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Author Topic: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!  (Read 30843 times)

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Guy Srinivasan

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2012, 04:17:02 am »
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Quote
Quote
Pineapple
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Each other player may trash a card from his hand. If anyone does, +$3. If no one does, you may trash a card from your hand, +$2 if you do.
Somewhat interesting interaction.  Late game, I see this card dying... but maybe not.  Seems like this wouldn't trash the bad stuff very quickly.

Might be political. In what order do the opponents make their decision?
For all decisions like this, opponents make their decision in turn order (starting with the active player if applicable).
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2012, 04:48:38 am »
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By the same logic applied in reverse, a card that says "Your opponent chooses: Lab, or something else" is strictly worse than Lab (assuming that your opponent has the goal of making the card as bad as possible for you, which is a pretty safe assumption).

I see what you're trying to say but it seems bizarre -- by that logic a card that said "Your opponent chooses: Lab, or you gain 5 provinces" would be strictly worse than lab, which seems like an odd thing to say.
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Grujah

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2012, 04:55:39 am »
+1

By the same logic applied in reverse, a card that says "Your opponent chooses: Lab, or something else" is strictly worse than Lab (assuming that your opponent has the goal of making the card as bad as possible for you, which is a pretty safe assumption).

I see what you're trying to say but it seems bizarre -- by that logic a card that said "Your opponent chooses: Lab, or you gain 5 provinces" would be strictly worse than lab, which seems like an odd thing to say.

But he would always choose the lab. Unless you gaining 5 provinces is better than Lab (like, he is in huge lead but you have a better engine, so he just wants ends the game before you catch up). In that case - you wanted to the lab effect - and if you had lab you wouldn't lose, but with this, you did. Its strictly worse (opponent would choose lab in any other situation)
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heatthespurs

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2012, 06:07:43 am »
+2

By the same logic applied in reverse, a card that says "Your opponent chooses: Lab, or something else" is strictly worse than Lab (assuming that your opponent has the goal of making the card as bad as possible for you, which is a pretty safe assumption).

I see what you're trying to say but it seems bizarre -- by that logic a card that said "Your opponent chooses: Lab, or you gain 5 provinces" would be strictly worse than lab, which seems like an odd thing to say.

But he would always choose the lab. Unless you gaining 5 provinces is better than Lab (like, he is in huge lead but you have a better engine, so he just wants ends the game before you catch up). In that case - you wanted to the lab effect - and if you had lab you wouldn't lose, but with this, you did. Its strictly worse (opponent would choose lab in any other situation)

It does sound weird. But since your opponent choice makes it never better than Lab, it has to be strictly worst than Lab. Min[X, Y, Z] <= X

Having said this, all the discussion above assume that your opponent would always know which option is the worst for you, which is not true. So under this constraint, it may not be strictly worst than Lab in practise.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 06:09:55 am by heatthespurs »
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2012, 12:47:55 pm »
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Modified the rules clarifications for "Grapefruit" to clarify that it only uses a single communal mat, rather than multiple individual ones.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2012, 02:33:11 pm »
+1

I'm going to defend Carambola.  4$ terminal gold would be too good, but it IS significantly weaker than terminal Gold.  Early on, gaining a Silver is definitely the most powerful option, and is a considerable draw back.  The remaining choices are much weaker.  A typical hand after opening Carambola would be something like:

Copper - Copper - Copper - Carambola - Estate

You play Carambola.  Your opponent gains a Silver, which is really good.  You can draw a card, and you'll probably draw a copper and hit 7$ instead of 6$ so there's not much point to that.  You can trash a card from your hand, and that's ok, that's probably what you do.  But that's not as good as adding a Silver to your deck if you're playing a Big money strategy.  +1 VP is provable weaker than gaining a Silver, because it is a terminal silver benefit for a 4$ card while Silver gain is a terminal silver benefit for a 5$ card, Explorer. (Province reveal is totally a fringe aspect of the card). 
Now if there's a really good engine on the board, like Bridge, the shoe actually moves to the other foot, trashing a card could be better than cluttering a deck with Silver.  So when your opponent trashes an Estate, your forced to take a halfMoat and pick up maybe a better engine component, or clog your deck with a Silver that you don't need because this Carambola card here is already your engine component procurer.

