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[Powerman]

Scout is often considered THE worst card in Dominion.  Indeed, it was ranked as the worst $4 card in Qvist's latest rankings, and on the main Dominion Strategy site, it was rated as the second worst $4 card by Theory.  Often the butt of dominion jokes, it is easy to simply see Scout on a board and resign yourself "To a 9-card board".  But is it really that bad?  Are there cases where even the lowly Scout shines? 

When Scout is Good

Case 1: Great Hall (and Nobles, Harem)
The dual type victory cards were what Scout was specifically designed for.  Three of these dual type cards are in Intrigue with Scout, while the other one (Island) is a card that you actively try to get out of your deck by setting aside.  What does this mean?  In intrigue heavy games, Scout is much more likely to make an impact.  The presence of dual type cards makes Scout more intriguing to say the least. 

Case 1A: Ironworks/ Great Hall
Ironworks/Scout/Great Hall is a well known 3 card combo, as pointed out by Theory.  Basically Ironworks is used to gain the Great Halls (getting +1 card/+1 action) and Scout is used to draw all the Great Halls (and Estates to boot!) into your hand.  It isn't super fast, and even gaining all 8 Great Halls will hardly win a game by itself, BUT using this as an entirely in turn operation (gaining all the cards you need from an Ironworks or two) and still being able to buy cards in your buy phase makes this a viable addition to your normal play.

Case 1B: Crossroads/ Great Hall
This is another 3 card combo where scout proves useful.  Crossroads works best when you have many victory cards in hand, especially when those victory cards are not complete duds.  Scout allows you to get more victory cards in hand, Crossroads gives you an extra card for each of the victory cards you get in your hand, and then Great Hall gives you a further extra card.  This can lead to ridiculously large hands, and if you have a way of gaining components quickly (say, Haggler) this can be a dominating strategy, especially because adding Provinces doesn't hurt this strategy.  On this board, we are faced with that exact setup!  Both of us recognize and go for it, but my opponent does better by picking up more Great Halls.

Case 2: Tunnel
Although it is easy to group Tunnel more with Great Hall than Estate, Tunnel technically isn't an action.  However, it still is a victory card you are likely to buy early, which means you have a higher chance of drawing more cards with your scout.  If only there was a card that liked big hands with tunnels in it...

Case 2A: Tunnel + Discard
Tunnel is bought early because if discarded it yields a gold.  This can either be done by say, an opponent's militia, but that is very unreliable.  It is often much easier to trigger the discard by yourself.  While the king of Tunnel combos (Vault) is simply too fast as is, a weaker discard that isn't reliable enough for Tunnel on its own would benefit from Scout -- Oasis, Hamlet, etc.  Here is a great game where both players use Hamlet / Tunnel / Scout.  Here's one where Scout is useful in a YW / Tunnel game.  And here is one where it is used in a draw engine: Scout / Tunnel / Cellar

Case 3: Silk Roads
Silk Road games encourage the buying of lots of victory cards.  While Scout is certainly not enough support alone for Silk Roads, it definitely helps handle all the green.  The problem is Scout and SR both cost 4 so they are competing, but an early Scout or two may be worth the delay in SR.

Case 4: Counter to Attacks
Scout does good as a defense mechanism against certain attacks.  These include Fortune Teller, Bureaucrat, Ghost Ship, Spy, and Scrying Pool.  But, the one attack that really gets stopped cold by Scout is Rabble.  Rabble has the potential to be the nastiest attack, as leaving 3 Victory cards for you to have in your next hand pretty much guarantees a dud.  However, with Scout you will draw all of the victory cards that are left on your deck (and spy the card remaining).  If you have something to take advantage of having the extra cards in your hand, like Warehouse, Cellar, or Vault, you can get a great hand, and the counter can be even better than Farming Village's.

Case 5: Order of Top of Deck is important
While half of Scout's benefit is putting green cards into your hand, the other half is being able to order your deck.  This normally isn't a huge deal because you will draw all 4 cards at the start of your next turn anyway, but if you have the ability to draw 1 more card this turn, choosing the best of the 4 can be huge. 

Case 5A: Baron / Tournament
This is only half of a combo.  Why?  Both of these cards need to be matched up with a certain victory card.  Scout is wonderful here if you have both Scout and Tournament / Baron in hand, as you will get a very good chance of matching up your action with its respective victory card.  The problem however, is that while you might pull the province into your hand, you might leave that matching tournament on top of your deck and ruin its matching up.  This is why it is very important to also have a cantrip in hand (even the Pearl Diver is sufficient) so if you play Scout, you can still draw the other half and make the combo this turn.

Case 5B: Scrying Pool / Alchemy in general(Thanks to chwhite)
More good partners to Scout are Vineyard  and Scrying Pool.  Both of those cards need non-terminal actions, Scrying Pool to increase draw power and Vineyard to pump up VP without increasing terminal clashes.  Scout could do absolutely nothing for you and still be of value with these two cards around.  However, he reordering and clearing is particularly useful with Pools: take green into your hand, set up a Treasure to discard, pick up Actions. Sweeping green into your hand helps with Vineyard, too, especially if you're relying on cantrips etc. and would be liable to choke on Vineyards as you green.

Here are a couple examples of Scout providing actual value to Pool (and other) decks:

Here it doesn't really ever sweep up green, but it does encheapen Peddler and improve Pool efficiency. 

Here both Nobles and Copper-specific trashing boost Scout as well. 

Here  the Scout almost always improved the next hand by sweeping a bit of green into the current one.  It's a fun contrast of styles, as Feast/Duke edges out Vineyard/Transmute.

Here, an odd case where Scout is used as support for Tactician/Vault.  Heumidin's Turn 17 is the best example of it in action.

Lastly, the main thing here is University gaining lots of cards (including Great Hall) and then getting points from Gardens and Scout becomes a good pile to gain from University later on.

Perhaps the best situation for Scout is not all-Intrigue games, but Intrigue/Alchemy games.  A lot of the potion cards make it less bad than usual.

So with all of these uses, why isn't Scout the best $4 card in Dominion?

When Scout is Bad

Case 1: Trashing
Obviously, a large majority of decks improve by at least eliminating the starting estates in some way.  However, not having victory cards kind of conflicts with Scout, as you will not be drawing any cards and will simply be reordering.  How bad is this?  Compare a Scout where you never draw a card to Cartographer (ignoring the potential for discard).  They're the same, but Scout draws 1 less, and costs 1 less.  Now compare Smithy to Moat.  1 card difference, $2 difference, and moat is a weak $2 and smithy is fairly strong at $4.  So... no victory cards makes Scout very bad, yes.

Case 2: Cursing
One of the biggest problems with Scout, is it doesn't grab curses off of your deck.  The point of Scout is to take the weak cards off your deck to prepare your next hand (while maybe improving this hand too!), but the worst cards in the game (curses) stay on top of your deck.  This means that you will have even less of a chance of grabbing your victory cards, and Scout becomes even worse.

Case 3: Hand Size Reducers (Not named Ghost Ship)
Militia cripples Scout.  Why?  Well, if you get Militia'ed with a Scout in hand (and you keep it) you will only have 2 cards in your hand left to use for other purposes.  This is the problem with Village, Pearl Diver, etc. as well, but it is magnified here because you are not even guaranteed to draw a card, and if you do it's a victory card so that won't help much here anyway.

