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Author Topic: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread  (Read 30457 times)

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Kirian

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IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« on: July 25, 2012, 09:44:06 pm »
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Time for Round 5!  All of the pairings are now up at:

http://isodom.challonge.com/

Bracket A people:  I gave O the benefit of the doubt, given his notification in the Mafia threads of a computer blowout.  He received a loss rather than a dropout.

Final round of the Swiss portion, which will determine seeding for the elimination portion.  Good luck!

Results are due by 1000 EDT on Monday 06 August 2012.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2012, 10:30:12 pm »
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I withdraw/forfeit.  8 people in bracket B have 3 wins, yes?  No point in arranging a game.  Greatexpectations can have the win.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 11:53:29 pm »
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I withdraw/forfeit.  8 people in bracket B have 3 wins, yes?  No point in arranging a game.  Greatexpectations can have the win.

Very well.  A quick note:  players who are mathematically eliminated, and who withdraw with notice, will be eligible for the next IsoDom.  I don't want anyone to feel like they must play this last round if they can't make the top eight and don't wish to finish the round.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 02:51:28 am »
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I withdraw/forfeit.  8 people in bracket B have 3 wins, yes?  No point in arranging a game.  Greatexpectations can have the win.

Very well.  A quick note:  players who are mathematically eliminated, and who withdraw with notice, will be eligible for the next IsoDom.  I don't want anyone to feel like they must play this last round if they can't make the top eight and don't wish to finish the round.

Does that create an unfair situation for people who aren't matched up against forfeiting people?  Or does the swiss-style bracket deal with that?  (That is, if there's a "mathematically eliminated" person matched up against someone who still has a chance, if the eliminated person forfeits, is that unfair for other people?)
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 02:55:06 am »
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The people who didn't want to play the last round should pretty clearly have dropped out before pairings for round 5 (I guess that's what "with notice" means). Getting paired and then not bothering is kinda lame, and hurts the person (/people) who wants to play but doesn't get to because of a forced bye. It's definitely possible someone could get a bye into the top8 too chris, some 2-2 guy getting paired down against a 1-3 guy who decides to not bother playing, or something. No idea if that's actually happening in these cases, but it's certainly plausible.
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jsh357

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 07:51:32 am »
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The people who didn't want to play the last round should pretty clearly have dropped out before pairings for round 5 (I guess that's what "with notice" means). Getting paired and then not bothering is kinda lame, and hurts the person (/people) who wants to play but doesn't get to because of a forced bye. It's definitely possible someone could get a bye into the top8 too chris, some 2-2 guy getting paired down against a 1-3 guy who decides to not bother playing, or something. No idea if that's actually happening in these cases, but it's certainly plausible.

I should clarify: If greatexpectations would prefer to play me he can, but given the need to schedule a time and all that for an ultimately pointless game on one player's end, I don't see the purpose--effectively all I can do is prevent HIM from having a hope for the top 8, which doesn't appeal to me.  Yes, I should have dropped before Round 5, but I did not realize I was mathematically eliminated until the full bracket was in.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 08:06:54 am »
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I should clarify: If greatexpectations would prefer to play me he can, but given the need to schedule a time and all that for an ultimately pointless game on one player's end, I don't see the purpose--effectively all I can do is prevent HIM from having a hope for the top 8, which doesn't appeal to me.

But if you *don't* play, aren't you're giving him an advantage in making the top 8 over the other 2-2 people?

I don't think you should look at it as "all I can do is hurt greatexpectations" since the assumption of the tournament is that you will play.  It's not like you're choosing to play in order to prevent him from advancing.

EDIT: I don't even think it's true that you can only hurt him, since I believe 3-2 is better than 2-2 + a bye.  But I may be wrong about that.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 08:11:16 am by yudantaiteki »
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 08:35:22 am »
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What is the policy on draws?
Potentially intentional.
(For example in Magic it is allowed to agree to a draw, due to the difficulty of enforcing optimal play and time limits)

In the A bracket if all 8 players on 3-1 were to draw they would all make Top 8 for example.

This is complicated by the games being played at different times.
In theory you could wait to play your game to have more information about the other results.

