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Author Topic: How would you play this setup?  (Read 2564 times)

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kn1tt3r

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How would you play this setup?
« on: July 26, 2011, 02:53:29 am »
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Inspired by Blooki's post I remembered a setup (also with Remake) I recently played in real life, and would really like to know how you would play it.
IMO this set of cards is like a huge mess of different and all incomplete strategy fragments:


Forge
---
Adventurer
---
Ghost Ship
Merchant Ship
Mine
---
Bishop
Monument
Remake
---
Native Village
Pawn
---
+ Colony
+ Platinum
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 04:29:53 am »
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Remake/Silver. Remake Estates and Coppers asap then play big money. Not a fan of Bishop especially when there are better trashers available. Forge won't come into play until it's too late so don't bother. Buy a pawn early on with a small-money hand (Remake, Copper, Copper, Estate, Estate) for +buy later. After remaking has been done, buy 2-3 Ghost ships with $5. Remake one later into a gold if they start clashing.
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Davio

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 07:02:16 am »
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Usually other players will go for Bishop helping you trash. You can go for Remake yourself to increase your trashing speed.

Maybe use some Native Villages to make sure you can buy a Colony sometimes?

Simulating this is not easy, because of some suboptimal NV plays (drawing everything from the mat when $ reaches 8 and no Provinces need to be bought instead of waiting for 9 for Platinum).
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 07:10:38 am by Davio »
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 07:06:50 am »
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Pretty sure I can afford Colonies with a deck full of Platinums, Golds and Ghost Ships.

Edit: Let's turn this into a bit more of a discussion:

How do you plan to get a load of $2 cards when the only +buy also costs $2? How many NVs are you aiming for? How does it overcome the effect of wasting how ever many turns you are going to be wasting buying them in a Colony game when you need to have hands with a lot of money? Do you plan to make use of the extra actions, because I'm pretty sure spending time buying NVs in a Colony game with no intention of using the actions is going to be a waste of your time, money and buys.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 07:12:19 am by Thisisnotasmile »
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Geronimoo

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 07:31:05 am »
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Simulating this is not easy, because of some suboptimal NV plays (drawing everything from the mat when $ reaches 8 and no Provinces need to be bought instead of waiting for 9 for Platinum).

You probably made a mistake in your buying rules, because the simulator will only empty the Native Village mat if this will result in a buy that's higher up in your buy rules. If you want, I can edit your bot (just copy/paste it from the VXML-button).
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Davio

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 07:50:27 am »
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Okay, so NV isn't a good idea, because of the missing buys.

Was just trying to come up with something else than plain BM with trash, but sometimes it's just that.
Now I see I may have entered my buys in the wrong order, still getting used to the Simulator.

Geronimoo, how have you implemented Remake? Does it pull the trash candidates from a common trashable priority pool? Like Estate first, then Copper, etc? Does it always Remake?
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Geronimoo

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 08:21:46 am »
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Remake's implementation is quite bad, but this is how it's played:

-only play it if you have at least 2 of these: Copper, Curse, Estate
-if it's played, it goes through the hand and will give priority to Remake cards that give something in return (so probably Estates if you have Silver or any $3-cost in your buy rules)

the last part is quite buggy as I've just seen so you shouldn't really include Remake in your simulations.
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Anon79

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 08:22:14 am »
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Wow, certainly an interesting board. Would have to try it to get a sense of what works and what doesn't, but if opponent gets a Bishop I think I would definitely be going Remake + NV + Mine. Toss Coppers to his Bishops, Remake Estates into Silvers, buy a 2nd Remake, Get Golds, Mine up to Platinums (alternatively, buy Province and Remake those to Platinums), Colony run. Forge when game is winding down, convert NV+Treasure into green card.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 08:36:12 am »
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Wow, certainly an interesting board. Would have to try it to get a sense of what works and what doesn't, but if opponent gets a Bishop I think I would definitely be going Remake + NV + Mine. Toss Coppers to his Bishops, Remake Estates into Silvers, buy a 2nd Remake, Get Golds, Mine up to Platinums (alternatively, buy Province and Remake those to Platinums), Colony run. Forge when game is winding down, convert NV+Treasure into green card.

How/when are you getting NVs?
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Superdad

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2011, 09:16:48 am »
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With Remake/NV/Bishop, you could potentially play a rush-game emptying provinces *very* quickly.

