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Author Topic: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread  (Read 30456 times)

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Kirian

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IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« on: July 25, 2012, 09:44:06 pm »
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Time for Round 5!  All of the pairings are now up at:

http://isodom.challonge.com/

Bracket A people:  I gave O the benefit of the doubt, given his notification in the Mafia threads of a computer blowout.  He received a loss rather than a dropout.

Final round of the Swiss portion, which will determine seeding for the elimination portion.  Good luck!

Results are due by 1000 EDT on Monday 06 August 2012.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2012, 10:30:12 pm »
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I withdraw/forfeit.  8 people in bracket B have 3 wins, yes?  No point in arranging a game.  Greatexpectations can have the win.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 11:53:29 pm »
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I withdraw/forfeit.  8 people in bracket B have 3 wins, yes?  No point in arranging a game.  Greatexpectations can have the win.

Very well.  A quick note:  players who are mathematically eliminated, and who withdraw with notice, will be eligible for the next IsoDom.  I don't want anyone to feel like they must play this last round if they can't make the top eight and don't wish to finish the round.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 02:51:28 am »
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I withdraw/forfeit.  8 people in bracket B have 3 wins, yes?  No point in arranging a game.  Greatexpectations can have the win.

Very well.  A quick note:  players who are mathematically eliminated, and who withdraw with notice, will be eligible for the next IsoDom.  I don't want anyone to feel like they must play this last round if they can't make the top eight and don't wish to finish the round.

Does that create an unfair situation for people who aren't matched up against forfeiting people?  Or does the swiss-style bracket deal with that?  (That is, if there's a "mathematically eliminated" person matched up against someone who still has a chance, if the eliminated person forfeits, is that unfair for other people?)
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 02:55:06 am »
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The people who didn't want to play the last round should pretty clearly have dropped out before pairings for round 5 (I guess that's what "with notice" means). Getting paired and then not bothering is kinda lame, and hurts the person (/people) who wants to play but doesn't get to because of a forced bye. It's definitely possible someone could get a bye into the top8 too chris, some 2-2 guy getting paired down against a 1-3 guy who decides to not bother playing, or something. No idea if that's actually happening in these cases, but it's certainly plausible.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 07:51:32 am »
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The people who didn't want to play the last round should pretty clearly have dropped out before pairings for round 5 (I guess that's what "with notice" means). Getting paired and then not bothering is kinda lame, and hurts the person (/people) who wants to play but doesn't get to because of a forced bye. It's definitely possible someone could get a bye into the top8 too chris, some 2-2 guy getting paired down against a 1-3 guy who decides to not bother playing, or something. No idea if that's actually happening in these cases, but it's certainly plausible.

I should clarify: If greatexpectations would prefer to play me he can, but given the need to schedule a time and all that for an ultimately pointless game on one player's end, I don't see the purpose--effectively all I can do is prevent HIM from having a hope for the top 8, which doesn't appeal to me.  Yes, I should have dropped before Round 5, but I did not realize I was mathematically eliminated until the full bracket was in.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 08:06:54 am »
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I should clarify: If greatexpectations would prefer to play me he can, but given the need to schedule a time and all that for an ultimately pointless game on one player's end, I don't see the purpose--effectively all I can do is prevent HIM from having a hope for the top 8, which doesn't appeal to me.

But if you *don't* play, aren't you're giving him an advantage in making the top 8 over the other 2-2 people?

I don't think you should look at it as "all I can do is hurt greatexpectations" since the assumption of the tournament is that you will play.  It's not like you're choosing to play in order to prevent him from advancing.

EDIT: I don't even think it's true that you can only hurt him, since I believe 3-2 is better than 2-2 + a bye.  But I may be wrong about that.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 08:11:16 am by yudantaiteki »
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 08:35:22 am »
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What is the policy on draws?
Potentially intentional.
(For example in Magic it is allowed to agree to a draw, due to the difficulty of enforcing optimal play and time limits)

In the A bracket if all 8 players on 3-1 were to draw they would all make Top 8 for example.

This is complicated by the games being played at different times.
In theory you could wait to play your game to have more information about the other results.

I would propose a rules change (I know its a bit late) Play first to 3 wins, instead of best for 5.
Those stopping draws from being possible.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 08:38:46 am »
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Well I mean, I'll leave it up to him.  I work at home so my schedule's wide open.  Winning accomplishes nothing for me, though (and given how badly I've been playing the past few months I don't expect to anyway).  Like Fabian says, I should have resigned earlier, but I always hold off until I know where I actually stand.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 08:57:53 am »
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Hrm.

Interestingly, this only applies to Bracket B.  In Bracket A, anyone who's already eliminated is scheduled to play someone else who is also eliminated.  In Bracket C, anyone mathematically eliminated has already dropped out.

Now, in Bracket B, the pairing algorithm has done something weird.  Neither greatexpectations nor zxcvbn are mathematically eliminated; however, each has been paired with someone who is.  If no one in Bracket B has a problem with this, I'll ask greatexpectations to square off with zxcvbn, which means I'll end up doing tie-breaker calculations manually.

greatexpectations, zxcvbn, you guys OK with that?  Anyone else in Bracket B have objections?
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 09:14:59 am »
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What is the policy on draws?
Potentially intentional.
(For example in Magic it is allowed to agree to a draw, due to the difficulty of enforcing optimal play and time limits)

In the A bracket if all 8 players on 3-1 were to draw they would all make Top 8 for example.

Also an interesting point, though not quite true, as JFrisch could get to 4 points, bumping someone out (I'm unsure who because the tie-break mechanism is complex, but I'm sure someone who wants to run the numbers could figure it out).  That person is going to try for a win, forcing his opponent to play for a win, making a bunch of handshake ties less than ideal for some players.

I'm loath to change the rules at this point.  But given that (1) it won't work in this particular case, (2) there have so far been no ties in Bracket A, (3) colluding to produce a tie is going to be rather difficult and could be somewhat obvious, and (4) frankly, I trust high-level players not to dick around with the system like that, I don't think there's reason to change things.

However, I will modify a tiny bit:  "handshake" ties are disallowed for this round.
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greatexpectations

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 09:41:26 am »
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i am totally fine with facing (or not facing) anyone. i'll go with whatever you guys say is best.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 09:52:46 am »
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What is the policy on draws?
Potentially intentional.
(For example in Magic it is allowed to agree to a draw, due to the difficulty of enforcing optimal play and time limits)

In the A bracket if all 8 players on 3-1 were to draw they would all make Top 8 for example.

Also an interesting point, though not quite true, as JFrisch could get to 4 points, bumping someone out (I'm unsure who because the tie-break mechanism is complex, but I'm sure someone who wants to run the numbers could figure it out).  That person is going to try for a win, forcing his opponent to play for a win, making a bunch of handshake ties less than ideal for some players.

I'm loath to change the rules at this point.  But given that (1) it won't work in this particular case, (2) there have so far been no ties in Bracket A, (3) colluding to produce a tie is going to be rather difficult and could be somewhat obvious, and (4) frankly, I trust high-level players not to dick around with the system like that, I don't think there's reason to change things.

However, I will modify a tiny bit:  "handshake" ties are disallowed for this round.