I would propose a rules change (I know its a bit late) Play first to 3 wins, instead of best for 5.
Those stopping draws from being possible.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 08:38:46 am »
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Well I mean, I'll leave it up to him.  I work at home so my schedule's wide open.  Winning accomplishes nothing for me, though (and given how badly I've been playing the past few months I don't expect to anyway).  Like Fabian says, I should have resigned earlier, but I always hold off until I know where I actually stand.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 08:57:53 am »
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Hrm.

Interestingly, this only applies to Bracket B.  In Bracket A, anyone who's already eliminated is scheduled to play someone else who is also eliminated.  In Bracket C, anyone mathematically eliminated has already dropped out.

Now, in Bracket B, the pairing algorithm has done something weird.  Neither greatexpectations nor zxcvbn are mathematically eliminated; however, each has been paired with someone who is.  If no one in Bracket B has a problem with this, I'll ask greatexpectations to square off with zxcvbn, which means I'll end up doing tie-breaker calculations manually.

greatexpectations, zxcvbn, you guys OK with that?  Anyone else in Bracket B have objections?
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 09:14:59 am »
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What is the policy on draws?
Potentially intentional.
(For example in Magic it is allowed to agree to a draw, due to the difficulty of enforcing optimal play and time limits)

In the A bracket if all 8 players on 3-1 were to draw they would all make Top 8 for example.

Also an interesting point, though not quite true, as JFrisch could get to 4 points, bumping someone out (I'm unsure who because the tie-break mechanism is complex, but I'm sure someone who wants to run the numbers could figure it out).  That person is going to try for a win, forcing his opponent to play for a win, making a bunch of handshake ties less than ideal for some players.

I'm loath to change the rules at this point.  But given that (1) it won't work in this particular case, (2) there have so far been no ties in Bracket A, (3) colluding to produce a tie is going to be rather difficult and could be somewhat obvious, and (4) frankly, I trust high-level players not to dick around with the system like that, I don't think there's reason to change things.

However, I will modify a tiny bit:  "handshake" ties are disallowed for this round.
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greatexpectations

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 09:41:26 am »
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i am totally fine with facing (or not facing) anyone. i'll go with whatever you guys say is best.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 09:52:46 am »
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What is the policy on draws?
Potentially intentional.
(For example in Magic it is allowed to agree to a draw, due to the difficulty of enforcing optimal play and time limits)

In the A bracket if all 8 players on 3-1 were to draw they would all make Top 8 for example.

Also an interesting point, though not quite true, as JFrisch could get to 4 points, bumping someone out (I'm unsure who because the tie-break mechanism is complex, but I'm sure someone who wants to run the numbers could figure it out).  That person is going to try for a win, forcing his opponent to play for a win, making a bunch of handshake ties less than ideal for some players.

I'm loath to change the rules at this point.  But given that (1) it won't work in this particular case, (2) there have so far been no ties in Bracket A, (3) colluding to produce a tie is going to be rather difficult and could be somewhat obvious, and (4) frankly, I trust high-level players not to dick around with the system like that, I don't think there's reason to change things.

However, I will modify a tiny bit:  "handshake" ties are disallowed for this round.

Oops, missed that I was looking at wins not points.
This is where playing late in the week helps.
Wait for for any other pair to play.
Now only 8 players can get to 3.5 point and you can happily draw.
 
Stopping "handshake" ties is a good solution.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 11:13:16 am »
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Now, in Bracket B, the pairing algorithm has done something weird.  Neither greatexpectations nor zxcvbn are mathematically eliminated; however, each has been paired with someone who is.  If no one in Bracket B has a problem with this, I'll ask greatexpectations to square off with zxcvbn, which means I'll end up doing tie-breaker calculations manually.

greatexpectations, zxcvbn, you guys OK with that?  Anyone else in Bracket B have objections?
No, objections, although zxcvbn2 needs his previous opponents to do well to really still be in. Having a bye really doesn't help you when it comes down to the tiebreaker.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 12:47:22 pm »
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What is the policy on draws?
Potentially intentional.
(For example in Magic it is allowed to agree to a draw, due to the difficulty of enforcing optimal play and time limits)

In the A bracket if all 8 players on 3-1 were to draw they would all make Top 8 for example.

Also an interesting point, though not quite true, as JFrisch could get to 4 points, bumping someone out (I'm unsure who because the tie-break mechanism is complex, but I'm sure someone who wants to run the numbers could figure it out).  That person is going to try for a win, forcing his opponent to play for a win, making a bunch of handshake ties less than ideal for some players.