Case 4: No Alternative Victory Cards
In a normal game (only E/D/P as victory cards), you are likely to only have your 3 estates for the early / middle portions of the game.  Then, somewhere around turn 10 (maybe earlier or later depending on the board) you start buying provinces, and by about turn 15 the game is basically over.  This means for roughly 2/3 of the game, you will be getting very, very little benefit (if any at all) from the Scout, and you almost always would have been better off with a Silver.  Expanding on this...

Case 4A: Any game where Provinces are the dominant (only) strategy
Which is most of the games.  In a province game where the player who gets the most provinces wins, the Scout is simply too slow and ineffective.  As much as the presence of Great Hall / Tunnel / Nobles help Scout, their absence hurts more.  So if you see no green kingdom cards, you are probably safe playing a "9 card kingdom".

Case 5: Lack of cantrips
Part of the problem with Scout (well most of it, actually) is that you are not guaranteed a card when you play it.  So if there are no Victory cards all you do is reorder, which isn't all that important because you can't draw them anyway.  Enter the cantrip.  While it's very little consolation for not drawing a card, at least if you get to choose which of the top 4 cards to draw with a cantrip, you can start a Village-Torturer chain, or you can put the Gold on top and get to $8 for a province.  Because if you have no draw, you can keep looking at the top 4 cards till oblivion and you won't be helped.

Conclusion
Is Scout the worst dominion card?  It's an endless debate, but Thief makes it hard to say it is.  There are certain niche situations where this card is nice, but it is not a game breaker.  Gainers / multiple buys make Scout much better, as you will not often want to spend your buy on this card.  Even in situation where Scout is good, it still is a weak card at best.  Few games have been won with the addition of scout, but many have been lost.  So if you don't have a plan for Scout, you are probably safer ignoring it!

Works with:

Great Hall, Nobles, Harem
Tunnel, Silk Road, Vineyards
Rabble, Fortune Teller
Ironworks
Scrying Pool

Conflicts with:

Fast games (JoaT, Masq)
Trashing
Cursers (especially Mountebank!)
Militia
Lack of Alt. VP

Note:  If anyone has more game logs of Scout being particularly good or bad, please comment with them.  Thanks!

[shark_bait]

I haven't even read it yet but I love that scout's finally getting some love!  Will read it later and probably post comments later as well.

[Graystripe77]

I had a recent game where I used Scout/Inn to cycle in a Duchy/Duke game. I started greening turn 5, and repeatedly bought Duchies for 2-3 turns, then an Inn or Scout or Silver. I won, couldn't have done it without Scout.

[Robz888]

I actually don't think Scout works very well with Crossroads, because Crossroads is so much better than Scout. I think the situation where you want a Scout instead of another Crossroads are going to be super, super rare.

In theory, I get that you would want Scout to pull the Green cards into your hand and then play Crossroads to profit from it. But in practice, I probably just want a bunch of Crossroads, and the Green cards themselves.

As Donald once put it, Scout makes much more sense if it's considered in its original game and no other. With just Intrigue--where many of the cards are a touch underpowered, compared to other sets--you can do the Ironworks/Great Hall/Scout thing. But that just won't get you very far most of the time, and Crossroads does it better, more cheaply.

[blueblimp]

I don't know much about Dominion. Let's see what councilroom's supply_win thinks.

Case-by-case evaluation

Case 1: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=great%20hall%2Cnobles%2Charem%2Cisland&nested=true&unconditional=true. Island makes Scout worse. (Makes sense, since it is often used to remove green from your deck.) Even conditioned on two of these dual-type cards, the best win-rate given any gain (hereafter WGAG) possible is 0.99 +/- 0.02, with GH+Nobles.

Case 1A: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=ironworks%2Cgreat%20hall&nested=true&unconditional=true. With both Ironworks and Great Hall present, Scout manages a WGAG of 1.01 +/ 0.02.

Case 1B: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=crossroads%2Cgreat%20hall&nested=true&unconditional=true. With both Crossroads and Great Hall, Scout still has only a WGAG of 0.99 +/- 0.03.

Case 2/2A: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=tunnel%2Cvault&nested=true&unconditional=true. With Tunnel present, WGAG is only 0.90 +/- 0.01. Having both Tunnel and Vault together has a WGAG of 0.88 +/- 0.05, ranking lower than unconditioned WGAG.

Case 3: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=silk%20road&nested=true&unconditional=true. WGAG decreases to 0.88 +/- 0.01 when Silk Road is present.

Case 4: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=rabble%2Cfortune%20teller%2Cbureaucrat%2Cghost%20ship%2Cspy%2Cscrying%20pool&nested=false&unconditional=true. The best possible WGAG singly-conditioned on one of these attacks is Ghost Ship, at 0.91 +/- 0.01.

Other interactions

http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=true&nested=false&unconditional=false: when singly-conditioning, Scout never has a WGAG better than 0.94 +/- 0.01.

Picking out the best cards from single-conditioning, then doubly-conditioning, we can find some interactions: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=great%20hall%2Cnobles%2Cfairgrounds%2Cvineyard%2Cpirate%20ship%2Charem%2Cworker's%20village%2Cuniversity%2Ctreasure%20map%2Cquarry%2Cpossession%2Cbaron%2Cironworks&nested=true&unconditional=true. Scout gets a WGAG of at least 1 from Vineyard/University; Ironworks/Great Hall; Ironworks/Vineyard. Although it only has a WGAG of 1.01 +/- 0.03 when conditioned on both Vineyard and University, it has a solid win-rate per gain of 1.14 +/- 0.02.

Conclusions

Of the combos listed in the article, Scout/Ironworks/Great Hall is the only one supported by supply_win data. Scout/Vineyard/University and Scout/Vineyard/Ironworks are also recommended by supply_win.

[lespeutere]

In theory, I get that you would want Scout to pull the Green cards into your hand and then play Crossroads to profit from it. But in practice, I probably just want a bunch of Crossroads, and the Green cards themselves.

+ in practice you'll often have scout without Xroads, draw 3 green cards from your next hand and find a naked Xroads in this hand then.
I'm not with your statement on tunnels that you'd want them early. I favour getting vault first, cause tunnels already make it harder to get to 5$.
Here is a game with dukes and islands where i add a scout.
One thing to add, I think, is wishing well, which can really profit from the deck inspection. But then you'll normally want +buy (which may be true for most scout games: if you want it, you don't want to waste your only buy on it, this is a pretty important point, I think: it may be a nice addition in some games, but not more than that).

[Powerman]

I don't know much about Dominion. Let's see what councilroom's supply_win thinks.

Case-by-case evaluation

Case 1: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=great%20hall%2Cnobles%2Charem%2Cisland&nested=true&unconditional=true. Island makes Scout worse. (Makes sense, since it is often used to remove green from your deck.) Even conditioned on two of these dual-type cards, the best win-rate given any gain (hereafter WGAG) possible is 0.99 +/- 0.02, with GH+Nobles.

Case 1A: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=ironworks%2Cgreat%20hall&nested=true&unconditional=true. With both Ironworks and Great Hall present, Scout manages a WGAG of 1.01 +/ 0.02.

Case 1B: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=crossroads%2Cgreat%20hall&nested=true&unconditional=true. With both Crossroads and Great Hall, Scout still has only a WGAG of 0.99 +/- 0.03.

Case 2/2A: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=tunnel%2Cvault&nested=true&unconditional=true. With Tunnel present, WGAG is only 0.90 +/- 0.01. Having both Tunnel and Vault together has a WGAG of 0.88 +/- 0.05, ranking lower than unconditioned WGAG.