Oops, missed that I was looking at wins not points.
This is where playing late in the week helps.
Wait for for any other pair to play.
Now only 8 players can get to 3.5 point and you can happily draw.
 
Stopping "handshake" ties is a good solution.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 11:13:16 am »
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Now, in Bracket B, the pairing algorithm has done something weird.  Neither greatexpectations nor zxcvbn are mathematically eliminated; however, each has been paired with someone who is.  If no one in Bracket B has a problem with this, I'll ask greatexpectations to square off with zxcvbn, which means I'll end up doing tie-breaker calculations manually.

greatexpectations, zxcvbn, you guys OK with that?  Anyone else in Bracket B have objections?
No, objections, although zxcvbn2 needs his previous opponents to do well to really still be in. Having a bye really doesn't help you when it comes down to the tiebreaker.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 12:47:22 pm »
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What is the policy on draws?
Potentially intentional.
(For example in Magic it is allowed to agree to a draw, due to the difficulty of enforcing optimal play and time limits)

In the A bracket if all 8 players on 3-1 were to draw they would all make Top 8 for example.

Also an interesting point, though not quite true, as JFrisch could get to 4 points, bumping someone out (I'm unsure who because the tie-break mechanism is complex, but I'm sure someone who wants to run the numbers could figure it out).  That person is going to try for a win, forcing his opponent to play for a win, making a bunch of handshake ties less than ideal for some players.

I'm loath to change the rules at this point.  But given that (1) it won't work in this particular case, (2) there have so far been no ties in Bracket A, (3) colluding to produce a tie is going to be rather difficult and could be somewhat obvious, and (4) frankly, I trust high-level players not to dick around with the system like that, I don't think there's reason to change things.

However, I will modify a tiny bit:  "handshake" ties are disallowed for this round.

Oops, missed that I was looking at wins not points.
This is where playing late in the week helps.
Wait for for any other pair to play.
Now only 8 players can get to 3.5 point and you can happily draw.
 
Stopping "handshake" ties is a good solution.
Round 5 results still affect seeding though, right? So agreeing to draw would mean giving up a chance at being highly-seeded. Granted, having a high seed is maybe not worth much in such a strong group.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 01:41:17 pm »
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Now, in Bracket B, the pairing algorithm has done something weird.  Neither greatexpectations nor zxcvbn are mathematically eliminated; however, each has been paired with someone who is.  If no one in Bracket B has a problem with this, I'll ask greatexpectations to square off with zxcvbn, which means I'll end up doing tie-breaker calculations manually.

greatexpectations, zxcvbn, you guys OK with that?  Anyone else in Bracket B have objections?
No, objections, although zxcvbn2 needs his previous opponents to do well to really still be in. Having a bye really doesn't help you when it comes down to the tiebreaker.

Yeah.  I may have to create a different tie-breaker system to handle all the dropouts and byes, though I wouldn't feel comfortable implementing them in the middle of the tournament.  I guess the modified-median should help take care of it, but someone who played against two dropouts early on might have their tiebreaker screwed up by that.

I've been trying to find more information on what other people do for a Swiss tiebreaker with dropouts, but Googling "Swiss tiebreaker with dropouts" actually gets me two threads in this sub-forum on the first page.  So... yeah.
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2012, 01:47:00 pm »
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Kirian,

Take player A. Look at his 5 opponents, players B-F. None of players B-F have dropped. Figure out the combined record of players B-F, let's say it's 18-12, or 60%.

Take player B. Look at his 5 opponents, player A and players D-G. Player G dropped before round 5. Figure out the combined record of player A and players D-G, let's say it's 18-11, or 62.07%

Player B moves on, player A is sad.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2012, 02:07:16 pm »
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Kirian,

Take player A. Look at his 5 opponents, players B-F. None of players B-F have dropped. Figure out the combined record of players B-F, let's say it's 18-12, or 60%.

Take player B. Look at his 5 opponents, player A and players D-G. Player G dropped before round 5. Figure out the combined record of player A and players D-G, let's say it's 18-11, or 62.07%

Player B moves on, player A is sad.

Hmm.  That would also average byes out, which is again a help.  I like it.

Another way to do this would be to give "Bye" a "ranking" of 0.  Because the Median-Buchholz system drops the top and bottom scores, it would drop the 0, but allow the player with a bye to still have the same number of matches count for tie-breaking.  Since no one will have more than one bye, that would work reasonably well.
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2012, 02:16:22 pm »
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That sounds like a different system that I've never heard of and probably doesn't exist. I mean, you do what you want because it's your tournament, but, like, this is how to do it.

And yeah I think I remember commenting on that "drop the best and worst score" thing in one of the tournament structure discussions, and how silly it is. Still feel that way, especially for such a short tournament (three opponents determine your tie-breakers?)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 02:18:29 pm by Fabian »
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2012, 03:24:35 pm »
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Hmm.  From FIDE, regarding byes and forfeits:

"For tie-break purposes all unplayed games in which players are indirectly involved (results by forfeit of opponents) are considered to have been drawn.

For tie-break purposes a player who has no opponent will be considered as having played against a virtual opponent who has the same number of points at the beginning of the round and who draws in all the following rounds. For the round itself the result by forfeit will be considered as a normal result."

As for the other concern, in tournaments with N <= 5, dropping the upper and lower scores is pretty common.  In fact, with N <= 9, usually the top two and bottom two scores are dropped.  Basically, this is designed to prevent a middle-of-the-road player from getting a huge tiebreak score because they were lucky enough in the first round to go up against the only person who went 5-0, for instance--or, unlucky enough to go up against a dropout who never won.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2012, 03:46:18 pm »
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First sentence, there is no unplayed game against an opponent who forfeits when it comes to a bye. There is a bye. I guess it could apply to the guy who was paired and then said he didn't feel like playing though? In Magic that would be considered just losing the game, but it doesn't really ever happen there as people typically drop out before the round starts, or they play.

The second sentence, I guess I stand corrected/I'm flabbergasted/I'm dumbfounded.

The third paragraph, that's exactly what's stupid about that system; it's designed to remove the thing which a tie-breaker system checks for. Playing against a 5-0 player isn't "lucky" or "unlucky" in the context of tie-breakers. It's being rewarded for having played strong opposition over players who haven't played strong opposition, by getting tie-breakers that are stronger than those other players who didn't play stronger opposition.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 04:13:09 pm »
+1

Basically, this is designed to prevent a middle-of-the-road player from getting a huge tiebreak score because they were lucky enough in the first round to go up against the only person who went 5-0, for instance--or, unlucky enough to go up against a dropout who never won.
One could argue that going up against someone who went 5-0 could be considered unlucky...
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2012, 12:40:30 pm »
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blueblimp defeats yuma 3-1-1

Game 1: blueblimp 11 - yuma 5
Game 2: yuma 24 - blueblimp 54
Game 3: yuma 36 - blueblimp 36
Game 4: blueblimp -100 - yuma 41
Game 5: blueblimp 31 - yuma 29

Thanks yuma for the interesting games. Lots of interesting kingdoms here.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2012, 12:58:30 pm »
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Thoughts:

Game 1: I don't know whether Remodel/Grand Market is actually much good in Province games, but anyway there's no good BM option, so I go for it, and so does yuma. A combination of Cellars, Villages, and Watchtowers later on allows for a surprisingly good engine, and I'm able to end it on piles. I'd love to see what a strong engine player would do with this kingdom.