I'm loath to change the rules at this point.  But given that (1) it won't work in this particular case, (2) there have so far been no ties in Bracket A, (3) colluding to produce a tie is going to be rather difficult and could be somewhat obvious, and (4) frankly, I trust high-level players not to dick around with the system like that, I don't think there's reason to change things.

However, I will modify a tiny bit:  "handshake" ties are disallowed for this round.

Oops, missed that I was looking at wins not points.
This is where playing late in the week helps.
Wait for for any other pair to play.
Now only 8 players can get to 3.5 point and you can happily draw.
 
Stopping "handshake" ties is a good solution.
Round 5 results still affect seeding though, right? So agreeing to draw would mean giving up a chance at being highly-seeded. Granted, having a high seed is maybe not worth much in such a strong group.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 01:41:17 pm »
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Now, in Bracket B, the pairing algorithm has done something weird.  Neither greatexpectations nor zxcvbn are mathematically eliminated; however, each has been paired with someone who is.  If no one in Bracket B has a problem with this, I'll ask greatexpectations to square off with zxcvbn, which means I'll end up doing tie-breaker calculations manually.

greatexpectations, zxcvbn, you guys OK with that?  Anyone else in Bracket B have objections?
No, objections, although zxcvbn2 needs his previous opponents to do well to really still be in. Having a bye really doesn't help you when it comes down to the tiebreaker.

Yeah.  I may have to create a different tie-breaker system to handle all the dropouts and byes, though I wouldn't feel comfortable implementing them in the middle of the tournament.  I guess the modified-median should help take care of it, but someone who played against two dropouts early on might have their tiebreaker screwed up by that.

I've been trying to find more information on what other people do for a Swiss tiebreaker with dropouts, but Googling "Swiss tiebreaker with dropouts" actually gets me two threads in this sub-forum on the first page.  So... yeah.
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2012, 01:47:00 pm »
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Kirian,

Take player A. Look at his 5 opponents, players B-F. None of players B-F have dropped. Figure out the combined record of players B-F, let's say it's 18-12, or 60%.

Take player B. Look at his 5 opponents, player A and players D-G. Player G dropped before round 5. Figure out the combined record of player A and players D-G, let's say it's 18-11, or 62.07%

Player B moves on, player A is sad.
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2012, 02:07:16 pm »
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Kirian,

Take player A. Look at his 5 opponents, players B-F. None of players B-F have dropped. Figure out the combined record of players B-F, let's say it's 18-12, or 60%.

Take player B. Look at his 5 opponents, player A and players D-G. Player G dropped before round 5. Figure out the combined record of player A and players D-G, let's say it's 18-11, or 62.07%

Player B moves on, player A is sad.

Hmm.  That would also average byes out, which is again a help.  I like it.

Another way to do this would be to give "Bye" a "ranking" of 0.  Because the Median-Buchholz system drops the top and bottom scores, it would drop the 0, but allow the player with a bye to still have the same number of matches count for tie-breaking.  Since no one will have more than one bye, that would work reasonably well.
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Fabian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2012, 02:16:22 pm »
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That sounds like a different system that I've never heard of and probably doesn't exist. I mean, you do what you want because it's your tournament, but, like, this is how to do it.

And yeah I think I remember commenting on that "drop the best and worst score" thing in one of the tournament structure discussions, and how silly it is. Still feel that way, especially for such a short tournament (three opponents determine your tie-breakers?)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 02:18:29 pm by Fabian »
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Kirian

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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2012, 03:24:35 pm »
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Hmm.  From FIDE, regarding byes and forfeits:

"For tie-break purposes all unplayed games in which players are indirectly involved (results by forfeit of opponents) are considered to have been drawn.

For tie-break purposes a player who has no opponent will be considered as having played against a virtual opponent who has the same number of points at the beginning of the round and who draws in all the following rounds. For the round itself the result by forfeit will be considered as a normal result."

As for the other concern, in tournaments with N <= 5, dropping the upper and lower scores is pretty common.  In fact, with N <= 9, usually the top two and bottom two scores are dropped.  Basically, this is designed to prevent a middle-of-the-road player from getting a huge tiebreak score because they were lucky enough in the first round to go up against the only person who went 5-0, for instance--or, unlucky enough to go up against a dropout who never won.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2012, 03:46:18 pm »
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First sentence, there is no unplayed game against an opponent who forfeits when it comes to a bye. There is a bye. I guess it could apply to the guy who was paired and then said he didn't feel like playing though? In Magic that would be considered just losing the game, but it doesn't really ever happen there as people typically drop out before the round starts, or they play.

