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Jorbles

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Watchtower (v2)
« on: July 23, 2012, 04:29:54 pm »
+4

I wanted to write an article on Watchtower, but theory beat me to it years ago. However, his article written in November 2010 felt a little dated to me as it was written before Cornucopia, Hinterlands and some of the promo cards had been released. I thought that his article could use a revamp, so I edited it where I thought it needed it and updated it for the new sets. I took a wikipedia-ish approach to updating it, by which I mean if I thought he had it right the first time I just left it as is. This is an attempt to create a strong article based on the collective wisdom of the forums. Though it is based on theory's original article I have made substantive changes. Much of what I wrote on what works and does not work are my own opinions, and were not contained in the original or voiced by theory, any mistakes are probably mine. Of course any feedback is appreciated.

Watchtower

At $3 Watchtower is well worth the price. It is one of the most versatile cards in the game, and an Action that provides a benefit even without playing it.

First, and most obviously, Watchtower is a devastating defense card against junk giving attacks (Mountebank, Witch, Familiar, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Ambassador, Followers, Swindler). Not only does it block the Curse (or other junk) from entering your deck, it actually trashes the Curse, meaning that an attack-heavy opponent will soon find himself running out of Curses to give. (Compare to Moat, which, against a Witch-heavy player, only delays the inevitable.) It even counters Ill-Gotten Gains, which reaction cards that specifically react to Attacks cannot. It provides no defense against “deck-inspection” attacks (e.g. Spy, Thief, Pirate Ship, Rabble, Noble Brigand, Saboteur, Fortune Teller), but these attacks are weak enough that you’re usually not buying a reaction just to counter them. It does defend against handsize-reduction attacks by allowing you to draw back up to 6. It should be noted that it does this especially well against Torturer as you get a choice of trashing the incoming Curse or discarding two weak cards.

Second, if you’re willing to hold onto Watchtower and not playing it, it works as a mini-Royal Seal, minus the $2. With a way to gain multiple cards a turn there are some ridiculous ways to take advantage of this. You can play a Talisman, buying a Treasure Map, gaining another one, and putting them both on the deck! More commonly, you can buy something like Hamlet/Watchtower or Throne Room/[some other action] and ensure that you draw them together next turn. This thread contains some other more advanced examples. Any reasonably strong two card combo works. Even when you just have one buy, Watchtower can make sure you play important attack cards (Mountebank, Goons, Witch) before your opponent gets a chance to.

Third, and this is a very specialized use, Watchtower can greatly mitigate the damage of negative on gain effects (Cache, Embargo, Goons). Ordinarily, Goons-heavy players will avoid buying too many Coppers for VP tokens for fear of weighing down their deck. Watchtower solves this problem by trashing the Coppers as they come in, while still collecting the VP tokens. It similarly works well with Cache (you get to top-deck the Cache too!), and let’s you buy right through an Embargo.

Finally, Watchtower can form part of a good card-drawing engine, especially with +Actions that reduce your hand size while giving some other benefit. The prime example of these are disappearing Villages, such as Fishing Village, Hamlet, Festival, University, and Native Village. It should be noted that of these University is exceptionally powerful as having a University and a Watchtower in hand allows you to gain a $5 cost action, top-deck it and then draw and play it in the same turn. These engines also benefit from card sifters (Warehouse, Cellar, Inn), and +Action cards that grant some other benefit, but can reduce your handsize when played (Lighthouse, Governor, Upgrade, Pawn, Minion, Ironworks, Lookout, Haven). With enough Actions floating around terminals can be added for additional benefits, for example Vault, Bridge, Secret Chamber, Monument or Bishop.

Although on some boards Library will be superior, Watchtower is much cheaper, and its other abilities can sometimes make it superior. Drawing a dead Watchtower (either because you have no Actions left, or because your hand size is very large already) is much less of a liability than a dead Library because of its other uses.