Game 2: Tactician/Black Market... and Coppersmith. (Crossroads helps a lot too here.) To give an idea of how crazy Coppersmith was here: on my second-last turn, I have $31 to spend on a turn where I play a Tactician. I thought I was dead when yuma got Goons out of the Black Market, but the game wasn't long enough for the VP tokens to dominate. The Haggler I pulled helped a lot.

Game 3: Ghost Ship and Duke seem key here. I move to Duchies sooner than yuma, winning the split 5-3, but then he gets a 6-2 split on the Dukes. He tries to run out the Estate pile before I can pull ahead, but a good turn 23 (aided by his Ghost Ship play the previous turn) gets me a Province, and I'm able to tie it. In hindsight, maybe it's worth skipping Ghost Ship entirely: a single Ghost Ship play almost seems to help when aiming for $5.

(At this point, I'm guaranteed at minimum a tie in the series.)

Game 4: I think Tactician/Mountebank will wreck any sort of engine, but yuma puts together something reasonable with Highway/Crossroads/Tactician/Haggler (and Mountebank too, of course). I resign once it becomes mathematically impossible to win.

Game 5: A Festival/Envoy engine enabled by Chapel. We both make the dumb move of getting a Pirate Ship, and neither of us get more than a single token on it. My thought was that, since he opened Envoy/Chapel, I might be able to prevent him from hitting $5 for a Festival, but it failed. Anyway, maybe because I'm first player, I manage to get a 6-4 split on the Festivals. My engine is consequently stronger, so I'm able to win.

Few more misc. thoughts on game 5: an engine is clearly the right play here, because BM+Envoy will get wrecked by a Pirate Ship engine. I make a dumb play on turn 14 when I trash my Silver because I'm scared of Pirate Ship; even if he hits it, his Ship would only be a terminal Silver. When playing an Envoy engine, I like to play as few cards as possible before each Envoy, so that my opponent doesn't know how many actions I'll have when picking a card to discard. yuma didn't do this hiding technique, but it didn't matter much.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 01:03:44 pm by blueblimp »
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2012, 04:24:38 pm »
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@blueblimp: Game 3 had Ventures. I understand $5 is a popular price-point here, but those seem good, especially when greening hard and especially when Ghost Ship is on the board. Being so clogged is usually horrible, but if you have a Venture in hand, just throw those Dukes and Duchies on top and watch them get skipped because of the Venture hunting. I think the simulators might be able to tell us if Ventures are a worthwhile investment here.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2012, 05:31:00 pm »
+1

qmech 2 - DG 3

qmech 62 - DG 57
Mountebank, but Trader.  Fairgrounds will be useful later on.  My 5/2 Mountebank misses DG's 4/3 Trader on the first reshuffle and that might have been all it came down to.

DG 43 - qmech 32
Lots of nice toys, but also Fishing Village/Jack.  I throw away a draw by not taking advantage of DG's passing up an Estate for a Library on his penultimate turn, assuming I needed more than one extra Estate to win (which was true, but not useful).

qmech 23 - DG 26
Ironworks/Conspirator/Inn.  I grab an early Council Room and Embargo them.  I get some use out of the +Buy, getting 6 of the Conspirators and buying multiple VP a turn, but it doesn't help and a close game goes to DG.

DG 43 - qmech 57
Chapel and King's Court with Colonies.  DG doesn't spot the +Buy until I buy a Margrave and grabs early Colonies.  I have a lot of Treasure which makes DG's KC'ed Tributes an effective source of money, but my bigger engine leaps ahead on the final turn.

DG 27 - qmech 1
This looks like so much fun, with Ambassador, University with a great selection of 5's including Upgrade in the presence of Grand Market, and Black Market with Tournament, Torturer and Goons amongst other goodies.  After we both open Ambassador/Potion my next four draws are
Quote
2 Coppers and 3 Estates
4 Coppers and an Ambassador
2 Coppers, 2 Ambassadors, and a Potion
2 Coppers and 3 Estates
Sigh.
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blueblimp

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2012, 05:33:58 pm »
0

@blueblimp: Game 3 had Ventures. I understand $5 is a popular price-point here, but those seem good, especially when greening hard and especially when Ghost Ship is on the board. Being so clogged is usually horrible, but if you have a Venture in hand, just throw those Dukes and Duchies on top and watch them get skipped because of the Venture hunting. I think the simulators might be able to tell us if Ventures are a worthwhile investment here.

Interesting, although it's hard to analyze.

Although Venture can mitigate being Ghost Shipped, the best it can do is skip over green and dead actions if they were put back. A Ghost Ship play would do that too, but instead of giving +$, it would attack. Hard to say which is better in general. In this game, I first played my Ghost Ship on turn 7, and Venture would've put me at $4 instead of $3--that doesn't help much, but then again the GS attack that turn probably helped yuma (since he only wanted $5 and had $7 in hand). I play GS for the second time on turn 12--Venture would have put me at $9, but at that point we're still fighting over Duchies--on the other hand, the GS attack wasn't damaging. When I play GS on turn 18, the GS attack helps yuma, and Venture would have got me a Duke that GS didn't, so Venture would have been better there.
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Young Nick

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2012, 07:20:31 pm »
0

Also note that Venture can skip over even more cards than you might think. Whether it's a good thing or not is unclear, but, yeah, it's not like the game would have been the exact same if you Ventured.
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-Stef-

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2012, 05:29:58 am »
+1

Game 1: blueblimp 11 - yuma 5

Thoughts:

Game 1: I don't know whether Remodel/Grand Market is actually much good in Province games, but anyway there's no good BM option, so I go for it, and so does yuma. A combination of Cellars, Villages, and Watchtowers later on allows for a surprisingly good engine, and I'm able to end it on piles. I'd love to see what a strong engine player would do with this kingdom.

Grand market is definately the way to go. But the focus during the start should be not so much on getting the goodies, but getting rid of the coppers & estates. Remodelling a copper is quite bad, just getting rid of it is much stronger. Cellar isn't that good when you don't play with huge hands.

So Loan and Lookout are both very good here. Watchtower is also strong, because lookout & remodel both reduce your hand.
Engines almost always require draw. Just look at what happends to your deck once you buy the watchtowers (t12)

The start is still quite complex, and I don't really have an answer for that. Maybe loan/remodel, but lookout/watchtower also feels strong.
By the time I got 7 cards in, I'd like them to be 2 villages, 2 watchtowers, a remodel, a lookout and a loan.

Starting 5/2 is bad here, and I agree on your remodel/cellar. Drawing 'cellar cccc' on t3 is horrible, but to cellar all 4 is asking for more trouble. I would cellar 1, hoping to draw an estate and get a loan, lookout & watchtower before the reshuffle. If not, I'd settle for loan and lookout.
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Wizard of Woz

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 08:19:46 am »
0

Wizard of Woz 3 - Chriskern 1

Game 1
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120729-181345-43d53969.html

Woz 31 - 19 Chriskern

With Minion on the board, I see Embassy and think that I will try Embassy BM and see if I can just run with it.  It worked.  I think Chriskern gave up on him Minion start after I got going with Embassy, by then it was too late to switch and I coast to Victory.