The second sentence, I guess I stand corrected/I'm flabbergasted/I'm dumbfounded.

The third paragraph, that's exactly what's stupid about that system; it's designed to remove the thing which a tie-breaker system checks for. Playing against a 5-0 player isn't "lucky" or "unlucky" in the context of tie-breakers. It's being rewarded for having played strong opposition over players who haven't played strong opposition, by getting tie-breakers that are stronger than those other players who didn't play stronger opposition.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2012, 04:13:09 pm »
+1

Basically, this is designed to prevent a middle-of-the-road player from getting a huge tiebreak score because they were lucky enough in the first round to go up against the only person who went 5-0, for instance--or, unlucky enough to go up against a dropout who never won.
One could argue that going up against someone who went 5-0 could be considered unlucky...
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2012, 12:40:30 pm »
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blueblimp defeats yuma 3-1-1

Game 1: blueblimp 11 - yuma 5
Game 2: yuma 24 - blueblimp 54
Game 3: yuma 36 - blueblimp 36
Game 4: blueblimp -100 - yuma 41
Game 5: blueblimp 31 - yuma 29

Thanks yuma for the interesting games. Lots of interesting kingdoms here.
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2012, 12:58:30 pm »
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Thoughts:

Game 1: I don't know whether Remodel/Grand Market is actually much good in Province games, but anyway there's no good BM option, so I go for it, and so does yuma. A combination of Cellars, Villages, and Watchtowers later on allows for a surprisingly good engine, and I'm able to end it on piles. I'd love to see what a strong engine player would do with this kingdom.

Game 2: Tactician/Black Market... and Coppersmith. (Crossroads helps a lot too here.) To give an idea of how crazy Coppersmith was here: on my second-last turn, I have $31 to spend on a turn where I play a Tactician. I thought I was dead when yuma got Goons out of the Black Market, but the game wasn't long enough for the VP tokens to dominate. The Haggler I pulled helped a lot.

Game 3: Ghost Ship and Duke seem key here. I move to Duchies sooner than yuma, winning the split 5-3, but then he gets a 6-2 split on the Dukes. He tries to run out the Estate pile before I can pull ahead, but a good turn 23 (aided by his Ghost Ship play the previous turn) gets me a Province, and I'm able to tie it. In hindsight, maybe it's worth skipping Ghost Ship entirely: a single Ghost Ship play almost seems to help when aiming for $5.

(At this point, I'm guaranteed at minimum a tie in the series.)

Game 4: I think Tactician/Mountebank will wreck any sort of engine, but yuma puts together something reasonable with Highway/Crossroads/Tactician/Haggler (and Mountebank too, of course). I resign once it becomes mathematically impossible to win.

Game 5: A Festival/Envoy engine enabled by Chapel. We both make the dumb move of getting a Pirate Ship, and neither of us get more than a single token on it. My thought was that, since he opened Envoy/Chapel, I might be able to prevent him from hitting $5 for a Festival, but it failed. Anyway, maybe because I'm first player, I manage to get a 6-4 split on the Festivals. My engine is consequently stronger, so I'm able to win.

Few more misc. thoughts on game 5: an engine is clearly the right play here, because BM+Envoy will get wrecked by a Pirate Ship engine. I make a dumb play on turn 14 when I trash my Silver because I'm scared of Pirate Ship; even if he hits it, his Ship would only be a terminal Silver. When playing an Envoy engine, I like to play as few cards as possible before each Envoy, so that my opponent doesn't know how many actions I'll have when picking a card to discard. yuma didn't do this hiding technique, but it didn't matter much.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 01:03:44 pm by blueblimp »
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Re: IsoDom 5: Round 5 Results Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2012, 04:24:38 pm »
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@blueblimp: Game 3 had Ventures. I understand $5 is a popular price-point here, but those seem good, especially when greening hard and especially when Ghost Ship is on the board. Being so clogged is usually horrible, but if you have a Venture in hand, just throw those Dukes and Duchies on top and watch them get skipped because of the Venture hunting. I think the simulators might be able to tell us if Ventures are a worthwhile investment here.
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