Case 3: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=silk%20road&nested=true&unconditional=true. WGAG decreases to 0.88 +/- 0.01 when Silk Road is present.

Case 4: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=rabble%2Cfortune%20teller%2Cbureaucrat%2Cghost%20ship%2Cspy%2Cscrying%20pool&nested=false&unconditional=true. The best possible WGAG singly-conditioned on one of these attacks is Ghost Ship, at 0.91 +/- 0.01.

Other interactions

http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=true&nested=false&unconditional=false: when singly-conditioning, Scout never has a WGAG better than 0.94 +/- 0.01.

Picking out the best cards from single-conditioning, then doubly-conditioning, we can find some interactions: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=great%20hall%2Cnobles%2Cfairgrounds%2Cvineyard%2Cpirate%20ship%2Charem%2Cworker's%20village%2Cuniversity%2Ctreasure%20map%2Cquarry%2Cpossession%2Cbaron%2Cironworks&nested=true&unconditional=true. Scout gets a WGAG of at least 1 from Vineyard/University; Ironworks/Great Hall; Ironworks/Vineyard. Although it only has a WGAG of 1.01 +/- 0.03 when conditioned on both Vineyard and University, it has a solid win-rate per gain of 1.14 +/- 0.02.

Conclusions

Of the combos listed in the article, Scout/Ironworks/Great Hall is the only one supported by supply_win data. Scout/Vineyard/University and Scout/Vineyard/Ironworks are also recommended by supply_win.

I understand that the stats are terrible for Scout, and probably every combo.  This doesn't surprise me, as many players simply ignore Scout and think "it's awful" even if isn't.  I feel like new players buy scout when it isn't good to "try it out" which hurts the stats.  I'd be more interested in A) Simulator data or B) Game logs.

[HiveMindEmulator]

You left out any discussion about the re-ordering of cards on top of your deck, which actually seems to the more likely use of Scout. The thing is, in early greening strategies, you don't have time to buy Scout, but you might have time to grab one if you're building some huge Scrying Pool engine or something. Then you just use Scout for the ability to sort the top of your deck.

Do you have any concrete reason to believe Scout is good with Tunnel, like simulations or game logs? I have no idea what would be a good time to buy it. If you're buying Tunnels and Scouts early, you're not buying enough economy, and when it gets later, you'd probably just rather have more Tunnels for the points... Specifically, can you make a bot using Scout that beats standard Tunnel/Vault?

Code: [Select]

<player name="Tunnel/Vault"
 author="HME"
 description="">
 <type name="Competitive"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Tunnel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Vault">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Vault"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Vault"/>
   <buy name="Tunnel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Vault"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
 

[Powerman]

You left out any discussion about the re-ordering of cards on top of your deck, which actually seems to the more likely use of Scout. The thing is, in early greening strategies, you don't have time to buy Scout, but you might have time to grab one if you're building some huge Scrying Pool engine or something. Then you just use Scout for the ability to sort the top of your deck.

Do you have any concrete reason to believe Scout is good with Tunnel, like simulations or game logs? I have no idea what would be a good time to buy it. If you're buying Tunnels and Scouts early, you're not buying enough economy, and when it gets later, you'd probably just rather have more Tunnels for the points... Specifically, can you make a bot using Scout that beats standard Tunnel/Vault?

Code: [Select]

<player name="Tunnel/Vault"
 author="HME"
 description="">
 <type name="Competitive"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Tunnel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Vault">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Vault"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Vault"/>
   <buy name="Tunnel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Vault"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
 

Can I make a bot for it?  No, absolutely not -- Whenever I try and use the simulator... I end up very confused.  And it would seem to help a SP deck if for no other reason than being a non-terminal action card.

[blueblimp]

I don't know much about Dominion. Let's see what councilroom's supply_win thinks.

Case-by-case evaluation

Case 1: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=great%20hall%2Cnobles%2Charem%2Cisland&nested=true&unconditional=true. Island makes Scout worse. (Makes sense, since it is often used to remove green from your deck.) Even conditioned on two of these dual-type cards, the best win-rate given any gain (hereafter WGAG) possible is 0.99 +/- 0.02, with GH+Nobles.

Case 1A: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=ironworks%2Cgreat%20hall&nested=true&unconditional=true. With both Ironworks and Great Hall present, Scout manages a WGAG of 1.01 +/ 0.02.

Case 1B: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=crossroads%2Cgreat%20hall&nested=true&unconditional=true. With both Crossroads and Great Hall, Scout still has only a WGAG of 0.99 +/- 0.03.

Case 2/2A: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=tunnel%2Cvault&nested=true&unconditional=true. With Tunnel present, WGAG is only 0.90 +/- 0.01. Having both Tunnel and Vault together has a WGAG of 0.88 +/- 0.05, ranking lower than unconditioned WGAG.

Case 3: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=silk%20road&nested=true&unconditional=true. WGAG decreases to 0.88 +/- 0.01 when Silk Road is present.

Case 4: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=rabble%2Cfortune%20teller%2Cbureaucrat%2Cghost%20ship%2Cspy%2Cscrying%20pool&nested=false&unconditional=true. The best possible WGAG singly-conditioned on one of these attacks is Ghost Ship, at 0.91 +/- 0.01.

Other interactions

http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=true&nested=false&unconditional=false: when singly-conditioning, Scout never has a WGAG better than 0.94 +/- 0.01.

Picking out the best cards from single-conditioning, then doubly-conditioning, we can find some interactions: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=great%20hall%2Cnobles%2Cfairgrounds%2Cvineyard%2Cpirate%20ship%2Charem%2Cworker's%20village%2Cuniversity%2Ctreasure%20map%2Cquarry%2Cpossession%2Cbaron%2Cironworks&nested=true&unconditional=true. Scout gets a WGAG of at least 1 from Vineyard/University; Ironworks/Great Hall; Ironworks/Vineyard. Although it only has a WGAG of 1.01 +/- 0.03 when conditioned on both Vineyard and University, it has a solid win-rate per gain of 1.14 +/- 0.02.

Conclusions

Of the combos listed in the article, Scout/Ironworks/Great Hall is the only one supported by supply_win data. Scout/Vineyard/University and Scout/Vineyard/Ironworks are also recommended by supply_win.

I understand that the stats are terrible for Scout, and probably every combo.  This doesn't surprise me, as many players simply ignore Scout and think "it's awful" even if isn't.  I feel like new players buy scout when it isn't good to "try it out" which hurts the stats.  I'd be more interested in A) Simulator data or B) Game logs.

I disagree with 'many players simply ignore Scout and think "it's awful" even if it isn't'. More common is to think: this is a good board for Scout, then you buy it, and it's still bad.

[chwhite]

So, I'm glad to see that someone is trying to give Scout some love.  I'm not glad to see that Scout's best situation is ignored.  There is a card, not mentioned once in this article, which Scout is actually very decent support for, and which I am most likely to pick one up with.  And any article that tries to explain why Scout is not the worst card around (it's not!  It is merely fourth-worst) needs to talk about this synergy.

That card is Scrying Pool.

