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Author Topic: Mountebank  (Read 27331 times)

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Morgrim7

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Mountebank
« on: July 24, 2012, 09:30:47 am »
+3

Mountebank, like any other curser, is one of those few cards that you would actually open Feast for. Unlike any other curser, it doesn't quickly lose its value. Mountebank is one of those cards that the more times you play it, the less amount of times it gets effective. Because, the more times you play it, the more curses your opponent gets, the more likely it is he will have a curse in his hand to discard. Lets say your opponents deck consisted of: 8 Coppers, 3 Estates, 2 Mountebanks, 1 Silver, and 1 Curse. Now imagine that you played Mountebank. There are 17 cards in his deck, five of which he has in his hand. The probability of him having a curse in his hand is  0.38. Not so bad. Now lets add some curses and coppers. His deck is now 9 Coppers, 2 Curses, 3 Estates, 2 Mountebanks, and 1 Silver. There are now 19 cards in his deck, and with 5 in the hand, the probability has increased to .6. Do it again, and it increases to .8. So you see, the more it is played, the less effect it has. So, for the curses to run out, you will have to either have perfect luck, or wait a bit for the decks to fatten. Thus, in many Mountebank games, instead of going quickly like games with Witch, the curses slowly trickle out and might not even empty at all by the time the game is over.

Coppers?
Many of the decisions made when playing with Mountebank revolves around whether or not you want the extra coppers. In games with cards that don't care about coppers, such as Loan, Counting House, Cache, PhilStone, and Gardens, the coppres might not matter as much, and may, in fact, be beneficial. In these types of games, if the curses are gone, when given the choice on whether to discard a Curse or not, do not discard the curse. The copper isn't harmful.

In games where the copper would not be beneficial, such as with heavy trashing, Mountebank is still somewhat of an attack, and shoud be avoided, but remember, in junking games, Copper is a card which can be quite helpful, and whose aid is not to be despised.

Copper provides one more thing: Bigger Decks. A good counter to any Mountebank strat is Gardens. You get a bloated deck, can greatly increase the value of Gardens, you get an abunance of Coppers, and you get a pre-depleted pile: Curses. What is not to like?

Playing with Mountebank
What is the point of a curser?
To get curses into your opponents deck.

Why is this so hard to do with Mountebank?
Bcause of the easy avoiding of the attack. Just discard a curse.

So how can I get the curses into my opponents deck?
You should play Mountebank more. Like this:

1) More in general. There are many ways to do this, some enablers include Inn, Scheme, and some good cyclers like Warehouse. It is also easier to do with Hunting Party. A very good way to ensure playing Mountebank alomst consistently each turn is to buy one, and load up on Hunting Parties. The Hunting Parties skip over the junk, and will almost reliaby get a Mountebank into your hand every turn. 

2) More per turn. If you can play Mountebank at least twice in one turn, it is highly likely that the second will suceed. So how can you play it more than once per turn? This is alot harder. One of the obvious answers is KC/TR, and if you can get to KC early in the game, great. TR is different. It only costs 4. Easy to get to. So buy it often, buy some Mountebanks, and you are pretty home free.
Another answer is some Villages. And maybe some +Cards. Like Tactician. If you can play a Tactician earlier in the game, and play at least two or three Mountebanks, you are likely to get some junk in his deck, which will not only start to waste the curses, but make his Tacticians (or Villages) less likley to synergize with his Mountebanks.

Mountebank is the card that, IMO, slows games down the most. The onslaught of junk, the duration of the emptying of piles, and the ability to junk even after the curses are gone make it so. This card, along with Ambassador, Torturer, and Possession are one of the few cards that can make people quit Dominion.