Works well with:
-Disappearing Villages (Fishing Village, Hamlet, Festival, University, Native Village)
-Card sifters (Warehouse, Cellar, Inn)
-+Actions that grant some other benefit (Lighthouse, Governor, Upgrade, Pawn, Minion, Ironworks, Lookout, Haven)
-Two card combos, when there is the ability to gain them both on the same turn (KC-Bridge, Treasure Map-Treasure Map, Hamlet-Watchtower, Throne Room-Mountebank, etc)
-Sources of +Buy and card gainers (Talisman, Bridge, Ironworks, University, Horn of Plenty, etc.)
-Junk giving attacks (Mountebank, Witch, Familiar, Sea Hag, Young Witch, Ambassador, Followers, Swindler)
-Cards that make you want to take junk (Goons, Embargo, Cache)

Conflicts with:
-Cards that increase hand size (e.g., Laboratory, Alchemist, Caravan, Wharf, Tactician)
-Attacks that it does not defend against (Pirate Ship being the most important)
-Royal Seal, since the benefit becomes a bit redundant
-Library, on some boards.

Edit1: Added Haven. Made explicit mention of strength of Uni combo.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 05:19:26 pm by Jorbles »
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Insomniac

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 04:56:30 pm »
0

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2012, 04:59:11 pm »
0

Yes, watchtower has quickly become a personal favorite of mine.  The buying of two card combos and immediately topdecking them was a surprising revelation, thanks (Talisman to get 2xTreasure map? Now why hadn't I thought of that).  I had mostly used that as a way to be really happy even when I draw Watchtower "dead."  I had recently figured out the trashing of my extra coppers with Goons, and now look forward to pulling off some other cool things with watchtower.
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AJD

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2012, 05:00:36 pm »
+2

You might want to point out its combo with University specifically—the combination of disappearing village and card gainer that University presents is better than the sum of its parts as far as the interaction with Watchtower is concerned.
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Jorbles

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2012, 05:09:29 pm »
0

Works with Haven.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3562.0
Nice, I'll add that in. You must have posted this right when I started working on this.

You might want to point out its combo with University specifically—the combination of disappearing village and card gainer that University presents is better than the sum of its parts as far as the interaction with Watchtower is concerned.

That's a good point. I'll make it more explicit.
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jomini

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2012, 07:42:32 pm »
+3

Another fun trick with Wt is to down the curse pile to end the game. Some engines just end up with a huge number of +buys (I'm looking at you Kc) and you pounce out a quick 3 pile ending if you trash inbound curses in a turn. I have never lost a game where I have bought 10 curses ;). This can be extended to some extent to other piles (e.g. chapel can be quick and painless to pile out in a bridge game when you are up) and force your opponent off his plan as you can end the game whenever you want (because you can trash 10 curses) and he can't (because he doesn't have a Wt engine set up).

Watchtower is just awesome against swindler. Yeah you can trash the junk, but better it can make your opponent's swindler do the hard work of getting your engine clogging estates and coppers into the trash.

Wt also works really well against opposing player interaction in general - you you can more freely trash cards to opponent governors, top deck in bound silvers (or other upgraded cards), trash off opposing bishops, and discard to opposing vaults - all of these increase the effectiveness of your Wt and let you maintain full purchasing power (e.g. if you trash a copper in a deck with av. treasure > 1, your expected hand improves by a non-trivial amount). The only downside (kinda) is against gain a card (e.g. Cr, Gov), but even here you still gain the top-decking bonus.
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Jorbles

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 01:39:08 pm »
0

Another fun trick with Wt is to down the curse pile to end the game. Some engines just end up with a huge number of +buys (I'm looking at you Kc) and you pounce out a quick 3 pile ending if you trash inbound curses in a turn. I have never lost a game where I have bought 10 curses ;). This can be extended to some extent to other piles (e.g. chapel can be quick and painless to pile out in a bridge game when you are up) and force your opponent off his plan as you can end the game whenever you want (because you can trash 10 curses) and he can't (because he doesn't have a Wt engine set up).

Watchtower is just awesome against swindler. Yeah you can trash the junk, but better it can make your opponent's swindler do the hard work of getting your engine clogging estates and coppers into the trash.

Wt also works really well against opposing player interaction in general - you you can more freely trash cards to opponent governors, top deck in bound silvers (or other upgraded cards), trash off opposing bishops, and discard to opposing vaults - all of these increase the effectiveness of your Wt and let you maintain full purchasing power (e.g. if you trash a copper in a deck with av. treasure > 1, your expected hand improves by a non-trivial amount). The only downside (kinda) is against gain a card (e.g. Cr, Gov), but even here you still gain the top-decking bonus.