So, my favorite partners to Scout are not Great Hall, or Crossroads, or anything like that.  They are, IMO, Vineyard (which has already been mentioned above) and Scrying Pool.  Here's why:

* both of those cards need non-terminal actions, Scrying Pool to increase draw power and Vineyard to pump up VP without increasing terminal clashes.  Scout could do absolutely nothing for you and still be of value with these two cards around.
* The reordering and clearing is particularly useful with Pools: take green into your hand, set up a Treasure to discard, pick up Actions.
* Sweeping green into your hand helps with Vineyard, too, especially if you're relying on cantrips etc. and would be liable to choke on Vineyards as you green.

Here are a couple examples of Scout providing actual value to Pool (and other) decks:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110614-105235-db2b72f7.html : it doesn't really ever sweep up green, but it does encheapen Peddler and improve Pool efficiency.  Interestingly, the Tactician buy was a complete waste as I always preferred to just play Witch or Salvager, and I Salvage it after a while.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110904-225805-1a8943b9.html : Obviously Nobles, and Copper-specific trashing, both boost Scout here as well.  RisingJaguar and I would probably both do the same thing without Scout around, but it was pretty clearly a good buy when you happened to only have $4 or $5 here.  (Didn't RisingJaguar admit he used to buy Scout 60 percent of the time?  I'd love to hear him chime in here.)

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120612-133532-e5582d6b.html : Okay, actually I lost this one.  But the Scout pretty much always improved my next hand by sweeping a bit of green into the current one.  It's a fun contrast of styles, as Feast/Duke edges out Vineyard/Transmute.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120514-140331-5890997b.html : An odd case where Scout is used as support for Tactician/Vault.  Heumidin's Turn 17 is the best example of it in action.

[WheresMyElephant]

* both of those cards need non-terminal actions, Scrying Pool to increase draw power and Vineyard to pump up VP without increasing terminal clashes.  Scout could do absolutely nothing for you and still be of value with these two cards around.

I understand if you're exaggerating a little for effect, and Scout has actual benefits here. But if an Action literally "does nothing for you," it only hurts Scrying Pool. Outside of TfB, "increasing SP's draw power" is meaningless when it just means you're drawing one extra card and it's a useless one. But you may occasionally run into the situation where the top cards of your deck are Scout, then Copper, then your good Actions. If that Scout weren't there your SP could discard the Copper and get to the good stuff, but now you can't.

[shMerker]

I like the thematic harmony of scout and tactician's synergy.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Can I make a bot for it?  No, absolutely not -- Whenever I try and use the simulator... I end up very confused.  And it would seem to help a SP deck if for no other reason than being a non-terminal action card.

1. If you can't make a bot, can you at least explain when in a Tunnel/Vault game you will buy a Scout. You need to be buying things that give money early, then Vaults and Tunnels in the mid-game, then Victory cards. I don't really see where you can squeeze in a Scout. The thing is that Scout is not terrible to have (though often it is bad), but there are rarely any situations where you actually want to buy it over all the alternatives.

2. For Scrying Pool, it's not just that it's non-terminal. It also gives a useful benefit with the ability to sort cards. Potentially it could also be useful in other engines, in the same way, though probably less often. The thing I'm pointing out is not necessarily this specific "combo", but that the only place in the article you even mention the second half of the ability of Scout is in a negative way in the very last point of "When Scout is Bad".

[Jfrisch]

But is it really that bad?

yes, it really is that bad.

Are there cases where even the lowly Scout shines? 

no, there are  very, very infrequent edge cases where it is the right buy though

When Scout is Good

basically never, even in the cases you note its still, the vast majority of the time, not even worth it.

The problem with scout is that, even if your deck is 25% green, it's probably still an actively bad card for your deck. In the sorts of alt-vp/vp heavy strategies that, ideally, scout would shine it, it's still basically never going to get you more than 1 and a half cards, and very infrequently even that. Furthermore, if you are playing that green a deck, there is almost certainly a green card you want more than scout. Sure ironworks/greathall/scout might be marginally okay if nothing else is on the board. But a card whose ideal three card combo's are still really meh is not a card that I want. For comparison, compare scout to caravan and apothecary. Note that apothecary increases your likelihood of getting cards WITH value into your hand. It comes with a free can-trip, and you start with 7 of the findable cards, a number of green cards you are unlikely to get until late game. Even with this apothecary isn't an ungodly strong card because of the 2p cost. Also compare to caravan, another 4 cost cantrip which (ideally) increases hand size. Note that you would need a 50% green deck for scout to gain as many cards as caravan. Even in the situations where scout does gain a lot of cards, they tend to be weak cards, victory cards, even on a board with kingdom victory cards, tend to be weaker than your non-victory cards.

[chwhite]

* both of those cards need non-terminal actions, Scrying Pool to increase draw power and Vineyard to pump up VP without increasing terminal clashes.  Scout could do absolutely nothing for you and still be of value with these two cards around.

I understand if you're exaggerating a little for effect, and Scout has actual benefits here. But if an Action literally "does nothing for you," it only hurts Scrying Pool. Outside of TfB, "increasing SP's draw power" is meaningless when it just means you're drawing one extra card and it's a useless one. But you may occasionally run into the situation where the top cards of your deck are Scout, then Copper, then your good Actions. If that Scout weren't there your SP could discard the Copper and get to the good stuff, but now you can't.

Yeah, I am exaggerating for effect there.  Obviously if it did literally nothing but +1 Action that would not be a good buy.

My main point is that the reorder effect of Scout is probably most useful in Scrying Pool decks.  Most people first think of using it with Wishing Well, which is a seductive nombo because you're playing two cards to draw two cards.  But you can use the look-ahead and reordering to draw more with Scrying Pool, which is not really the case with most other possible synergies.

I could imagine a Scout being useful in Apothecary decks, too, sort of half-filling the role that Native Village does in the NV/Apothecary combo.  I don't know that I've ever actually used it that way, but it definitely strikes me as a plausible use, and I'm going to be on the lookout for it next time those two cards are in the setup.  (Bonus: Apothecary/Wishing Well is actually a useful combo because the Apothecary draws you a card; if I'm running an Apothecary/WW engine then I could definitely imagine adding Scout in the right circumstances.  But now we're getting into really unlikely setups.)

Oh, hey, here's another game where Scout was useful:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120425-175739-ebbcc1da.html

Basically the main thing here is University gaining lots of cards (including Great Hall) and then getting points from Gardens, Scout becomes a good pile to gain from University later on.

I'm starting to become more and more convinced that the best situation for Scout is not all-Intrigue games, but Intrigue/Alchemy games.  A lot of the potion cards make it less bad than usual.

[shark_bait]

I would say that Gainer's in general make scout better.  In an Engine, you aren't going to buy down from a $5 engine cog to get Scout which is only marginally helpful.  Say however that part of your engine has $3 or $4 cantrips that are a part of it and either IW or WS.  At some point, you can skip pick up a Scout without missing out on that critical expensive engine piece.  Haggler is also good in that you can buy a more expensive card, and then get scout as your consolation prize to go with it.

[verikt]

Apparently I've lost almost every game I played with scout. But here's a nice one
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120706-095210-5b1c29e1.html
So's this
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120122-012959-84210441.html
or this
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111226-120648-ecca006c.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111205-010039-4b8b6a9e.html

[Powerman]

@chwhite - I really like your writing on it with Scrying Pool / Vineyards, I'll add in some stuff about that tomorrow (probably borrowing your good example games).