Game 2
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120729-182025-9e767843.html

Chriskern 36 - 35 Woz

After Embssy dominating the first game, it shows up again here.  I pretty much decide to go the same route, BM Embassy, while Chriskern decides to do Embassy with a little support from Markets.  I could never get my Salvager to collide with anything meaningful toward the end of the game, and had it collide with one too many Estates.  I break the PPR, we dance for a bit, and Chriskern picks up the winner. 

Game 3
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120729-182731-1439f3d9.html

Woz 39 - 35 Chriskern

As we look at the third board, what card is there?  Yup, Embassy again.  Weird.  The big difference here is that there are tournaments on board.  I push tournaments a little harder.  We both grab a Province on turn 7, but I get mine to collide first.  From there, again Embassy with money and support from Tournaments and a Trusty Steed.  I jjust got the first prize, and sometimes that's enough.

Game 4
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120729-183645-0cba31d7.html

Woz 33 - 23 Chriskern

Well, no Embassy this time, but I see his BM enabling brother, Vault on the board.  I am already thinking about money games so Vault seemed like a ready made strategy.  Chriskern started out with a Spice Merchant.  I grabbed one too because I thought "Hey two coins plus trashing a copper".  After I bought it I though "Hey, its really only +1 coin because I have to get rid of a copper, so it won't help me get Vaults as fast as a silver would have."  Even still, I stay on the Vault BM path while Chriskern goes with some schemes and throne rooms.  He had the support, but no big cards to use them with.  Black Market was on the board but he really didn't get a chance at it. 

Chriskern was a great opponent, and I have to apologize for not being very talkative.  Was trying to get dinner in at the same time, and was unable to type a whole lot. 

I would appreciate if someone would look at these three Embassy games and give thoughts on how to approach this card with 3 different kingdoms.
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DG

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2012, 08:54:15 am »
0

For those 3 embassy games -
#1 - There are lots of options, good kingdom actually, so you'd need to tailor your play against your opponent's strategy.
#2 - I don't think salvager helps the embassy here. Something simple with smithy+royal seal seems fine.
#3 - Either take labs or festivals+embassies, but not labs+embassy.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2012, 09:42:15 am »
0


Chriskern was a great opponent, and I have to apologize for not being very talkative.  Was trying to get dinner in at the same time, and was unable to type a whole lot. 


No problem, thanks for playing and posting the writeups.  I wish I had played better, particularly the 4th game where I never really had a good strategy.  I bought the last province for the loss; I don't think that even buying duchies would have enabled me to catch up -- I just didn't have anything to work with.  Throne rooming Council Room was the only thing giving me any steam but of course that benefited you too.
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Jorbles

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2012, 12:41:07 pm »
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Young Nick beat me 3-2 yesterday. He'll be posting the logs today. I look forward to seeing them as there were some really interesting boards involved.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2012, 02:08:27 pm »
0

HiveMindEmulator 3 : 1 Rabid

HME 48 : 34 Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/31/game-20120731-100935-61d07404.html
HME 64 : 48 Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/31/game-20120731-101955-5cbeb2bc.html
HME 19 : 76 Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/31/game-20120731-104331-fdf05d88.html
HME 32 : 29 Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/31/game-20120731-105005-c84de4be.html

Game 1 was Thief/Fool's Gold. I got a little luckier and won.

Game 2 was a Sea Hag Colony game. He went 2 Hags, and I went 1 + Fortune Teller. I got my Trading Post really late, but I hit a lot of 6s and ended up with a better Gold economy to grab Provinces.

Game 3 was KC/Possession/Scheme. He got it going it going faster with better Potion timing and hitting the first $7 and demolished me.

Game 4 I played Oracle BM vs Trading Post/Lab. He broke the PPR, which is a tough call. I guess he figured the Oracles would handle a bunch of Duchies better than the Labs.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 02:11:58 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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Rabid

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2012, 02:37:58 pm »
+1

Thanks for the games.

Game 1: I can't remember ever winning a game with thief.

Game 2: Even with 2 hags, I only managed a 5/5 curse split.
In hind sight on T17, I should have played Trading post, instead of hag.
Rabid draws: 2 Sea Hags, a Trading Post, and 2 Silvers

Game 3: Crazy board, could have been some cool interaction with scheme vs possession if it was close. But my early draws were better.

Game 4: Your plan was better I think, I need to stop avoiding mirrors in matches.
Not sure about PPR here, you had already played a lot of money that shuffle, so it seems OK.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2012, 02:48:17 pm »
0

Game 2: Even with 2 hags, I only managed a 5/5 curse split.
In hind sight on T17, I should have played Trading post, instead of hag.
Rabid draws: 2 Sea Hags, a Trading Post, and 2 Silvers

I did get luckier with my Hag hits, but I'm almost certain Fortune Teller is better than second Hag. It boosts economy, has basically the same immediate attack impact (potentially skip good cards, leave useless card on top), and continues to be useful when the Curses are gone.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 02:49:55 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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Rabid

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2012, 03:56:13 pm »
0

Yep, sims seem to agree, I should win the curse split but still be behind.
Seems about even 2 Hag vs 1 hag + FT on colony board.
But once you add the trading post it move to 55% in favour of FT.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2012, 08:31:34 pm »
0

A quick note:  players who are mathematically eliminated, and who withdraw with notice, will be eligible for the next IsoDom.  I don't want anyone to feel like they must play this last round if they can't make the top eight and don't wish to finish the round.

I withdraw--unless shark_bait turns out to be really eager to finish the round. :P
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2012, 06:07:22 am »
0

Does that mean sharkbait gets a win or just no result?
I think I need them to win for my tie breaks.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2012, 04:13:53 pm »
0

Does that mean sharkbait gets a win or just no result?
I think I need them to win for my tie breaks.

Unplayed matches in round 5 will be treated as draws.
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-Stef-

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2012, 04:49:57 pm »
0

Mic Qsenoch vs -Stef-   1-3

Game 1 - Apprentice, Bridge, Conspirator, Embargo, Familiar, Ghost Ship, Governor, Pirate Ship, Potion, Salvager, and Trading Post

This was a really interesting set to start with. Without any source of +actions, both Governor and Apprentice were obviously going to be the stars. Ghost ship to finish a chain, Salvager or Bridge for the +buy? The really tough choice for me was about the curses. Familiar on the board is usually a must-buy, but skipping it and try to get the vast majority of Governors was also really attractive. With huge chains involving apprentices, trashing curses away shouldnt be that hard.

I went for the governors, and Mic Qsenoch for the familiars. It turned out to be real close. I got a 7-3 governor split, resulting in a final turn gaining 3 Provinces and a Duchy. I had to sacrifice a province to pull this of, which was a rather silly miscounting-thingy that you shouldn't ask questions about. The final score 21-21 looked just fine until I realized I took both the first and the last turn. Ouch! Why am I not more carefull in a tournament?

Game 2 - Bank, Baron, Harvest, Haven, Mandarin, Market, Noble Brigand, Saboteur, Steward, and Trading Post

Yet another set without +actions but with lots of interesting interactions. In my pre-game analysis the words "haven heaven" came to mind. Three cards that love it: Baron, Trading Post & Bank. Mic Qsenoch prefered Silvers, and this was the only game that didn't feel close. 1-1.