Lastly, the +card benefit is a halfMoat for the player playing a card and a Lab for his opponent.  That on it's own makes it ok as a terminal Gold.  Midgame, your opponent can take the effect of a 5$ card every time you play this sucker, and leave you with three effects that are all not as strong as that 5$ card.  And if he needs a different effect even more, you're left with a Halfmoat for you, and he knows whether you've supported it with a Village or not.

This is one of my favorite entries, (besides my own, which is awesome, but I have to be polite and not identify)
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Polk5440

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2012, 02:35:22 pm »
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Commenting on some later cards (my card is before this point):

Quote
Peach
$3 - Action
Trash a card. Gain a card costing up to twice the cost of the trashed card.
Each opponent may gain a card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.

Why is this $3?  Just compare to Remodel.  2-cost: Peach an Estate into a $4, and your opponent can un-Swindle (OK, that's weaker than Remodel, but slightly). 3-cost: Peach an Silver into Gold/Goons... opponent can still un-Swindle (probably about like Remodel's power).  4-cost: Peach a Sea Hag into a Province?  Crazy.  5-cost: Peach a Trading Post into a Province?  Crazy.  6+ cost: Peach a Gold into a Province... could do that with Remodel anyway.  I suppose this would be weaker if Peddler is on the board, but that's one card.

When you Peach the Sea Hag into a Province, opponent gains an Island. When you Peach the Trading Post, opponent gains a Duchy. So really your net gain is 3VP for the Trading Post, 4 for the Hag (except that opponent might actually get to play the Island and improve his deck by -2 greens). If you Bishoped the Trading Post, you'd get +$1 in addition.

So I'm not so sure it's that crazy. But yeah, overall it's probably comparable enough to Remodel to justify a $4 price tag. And yeah you obviously wouldn't want to use it on Gold in a Province game (and it wouldn't necessarily be stellar in a Colony game either).

Peach Gold into Colony (opponents gain Gold or small VP) actually scares me the most.
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Polk5440

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2012, 03:04:59 pm »
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Is it just me, or is the competition getting even stiffer? These cards are great!

I think for this one, my vote will be mostly based on the quality of the interaction element and how it fits in with the rest of the card.

Quote
Raspberry
$2 - Action
+1 Card
+$1
Each other player may trash a Treasure from his hand. You gain all of these trashed cards; put them into your hand. If no player trashes a treasure this way, +$1.

You must gain the trashed cards; interesting. However, it just seems too niche to be interesting in enough games.

Quote
Lemon
$3 - Action
Name an Action card. The player to your left either reveals the named card, or reveals a hand with no such card. If he revealed the named card, you play it. At the start of Clean-up, return the card to the player's hand. If he did not reveal the card you named, you get +1 Card, +1 Action, and gain a Curse.

As much as I dislike Possession, I like this card. A really fun-looking interaction where you play your opponent's card, but isn't too mean to your opponents, and it has a nice little gamble built in, too! Not really sure the curse gain is needed, but the concept of this card is really neat. Is this the first card that combos with the ability of other cards that make your opponent reveal his hand? Also, I prefer Lemon over Boysenberry. For some reason that card reminded me of Possession, too.

Quote
Lime
$5 - Action
Choose 1: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.
The player to your left chooses 1 for you to receive: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.

I really like the mechanic of the player to your left choosing something for you. Among Lime, Pear, Blackberry, and Date, I would like Date's simple implementation of the mechanic. . . if it didn't have the potion cost or option!  So I will probably go with Lime, instead. Maybe Lime would be better if the last line instead read: "Then, the player to your left chooses a different option for you to receive"?

Quote
Kiwi
$5 - Action
+$2
Each other player may reveal an Estate.  If no Estates are revealed, +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1.

The more I think about this card, the more I like it. It's simple, and I think it would really change the dynamic of a game by adding this interesting incentive to not trash your Estates (even buy more?) and accepting the clog in order to turn your opponent's Kiwi from a Gold that doesn't take up space into a terminal Silver.

Quote
Gooseberry
$5 - Action
You may discard up to two cards. If you discard a Treasure, +4 Cards, +1 Action.  If you discard two cards, +1 Buy.
Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he does, he draws 2 cards.

I just really like the idea of having your opponents get a Stables as an externality (the Lab as externality is so popular, it's almost overdone). Being able to discard a Copper to draw some cards also fits in tangentially with the emerging theme of use of Coppers of the fan set.