@HiveMindEmulator - I think you may be right, that Tunnel / Vault is simply too fast as is.  I think that maybe a turn 5/6 Scout (if you hit exactly 4) would do slightly better than straight Tunnel / Vault, but perhaps not.  Maybe a weaker discard that isn't reliable enough for Tunnel on its own would benefit more.  I'm thinking Oasis, Hamlet, etc.  Here is a great game where both players use Hamlet / Tunnel / Scout.  Here's one where Scout is useful in a YW / Tunnel game.  And here is one where it is used in a draw engine: Scout / Tunnel / Cellar

[chwhite]

Also, as much as I'm willing to defend Scout against the charge it's the worst card in Dominion... it's still pretty horrible, even in most situations where one would expect it to be favorable.

See for example http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2717.0 , where Ironworks/Great Hall/Scout gets beaten pretty soundly by a pretty BM-esque Trading Post deck.

Pretty much any praise stronger than "it's not quite as consistently damaging to your deck as a couple particularly horrible terminals" is probably unwarranted.

[LastFootnote]

It's a bit off-topic, but reading through this article made me suspect that I might buy Scout a lot more if it pulled Curses into my hand as well as Victory cards. In a cursing game, Scout would move from a severe liability to an asset. That might be enough of a boost to pull it out of the Terrible-Card zone.

[Powerman]

It's a bit off-topic, but reading through this article made me suspect that I might buy Scout a lot more if it pulled Curses into my hand as well as Victory cards. In a cursing game, Scout would move from a severe liability to an asset. That might be enough of a boost to pull it out of the Terrible-Card zone.

Yeah, I feel as if Scout let you look at 5 cards instead of 4 and got victory and curses it would be much much better and useful without being game breaking at all.  Oh well.

[Kirian]

And yet, most people would probably agree it's still better than Transmute...

[HiveMindEmulator]

And yet, most people would probably agree it's still better than Transmute...

I wouldn't. Transmute has a few uses where it's really important. Scout is on the rare occasion kind of ok...

[Eevee]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/26/game-20120726-162822-9148952f.html
Here is a game where scout actually could have been a power card. After turn 10, my opponent (who had a 27-9 point lead, no alternative vp) was basicly looking at having 3-5 victory cards on top of his deck at the start of almost every turn he took. Scout was in the supply (my opponent got one), but given he needs to have it in his hand at the start of his turn, I suspect he would have needed more than just the one to reliably clean the green and actually have a chance at buying enough VP to clinch it. Oh, and yay for how ridiculously awesome and vital bureaucrat was for this engine!

So, could scout actually work as a decent counter to rabble and bureaucrat?

[Robz888]

And yet, most people would probably agree it's still better than Transmute...

I don't agree, although I think it's a close contest between the two, and Thief, and Adventurer.

Transmute gets the nod ahead of Scout for me because of the basic case where you get Potion because want Familiar of Alchemist or something, and you don't draw Potion with enough treasure to buy these things. And there are a few exceedingly edge cases where Transmute can be effective for you, more often than Scout.

FWIW I agree that Scout's best use is with Scrying Pool or Vineyards. But that's all, really.

99% of the time, a Scout-inclusive engine is either too weak to win, or strong enough to win without Scout.

[Jfrisch]

adventurer is much, much better than scout. Adventurer is merely over-priced, most of the time, scout is actively bad for your deck.

[chwhite]

And yet, most people would probably agree it's still better than Transmute...

I don't agree, although I think it's a close contest between the two, and Thief, and Adventurer.

Transmute gets the nod ahead of Scout for me because of the basic case where you get Potion because want Familiar of Alchemist or something, and you don't draw Potion with enough treasure to buy these things. And there are a few exceedingly edge cases where Transmute can be effective for you, more often than Scout.

FWIW I agree that Scout's best use is with Scrying Pool or Vineyards. But that's all, really.

99% of the time, a Scout-inclusive engine is either too weak to win, or strong enough to win without Scout.

Yeah, I'd strongly disagree that Transmute is worse than Scout.  Sue, you buy Transmute less often (in my case not much less often at all) because it's a terminal with an awkward cost, but it can be good and even sometimes great- most commonly with Familiar and Vineyards.  Scout is never great; it's a marginal buy and a supporting player even in the most favorable of circumstances.

FWIW I think Thief is the clear worst, with Scout, Adventurer, and Counting House battling it out for #2.  I'm not sure Transmute is even in my bottom ten, the dregs of the $4 and $5 cards are worse in my mind, and PStone is probably better but just barely.  (None of the $2s and $3s are bottom 10 material.)

[clb]

I would like to see a list, similar to what Qvist did, of what everyone things is the rank of the cards, irrespective of price. Maybe that is too much work, so just everyone's top 10 (excluding things like colony, province) and bottom 10? Just an idle thought; I suspect it won't happen just now. I might bring it back up once we have settled down after Dark Ages but before we are salivating too heavily over Guilds.
Are the horrible $4s and $5s worse than all of the $2s and $3s simply because they are $4 and $5 (that is, if they also cost $2 or $3 they wouldn't be any better, but you wouldn't mind as much)?

[chwhite]

Are the horrible $4s and $5s worse than all of the $2s and $3s simply because they are $4 and $5 (that is, if they also cost $2 or $3 they wouldn't be any better, but you wouldn't mind as much)?

The bad $4s are cards which have narrow, marginal uses and which are actively bad for your deck upwards of 80 percent of the time.  Cards like Thief and Scout and Pirate Ship (let's assume 2p or 3p for the moment) and Talisman would be bottom-of-the-barrel cards at any price, and are generally as expensive as they are to guard against opening two of them.  (Scout/Scout would utterly break the game if it was allowed, obviously.)

The bad $5s are mostly narrow cards, too, but they tend to be less narrow, or more powerful, and also you have to remember that the gap between $4 and $5 is larger than any gap between lower price levels.  At this level, the cost matters, and as a general rule they'd seem (and be) a lot better if their effects were attached to cheaper cards: compare Explorer with JoaT and Bureaucrat, for instance.  JoaT is probably still a better card than a $4 Explorer because of attacks, but not by all that much.  And a $5 Explorer is worse than B-crat, but a $4 Explorer would completely outclass it.

As for $6... the cost is obviously the main issue.  Adventurer can be a good thing to have for sure in the right decks.  The problem is that it always has to compete with Gold, and it wins that comparison so, so rarely.

[Adrienaline]

Again, some of the key points missed?

Scout works well when it collides with a few other action cards as well. Most obviously Vault/Secret Chamber/Tactitian/Crossroads, but less obviously Baron/Explorer/Tournament. I have heard the comment made on other boards discussing Scout that replacing the fourth tournament with a scout may be good play. The interactions with Baron and Explorer may be more hypothetical, and less useful in practice, mind, though I'd honestly say buying one, and just not playing it if they don't collide may not be a bad idea.

On the other hand, to say Scout actually makes your deck worse is a huge call. At the worst, your better cards miss the next reshuffle because you used it with less than 3 cards in your deck and they are all gold. Could easily say the same thing about Cartographer/Council Room, and no one says you have to play the Scout each time. It gives less green cards in your next hand. There are usually better things you could be doing, but this doesn't make your deck worse, does it?

[HiveMindEmulator]

On the other hand, to say Scout actually makes your deck worse is a huge call. At the worst, your better cards miss the next reshuffle because you used it with less than 3 cards in your deck and they are all gold. Could easily say the same thing about Cartographer/Council Room, and no one says you have to play the Scout each time. It gives less green cards in your next hand. There are usually better things you could be doing, but this doesn't make your deck worse, does it?