Game 3 - Caravan, Council Room, Crossroads, Great Hall, Harem, Hunting Party, Nobles, Royal Seal, Smithy, and Wishing Well

This set features a hard-to-evaluate crossroads. All the friends from Intrige to enable lots of draw, but both +actions (only Nobles) and +buy (only Councilroom) were quite awkward. And the most important point: Hunting party was on the table, presenting a pretty serious clock.

I decided to go for it anyway, but it didnt feel good for a long long time. I think I shouldn't have made it, but he didn't buy enough Hunting Parties (3 can't be enough, right?) so despite my Councilroom plays he stalled too much.

Game 4 - Colony, Courtyard, Harem, Horse Traders, Jack of All Trades, Market, Moat, Mountebank, Peddler, Platinum, Salvager, and Watchtower

I didn't like this set. Some options (salvage a Peddler, Watchtower to block Mountebank) but they didnt seem to be worth it. So I ended up with double Jack with a Mountebank, and he played double Mountebank with a Jack. I can't really tell you which is stronger. I actually think his double Mountebank was better, but not that much. He did green too early, and that cost him the game.


All in all these were really good sets, and 3/4 of the games were very close. Not the "super engines" that make me love Dominion, but more the kind of sets that strike me as WanderingWinders favorites. Thanks for playing again, Mic Qsenoch
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2012, 05:15:21 pm »
0

Game 1 was really interesting, but I don't know how it should be played at all.

Game 2 was just me losing like a fool.

Game 3 is the only one I have much to say about. I went for Hunting Party because I almost always play the tried and true thing if I think it's reasonably good. Here it just isn't good enough though, he can basically pick up a province's worth of points each turn without hurting his deck. I actually don't stall out (province on turns 9,10,12,13,14,17), with 5 provinces before I even buy my third Hunting Party. So I feel like my luck, with the exception of some early $4 hands, was pretty incredible. My turn 11 should probably be another Hunting Party, not a Nobles.

Moral of the story: HP is real good, but not so great without a nice terminal partner. Don't ignore crossroads with Great Hall, Harem, Nobles (profound right?)

Game 4 I lose by not buying Platinum.

Well they were pretty fun games anyway, thanks for the match Stef.
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Kenuru

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2012, 06:48:44 pm »
0

Kenuru (3) - Marin (1)

Game 1: Kenuru
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-144723-e8c9522b.html
Game 2: Kenuru
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-145354-c613a4ee.html
Game 3: Marin
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-150449-7aa25817.html
Game 4: Kenuru
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120801-151637-572a9422.html
(We both talked for a bit after the match, and I forgot to get the log before the game put us back into the lobby. I'll have to get it from CouncilRoom in a while.)

Edit: added the log for Game 4.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 09:57:16 pm by Kenuru »
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Young Nick

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2012, 07:37:55 pm »
0

Young Nick beat me 3-2 yesterday. He'll be posting the logs today. I look forward to seeing them as there were some really interesting boards involved.

I'll post on it soon, I promise!
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cayvie

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2012, 08:18:52 pm »
0

ugh i drop
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Young Nick

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2012, 08:19:01 pm »
0

Young Nick defeats Jorbles 3-2!

Game 1: YN 49 - 38 J. Key cards: Gardens, Lighthouse, Tournament. I am lucky enough to open Stables/Lighthouse to Jorbles' Baron/Silver. From here I pick up Festivals and Barons and ultimately rush Gardens winning the split 5-3. With more sources of +Buy and a favorable split it comes as no surprise that my Gardens are worth 20 to his 12. I get lucky in that despite his early Province, my Tournament is rarely blocked and I even pull Followers late in the game (t19 out of 21). He gets his prize the very next turn and takes Trusty Steed for Silvers, which was a smart play. Hooray for first turn advantage. Horn of Plenty helped with some gains and the game ended on Gardens, Estates, and Lighthouses.

Game 2: J 40 - 25 YN. Key cards: Governor, Sea Hag. He opens Governor/Hamlet to my Sea Hag/Silver. We both add a Tactician as he mostly plays a Governor deck (despite only having three of them) and I do a bunch of nothing until switching my strategy to Hamlet/Menagerie. Tactician is a great enabler for Governor. I never really felt in control of this game. What should have I done? I feel that it was impossible to make up the large deficit no matter what I did.

Game 3: J 33 - 22 YN. Key cards: Chapel, Mountebank, Merchant Ship. He opens Chapel/Mountebank to my Chapel/Silver and never looks back. I go Merchant Ship hoping that he stalls mightily, but there was no coming back. He comfortably wins in a game that I never felt I had a chance in.

Game 4: YN 45 - 20 J. Key cards: Chapel, Witch, Remake. Right back at you! I open Witch/Chapel to Jorbles' Chapel/Remake. I add a Remake in the mid-game to kill Curses and dead Witches which is only slightly effective. Regardless, I cruise to a victory. It was an interesting opening for Jorbles, the Chapel/Remake. I was very surprised he didn't go Ambassador and I wonder if it would have been the best strategy. Similarly, I am curious where (if) Trading Post could have fit in. Commentary is certainly welcome here!

Game 5: J 27 - 29 YN. Key cards: Witch, Horse Traders, Mining Village. This game was definitely the most exciting of the set. We both open Horse Traders/Silver in pursuit of Witch. We each get one, but mine misses the first reshuffle. He gets a second and I take a Gold. He pumps Curses into me super fast and I keep hitting 7. We are both nearly certain that I will lose the game seeing as by turn 18, he has 4 Provinces to my 1 and I have lost the Curse split 3-7. I then proceed to end the game on three straight Province buys which amazed both of us. His three last turns net him a Crossroads, a Mining Village and nothing. My 3-1 Duchy split gave me the two point victory. Later we realized that I had a much better economy than we had initially realized and that his Mining Villages had given him a false sense of economy (in my opinion, at least). It was certainly an unexpected comeback. Just look at the Victory Point graph at the bottom!

Note: We played the last game without the point counter by accident, but neither of us minded.

Jorbles was a great opponent and we had lots of good conversation throughout the set. I am excited to hear what he has to say on all of this! As always, questions and comments are welcome and appreciated!

But really at least check out the VP graph on Game 5!

Edit: Edited a non-nonsensical sentence.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 01:29:34 pm by Young Nick »
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ycz6

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2012, 08:22:56 pm »
0

Um, I'm not sure exactly what just happened, but I think cayvie resigned his match against me?

Game 1: cayvie 12-14 ycz http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-171208-db707c91.html

Quarry/Grand Market with Develop. He had a chance to end the game on the last turn and just barely messed it up, and I won on my turn.

Game 2: cayvie resigns 0 ycz, didn't grab the log

Minion game with 6 trashers, he resigned after I finished off the Minions
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2012, 08:35:24 pm »
0

ugh i drop

Um, I'm not sure exactly what just happened, but I think cayvie resigned his match against me?

Game 1: cayvie 12-14 ycz http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-171208-db707c91.html

Quarry/Grand Market with Develop. He had a chance to end the game on the last turn and just barely messed it up, and I won on my turn.