Quote
Mango
$5 - Action
Each opponent may choose one: gain a Copper in hand, or gain an Estate in hand.
Choose three of the following: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, +1 Buy.  (The choices don't have to be different.)
--
(Rules clarification:  Like with Pawn, you have to choose all three before drawing any cards.)

May clog with money or Victory; I like it. With all the choosing, it may slow the game down a little, but I get the feeling it may be worth it! However, as WW notes, it is really strong at $5.

Quote
Dragonfruit
$5 - Treasure
Worth $3
Each other player may trash a card from his hand.

I think I'm a sucker for Treasure cards, but I really like this cheap Gold with positive externality to opponents for off-set. Seems like it would be playable in more situations than Contraband or Cache. The only downside is the interaction has been done on other existing cards. It would be nice for a new non-attack interaction to win.

I do prefer this over the other Treasure and "others may trash" cards, though.

Quote
Papaya
$5 - Action
Gain a Gold in hand. Discard 2 cards. Every other player may gain a Silver in hand.

And we're back to "how powerful is getting money in hand, anyway"? I do like this idea, though. Nice and simple.

Quote
Carambola
$4 - Action
+$3
Clockwise starting from the player on your left, each player chooses one: +1 VP; +1 Card; gain a Silver; trash a card from hand. No player may choose the same option as any previous player.


I like having to choose something different.

Quote
Huckleberry
$6 - Action
+$2
+1 Buy
+$1 per differently named action card you have in play (including this).
When you play this card, each other player may place a card on top of his deck, or gain a Copper, putting it into his hand.

I just don't know about this card. I mean, I like the opponents' choice, but for some reason, the card as a whole doesn't seem to be as fun as the existing $6 actions.
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2012, 04:46:49 pm »
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Quote
Boysenberry
$5 - Action
Draw one fewer card than last turn during Cleanup this turn.  Take an extra turn after this one.  During that: Players see all you see.  If you may play a card, do so.  If you may buy or gain a card, do so, selecting one with the highest cost in coins.  The player to your left makes all decisions for you.

I am a little confused.  This card gives instructions on what to play and buy, but then it says the player to your left makes decisions.  I assume that these decisions are only for things not specified by the card.  So you must play actions in hand; if there are multiple, the player to your left picks which one.  If the card you play involves a choice, player to your left decides.  During the buy phase you buy the costliest card you can afford; if there are multiple at the same cost, player to your left decides.

I believe your interpretation of the card is correct.  The author of the card had provided rule clarifications which I agreed to withhold unless there were questions:

Quote
-Black Market's purchase becomes compulsory.
-University becomes compulsory.
-Tournament discarding a Province is optional because you don't have a direct option to gain a card.
-Similar for Baron
-King's Court is not mandatory because you may choose a card.  Once you decline to do so, you may not play one.
-You can reveal Trader freely and turn any gain into a Silver, even if Silver costs less in coins.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2012, 11:54:50 pm »
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Does Boysenberry seem like a terrible card on 95% of boards to anyone else? I see a few things happening most often:

1. BM-Boysenberry: Good if there are no bad cards in the Kingdom. A bad $4 makes it okay, a bad $5 makes it bad, and a a $6 kingdom will almost always make it awful. Especially if that card is Border Village, in which case Boysenberry is going to give you BV-Duchy or BV-[Counting House or similar] a lot.
2. Combo/chain/KC/etc. boards: Terrible. Opponent will terminal you out of actions as quickly as possible. Unless he wants to make you promptly pile the Curses, in which case he will stockpile +Buys for you, THEN terminal you out of actions.
3. Any board with trashing: Terrible. Opponent will trash all your good cards.
4. Any board with discard-for-benefit: Bad. Makes Warehouse, etc. untouchable, and if your opponent manages to put one or two in your deck, be prepared to buy the rest of them, followed by all the Curses and Estates.
5. The rare board where there are literally no terminals: Ungodly powerful.

It just seems completely untouchable on most boards, middling on a few, and ungodly powerful on some rare ones.

(edit: had one inaccuracy)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:59:55 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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blueblimp

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2012, 12:14:59 am »
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It's not that great even in case 5, because if you have a treasure in hand, presumably your opponent can play it, which kicks you into your buy phase, preventing any action plays after that.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2012, 12:17:01 am »
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It's not that great even in case 5, because if you have a treasure in hand, presumably your opponent can play it, which kicks you into your buy phase, preventing any action plays after that.

