Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Flopfoot]

Bought this yesterday and we had a couple questions come up.

1) The game rules don't mention an "in play" zone so we assumed that as soon as you play something it must go into your discards?
For example if I play a Smithy, but I only have two cards left in my deck, will the Smithy I just played get shuffled into my new deck?

2) Can you Throne Room a Feast (so only trash the Feast once, but get two cards costing up to 5)?

[rrenaud]

Cards in play are put face up in front of you.  Cards in play are neither in your deck, nor in your discard.  They do not get shuffled back into your deck (this prevents you from getting a perpetual turn with a few cards like festival and smithy).

The throne room + feast combo indeed nets you two cards up to $5 and I think it's mentioned somewhere in the rulebook.

[Davio]

The game rulebook shows a setup with Regular cards, Kingdom cards and a Play Area, there's an image somewhere.
Just make sure that every card you play is clear to you and your opponents, this goes for Treasure cards as well.
Since Treasure cards can be hard to distinguish from each other (a big design flaw in my book, why not make the Silvers a Silvery color?), you have to spread them so it's easy to see how many $$$ you can spend. The little numbers in the top left and right corner are not enough, especially with visually challenged people (your (grand)parents maybe ).

Feast's text says "Trash this card. Gain a card costing up to 5 Coins."

This means you can Throne Room it and gain 2 cards. Remember that you always have to do as much as you can from what the card says. You try trashing it, but the card is already trashed. No biggie, continue with the next line and gain another card.

Some cards have different text, like Mining Village: "+1 Card, +2 Actions. You may trash this card immediately. If you do, +2 Coins."
Since you can only effectively trash it once, you can only get the +2 Coins once, but you get the +1 Card and +2 Actions twice when you Throne Room it.

[gnubg]

Similar to the Feast question, what about if you have a Throne Room and 2 treasure maps? How about a Throne Room and 3 Treasure Maps?

[guided]

Similar to the Feast question, what about if you have a Throne Room and 2 treasure maps? How about a Throne Room and 3 Treasure Maps?

Throne Room tells you to reveal one of the Treasure Maps from your hand and play it twice. Each time you play it, you do exactly what it says, following the instructions from beginning to end. If you can't do something the Treasure Map tells you to do, don't do that thing. If you can only do part of something, do as much as you can.

[gnubg]

Yes, that makes sense following from the Feast example, but there seems to be (at least in my playgroup) a bit of debate about how much you can do. For example, I can't trash "this and another copy" the second time round, so you could argue that you can't do that part at all (and hence two in hand is sufficient), but I CAN trash "another copy" (and so you need three in hand). After that, the "If you do trash two Treasure Maps, (...)" is also argued in my playgroup, with some people thinking that you haven't trashed two the second time, so you don't get the benefit.

It might be more helpful for me if you just told me what happens if I play a Throne Room with a Treasure Map with 1/2 more in my hand.

[AJD]

...To clarify, what that means in the case of Treasure Map is the following: You Throne Room one Treasure Map, thereby playing it twice. The first time it gets played, you trash it, you trash a second Treasure Map from your hand, and gain four gold. The second time, it's already in the trash, but you trash yet another Treasure Map from your hand if you have one, but you don't get any more gold. This is because in order for Treasure Map to get you gold, you have to trash two copies of it when you play it—and the second time you play the first Treasure Map (via the Throne Room), it's already in the trash, so only one Treasure Map actually gets trashed on that iteration.

[gnubg]

That's clear - thanks!

[Davio]

Watch out for cards that say "if you do", these cards have a certain requirement you need to fulfill. Some of the requirements can only be met once.

These cards include:
- Treasure Map
- Tournament, you must discard the Province after gaining a prize, but you could have more Provinces in your hand and win more prizes
- Moneylender, you only get the +3$ if you trash a Copper
- Baron, discarding like Tournament
- Mining Village, a tricky one, since you can only trash it once and get the +2$ once, even when TR'd or KC'd (you do get the cards and actions multiple times)
- Tactician, you can only discard your hand once

[WanderingWinder]

Actually, you can discard your hand as many times as you want. It's just that the second time, it's likely to be empty, so it won't have the 1 other card you need to make it 'go off'

[guided]

It might be more helpful for me if you just told me what happens if I play a Throne Room with a Treasure Map with 1/2 more in my hand.

I did tell you what happens. It's unambiguous from the general principles I mentioned that apply to all Dominion cards. You will find you have questions about seemingly complex card interactions over and over again until you learn to just do what the card says (or as much as you can if you can't do some of it), even if it seems weird to you.

-When you say "you could argue that you can't do that part at all", well, what did I say? If you can only do part of something, do as much as you can. You can do part of the thing (trashing a Treasure Map from the hand), so... you know, do that.
-When you say your group is confused because only "some [people] think that you haven't trashed two the second time", what madness leads the other people to think that 1 = 2? The second time, you have not trashed the played Treasure Map, end of story.
-If there is dispute in your group about the way a card works, and someone insists on an interpretation contrary to what the card actually says, it's probably best to consult the rulebook. And the case of Throne Room/Treasure Map with an third Treasure Map in hand is specifically explained in the Seaside rulebook.


I'm happy to patiently explain genuinely difficult rulings involving very subtle points - things like what happens if you play TR/Mining Village on a Possession turn, or what you are or aren't allowed to do when you play Quarry/Talisman/Royal Seal and buy a Mint, or what happens when you play Duration cards on KC chains - but this question and legions of others like it come down to just doing what the card says, or failing that reading the card FAQ in the rulebook.

[WanderingWinder]

While you did sorta answer his question, it's coming off as you being a bit harsh, as the wording of the cards is slightly ambiguous. Yeah, it's in the rulebook, but obviously he didn't think of that or doesn't have  copy, or he wouldn't be asking here. Now, you could have just told him to read the rulebook and that would have come off as being less offensive than what you actually said, which implied that he was a moron or something, but that would be sorta rude.