Works with:
Tactician
Cyclers
Scheme
Inn
Throne Room/King's Court
Villages
Itself
Counting House
Loan
Heavy trashing
PhilStone
Gardens

Conflicts with:
Ambassador (duh)
Masquerade (duh)
Other strategies you want to play but are ruined by this card.
Hand-Size Reducers
Edit: Oh, yeah, Trader. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 08:45:57 pm by Morgrim7 »
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DStu

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 09:40:08 am »
0

I wouldn't list Counting House etc. in "works with". Counting House works with opponents Mountebanks, and is actually a pretty good counter to Mountebank.
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Eevee

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2012, 10:26:55 am »
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I wouldn't list Counting House etc. in "works with". Counting House works with opponents Mountebanks, and is actually a pretty good counter to Mountebank.
Yeah, counting house gets stronger by mountebank, not the other way around.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2012, 10:27:34 am »
+6

I can also right a mountebank article:

Buy it.
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Eevee

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2012, 10:30:20 am »
+4

I can also right a mountebank article:

Buy it.

I can do better:

Buy two of them, sometimes three or four.
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Fabian

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2012, 10:32:09 am »
+4

I can also right a mountebank article:

Buy it.


Good article, nothing left.
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Voltgloss

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 10:49:15 am »
0

I can also right a mountebank article:

Buy it.


Good article, nothing left.

Even with Trader on the board?
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2012, 10:51:25 am »
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Sorry for being a wiseass.  Yes - even trader isn't necessarily enough for me to skip it, although you do have to think twice.
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DG

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2012, 10:56:21 am »
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Treasuries and alchemists are probably worth a mention for their vulnerability to mountebanks. Fortune tellers and rabbles can also backfire if they constantly put mountebank defense into your opponent's next hand. Similarly, courtyards and mandarins can retain curses from one hand to the next.

Cards that get value from hand size can be weaker if you're discarding curses from your hand. Warehouses and vaults might still be useful but not as useful as they would be against a sea hag.

Deck expansion is the biggest part of the mountebank attack. A deck can spin out of control very quickly and it can become impossible to control drawing enough to manipulate or repair the deck. As mentioned in the article, a deck can saturate with curses making it more difficult to add more with mountebank attacks. If you keep trashing other poor cards out of your deck, such as copper and estates, the curses saturate the smaller deck sooner and form a better defense.
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shraeye

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2012, 11:08:25 am »
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Similarly, courtyards and mandarins can retain curses from one hand to the next.

Havens too, but that is too expensive a way to try to counter Mountebank
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Insomniac

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2012, 11:09:59 am »
+2

Similarly, courtyards and mandarins can retain curses from one hand to the next.

Havens too, but that is too expensive a way to try to counter Mountebank

Haven doesn't work the card isn't in your hand until your turn so when your opponent plays mountebank you dont have the curse you havened
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shraeye

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2012, 11:10:56 am »
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That is a true statement, Insomniac.  I was incorrect.
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jomini

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2012, 11:15:26 am »
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Mountebank is weaker against alt-vp. Silk roads and gardens don't mind the copper flood as much (and with all the gardens, each play of Mtb after you've given out all the curses is +.8 VP), if there are strong enablers on the board (e.g. horse traders), then mountebank is just begging to be beaten down by a quick rush.

Ambassador can beat Mtb, yeah reflecting the curses gives him more chances to load you down with copper, but you can return those too (with a relative size change of 3 cards).

Other cards that conflict with or mitigate Mtb are apothecary (you can get more +3 coin/ +1 action apothecaries, you can engineer reshuffles to increase your odds of having a curse in hand, and you can cycle faster to your own attack) and watchtower (in addition to trashing inbound curses/coppers, you can also discard curses in order to increase your draw).
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Voltgloss

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2012, 11:19:40 am »
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How does Mountebank fare in a Hunting Party world?  Conceptually, it feels like a wash to me - on the one hand, Mountebank is an excellent +$2 terminal to round out your Copper-Silver-Gold if running a HP stack; on the other hand, if you are running a HP stack you're already set up to draw past the flood of Coppers and Curses.

Maybe a better question is:  with HP and Mountebank on the board, when do you buy a Mountebank?  (compared to when you start/continue buying HP's)
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D Bo

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2012, 11:45:12 am »
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Maybe a better question is:  with HP and Mountebank on the board, when do you buy a Mountebank?  (compared to when you start/continue buying HP's)

Personally I would always buy Mountebank before the Hunting Parties. As you said, it guarantees you +2 which would give you a better chance of getting to 5 in a subsequent turn. And I would just be afraid that if my opponent goes Mountebank before me, my deck will start to accumulate the extra coppers/curses before I have a chance to hit him. Once I have my Mountebank I'm free to binge on the HPs.
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ehunt

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2012, 11:46:57 am »
0

How does Mountebank fare in a Hunting Party world?  Conceptually, it feels like a wash to me - on the one hand, Mountebank is an excellent +$2 terminal to round out your Copper-Silver-Gold if running a HP stack; on the other hand, if you are running a HP stack you're already set up to draw past the flood of Coppers and Curses.