You also don't have to play Curse every time you draw it, but most people would agree that it usually makes your deck worse. It's a card that takes up space while often providing little-to-no benefit.

[eHalcyon]

Again, some of the key points missed?

Scout works well when it collides with a few other action cards as well. Most obviously Vault/Secret Chamber/Tactitian/Crossroads, but less obviously Baron/Explorer/Tournament. I have heard the comment made on other boards discussing Scout that replacing the fourth tournament with a scout may be good play. The interactions with Baron and Explorer may be more hypothetical, and less useful in practice, mind, though I'd honestly say buying one, and just not playing it if they don't collide may not be a bad idea.

On the other hand, to say Scout actually makes your deck worse is a huge call. At the worst, your better cards miss the next reshuffle because you used it with less than 3 cards in your deck and they are all gold. Could easily say the same thing about Cartographer/Council Room, and no one says you have to play the Scout each time. It gives less green cards in your next hand. There are usually better things you could be doing, but this doesn't make your deck worse, does it?

Scout+Tournament can be hurtful just as often as it is helpful.  Sure, sometimes you can pull in a Province to match your tournament.  But sometimes you might pull a Province into a hand without Tournament, when it would have matched up in the next hand.  The easy solution is to not play Scout in those cases, but then it's just an expensive Curse (as pointed out by HME above).

[clb]

Are the horrible $4s and $5s worse than all of the $2s and $3s simply because they are $4 and $5 (that is, if they also cost $2 or $3 they wouldn't be any better, but you wouldn't mind as much)?

The bad $4s are cards which have narrow, marginal uses and which are actively bad for your deck upwards of 80 percent of the time.  Cards like Thief and Scout and Pirate Ship (let's assume 2p or 3p for the moment) and Talisman would be bottom-of-the-barrel cards at any price, and are generally as expensive as they are to guard against opening two of them.  (Scout/Scout would utterly break the game if it was allowed, obviously.)

Could you expound on this point a bit? If Scout cost 3, and I open Scout/Scout - how does that break the game? Is it because of the near-guarantee of a $5 hand? Silver/Silver is the same, with a chance of $6. Maybe I am thinking about it narrowly, but I am missing the obvious way in which a double-Scout opening breaks the game.
Thanks for the explanation - everything else you said clicked well.

[eHalcyon]

Are the horrible $4s and $5s worse than all of the $2s and $3s simply because they are $4 and $5 (that is, if they also cost $2 or $3 they wouldn't be any better, but you wouldn't mind as much)?

The bad $4s are cards which have narrow, marginal uses and which are actively bad for your deck upwards of 80 percent of the time.  Cards like Thief and Scout and Pirate Ship (let's assume 2p or 3p for the moment) and Talisman would be bottom-of-the-barrel cards at any price, and are generally as expensive as they are to guard against opening two of them.  (Scout/Scout would utterly break the game if it was allowed, obviously.)

Could you expound on this point a bit? If Scout cost 3, and I open Scout/Scout - how does that break the game? Is it because of the near-guarantee of a $5 hand? Silver/Silver is the same, with a chance of $6. Maybe I am thinking about it narrowly, but I am missing the obvious way in which a double-Scout opening breaks the game.
Thanks for the explanation - everything else you said clicked well.

My guess:

Player A opens double-Scout.
Player B guaranteed win.

[clb]

Are the horrible $4s and $5s worse than all of the $2s and $3s simply because they are $4 and $5 (that is, if they also cost $2 or $3 they wouldn't be any better, but you wouldn't mind as much)?

The bad $4s are cards which have narrow, marginal uses and which are actively bad for your deck upwards of 80 percent of the time.  Cards like Thief and Scout and Pirate Ship (let's assume 2p or 3p for the moment) and Talisman would be bottom-of-the-barrel cards at any price, and are generally as expensive as they are to guard against opening two of them.  (Scout/Scout would utterly break the game if it was allowed, obviously.)

Could you expound on this point a bit? If Scout cost 3, and I open Scout/Scout - how does that break the game? Is it because of the near-guarantee of a $5 hand? Silver/Silver is the same, with a chance of $6. Maybe I am thinking about it narrowly, but I am missing the obvious way in which a double-Scout opening breaks the game.
Thanks for the explanation - everything else you said clicked well.

My guess:

Player A opens double-Scout.
Player B guaranteed win.

lol! Fair enough - but is it worse than opening Estate-Estate? Or Duchy-Estate on a 5/2?

[eHalcyon]

Are the horrible $4s and $5s worse than all of the $2s and $3s simply because they are $4 and $5 (that is, if they also cost $2 or $3 they wouldn't be any better, but you wouldn't mind as much)?

The bad $4s are cards which have narrow, marginal uses and which are actively bad for your deck upwards of 80 percent of the time.  Cards like Thief and Scout and Pirate Ship (let's assume 2p or 3p for the moment) and Talisman would be bottom-of-the-barrel cards at any price, and are generally as expensive as they are to guard against opening two of them.  (Scout/Scout would utterly break the game if it was allowed, obviously.)

Could you expound on this point a bit? If Scout cost 3, and I open Scout/Scout - how does that break the game? Is it because of the near-guarantee of a $5 hand? Silver/Silver is the same, with a chance of $6. Maybe I am thinking about it narrowly, but I am missing the obvious way in which a double-Scout opening breaks the game.
Thanks for the explanation - everything else you said clicked well.

My guess:

Player A opens double-Scout.
Player B guaranteed win.

lol! Fair enough - but is it worse than opening Estate-Estate? Or Duchy-Estate on a 5/2?

At least you have some VP with those?

Or maybe newbies don't fall for that trap as they might for a shiny action card like Scout, that handsome devil.

[ftl]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/joke

[eHalcyon]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/joke

As was my response!

[clb]

Or maybe newbies don't fall for that trap as they might for a shiny action card like Scout, that handsome devil.

I don't see a point in arguing your taste in men, but I can say that, at the least, Scout is always good for a laugh.
I think Baron might be jealous of the attentions Scout is getting here. (I don't know how to link to a discrete comment in a thread, but see reply #422 and #423 of the awesome thread. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1204.422)

[Kahryl]

My Dominion circle overbought Baron almost all the time, mainly because his picture is all "look, we both know you're gonna buy me, so let's skip the foreplay"

[Powerman]

Ok edited the article quite a bit.  Hopefully it reads better now.

[dghunter79]

99% of the time, a Scout-inclusive engine is either too weak to win, or strong enough to win without Scout.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120713-195219-c6ef8676.html

I posted it before, but here'e the only game I've seen where Scout was a must-buy.  Not only did it improve your deck, the improvement was of an order of magnitude.  Scrying Pool and Vineyard were part of it.

Forge, Great Hall, Nomad Camp, Potion, Scout, Scrying Pool, Silk Road, Trade Route, Treasure Map, Vineyard, and Witch
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120713-195219-c6ef8676.html

Silk Road, 2 Coppers, and 2 Scouts was a you'll-draw-your-deck type hand.

[Powerman]

I don't know much about Dominion. Let's see what councilroom's supply_win thinks.

Case-by-case evaluation

Case 1: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=great%20hall%2Cnobles%2Charem%2Cisland&nested=true&unconditional=true. Island makes Scout worse. (Makes sense, since it is often used to remove green from your deck.) Even conditioned on two of these dual-type cards, the best win-rate given any gain (hereafter WGAG) possible is 0.99 +/- 0.02, with GH+Nobles.