[guided]

I won't apologize for trying to teach someone to fish.

FWIW, I didn't remember this case was covered in the rulebook (which is available, for free, on the RGG site) until later.

[WanderingWinder]

I think your first post was more or less fine, though I can see that it could be frustrating from his point of view, because telling him to "do exactly what it says" without also providing a concrete example, since it's a concrete question especially, probably didn't really tell him something he didn't already know.
But it was your second post that came off as being really snotty. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you didn't intend it that way, but it does come off that way, at least to me.

[guided]

But it was your second post that came off as being really snotty.

Maybe you missed this horking wad of snot I was responding to? - "It might be more helpful for me if you just told me..." - absent which I'd have felt no compulsion to respond given the question had subsequently been resolved. But perhaps, as Dr. King said, returning snot for snot only multiplies snot, adding deeper phlegminess to a t-shirt already soaked in goo?

If you would like to have an extended debate about forum courtesy and exactly what is or isn't warranted in terms of proportional response in an internet discussion, let's take it to PM or some other new thread dedicated to that purpose. Alternately, I refer you to the "Report to moderator" link in the corner of each post.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Just lost a whole load of respect for guided. Replies in this thread are shocking.

[DsnowMan]

The FAQ for Treasure Map tells you what to do if you have 3 copies of TM and you play a Throne Room. It's what AJD said, trash 'em all, only gain gold once (x4).

[HockeyHippo]

I can't believe someone hasn't just spelled this out for him, probably would have been a lot easier. Throne Rooming something just makes you play a card twice.

So TR(Throne Room)-> TM(Treasure Map)

You play TM twice:
First time: You trash the TM and another TM from your hand, if you have one. Gaining 4 Gold on the top of your deck because you trashed both the TM in play and the one from your hand.
Second: You play the TM a second time but since it is already trashed you cannot trash it again, you could trash another TM from your hand if you wish but it will not get you any gold since you did not trash the original TM (because it was already trashed from the first time you played it).

Same thing happens with King's Court. Just to further drill it in, I'll show you King's Court(KC)-> Feast.

KC-> Feast

First time: Trash Feast, gain a card costing up to $5.
Second time: Trash Feast(can't), gain a card costing up to $5.
Third time: Trash Feast(can't), gain a card costing up to $5.

So in this case you trash one copy of Feast and you gain 3 cards up to $5 each.

The difference is in the wording. TM only allows you to gain the 4xGold if you have both trashed the TM in play and one from your hand. While Feast tells you to trash this card and gain a card. There is no requirement about gaining the card and trashing the original Feast, allowing you to gain 3 cards.

The rule of thumb for Dominion Rules is to do everything top to bottom, and do as much as you can. For example, if you were to play a Village but did not have a deck to draw from it does not prevent you from getting the +2 actions from the Village.

Only lack of actions can prevent you from playing an action card.

[guided]

I can't believe someone hasn't just spelled this out for him

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=365.msg6798#msg6798

Also, the rulebook spells it out. Your explanation isn't quite right: the second time you play the Treasure Map you must trash another Treasure Map from your hand if you have one.

[Superdad]

I have to second (or third?) this:  Just tell the guy what it does next time.

Replying back with something along the lines of "figure it out yourself" is not helping anyone.

Games like this live and die based on the playerbase, and alienating someone by acting like an elitist jerk is not appropriate whatsoever. I've found guided to be an MVP on these forums, for various reasons - his posts are always value-added. But this thread's responses are just out of line (my opinion).

It's a lot different saying: Here's what it does. Here's why.

Than saying: Here's a clue, now go figure it out yourself.

The former comes across as being enlightening and inclusive. The latter comes across as dismissive and exclusive (kind of a "shoo gnat" - especially when the answer, even given the "clue" is still potentially elusive).

At least that's how I interpreted it.

The actual specific answers in this thread are correct. I'm only posting this to hopefully aid all of us to responding in a positive way to these kind of questions in the future. Growing the community is more important than teaching someone to fish. They'll learn to fish if they like fishing. if you make them hate fishing, they'll just bugger-off.

[guided]

Replying back with something along the lines of "figure it out yourself" is not helping anyone.

But it was not along those lines; it was "Here is the manner by which you may figure it out yourself." This is more helpful in the long run than just giving someone a mechanical answer about these specific cards that gives them no insight into the "Why?" of the ruling. I will grant that it would have been still more helpful to include the practical consequences of those general principles. And do you know what? In retrospect I really wish I'd done that. But I don't think I was deserving of the sassy response I got (tantamount to "Yeah right, gramps, shut up about your general principles and just tell me how this case works"), and nor do I think it's productive for 10 different people to insist on making this a thread about their opinions on my behavior.

[WanderingWinder]

Replying back with something along the lines of "figure it out yourself" is not helping anyone.

But it was not along those lines; it was "Here is the manner by which you may figure it out yourself." This is more helpful in the long run than just giving someone a mechanical answer about these specific cards that gives them no insight into the "Why?" of the ruling. I will grant that it would have been still more helpful to include the practical consequences of those general principles. And do you know what? In retrospect I really wish I'd done that. But I don't think I was deserving of the sassy response I got (tantamount to "Yeah right, gramps, shut up about your general principles and just tell me how this case works"), and nor do I think it's productive for 10 different people to insist on making this a thread about their opinions on my behavior.

Since I don't agree with this entirely subjective assessment of yours, I guess I'm not interested in being lectured about it.

[DG]

Just forget it. People always give answers in their own ways that might please or not please other people. The more interesting you try to make something the more that people might take offence. So what?

[theory]

Yeah, let's put this behind us.