These are some really great uses of Watchtower, do you happen to have any in-game examples I could link to? I hadn't thought of these, but they're really interesting interactions.
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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 10:43:56 am »
0

I'm sure there's plenty I did wrong in this game, but I did have the thought of draining the curse pile with extra buys and watchtower in hand.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120726-161242-8c3bbeb7.html

If I had extra Goons buys, I would buy curse over copper if I had a watchtower in hand. Also, any other extra buys (even without Goons) I would buy curses and trash them because I had a VP-chip lead and I wanted to end the game sooner. Curses ended up being one of the three piles depleted so it worked out for me, though again, I'm sure both my opponent and I played sub-optimally.
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DG

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 01:28:38 pm »
0

I'm beginning to think the watchtower has many ways to be misplayed. This would explain why it has quite a low win rate for a highly effective card. Some problems might be

- Silver helps you buy attack cards that hurt your opponents. Watchtowers might protect you against attacks when in hand but might also slow down your purchasing of expensive attack cards.
- Not having extra actions to play action cards after drawing back to a full hand. Libraries handle this much better. You need a lot of actions to play a terminal card to reduce hand size, play watchtower to draw to six cards, then play more actions.
- Having another terminal action in hand with the watchtower seems harmless since you can play the other terminal action and put any purchased cards on top of the deck. However, four card hands don't buy provinces very well and you don't even want to put the province on top of deck
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2012, 12:55:33 pm »
0

This will most definitely need updating when Dark Ages comes out. Instantly being able to get on trash effects is powerful.
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Jorbles

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2012, 02:29:30 pm »
0

This will most definitely need updating when Dark Ages comes out. Instantly being able to get on trash effects is powerful.
So true, I'll plan some time to write an update around the time of the sets release.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 02:36:58 pm by Jorbles »
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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2012, 02:37:38 pm »
0

It might make more sense to wait a while? I mean, it'll be good to add that it works for cards with on-trash benefits, but it might take a few plays to judge just how good it is with those cards.

Though I'm already imagining a super-cool combo with one of the goko-leaked ones...
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Jorbles

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2012, 02:43:59 pm »
0

Yeah, I meant probably a few weeks after the release at the earliest. I imagine there will be a ton of discussion of the new cards as soon as we all start playing with them.
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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 03:08:12 am »
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I think Dark Ages makes a v3 necessary.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2012, 03:22:15 am »
+1

Watchtower combos with dark ages:
*Really cheap attacks with squire
*Really cheap triple silvers with feodum
*Risk free rats
*Using rats/fortress to gain the whole rats pile
*Gainers/Remodels and Fortress
*Horn of plenty/Cultist combos
*Catacombs to get around when cards like graverobber, university and procession specify actions
*Top decking golds with market square if you have an extra buy or get hit by an attack
*The usual combos with Gainers and TFBs, especially strong ones like Altar
*Rebuild your overgrown estate into nothing and trash your hovel (not that useful)
*I can't think of a good use for Hunting Grounds' effect, but maybe someone else can
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 03:53:57 am by NoMoreFun »
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Jorbles

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 03:25:52 pm »
+1

Top decking Spoils seems pretty useful and should probably be a specific mention.

I think Dark Ages makes a v3 necessary.
Umm yeah, Dark Ages on-trash cards and all the new gainers are going to totally change how Watchtower is played in combo with them. Plus now there's the possibility of buying something immediately trashing it with Watchtower for its on-trash benefit and then gaining it with something like a Gravedigger and retrashing it. Or gaining things from the trash and top decking them. So much potential.
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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2012, 01:18:55 am »
0

Could Dark Ages make Watchtower overpowered? :o
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2012, 02:17:17 am »
+1

Your Hand:Watchtower/4 market squares
Opponent plays a Curser
Trash the Curse with Watchtower
Discard the market squares to gain 4 golds, revealing Watchtower each time to top deck them
Play watchtower to draw all of them
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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2012, 09:16:06 am »
+1