Case 1A: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=ironworks%2Cgreat%20hall&nested=true&unconditional=true. With both Ironworks and Great Hall present, Scout manages a WGAG of 1.01 +/ 0.02.

Case 1B: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=crossroads%2Cgreat%20hall&nested=true&unconditional=true. With both Crossroads and Great Hall, Scout still has only a WGAG of 0.99 +/- 0.03.

Case 2/2A: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=tunnel%2Cvault&nested=true&unconditional=true. With Tunnel present, WGAG is only 0.90 +/- 0.01. Having both Tunnel and Vault together has a WGAG of 0.88 +/- 0.05, ranking lower than unconditioned WGAG.

Case 3: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=silk%20road&nested=true&unconditional=true. WGAG decreases to 0.88 +/- 0.01 when Silk Road is present.

Case 4: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=rabble%2Cfortune%20teller%2Cbureaucrat%2Cghost%20ship%2Cspy%2Cscrying%20pool&nested=false&unconditional=true. The best possible WGAG singly-conditioned on one of these attacks is Ghost Ship, at 0.91 +/- 0.01.

Other interactions

http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=true&nested=false&unconditional=false: when singly-conditioning, Scout never has a WGAG better than 0.94 +/- 0.01.

Picking out the best cards from single-conditioning, then doubly-conditioning, we can find some interactions: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=great%20hall%2Cnobles%2Cfairgrounds%2Cvineyard%2Cpirate%20ship%2Charem%2Cworker's%20village%2Cuniversity%2Ctreasure%20map%2Cquarry%2Cpossession%2Cbaron%2Cironworks&nested=true&unconditional=true. Scout gets a WGAG of at least 1 from Vineyard/University; Ironworks/Great Hall; Ironworks/Vineyard. Although it only has a WGAG of 1.01 +/- 0.03 when conditioned on both Vineyard and University, it has a solid win-rate per gain of 1.14 +/- 0.02.

Conclusions

Of the combos listed in the article, Scout/Ironworks/Great Hall is the only one supported by supply_win data. Scout/Vineyard/University and Scout/Vineyard/Ironworks are also recommended by supply_win.

I understand that the stats are terrible for Scout, and probably every combo.  This doesn't surprise me, as many players simply ignore Scout and think "it's awful" even if isn't.  I feel like new players buy scout when it isn't good to "try it out" which hurts the stats.  I'd be more interested in A) Simulator data or B) Game logs.

Sort by delta quality.  (I should make the sorting option a url param).

The per gain on vineyards baseline is really high.  Adding haggler makes it a bit worse.

Actually reading it right, a LOT of those are positive by statistics.

[blueblimp]

I don't know much about Dominion. Let's see what councilroom's supply_win thinks.

Case-by-case evaluation

Case 1: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=great%20hall%2Cnobles%2Charem%2Cisland&nested=true&unconditional=true. Island makes Scout worse. (Makes sense, since it is often used to remove green from your deck.) Even conditioned on two of these dual-type cards, the best win-rate given any gain (hereafter WGAG) possible is 0.99 +/- 0.02, with GH+Nobles.

Case 1A: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=ironworks%2Cgreat%20hall&nested=true&unconditional=true. With both Ironworks and Great Hall present, Scout manages a WGAG of 1.01 +/ 0.02.

Case 1B: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=crossroads%2Cgreat%20hall&nested=true&unconditional=true. With both Crossroads and Great Hall, Scout still has only a WGAG of 0.99 +/- 0.03.

Case 2/2A: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=tunnel%2Cvault&nested=true&unconditional=true. With Tunnel present, WGAG is only 0.90 +/- 0.01. Having both Tunnel and Vault together has a WGAG of 0.88 +/- 0.05, ranking lower than unconditioned WGAG.

Case 3: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=silk%20road&nested=true&unconditional=true. WGAG decreases to 0.88 +/- 0.01 when Silk Road is present.

Case 4: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=rabble%2Cfortune%20teller%2Cbureaucrat%2Cghost%20ship%2Cspy%2Cscrying%20pool&nested=false&unconditional=true. The best possible WGAG singly-conditioned on one of these attacks is Ghost Ship, at 0.91 +/- 0.01.

Other interactions

http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=true&nested=false&unconditional=false: when singly-conditioning, Scout never has a WGAG better than 0.94 +/- 0.01.

Picking out the best cards from single-conditioning, then doubly-conditioning, we can find some interactions: http://councilroom.com/supply_win?&targets=scout&interaction=great%20hall%2Cnobles%2Cfairgrounds%2Cvineyard%2Cpirate%20ship%2Charem%2Cworker's%20village%2Cuniversity%2Ctreasure%20map%2Cquarry%2Cpossession%2Cbaron%2Cironworks&nested=true&unconditional=true. Scout gets a WGAG of at least 1 from Vineyard/University; Ironworks/Great Hall; Ironworks/Vineyard. Although it only has a WGAG of 1.01 +/- 0.03 when conditioned on both Vineyard and University, it has a solid win-rate per gain of 1.14 +/- 0.02.

Conclusions

Of the combos listed in the article, Scout/Ironworks/Great Hall is the only one supported by supply_win data. Scout/Vineyard/University and Scout/Vineyard/Ironworks are also recommended by supply_win.

I understand that the stats are terrible for Scout, and probably every combo.  This doesn't surprise me, as many players simply ignore Scout and think "it's awful" even if isn't.  I feel like new players buy scout when it isn't good to "try it out" which hurts the stats.  I'd be more interested in A) Simulator data or B) Game logs.

Sort by delta quality.  (I should make the sorting option a url param).

The per gain on vineyards baseline is really high.  Adding haggler makes it a bit worse.

Actually reading it right, a LOT of those are positive by statistics.

There are two different questions here.

"Delta quality" helps with questions of the form: is Scout improved when Great Hall is present? The delta quality 2.72 suggests that the answer is yes.

"Any gain" helps with questions if the form: is it worth buying Scout when Great Hall is present? The WGAG of 0.94, being far below 1, suggests not.

There is some risk in interpreting these statistics, because there can be other factors in play, but it's a start.

Edit: The point being that there is a difference between a "nombo" and a "weak combo". Scout/Island is a nombo, because the Island removes green from your deck, making Scout less useful. Scout/GH is a weak combo, because although they work well together, the Scout still won't help your deck enough to be worth buying, unless more Scout-enablers are present.

[jomini]

BB: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think WGAG might still miss a lot of complexity. For instance, opening scout is much, much worse for your game than adding it in late game with some enabling combo. Isn't WGAG heavily constrained by player timing - combos that might actually work in the  mid/late game getting overwhelmed by noobs with crappy openings seems to be an unavoidable distortion.

Suppose we looked at something like scout/tactician/secret chamber. Players who buy scout on turn 1 thinking "Scout + SC is awesome" is going to lose and bring down WGAG. A player who goes tactician first, then adds scout to a double tac/SC setup (so they can play double tac/Scout/Sc for the province/duchy) will do better. However, if most of the players who buy scout are noobs, we should expect WGAG to be dominated by folks who just buy it for the hell of it, not by someone with a plan. (Note I'm not disputing the rankings on scout or even saying that this is better than just a single-tac setup)

Further, a poorly timed scout buy seems like it would have a larger negative effective than a well timed buy will have a helping effect. I'm curios about this so, please let me know if my understanding is faulty.