Game 2: cayvie resigns 0 ycz, didn't grab the log

Minion game with 6 trashers, he resigned after I finished off the Minions

Are you actually resigning the match cayvie?  Note you're still within reach of the top 8 in your bracket.
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zxcvbn2

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2012, 09:06:03 pm »
+1

Finished my match with greatexpectations. Won 3-0.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-174323-30d9cc82.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-174908-0127b0b5.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-175601-2048e414.html

I thought these were mostly boring games, to be honest. I liked using bishop with Governor to trash gold in Game 3 versus basically vanilla hunting-party BM with monument. But mostly these were BM-dominated sets.

Thanks to greatexpectations for playing, and I think I'm probably not moving on, barring some outstanding circumstances. But I'd like to take this opportunity to shamelessly plug my own One Day Tourney this weekend: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3557.0 If you're free this Saturday, I'd love to have you!
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Grujah

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2012, 10:07:10 pm »
+2

Me and Ins couldn't connect to Iso cause it was malfunctioning, so we played it out on FunSockets. I don't know how long that FunSockets host logs so I saved them on my db.

Grujah 3 - 2 Insomniac.

Game 1:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20240121/vsIns/Baron.txt
I go BM-Baron he makes this huge Smithy/WV engine. He didn't manage to catch up with me. Also my baron hit Estate every time. So lucky there. :D

Game 2:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20240121/vsIns/Coppersmith.txt
I go BM + few supports (Should have gotten more moats) he makes this huge awesome Lab/Market/Bazaar/Coppersmith engine. This time, he managed to catch up with a last minute comback and wins.

Game 3:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20240121/vsIns/Torturer.txt
Torturer hell. Ended on piles, Tort, WV and Curses. I won because I had Bishop who got me some VP.

Game 4:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20240121/vsIns/Amb1.txt
He just stomps me. He goes Caravans while I try Ambasador sheneningans and fail.

Game 5:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20240121/vsIns/King%27sCourt.txt
Big Shot Kards. KC, Wharf, Amb, Sea Hag.
I Ambasador away 6 curses in one turn :D
He managed a early KC, I struggled hitting 5. Came at about equal decks, he was lacking Wharfs perhaps.
Ended on piles, Great Halls, Shanty Towns and Curses. I won.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 10:12:44 pm by Grujah »
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2012, 10:10:00 pm »
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Me and Ins couldn't connect to Iso cause it was malfunctioning, so we played it out on FunSockets. I don't know how long that FunSockets host logs so I saved them on my db.

Grujah 3 - 2 Insomniac.

Game 1:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20240121/vsIns/Baron.txt
I go BM-Baron/Smithy he makes this huge Smithy/WV engine. He didn't manage to catch up with me.

Game 2:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20240121/vsIns/Coppersmith.txt
I go BM + few supports (Should have gotten more moats) he makes this huge Lab/Market/Bazaar/Coppersmith engine. This time, he managed to catch up with a last minute comback and wins.

Game 3:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20240121/vsIns/Torturer.txt
Torturer hell. Ended on piles, Tort, WV and Curses. I won because I had Bishop who got me some VP.

Game 4:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20240121/vsIns/Amb1.txt
He just stomps me. He goes Caravans while I try Ambasador sheneningans and fail.

Game 5:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20240121/vsIns/King%27sCourt.txt
Big Shot Kards. KC, Wharf, Amb, Sea Hag.
I Ambasador away 6 curses in one turn :D
He managed a early KC, I struggled hitting 5. Came at about equal decks, he was lacking Wharfs perhaps.
Ended on piles, Great Halls, Shanty Towns and Curses. I won.

First tournament game on Funsockets! Awesome!
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2012, 10:32:58 pm »
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ednever 3
Rhombus 2

Logs:
A long drawn out battle. Rhombus pulls ahead, but my slimmed Ambassador deck is able to flood him with curses and I pull out a victory:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-182804-b42cd09a.html

Colonies >> Vineyards. Rhombus takes it
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-185324-f9faaaa7.html

University with killer $5s >> Familiar. ednever takes it
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-190006-2abd12b8.html

Pirate Ship is an awesome enabler for Dukes. Rhombus wallops me
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-191452-92fa6bb7.html

Do you trash your Mining Villages to get a Grand Market when you have a Haggler and Minion is on the board? Answer: Yes. Hard to come back from that. Game and series: ednever
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-192634-e16327db.html


Great set of games. In the first four we each played very different strategies and the best strategy won. I just got lucky to be first player with a single good draw off the start in the last game and GM's become a steamroller.

Ed
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2012, 10:46:56 pm »
+2

First tournament game on Funsockets! Awesome!

I felt kinda stupid cause name of tourney is "IsoDom"  ;D
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2012, 11:00:16 pm »
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My comments on the fun set with Grujah

Game 1:
I went WV+Smithy here hoping the +Buy would help me come back late game. It didn't.

Game 2:
When I looked at this board I saw everything I needed for a late game engine. Outpost provides a psuedo buy early and late game with a lab engine it doesn't matter if you have 3 cards you'll get your deck. Market is needed as a source of REAL +buy here. Bazaar is 2 coins AND a village. Coppersmith is a powerhouse in a deck filled of mostly copper. Lab is my card draw engine and what I focus the most on. Because of coppersmith, +buy(s) and villages I manage to start building my deck quick and have quite a lot of power at the end of the game. On the last turn I could have waited to try and end it on my outpost turn but I was pretty sure it was safer to end it for sure and my math suggested I would win.

Game 3:
First to torturer gets to torture the torturing torturers into torturer oblivion. Oh and also I detoured for a ghost ship because I like a ghost ship in the torturer engine (to force a discard first and then they toss a turn or take the curses). Anyways bishop here was the right call.

Game 4: I can't remember where I saw it but recently I saw someone say if you theoretically get to play a caravan everyturn then you have 6 card hands. Caravan is a cantrip the turn you play it and a lab the next so its a net 0 on the turn you play it for a net benefit the next turn. It costs less than a lab but it misses the reshuffle more than lab. Anyways I figured caravan/mint was right here, my mint allowed me to junk some of the copper I knew I'd be receiving from ambassador and that allowed me to delay my ambassador purchase to buy money quicker. I got a few throne rooms because TR+Caravan is a village double lab, TR+Mint is double good stuff and TR+Amb also helps catch up. Other than that I just buy money and VP


Game 5:
Best curse slog I've played in a long time, perhaps ever. He opens Amb to counter sea hag and give me garbage I stick with sea hag and get a late amb. I manage to get KC first but by the time I have a lot of draw cards its hard to line them up with KC.

Thanks again for the games.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2012, 11:03:30 pm »
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Aaaaaaand while rspeer and I are playing our 5th game, Iso seems to go down.

Edit:  OK, here's the first four logs:

Kirian 38-27 rspeer http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-190631-1c2deaf6.html
Kirian 31-23 rspeer http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-192344-4dcc0c1d.html
Kirian 27-35 rspeer http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-193339-263e3629.html
Kirian 21-51 rspeer http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-194448-1c046e06.html

Game 1:  Jack with almost nothing else interesting.  First-player advantage and some luck take it.
Game 2:  Interesting set.  Rspeer's last two turns are terrible, which allows me to sneak the win.  University to gain Inn, shuffle actions in, then Torturer to draw them... was pretty cool.
Game 3:  I suck at Governor, forgetting that the PPR really becomes the third-to-last Province rule in Governor games.
Game 4:  I suck at reading, intending to get Develop for its interaction with IGG (Gold/Island on deck isn't bad).  Alas, I miss that Chapel is on the board too.  And then I continue to suck at Governor.