Maybe a better question is:  with HP and Mountebank on the board, when do you buy a Mountebank?  (compared to when you start/continue buying HP's)

seems like MB on the first shuffle then HP every five after, not certain.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2012, 12:31:36 pm »
0

How does Mountebank fare in a Hunting Party world?  Conceptually, it feels like a wash to me - on the one hand, Mountebank is an excellent +$2 terminal to round out your Copper-Silver-Gold if running a HP stack; on the other hand, if you are running a HP stack you're already set up to draw past the flood of Coppers and Curses.

Maybe a better question is:  with HP and Mountebank on the board, when do you buy a Mountebank?  (compared to when you start/continue buying HP's)

seems like MB on the first shuffle then HP every five after, not certain.

This would be my guess.  I might even not buy gold until the HPs are gone - because the curses are going to make finding your HP chains harder.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2012, 01:01:20 pm »
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This would be my guess.  I might even not buy gold until the HPs are gone - because the curses are going to make finding your HP chains harder.
I would think you might want to have the opposite reaction. Since it's going to be harder to pull off HP chains, you should make HPs a lower priority, not a higher one. Probably get a second MB before even starting on HPs, and always prefer Gold to HP.
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ehunt

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2012, 01:19:32 pm »
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i don't think it is significantly harder to pull off hunting party chains in a mountebank game, as long as you're willing to commit to having a boring deck. the presence of curse hurts the stacking a little (especially if you've just discarded one to fend off a mountebank), and then the extra junk decrease the probability that you start the turn with a hunting party in hand. but once you have one, you're pretty much good to go. I think I agree with preferring hunting party to gold basically till the hunting party stack is empty (after the first mountebank).
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hobo386

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2012, 04:02:56 pm »
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From my experience, HP/Mountebank works best when I get 1 hunting party first, then mountebanke, then all the other HPs.

Also. Jack is another counter to mountebanke, due to the trashing, the +draw, and the lack of reliance on actions.
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Morgrim7

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2012, 05:49:51 pm »
0

Did you guys even read my article? I did mention HP (if only briefly) and how I would play it. Guess I should add some more HP in...
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2012, 06:56:43 pm »
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Did you guys even read my article? I did mention HP (if only briefly) and how I would play it. Guess I should add some more HP in...
I don't think talking specifically about Hunting Party in the article is important. It's just that someone made a comment, and people have different opinions on the right way to play it. It's more of the subject for a simulation challenge or something than the Mountebank article, since it's not a particularly strong combo.

I think the main thing missing from the article is something about how Mountebank affects the game as a whole. Since it gives 2 junk cards instead of 1, it is nearly impossible to trash your way out, so it kills hopes of engines dead more than any of the other cursers. But on the flip side, it's not as strong as them in BM, since it eventually starts to miss (since in BM you don't trash the curses), and since the Coppers aren't all that bad.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 06:58:48 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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DG

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2012, 07:53:04 pm »
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Hunting party isn't so special. Using labs to drive through a deck and play mountebanks can work too.
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blueblimp

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2012, 10:50:04 pm »
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Since it gives 2 junk cards instead of 1, it is nearly impossible to trash your way out, so it kills hopes of engines dead more than any of the other cursers.
Yes. I have killed myself so many times trying to build an engine against Mountebank. An engine must be very very good to survive Mountebank. (On the other hand, if you do survive, it's lights out for your opponent once you start multi-Mountebanking every turn. Well, assuming there are enough VPs left. Colonies help.)
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Fabian

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Re: Mountebank
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2012, 11:07:37 pm »
+3

I'm just annoyed nobody +1'd my awesome joke grrr
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