviously needs clearing up)
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Morgrim7

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 09:41:52 pm »
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How about.
When you trash a card, put it on your trash mat.
When you play this, gain $1 for every card on your trash mat and then put the conternts of your trash mat into the trash

(Obviously needs clearing up)
That wont work. Too slow.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 10:33:51 pm »
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I tend to believe that memory issues are inflated beyond their reality. Keeping track of what you've trashed in a turn isn't actually difficult, it just sounds so when talking about it here. Memory issues definitely need to be thought about and addressed, but this doesn't feel like a case where that is a real problem.

As for ideal plays, it doesn't work all that well with single plays, which is a good case for it costing only (3). My initial thought was that chains involving trashing could make this a bit too good, but thinking through the process, it doesn't seem that way.

Powerman

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 10:38:29 pm »
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I tend to believe that memory issues are inflated beyond their reality. Keeping track of what you've trashed in a turn isn't actually difficult, it just sounds so when talking about it here. Memory issues definitely need to be thought about and addressed, but this doesn't feel like a case where that is a real problem.

It doesn't matter if it's difficult to remember or not, at all costs something to remind the player of a card is generally required.  That's why KC stays out with a duration, even why a duration stays out at all.  Why instead of just saying "Hey, I embargo gold" you actually put the token on gold.  Mining Village may be an exception (I don't have intrigue) but it's definitely worth trying to eliminate "memory" for the gameplay of a single card.
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popsofctown

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2012, 12:50:46 am »
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Throne rooming a duration card is much more of a memory stretch though, it takes until the next turn.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2012, 01:26:43 am »
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I tend to believe that memory issues are inflated beyond their reality. Keeping track of what you've trashed in a turn isn't actually difficult, it just sounds so when talking about it here. Memory issues definitely need to be thought about and addressed, but this doesn't feel like a case where that is a real problem.

It doesn't matter if it's difficult to remember or not, at all costs something to remind the player of a card is generally required.  That's why KC stays out with a duration, even why a duration stays out at all.  Why instead of just saying "Hey, I embargo gold" you actually put the token on gold.  Mining Village may be an exception (I don't have intrigue) but it's definitely worth trying to eliminate "memory" for the gameplay of a single card.

KC + duration takes a minimum of 3 turns to resolve, 1 more for each extra player.
Embrago takes the entire game after you play it to finish impacting players.
Mining Village is a good example. It take your turn and nothing more. It's a reasonable memory issue. I think my card is the same. If playtesting showed that people consistently played otherwise, I'd change it. But years of gaming makes me think it isn't that difficult, especially in a game with as little interaction as this one.

eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2012, 02:00:34 am »
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I tend to believe that memory issues are inflated beyond their reality. Keeping track of what you've trashed in a turn isn't actually difficult, it just sounds so when talking about it here. Memory issues definitely need to be thought about and addressed, but this doesn't feel like a case where that is a real problem.

It doesn't matter if it's difficult to remember or not, at all costs something to remind the player of a card is generally required.  That's why KC stays out with a duration, even why a duration stays out at all.  Why instead of just saying "Hey, I embargo gold" you actually put the token on gold.  Mining Village may be an exception (I don't have intrigue) but it's definitely worth trying to eliminate "memory" for the gameplay of a single card.

KC + duration takes a minimum of 3 turns to resolve, 1 more for each extra player.
Embrago takes the entire game after you play it to finish impacting players.
Mining Village is a good example. It take your turn and nothing more. It's a reasonable memory issue. I think my card is the same. If playtesting showed that people consistently played otherwise, I'd change it. But years of gaming makes me think it isn't that difficult, especially in a game with as little interaction as this one.

Except the KC remains in play, attached to the Duration, so you don't have to remember it.  (And I'm not sure you understand what KC-Duration does.  It doesn't extend the duration over 3 of your next turns.  It's just like playing 3 of this on this turn, so you get the next-turn effect 3 times on your next turn.  So you wait X turns, where X is the number of other players... and again, the KC remains in play with the duration, so no memory issue there.)

And Embargo has a token, so you don't have to remember that either.

I don't think the memory thing is usually an issue with this card, but there is potential for an issue if there are other trashers available.  It's probably acceptable though.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 02:02:19 am by eHalcyon »
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qmech

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2012, 04:04:38 am »
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The memory thing isn't a problem: if you're playing with this and worried about it you'd just set aside all the things you trash until the end of your turn.

(And I'm not sure you understand what KC-Duration does.  It doesn't extend the duration over 3 of your next turns.  It's just like playing 3 of this on this turn, so you get the next-turn effect 3 times on your next turn.  So you wait X turns, where X is the number of other players... and again, the KC remains in play with the duration, so no memory issue there.)
Your turn, your opponent's turn, your next turn is three, plus one more for each extra opponent.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2012, 04:19:25 am »
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The memory thing isn't a problem: if you're playing with this and worried about it you'd just set aside all the things you trash until the end of your turn.

(And I'm not sure you understand what KC-Duration does.  It doesn't extend the duration over 3 of your next turns.  It's just like playing 3 of this on this turn, so you get the next-turn effect 3 times on your next turn.  So you wait X turns, where X is the number of other players... and again, the KC remains in play with the duration, so no memory issue there.)
Your turn, your opponent's turn, your next turn is three, plus one more for each extra opponent.