Well, that case is pretty simple to resolve via card text. He seems to be implying that you must play Action cards until you are out of either Actions or Action cards.

Also, I do realize I could be totally underestimating the card, and look forward to being proven wrong.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2012, 02:49:39 am »
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3. Any board with trashing: Terrible. Opponent will trash all your good cards.

Trash for benefit still gains a benefit, even if it's not exactly what you would have picked. 
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One Armed Man

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2012, 04:31:57 pm »
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Thoughts starting from the bottom (you don't have to read them that way).

Grape
I don't like this card's power in 4P games. A Steward that lets you choose all the options at once, almost. Everyone wants them, but they weaken after they are played more than twice, since players will wait until their own turn to trash the last 2 cards from their hand.

Raspberry
The combination of +Cards and +$ rubs me wrong.

Cantaloupe
This is wacky. If you played a Village first, the opponent wants to give you $3, but there isn't much difference between the choices. Unless I was drawing my whole deck, I would let my opponent choose.
The extra effect is fun. I would rather see it on another card, though. It should say "starting with you" to give you less of an advantage.

Peach
Gold to Colony, Potion to Province. I like the Remodel idea, but there are quite a few bonkers things that can happen. Seems okay.

Clementine
Both the players to the left and right get a callout, awesome! The penalty is very steep. Experiment: I play this card. Now my hand is: Clementine, $4 Terminal Silver, Gold, Silver, 3 Coppers, 2 Victory. My opponents pull a Gold and Clementine out of my hand. Now I have a the terminal silver and $5 in coin. If I started with a hand that was the "average" of those cards, I would get 1.4*5= 7. Seems reasonable, not-overpowering in engines since Clementine would be the first thing pulled from engine hands. Seems fun.

Boysenberry
Masquerade style cooperation is forgiven because of the nature of the challenge. I don't like the self-choice taken out of Dominion. Other people have mentioned the trashing thing.

Tamarind
The Treasure costing up to $3 only applies to Loan and Fools Gold. Since the +Buy on this card already encourages FG, the boost isn't needed and it could say Silver. Other than that, it is only a Silver gain better than Horse Traders with no Reaction. It also doesn't work if you don't have 2 cards to discard, so too weak overall.

Lemon
The cost for missing the card is huge. The only Action cards worth naming are 7 cost, Governor, Hunting Party, Mountebank, Grand Market, Golem, Alchemist, or Possession. Otherwise you can just buy the actions yourself. In all but the most trashed, Alchemisted, Schemed, or Minioned of games, there is no confidence they have what you are looking for. This card could also follow a hand-revealing attack (Cutpurse?) or if your opponent revealed a reaction. This card also discourages people from buying other actions (bad) and encourages diversity of actions (not as bad).

Lime
When these cards are stacked, the choices become difficult to keep track of. The main "game" of this card is to make sure you have extra actions when you play it so you don't choose +Actions. If you do, the opponent will too, since +4 Actions doesn't do much for you. If you have extra actions, +card or +$ is usually best. At that point, the card becomes a Level 2 city or (+2 card, +$2) or Monument+Buy. Seems okay.

Pomegranate
People probably only want to pitch their hand if it is full of green, the game is early, or they are confident their engine will go off with any other hand. It is a nice way to mitigate some bad luck. If no one takes advantage of it, you just played a copper (excluding Minion, draw up to).

Guava
Everyone will want to trash and draw most of the time. Too strong. I think a much more balanced version of this card doesn't let you trash and draw.

Cherry
This card is the best counter to itself. If no one buys a lot of this useless cantrip, this is almost a Grand Market. Everyone will get a few in most games, but the 2P games themselves will be swingier than even Tournament or Familiar games.

Tangerine
You get best of 9. Your opponents get best of 8. Considering that you had to spend an action to play this card, I don't think it is useful often enough considering how much faster the game is in the presence of this card.

Blackberry
This is an interesting drawing technique. The opponent usually wants to name the best card you have a few of (Silver, Gold, Platinum, engine component) or some combination of 2 weak ones. I want to play with this!

Watermelon
Mixing +Coin and +Cards rubs me the wrong way. I also don't understand what happens if you buy a Gold with this and 3 opponents have a Silver to exchange.