Game 5:

So, yeah.  Iso decided to go unstable on us while I was up quite a bit (10 to -4 or so at the end of rspeer's turn, and I was about to pass him a Curse).  Board was Goons, Masq, Farming Village, Mining Village, Witch, Chapel, and some unimportant cards I can't remember.  I'll be able to post the logs tomorrow when CR.com scrapes them.  I really think I had rspeer on the ropes here, but he wasn't really in a position where he'd be resigning yet.

Alas, I'm at an impasse where, as tournament director, I can't make an impartial decision regarding this.  So I throw it to the forum for, at the very least, thoughts.  Play the same kingdom again?  Play something completely new?  Try to make the case to the public that the game was in hand?  Call it unresolvable and declare a tie?  Thoughts from the masses?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 11:37:57 pm by Kirian »
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2012, 11:33:39 pm »
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Kirian was reasonably on his way to beating me in the fifth game. We were playing similar decks (unreliable engines with Goons and Masquerade, among cursers and trashers), but he had fewer curses, two more bridges, and two more villages, and IIRC he was up in score something like 10 to -4. We won't know the exact state of the game until the cr.com log goes up tomorrow.

But it's not a position I would have resigned from. I had maybe a 1% chance of coming back and winning.

Two reasonable options are that we play the last game another time, with Kirian going first again, or that I make everything simpler by conceding. This is one of those "ask the tournament director" situations, except Kirian is the tournament director.

So... would any of the armchair ethicists on this forum care to weigh in?
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2012, 11:38:58 pm »
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Heh, my edit was ninja'd by rspeer.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2012, 12:23:32 am »
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If you really think you had just 1% to win, I think you should just give it to Kirian. I'd say this holds true until 10% at least.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2012, 02:12:13 am »
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Sounds about right then.

Kirian, you played well and Isotropic took away what was almost certainly a victory for you. I concede the match.

Thanks for all you've done in setting up this tournament, by the way.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2012, 02:20:11 am »
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Kirian 31-23 rspeer http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/01/game-20120801-192344-4dcc0c1d.html

Game 2:  Interesting set.  Rspeer's last two turns are terrible, which allows me to sneak the win.  University to gain Inn, shuffle actions in, then Torturer to draw them... was pretty cool.

Looks like Iso ate these logs, too. But yeah, Game 2 was a really interesting set.

In addition to the University/Torturer/Inn shebang Kirian described, there were lighthouses to defend, and there were also Great Halls, Transmutes, and Dukes, and I was trying to Transmute excess actions from my universities (especially Great Halls) during my combos to gain lots of Duchies along the way. (They split 4-4 anyway.)

I had to stop multiple times to read the text on Transmute, because I haven't played Transmute with a purpose in years. But I probably played it too often, which earned me those sucky hands at the end.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2012, 10:01:59 am »
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FWIW, here's the scrape from CR.com:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120801-200338-7bde70a8.html

Since this is a Masquerade game, the game state is not completely clear; I think I had only one Curse at this point, and was about to pass another to rspeer (who would have passed me one as well).  It didn't record my other Bridge purchase either.  I guess our action totals were closer than I thought, but my deck was a lot thinner; I probably would have taken Gold + Bridge on my next buy, and the Bridges would then have been in danger of being run out, with rspeer having little chance to catch up on victory tokens.

I think looking at this I'd give him closer to a 5-10% chance to recover, but all those Coppers and Curses were going to make his deck really hard to work with.

----

In game 2, rspeer got the chance to Transmute a Great Hall for both a Duchy and a Gold, which was kinda cool.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2012, 12:36:33 pm »
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If I qualify for the Bracket B finals, I want to let my opponent know that I'll be on vacation from Aug 4 to Aug 12. From the 7th on I'll have limited internet and can probably coordinate a game for when I get back. Hope that's okay, Kirian!
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2012, 01:41:48 pm »
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i forfeit, lekkit gets the win. dropping out too if there are any more rounds.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2012, 01:13:53 pm »
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lespeutere vs Obi Wan Bonogi
3 - 1

1 - 0 (75 - 56)
We have goons as the central card, apothecaries, nobles, minions, golems (, scouts) as helpers. We split goons 5/5, he gets 3 minions vs my 2, 6 apos vs. my 4 but I get 6 nobles vs. his 2. Hard to figure out how far we can drain the piles w/o letting the other one win. Finally I empty 3 piles (with 1st player advantage).

1 - 1 (20 - 25)
Goons again, no engine potential though as there is no draw anywhere. OWB gets his goons together earlier, maybe the 2nd quarry was key here?!? Don't know. Well, with consistently playing goons every turn he comfortably drains the piles, I should've tried to buy some green earlier but I don't think I had a realistic chance to win it, despite the mere 5 point difference.

2 - 1 (36 - 21
I start 4/3 on this remake, city, minion, ghost ship board, while OWB starts 5/2 which I see as my advantage. He starts with minion while I go for remake/silver, but he misses to build up a minion lead, buying a city and a ghost ship instead resulting in a 7/2 minion split for me (he gets his 3rd minion in his last turn, activating the cities' level 3) which I think is key, here. I start greening with 7 minions but w/o any +buy while he has a salvager and a jack so he's able to gain cards while I'm not. He could've tied by buying 2 duchies and the last province on his last turn or won with an additional estate. Instead he has to activate cities and hope for me having stalled or drawn badly but I haven't and can finish it.

3 - 1 (30 - 13)
Goons again... This time there are NV and scrying pool as support, but there is witch as well and trading post, quarry (which I skip) as enabler for early purchases of expensive cards. I start militia/NV, OWB quarry/NV. He gets his witch on t3, while I get a potion for SP. I've got a little more junk cards and less NVs but 5 SPs compared to his 3. NVs are gone early, curses shortly afterwards. In t17 he gets 3 goons so emptying the goons pile is within my reach with a nice SP/NV/goons turn which I get in t19.

3 goons games out of 4 - and this against one the more skilled engine builders - I'm really happy I could win this series, thanks for the match!
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2012, 08:59:43 pm »
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Turkman (3) vs andwilk (2)

Andwilk and I just finished our games. They were mostly fun, though I was not a fan of a couple of the sets. I ended up resigning two of the games because andwilk clearly had them.