I would only count the turns inbetween, but OK.  But still, there is no memory issue because the KC stays in play.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2012, 04:28:24 am »
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Except the KC remains in play, attached to the Duration, so you don't have to remember it.  (And I'm not sure you understand what KC-Duration does.  It doesn't extend the duration over 3 of your next turns.  It's just like playing 3 of this on this turn, so you get the next-turn effect 3 times on your next turn.  So you wait X turns, where X is the number of other players... and again, the KC remains in play with the duration, so no memory issue there.)

Your turn, opponent's turn, your turn is what I meant. More importantly, I'm saying that KC + Duration has a serious memory issue, thus they built a way around it. What I was pointing out is the reasons those memory issues have built-in solutions as compared to my card.

And Embargo has a token, so you don't have to remember that either.

I'm guessing you just read my post differently than I intended. Again, this is a serious memory issue, thus the work-around. My card, however, is a minor memory issue.

I don't think the memory thing is usually an issue with this card, but there is potential for an issue if there are other trashers available.  It's probably acceptable though.

At least through the confusion we come equivalent conclusions. (>.<)

zahlman

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2012, 04:41:08 am »
+1

Way too weak. Would only buy this with heavy trashing, if at all. Should cost $3. Maybe $2

$3 I'd agree with, but not $2. Compare buying a single Coal to buying a single Loan. Now it's only worth the $1 if you do trash, but you get to choose a card from hand to trash, instead of just having an option to trash your next treasure (which gets progressively worse the more often you succeed in hitting Copper and the more money you buy; and which later risks skipping over key Actions). It can get rid of your starting Estates, and while it's unlikely to combo massively, the option is at least there.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2012, 06:55:27 am »
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It is worse than FG.
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rinkworks

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2012, 08:50:06 am »
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Lots of $3 cards are worse than FG, but I'm not so sure.  Non-terminal trashing is a pretty super powerful combination, and this card produces at least one coin as well -- more if you stack them, which is likely since they slim your deck and increase the chances of collision as you play.  Eventually you use them to trash each other, finally winding up with one that hangs around like an obsolete Chapel, which isn't really a big deal at that point.

My prediction -- and it is only a prediction -- is that playtesting will show this to be a strong $4 and possibly even a $5 card.
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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2012, 09:03:17 am »
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It does seem much better than loan, which, while not a great card, is nothing to sneeze at. I like it at 4, to prevent a coal/coal opening (if coal/coal is the dominant opening on a board, it seems like the player who lucks out and draws them together is doing way better than the player who draws them separately.)
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zahlman

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2012, 11:28:27 am »
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So like... maybe we should just plug Coal/Coal into a simulator and see how it does? :/
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rinkworks

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2012, 02:40:26 pm »
+1

Loan is a lot weaker because you're not guaranteed to hit a card you want to trash.  Additionally, you can only trash Treasures.  I actually think Loan is an underrated card, but these two limitations are huge.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2012, 03:53:53 pm »
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Lots of $3 cards are worse than FG, but I'm not so sure.  Non-terminal trashing is a pretty super powerful combination, and this card produces at least one coin as well -- more if you stack them, which is likely since they slim your deck and increase the chances of collision as you play.  Eventually you use them to trash each other, finally winding up with one that hangs around like an obsolete Chapel, which isn't really a big deal at that point.

My prediction -- and it is only a prediction -- is that playtesting will show this to be a strong $4 and possibly even a $5 card.

Hunh... I started at 4, was convinced down, and now I'm being dragged back up. Hmmm...

One Armed Man

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2012, 06:31:48 pm »
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Coal (3)
Treasure
When you play this, you may trash a card from your hand. This is worth $1 per card you trashed this turn.

So... If you play a Saboteur, does that give it an addtional +$3 in multiplayer? A funny interaction that may make games with 5/2 openings of a $3 version of this awkward. This would also boost Thief, Governor, Bishop, and Noble Brigand if true.

Horn of Plenty trashing when you get a Victory card could or couldn't count, depending on whether you need Coal to get the total.
Coal makes a hand-size limited self-combo.
Remake is obvious, Trading Post is good, Chapel is good. I like this at $3.

Coal is better, but not strictly better than Loan.
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Grujah

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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2012, 06:35:44 pm »
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Coal (3)
Treasure
When you play this, you may trash a card from your hand. This is worth $1 per card you trashed this turn.

So... If you play a Saboteur, does that give it an addtional +$3 in multiplayer? A funny interaction that may make games with 5/2 openings of a $3 version of this awkward. This would also boost Thief, Governor, Bishop, and Noble Brigand if true.

Horn of Plenty trashing when you get a Victory card could or couldn't count, depending on whether you need Coal to get the total.
Coal makes a hand-size limited self-combo.
Remake is obvious, Trading Post is good, Chapel is good. I like this at $3.

Coal is better, but not strictly better than Loan.

No. Because saboteur makes your opponents trash cards, not you.
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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2012, 07:08:29 pm »
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I don't see drawing them together second shuffle being that much of an advantage.  For example:
CoCoCEE/CCCCE is $4/$4
CoCCEE/CoCCCE is $3/$4
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Re: Clasic_Cards #13 - Coal
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2012, 08:17:09 pm »
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The memory thing isn't a problem: if you're playing with this and worried about it you'd just set aside all the things you trash until the end of your turn.

The problem is that there is nothing in the rulebook that specifically allows this. You have no legal ways to keep track of all of the cards that you trashed - the card doesn't keep you honest. MV is different because you earn the coin immediately upon trashing it and thus the honesty is built in.
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