Date
The masquerade cooperation thing is a problem here, but since that is part of the challenge, I will let it slide. seems okay, I like +potions as a bonus.

Currant
This causes a crazy swing! I like it for 2P, but not for 4P. Gaining 6 crappy starting cards each time it is played is only good for alt VP.

Kiwi
People seem to like this one. Seems swingy, but Baron is, too. I would have liked to see the Estate thing with a lower bonus, but this seems okay.

Gooseberry
I don't understand. You can discard just a Copper for a Super Stables, but your opponent can stables too? The only reason to discard 2 cards is to get a +Buy. I like cards that explain their purposes simply.

Mango
This is gives you 4*4*4*4 choices and the opponent 2, so over 500 choices. The best thing most of the time are Lab, Smithy, Woodcutter, or some combination of actions and stuff. Filled with AP. The bonuses for the opponent seem very small. I would like discard 1 and draw 1 as an opponent bonus for a card this strong.

Nectarine
Naming in this case is similar to choosing. Is there a difference, thread? This is swingy if your opponent's hand is Gold-Province-Copper-Copper-Copper.

Pineapple
If you trash a card, this is a non-terminal $2 that trashes. If they do trash, it is a Dragonfruit. I like the game of the card, but Dragonfruit is simpler.

Elderberry
I don't want to even think about the confusion this could cause.

Dragonfruit
Since this would be good for a Smithy-BM strategy, the perk helps an engine strategy more. In multiples, eventually the opponent doesn't want to trash at all, but even then a $5 isn't too gamebreaking. Seems okay.

Papaya
The bonuses on this make the game end too quickly for my taste. These games would be even shorter than Governor ones.

Kumquat
Enough with the copper gain.  :)  This is an interesting way to do a weak restriction. Don't buy this against a Gardens player. I don't like easy BM enablers unless their bonuses explicitly help engine players, not other BM.

Huckleberry
Too strong

Carambola
This seems really powerful as an opener at $4. The trashing a card and gaining a silver are very strong and you would so often want either so the benefit your opponent gets in 2P is not a big deal.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2012, 05:22:17 pm »
0

I haven't understood something about boysenberry.
If chapel+festival+conspirator+province in hand, you would usually play festival->chapel (trash nothing)->conspirator->..., but may opponent decide to play chapel and to trash your 3 cards ? (and then buy a curse !!!)
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Chocolate is like victory points in Dominion. Both taste good but they'll hurt you if you eat too much of it instead of something else in your early days.

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2012, 05:25:42 pm »
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You miscalculate mango. You only have 20 options, since order doesn't matter, and your opp has 3: copper, estate, or nothing.

One Armed Man

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2012, 05:49:48 pm »
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You miscalculate mango. You only have 20 options, since order doesn't matter, and your opp has 3: copper, estate, or nothing.
Oh, that makes sense. Then that reduces the AP argument a bit. Pawn has 6 modes and causes AP. It is still a very strong card.
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Schneau

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2012, 10:05:58 am »
0

As some people have said, some of these cards that force opponents to do something seem like they should be classified as Attack cards. In particular, Strawberry, Grapefruit, Mango, and Huckleberry all could force opponents to do things they don't want to do, if their effects are mandatory for opponents (though most of their wordings are ambiguous on this issue). I would say any of these that force opponents to choose to discard / gain Copper or Estates / get rid of a card / gain a card that might be bad shouldn't be eligible for this clearly Non-Attack challenge.
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2012, 10:57:00 am »
0

As some people have said, some of these cards that force opponents to do something seem like they should be classified as Attack cards. In particular, Strawberry, Grapefruit, Mango, and Huckleberry all could force opponents to do things they don't want to do, if their effects are mandatory for opponents (though most of their wordings are ambiguous on this issue). I would say any of these that force opponents to choose to discard / gain Copper or Estates / get rid of a card / gain a card that might be bad shouldn't be eligible for this clearly Non-Attack challenge.

Strawberry, Mango, and Huckleberry all say things like "Each other player may choose one:".  I read these cards (and have received clarification from some of their creators affirming as much) that this means that the other players don't have to choose to do either of the options.  I'd therefore agree that these should NOT be attack cards.