Unfortunately, I do not have much time right now to provide more details. But, here are the logs.

game 1: andwilk 30 / turkman [resigned]
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/05/game-20120805-170626-f0471bb9.html

game 2: turkman 60 / andwilk 34
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/05/game-20120805-171643-e66338ae.html

game 3: andwilk 18 / turkman 33
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/05/game-20120805-172529-82cdc632.html

game 4: andwilk 27 / turkman (resigned)
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/05/game-20120805-173335-8f7b0af7.html

game 5: turk 58, andwilk 56
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/05/game-20120805-175237-d55bf5b6.html
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2012, 11:58:19 am »
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jmieden 3 - bedlam 2

Council Room doesn't have our games yet- I will post when I can. Here's what I remember

Game 1- bedlam 55, jmieden 54 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120805-203018-dbe3583f.html

Game 2- bedlam 52, jmieden 61 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120805-205752-2ec49e1e.html

Game 3- bedlam 36, jmieden 30 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120805-211010-5331f6d7.html

Game 4- jmieden 43, bedlam 36 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120805-212141-1e8a78a0.html

Game 5- bedlam 36, jmieden 37 http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120805-212846-9081b226.html

I'm not sure why council room doesn't have them up- we played last night at 8p-9p pacific time.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 04:09:55 pm by jmieden »
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2012, 09:36:17 pm »
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I'm waiting on word from the last two matches, one in A, one in B, where I've heard from both players that, yes, the match is happening, but haven't seen results posted yet.  Unfortunately, in both cases the outcome of the match will determine whether someone continues.

Edit:  I'm wrong, though I had to look at Bracket B more carefully.  In bracket B, the only thing the last unplayed match will determine is which of those two players is seeded fourth, and which is fifth... and so they'll play each other anyway! Dammit, this was wrong.

Still waiting on Bracket A, though.  B and C elimination brackets will be posted in the next couple of hours.

NOTE: Remember that the tie-breakers on Challonge ARE NOT CORRECT due to byes, drops, etc.  Here are the standings for the two known brackets:

Bracket B:

Isn't actually set yet.

Bracket C:

Qvist
Wizard of Woz
Teproc
angrybirds
yudantaiteki (chriskern)
jmieden
clb
Grujah (SpajderDzerusalem)

I want to express some thansk to bedlam and Insomniac for actually sticking around and playing out their last matches!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 02:07:40 am by Kirian »
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yuma

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2012, 11:21:27 pm »
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sad face ( :'( ) I'm the only 3-2 player from group B not to advance
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2012, 02:06:30 am »
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sad face ( :'( ) I'm the only 3-2 player from group B not to advance

Turkman and zxcvbn2 are also 3-2 (zxcvbn has 2-2 with one bye).

[looks at spreadsheet]

Goddammit.  Hold the presses.  Group B's last match does affect the tiebreakers.  Shit.

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2012, 08:55:42 am »
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Will the elimination brackets be posted on the same Challonge page as the Swiss match-ups?
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2012, 08:58:58 am »
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Will the elimination brackets be posted on the same Challonge page as the Swiss match-ups?

And basically we can already start scheduling out matches in Bracket C, right? I assume it's going to be #1-#8, #2-#7, etc.

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2012, 09:10:10 am »
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Yes, and yes.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2012, 09:56:58 am »
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NOTE: Remember that the tie-breakers on Challonge ARE NOT CORRECT due to byes, drops, etc.  Here are the standings for the two known brackets:

Bracket B:

Isn't actually set yet.

Bracket C:

Qvist
Wizard of Woz
Teproc
angrybirds
yudantaiteki (chriskern)
jmieden
clb
Grujah (SpajderDzerusalem)

I want to express some thansk to bedlam and Insomniac for actually sticking around and playing out their last matches!

Is this one official or the one on Challonge? I'm ranked 6th in this one, but 7th on Challonge due to a tiebreak point placing clb ahead of me. Just asking so I can coordinate with the right opponent. Thanks!

Edit: nvm- I see the first sentence of my quote. I assume that's what we're doing.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 09:58:38 am by jmieden »
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2012, 12:04:03 pm »
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I'm waiting on word from the last two matches, one in A, one in B, where I've heard from both players that, yes, the match is happening, but haven't seen results posted yet.  Unfortunately, in both cases the outcome of the match will determine whether someone continues.

Edit:  I'm wrong, though I had to look at Bracket B more carefully.  In bracket B, the only thing the last unplayed match will determine is which of those two players is seeded fourth, and which is fifth... and so they'll play each other anyway! Dammit, this was wrong.

Still waiting on Bracket A, though.  B and C elimination brackets will be posted in the next couple of hours.

NOTE: Remember that the tie-breakers on Challonge ARE NOT CORRECT due to byes, drops, etc.  Here are the standings for the two known brackets:

Bracket B:

Isn't actually set yet.

Bracket C:

Qvist
Wizard of Woz
Teproc
angrybirds
yudantaiteki (chriskern)
jmieden
clb
Grujah (SpajderDzerusalem)

I want to express some thansk to bedlam and Insomniac for actually sticking around and playing out their last matches!

No worries, but to be fair I knew that I had a chance of top 8ing on tie breaks ;)
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2012, 11:41:47 pm »
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True, I believe everyone still in bracket C had a chance of getting into the top 8.

I'm giving our last two matches until tomorrow night to get their results turned in, because I'm on a plane on Thursday.  If they're not in, both players forfeit their spots in the Top 8--no handshake ties, as stated above.
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Wizard of Woz

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2012, 01:47:12 pm »
0

When are the results for the next round due?  Traveling this weekend and wondering if I have to try to squeeze it in before then, or if I can play early next week.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2012, 02:03:50 pm »
0

At this point, the delay is such that it will have to go through next weekend to be fair to people.  So, 20 August.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2012, 02:47:30 am »
0

Bracket A seeds:

qmech
HiveMindEmulator
DG
-Stef-
ycz6
Jfrisch
lespeutere
Mic Qsenoch

Challonge actually has these correct!
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Lekkit

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2012, 05:50:58 am »
0

Good luck everyone!
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Rabid

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2012, 08:34:49 am »
0

Bracket A seeds:

qmech
HiveMindEmulator
DG
-Stef-
ycz6
Jfrisch
lespeutere
Mic Qsenoch

Challonge actually has these correct!

Are you sure these are correct?

Mic Qsenoch    3 - 2 - 0    0    8.0    3.0
Rabid    3 - 2 - 0    0    7.0    3.0

Mic Qsenoch 4 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 4 = 11 or 7 discarding top and bottom.
Rabid 1.5 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 4 | = 12.5 or 7 discarding top and bottom.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #80 on: August 09, 2012, 09:44:03 am »
0

Actually, Mic played Fabian, who went 1-3 before dropping, so on Challonge he'd be 4 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 4, which is 8 for tiebreaker, or 12 total.  But for you, since shark_bait was only 1-3, you have 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 4 on Challonge, 7 for tiebreaker, 12 altogether.

That doesn't take into account unplayed matches and dropouts; as described in the tiebreaking thread, we can't fault people for having played someone who later dropped.  The correct numbers from my spreadsheet are:

Mic Qsenoch: 4 (HME); 1.5 (ddubois, early drop); 1.5 (Fabian, early drop); 3 (lespuetere); 4 (Stef) = 8.5 (top and bottom dropped) then 14 (no drops)
Rabid: 1.5 (Eevee, early drop); 1.5 (shark bait, early drop); 2 (Obi Wan Bonogi); 3 (cayvie); 4 (HME) = 6.5 (top and bottom dropped) then 12 (no drops)
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2012, 01:11:26 pm »
0

Apologies in haste I miss read this line to be a score of 0:
Fabian    1 - 3 - 0    0    7.0    0.0

Good luck in the final everyone.
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