Could Dark Ages make Watchtower overpowered? :o

Maybe.  I was thinking about this as soon as I saw Rats.  You play a rats, reveal a Wt, trash the rats you gain, +1 card.  Or, you play an altar, gain a rats, reveal a Wt, trash the rats, +1 card, and you never have to even own a rats.  But I haven't played with Dark Ages, let alone played with it in combination with all the other sets, so it's hard to say.  I'm assuming they playtest it very heavily for the very purpose of making sure they don't create an op card, but you know, maybe.
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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2012, 11:36:05 am »
+1

You know what all of you didn't mention, that is a good card combo with watchtower.  Upgrade!  Not only do you reduce your hand size as you trash cards, you get to top deck all of your upgraded cards and then draw them.  Especially works well with any village in hand. I used it the other day and it really works!
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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2012, 02:35:14 pm »
0

Your Hand:Watchtower/4 market squares
Opponent plays a Curser
Trash the Curse with Watchtower
Discard the market squares to gain 4 golds, revealing Watchtower each time to top deck them
Play watchtower to draw all of them

I don't know. I can see just Market Square/Watchtower being a good opening, but I was thinking of buying curses, trash the curse, reveal Market Square, discard get gold, top deck gold. Buy curses so you can three-pile more quickly.
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microman

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2012, 03:22:45 pm »
0

Watchtower combos with dark ages:
*Really cheap attacks with squire
*Really cheap triple silvers with feodum
*Risk free rats
*Using rats/fortress to gain the whole rats pile
*Gainers/Remodels and Fortress
*Horn of plenty/Cultist combos
*Catacombs to get around when cards like graverobber, university and procession specify actions
*Top decking golds with market square if you have an extra buy or get hit by an attack
*The usual combos with Gainers and TFBs, especially strong ones like Altar
*Rebuild your overgrown estate into nothing and trash your hovel (not that useful)
*I can't think of a good use for Hunting Grounds' effect, but maybe someone else can

I also thought that cultist/altar wouldn't be too bad either.  You would want to start off with your necropolis for the +2 actions but then you could trash the cultist for the on trash effect and just gain another cultist via altar.
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microman

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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2012, 10:57:14 pm »
0

Watchtower combos with dark ages:
*Really cheap attacks with squire
*Really cheap triple silvers with feodum
*Risk free rats
*Using rats/fortress to gain the whole rats pile
*Gainers/Remodels and Fortress
*Horn of plenty/Cultist combos
*Catacombs to get around when cards like graverobber, university and procession specify actions
*Top decking golds with market square if you have an extra buy or get hit by an attack
*The usual combos with Gainers and TFBs, especially strong ones like Altar
*Rebuild your overgrown estate into nothing and trash your hovel (not that useful)
*I can't think of a good use for Hunting Grounds' effect, but maybe someone else can

I also thought that cultist/altar wouldn't be too bad either.  You would want to start off with your necropolis for the +2 actions but then you could trash the cultist for the on trash effect and just gain another cultist via altar.

Not to brag, but I thought of the altar/cultist combo before DXV mentioned it in his secret history of the cards article. ;)
And no one relpyed. :( What now!? :P
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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2012, 11:01:21 pm »
0

Not to brag, but I thought of the altar/cultist combo before DXV mentioned it in his secret history of the cards article. ;)
And no one relpyed. :( What now!? :P

I would say that it's not exactly a stand-out "why didn't I think of that?" combo.  Altar+Cultist is just one of the general combo (Trasher)+(Card with on-trash benefit).  The Altar+Cultist combo just gets bonus points for fun thematic flavour! :P
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Re: Watchtower (v2)
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2012, 02:41:40 am »
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Not to brag, but I thought of the altar/cultist combo before DXV mentioned it in his secret history of the cards article. ;)
And no one relpyed. :( What now!? :P

I would say that it's not exactly a stand-out "why didn't I think of that?" combo.  Altar+Cultist is just one of the general combo (Trasher)+(Card with on-trash benefit).  The Altar+Cultist combo just gets bonus points for fun thematic flavour! :P

Yah, I have to agree with you, it probably wouldn't be the strongest combo out there. :)
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