Grapefruit does require other players to choose between two different options; that is, they can't just do nothing.  That may or may not mean it should be an Attack card; that's a judgment I'll leave up to the voters.
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Schneau

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2012, 11:04:39 am »
0

As some people have said, some of these cards that force opponents to do something seem like they should be classified as Attack cards. In particular, Strawberry, Grapefruit, Mango, and Huckleberry all could force opponents to do things they don't want to do, if their effects are mandatory for opponents (though most of their wordings are ambiguous on this issue). I would say any of these that force opponents to choose to discard / gain Copper or Estates / get rid of a card / gain a card that might be bad shouldn't be eligible for this clearly Non-Attack challenge.

Strawberry, Mango, and Huckleberry all say things like "Each other player may choose one:".  I read these cards (and have received clarification from some of their creators affirming as much) that this means that the other players don't have to choose to do either of the options.  I'd therefore agree that these should NOT be attack cards.

Grapefruit does require other players to choose between two different options; that is, they can't just do nothing.  That may or may not mean it should be an Attack card; that's a judgment I'll leave up to the voters.

Fair enough! I agree that if the option is optional, then it is definitely not an attack card. If any of those cards won, I hope we would make the wording more obvious that they are optional, since they could easily be read otherwise.

As for Grapefruit, I would definitely classify this as an Attack card, since it forces players to either essentially trash a card from their hand or gain a card that may be bad. But, I'm fine leaving that choice up to the voters.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2012, 03:40:51 pm »
+1

The number of options isn't the only factor for AP.  It depends on the relative quality of the options, especially if situations change the relative quality a lot..  "Choose two: Trash a curse from your hand, if you do, gain 3 Golds, or reveal and discard a Province, if you do, gain three Silvers, +1 Buy, or +1 Action" is much easier to play than Pawn with the same number of choices.
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heatthespurs

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2012, 12:53:45 am »
+1

As for Grapefruit, I would definitely classify this as an Attack card, since it forces players to either essentially trash a card from their hand or gain a card that may be bad. But, I'm fine leaving that choice up to the voters.

Shouldn't Masquerade be an attack card then?
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ftl

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2012, 03:44:55 am »
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Perhaps it should, but it would get way too weird if one person in a group of four Moats a Masquerade. So it's not.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #73 on: August 06, 2012, 08:26:00 am »
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As for Grapefruit, I would definitely classify this as an Attack card, since it forces players to either essentially trash a card from their hand or gain a card that may be bad. But, I'm fine leaving that choice up to the voters.

Shouldn't Masquerade be an attack card then?

Excellent point! The only reason Masquerade is not an attack card, as far as I can tell, is that it would be really weird if someone blocked it with a Moat or Lighthouse, etc. Grapefruit, on the other hand, doesn't have any of this weirdness, and could be classified as an Attack without trouble.
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #74 on: August 06, 2012, 04:22:25 pm »
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The results for the Non-Attack Interaction challenge are in!  Here were the criteria:

Quote
Design a card that is not an Attack card but that, when played by one player, allows or requires at least one other player to act.  The card may not be "targeted" in the sense that it allows the player to choose which opponent(s) are affected.

I've got nothing of my own this time, so let's get straight to it.  As with the Village contest, the winner ran away with it:

#1 - Amulet by Kirian with 31 points (Dragonfruit)
$5 - Treasure
Worth $3
Each other player may trash a card from his hand.


This entry in the Contraband/Cache category lets you have a cheap Gold in exchange for giving out some free trashing to your opponents.  As with Bishop, the severity of this penalty depends a lot on the kingdom at hand.  Unlike Bishop, this doesn't help you trash down as well, but the boost to your economy, especially in the early game, could be very well worth it.

The rest of the ballot has a lot of intriguing ideas deserving of exploration:


#2 (tie) - Artificer by eHalcyon with 13 points (Clementine)
$5 - Action
+5 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand.  The player to your left chooses a card to discard from your hand, then the player to your right does the same.

#2 (tie) - World's Fair by Mecherath with 13 points (Banana)
$3 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain a card costing up to $6, placing it on top of your deck.
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained.

#4 - Inheritance by nopawnsintended with 11 points (Kiwi)
$5 - Action
+$2
Each other player may reveal an Estate.  If no Estates are revealed, +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1.

#5 - Smelt by Tables with 10 points (Strawberry)
$5 - Action
+3 Cards
Reveal your hand and trash two Copper cards. If you do, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand. Each other player may trash a Copper from their hand or gain a Copper, putting it into their hand.