For example, open Remake/Silver. Remake coppers first priority (at least the first remake to slim the deck faster), buying Bishop/NV on those turns. Buy 1 gold as soon as you can, then just work on getting the deck to Bishop/Gold/Silver/Silver/Province. Empty out provinces 1 each turn for 5 VP per turn. You can probably get the province pile emptied around turn 16-18 or so for roughly 40-50 VP. I don't think there's any way a colony player could get 4-5 colonies by this point.

I'd like to investigate this a little further. I've found that on strong trashing boards, a bishop quick-end game strategy can just completely catch the opponent off guard, because they don't expect it in a colony game. I'm a little fearful of my bishop accelerating the opponent though.

/edit, I just noticed ghost-ship on the board. Any decent player would pick up a ghost ship to completely counter this strategy.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:20:42 am by Superdad »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 10:58:59 am »
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Remake is a consideration, but BM/Monument is also a thought. I would probably think a long time and grab one remake and then head into a monumenty strategy - unless my opponent has bought a bishop before I get $4, in which case I'm just going for the BM/Monument.

HockeyHippo

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2011, 11:13:18 am »
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Original thoughts: Forge looks rather useless this game. Adventurer could be used as a late game buy. With about 4 Colonies left, to ensure another colony buy when your deck is getting cluttered with green. I see potential for a action based deck using NV for the + Actions but the lack of buy makes me think it would be inferior to Big Money

I think the real discussion is between the 4 cards. Remake and Bishop, in this situation I would say Remake gets the upper hand. In a Colony game, getting your deck thinned is more important than an early small VP lead, you could perhaps transition into it late game but early game I'd go with Remake. I don't think Monument would be a good buy here.

My strategy:

I would open Remake/Silver

I think Ghost Ship is too powerful too ignore. Get 1 or 2 Remakes eventually remaking one of them as the game goes into the late game, 1 Ghost Ship then play Big Money.
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DG

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2011, 12:10:28 pm »
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I would class this as a competitive kingdom, where your strategy will change based on your opponent's play. If the opponent uses bishops then I suspect ghost ships will become a very strong counter. If the opponent uses multiple ghost ships then native villages and even adventurers come into play. To be honest, I'd have to play this by ear and really take each hand as it comes, probably getting into a mess mid-game and hoping to remake/forge it all into something useful by the end.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 12:20:35 pm »
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What I've tried is to use heavy Remaking, i.e. start with Remake/Silver and get another Remake with my next $4 buy. Then I just built up towards some Ghost Ships, bought further Remakes with $4 and Remade colliding terminals into higher cards like Gold. In the end I had a rather thin deck and Forged surplus Ships and Remakes to Platinums, and Ships and Golds to Colonies. I also had a Bishop for a while (for like 4-5x trashing Gold and Remakes) and a Mine, but they weren't really necessary. I also had a few NVs from spare coins after Remaking something, which proved quite useful in the presence of many terminals. Moreover, I could store things aside and feed my Forge when needed.

Nevertheless, I have no idea how the game would have turned out against a really good opponent with a different strategy like Big Money or something
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Blooki

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2011, 02:53:04 pm »
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I would class this as a competitive kingdom, where your strategy will change based on your opponent's play.

This +1.

The deck will most likely be a big money deck with game-time adjustments.

I would probably ignore Forge (too hard to get a big hand & non-ideal draws with my Forge would really make me regret buying it), Adventurer, Mine, Merchant Ship and Native Village. Bishop, Monument and Remake decision will vary if I get to see my opponent's $4 or $5 first. If I'm first to act, I'd probably go with Remake with the intention to Bishop it later. Throw in a dash of Ghost Ship and hope I win.
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Blooki

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2011, 02:57:02 pm »
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I also had a few NVs from spare coins after Remaking something, which proved quite useful in the presence of many terminals. Moreover, I could store things aside and feed my Forge when needed.

I didn't think of this. This is a good point.

Overall, your plan sounds great and a nice alternative to big money. I didn't even think of it because in general I hate Native Village in the absence of a +3 or more Cards drawer (not to mention that Ghost Ships past the first played in a turn are basically Moats).
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Anon79

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Re: How would you play this setup?
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2011, 10:38:55 am »
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Wow, certainly an interesting board. Would have to try it to get a sense of what works and what doesn't, but if opponent gets a Bishop I think I would definitely be going Remake + NV + Mine. Toss Coppers to his Bishops, Remake Estates into Silvers, buy a 2nd Remake, Get Golds, Mine up to Platinums (alternatively, buy Province and Remake those to Platinums), Colony run. Forge when game is winding down, convert NV+Treasure into green card.
How/when are you getting NVs?

I also had a few NVs from spare coins after Remaking something, which proved quite useful in the presence of many terminals.
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