[blueblimp]

You're right that WGAG is limited in what it can tell you. It's just one tool.

[verikt]

Here's a game where scout turned out useful
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/31/game-20120731-070846-e906d0ed.html

[Kahryl]

People think Thief is worse than it is because it scales so hard and isotropic people almost always play 2 player.

It's still a poor card but in 3 and 4 player games I've played it is much stronger.

[DrFlux]

Here's a game where scout turned out useful
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/31/game-20120731-070846-e906d0ed.html

I agree scout was useful here, but I think you bought one too early, if you notice, your first two activations were completely dead.

Also, I'm not sure why you didn't focus on emptying out the duchies before hitting the provinces: you could have won the split like 6-2 and gotten way more points from dukes. Was there danger of piling that I didn't see? Actually on second thought you were probably worried about piling from pawn-island-duchy. Nevermind.

[verikt]

Here's a game where scout turned out useful
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/31/game-20120731-070846-e906d0ed.html

I agree scout was useful here, but I think you bought one too early, if you notice, your first two activations were completely dead.

Also, I'm not sure why you didn't focus on emptying out the duchies before hitting the provinces: you could have won the split like 6-2 and gotten way more points from dukes. Was there danger of piling that I didn't see? Actually on second thought you were probably worried about piling from pawn-island-duchy. Nevermind.

My first activation let me pick what to draw with wishing well, and trash all seven coppers.
I'm not sure whether it was the best buy for turn 3 but look at my other choices. Ironworks, which is dead as soon as we finish islands. Wishing well, island or another silver. Why would I want another silver with tac and mint? I'd rather have nothing but golds and green, and scout to draw the green. And yeah, I didn't go for duchies because of the piles. He had 2 ironworks to my one, and my deck was half the size of his.

[popsofctown]

So, I'm glad to see that someone is trying to give Scout some love.  I'm not glad to see that Scout's best situation is ignored.  There is a card, not mentioned once in this article, which Scout is actually very decent support for, and which I am most likely to pick one up with.  And any article that tries to explain why Scout is not the worst card around (it's not!  It is merely fourth-worst) needs to talk about this synergy.

That card is Scrying Pool.

So, my favorite partners to Scout are not Great Hall, or Crossroads, or anything like that.  They are, IMO, Vineyard (which has already been mentioned above) and Scrying Pool.  Here's why:

* both of those cards need non-terminal actions, Scrying Pool to increase draw power and Vineyard to pump up VP without increasing terminal clashes.  Scout could do absolutely nothing for you and still be of value with these two cards around.
* The reordering and clearing is particularly useful with Pools: take green into your hand, set up a Treasure to discard, pick up Actions.
* Sweeping green into your hand helps with Vineyard, too, especially if you're relying on cantrips etc. and would be liable to choke on Vineyards as you green.

Here are a couple examples of Scout providing actual value to Pool (and other) decks:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110614-105235-db2b72f7.html : it doesn't really ever sweep up green, but it does encheapen Peddler and improve Pool efficiency.  Interestingly, the Tactician buy was a complete waste as I always preferred to just play Witch or Salvager, and I Salvage it after a while.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110904-225805-1a8943b9.html : Obviously Nobles, and Copper-specific trashing, both boost Scout here as well.  RisingJaguar and I would probably both do the same thing without Scout around, but it was pretty clearly a good buy when you happened to only have $4 or $5 here.  (Didn't RisingJaguar admit he used to buy Scout 60 percent of the time?  I'd love to hear him chime in here.)

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120612-133532-e5582d6b.html : Okay, actually I lost this one.  But the Scout pretty much always improved my next hand by sweeping a bit of green into the current one.  It's a fun contrast of styles, as Feast/Duke edges out Vineyard/Transmute.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120514-140331-5890997b.html : An odd case where Scout is used as support for Tactician/Vault.  Heumidin's Turn 17 is the best example of it in action.

Hunted for this thread to give an obligatory I-won-a-game-off-of-this-post-after-reading-it upvote

[verikt]

The first really useful scout game I remember playing
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/09/game-20120809-102033-d3d11c6b.html

[Powerman]

The first really useful scout game I remember playing
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/09/game-20120809-102033-d3d11c6b.html

It looks like a good board for Scout, having Ironworks - Tunnel - Cellar.  Good spot!

[clb]

Either "Conquer Bot" is really Robz or it has been reading the forum and doesn't quite understand. In a recent game with Sea Hag and Embargo, he chose to embargo the Scout.

[^_^_^_^]

Robz up voted it, it is probably either Robz or he has an Apprentice!

[DG]

The bots seem to embargo the pile they're least likely to buy so you might see embargoed scouts again.

I did play one game where I embargoed silver. One bot kept buying silvers and took the curses whilst the other one bought a lot of scouts. It would actually have been ok if it had bought any great halls from the supply to go with it!

[Roadrunner7671]

Powerman, you really made Scout look good. I applaud your knowledge on this noble card. However, this article is about three years old. I think the forum has learned a lot about Scout since then, and I think a Scout 2 should be made.

Disclaimer: I am not volunteering, I am far too illiterate to write an article about any card.

[shark_bait]

I just bought Scout in an IRL game with a Bazaar/Wharf/Conspirator no trashing engine.  It helped activate a couple of early conspirators and lined up a Bazaar to draw the Wharf.  I think I just might be able to say that my deck was better with Scout than it was without.

[Roadrunner7671]

I just bought Scout in an IRL game with a Bazaar/Wharf/Conspirator no trashing engine.  It helped activate a couple of early conspirators and lined up a Bazaar to draw the Wharf.  I think I just might be able to say that my deck was better with Scout than it was without.

This is huge. Whoever writes the article needs to quote you on this.

[nate_w]

I just bought Scout in an IRL game with a Bazaar/Wharf/Conspirator no trashing engine.  It helped activate a couple of early conspirators and lined up a Bazaar to draw the Wharf.  I think I just might be able to say that my deck was better with Scout than it was without.

This is huge. Whoever writes the article needs to quote you on this.

"Scout: sometimes doesn't make your deck worse!"

Similarly you want to buy coppers sometimes (way more often).  Should there be an article on buying copper?

[shark_bait]

I just bought Scout in an IRL game with a Bazaar/Wharf/Conspirator no trashing engine.  It helped activate a couple of early conspirators and lined up a Bazaar to draw the Wharf.  I think I just might be able to say that my deck was better with Scout than it was without.

This is huge. Whoever writes the article needs to quote you on this.

"Scout: sometimes doesn't make your deck worse!"

Similarly you want to buy coppers sometimes (way more often).  Should there be an article on buying copper?

Situation 1:  Oh <inset expletive of choice here>... I trashed too much with my Chapel.  Better buy a Copper.

Situation 2:  I'm a <insert insult of choice here>.  Why did I buy that Mint.  Better buy a Copper.

Joking aside, there are numerous instances when it's a good thing.  Too many to write in a short paragraph.  An article would probably fit a nice niche.

[ConMan]

Similarly you want to buy coppers sometimes (way more often).  Should there be an article on buying copper?

Probably. Working out when you actually want to buy Copper is a really interesting strategic and tactical decision that must be very easy to mess up. The two biggest cases - Gardens and Goons - are already covered somewhat in other articles, but I think there's still more to discuss. And if you wanted to be cheeky, you could call it something like "Behind Silver".

[Eevee]

All things considered, copper is a significantly stronger card than scout.