#6 (tie) - Beggar by Drab Emordnilap with 9 points (Raspberry)
$2 - Action
+1 Card
+$1
Each other player may trash a Treasure from his hand. You gain all of these trashed cards; put them into your hand. If no player trashes a treasure this way, +$1.

#6 (tie) - Ward by A Drowned Kernel with 9 points (Pomegranate)
$2 - Action
+1 Action
+$1
Each other player may discard his hand and draw four cards. If any do, you do too.

#6 (tie) - Coffers by Dsell with 9 points (Kumquat)
$5 - Action
+$3
Each other player may gain 2 coppers, putting one into their hand.

#6 (tie) - Philanthropist (1) by One Armed Man with 9 points (Blueberry)
$5 - Action
+$4
While this is in play, Victory cards cost +$1 and each other player gains a copy of the first non-Victory card you buy during your Buy step.

#10 (tie) - Ramp by WanderingWinder with 8 points (Peach)
$3 - Action
Trash a card. Gain a card costing up to twice the cost of the trashed card.
Each opponent may gain a card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.

#10 (tie) - Salesman by Michaelf7777777 with 8 points (Lime)
$5 - Action
Choose 1: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.
The player to your left chooses 1 for you to receive: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.

#10 (tie) - Stagecoach by Tejayes with 8 points (Guava)
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand, then draw a card if he does.
If any other player trashes a card this way, +1 Card.

#10 (tie) - Horse Farm by Polk5440 with 8 points (Gooseberry)
$5 - Action
You may discard up to two cards. If you discard a Treasure, +4 Cards, +1 Action.  If you discard two cards, +1 Buy.
Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he does, he draws 2 cards.

#14 - Inspector by dnkywin with 7 points (Blackberry)
$4 - Action
The player to your left names two cards (the two cards are allowed to be the same). Reveal the top 5 cards in your deck, and pick one: put all instances of cards the player to your left named into your hand, or put all cards that the player to your left did not name into your hand. Discard the rest.

#15 (tie) - Philanthropist (2) by andwilk with 5 points (Tangerine)
$3 - Action
Choose to draw between 2 and 5 cards.  Discard from your hand 2 less cards than you drew.  Your opponents draw and discard a number of cards equal to what you discarded.

#15 (tie) - Campaign by ChocophileBenj with 5 points (Pineapple)
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Each other player may trash a card from his hand. If anyone does, +$3. If no one does, you may trash a card from your hand, +$2 if you do.

#15 (tie) - Mad Scientist by DWetzel with 5 points (Date)
$2P - Action
The opponent to your left chooses two: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +$2 and +P.

#15 (tie) - Flag by Powerman with 5 points (Cantaloupe)
$3 - Action
Choose one: +2 Cards; or +$2; or the player to your left chooses +3 Cards or +$3.
Each player (including you) may trash a card from their hand.  If no one does, each player gains a Silver, placing it on top of their deck.

#15 (tie) - Prospector (1) by Graystripe77 with 5 points (Apple)
$5 - Action
+$1
Trash a card from your hand.
Draw up to 5 cards in hand.
Each other player may put a card from their hand on top of their deck.

#20 (tie) - Antique Traders by Nicrosil with 4 points (Plum)
$5 - Action
+2 VP
Discard down to 2 cards in hand. Gain a Silver, putting it in hand.
Each other player may trash up to two cards in hand.

#20 (tie) - Courtier by Schneau with 4 points (Papaya)
$5 - Action
Gain a Gold in hand. Discard 2 cards. Every other player may gain a Silver in hand.

#20 (tie) - Body Snatcher by brokoli with 4 points (Nectarine)
$3 - Action
The player to your left reveals two cards costing more than $0 from his hand. Name one.
Gain a card of the same price as the named card.
--
(Rule clarification: If he have less than two cards costing more than $0, he reveal his hand, and you gain no benefit.)

#20 (tie) - Trading House by heatthespurs with 4 points (Grapefruit)
$3 - Action
+$2
You may trash all the cards in the Trading House mat.
Each player (including you) chooses one: put a card from his hand into the Trading House mat; or gain a card from the Trading House mat and put it into his hand
--
(Rules clarification: All cards on the Trading House mat are visible to all players at all times.)

#20 (tie) - Maven by Guy Srinivasan with 4 points (Fig)
$2 - Action
+1 Action
Each player puts a Victory token on a non-empty Supply pile.
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per Victory token on that card's pile and remove those tokens from that pile.

#20 (tie) - Scrap Heap by Bella Cullen with 4 points (Elderberry)
$3* - Action
+1 Action
+1 Card
Each other player may trash a card from hand.  If a Scrap Heap is in play, +1 VP for each card trashed.
--
If another card that allows trashing on play is in the kingdom, this card costs $6.

#20 (tie) - Tartuffe by Garth One-eye with 4 points (Currant)
$4 - Action
Trash any number of cards from your hand.  +$1 for each card trashed this way.
Each other player may trash up to two cards from his hand.
Gain the trashed cards.

#20 (tie) - Inventor by Qvist with 4 points (Cherry)
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player may reveal a copy of Inventor from his hand. If no one does, +$2.

#28 (tie) - Treaty by yuma with 3 points (Watermelon)
$5 - Action
+2 Cards
+$3
+1 Buy
When you play this card, each other player may exchange a card costing more than $2 from their hand for a copy of a card that you have played this turn, including this one. You may either gain the exchanged cards or trash them.

#28 (tie) - Dilemma by Auto-Destruct Sequence with 3 points (Pear)
$5 - Action
The player to your left chooses one for you to receive:
+$4, +1 Buy
+2 Cards, +1 Action
+2 VPs

#28 (tie) - Stalker by NoMoreFun with 3 points (Orange)
$4 - Action
+2 Cards
Name a card. Each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck. If the named card is revealed, +1 Action, +$1.
--
(Rules clarification: After the reveal, the card is returned to the bottom of his deck.)

#28 (tie) - False Prophet by Robz888 with 3 points (Lemon)
$3 - Action
Name an Action card. The player to your left either reveals the named card, or reveals a hand with no such card. If he revealed the named card, you play it. At the start of Clean-up, return the card to the player's hand. If he did not reveal the card you named, you get +1 Card, +1 Action, and gain a Curse.

#28 (tie) - Incinerator by FishingVillage with 3 points (Grape)
$3 - Action
Each player may trash up to 2 cards from his hand. +$1 per 2 cards trashed in total, rounded down.

#28 (tie) - Spoils by Kelume with 3 points (Carambola)
$4 - Action
+$3
Clockwise starting from the player on your left, each player chooses one: +1 VP; +1 Card; gain a Silver; trash a card from hand. No player may choose the same option as any previous player.

#28 (tie) - Pagan Rites by zahlman with 3 points (Apricot)
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards from your hand. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
Each other player with at least 5 cards may discard his hand and then draw 5 cards.

#35 (tie) - Prospector (2) by Fragasnap with 2 points (Tamarind)
$3 - Action
+1 Buy
+$1
You may discard 2 cards from your hand. If you do, gain a Treasure costing up to $3, putting it into your hand.
Each other player may discard a card. Each player who does gains a Silver.

#35 (tie) - Plunderer by Dubdubdubdub with 2 points (Mango)
$5 - Action
Each opponent may choose one: gain a Copper in hand, or gain an Estate in hand.
Choose three of the following: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, +1 Buy.  (The choices don't have to be different.)
--
(Rules clarification:  Like with Pawn, you have to choose all three before drawing any cards.)

#37 (tie) - Gambler by Adrienaline with 1 point (Honeydew)
$6 - Action
+2 Cards
You may trash 3 random cards from your hand. If you do, gain a Province, putting it on top of your deck.
Every other player may trash two random cards from their hand. If they do, they gain a Gambler, Duchy, or Gold of their choice.

#37 (tie) - Procession by popsofctown with 1 point (Boysenberry)
$5 - Action
Draw one fewer card than last turn during Cleanup this turn.  Take an extra turn after this one.  During that: Players see all you see.  If you may play a card, do so.  If you may buy or gain a card, do so, selecting one with the highest cost in coins.  The player to your left makes all decisions for you.

#39 - Lucky Fountain by Saucery with 0 points (Huckleberry)
$6 - Action
+$2
+1 Buy
+$1 per differently named action card you have in play (including this).
When you play this card, each other player may place a card on top of his deck, or gain a Copper, putting it into his hand.
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