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Author Topic: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!  (Read 30824 times)

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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2012, 05:54:26 pm »
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Carambola
$4 - Action
+$3
Clockwise starting from the player on your left, each player chooses one: +1 VP; +1 Card; gain a Silver; trash a card from hand. No player may choose the same option as any previous player.

This card is weird in a 5 or 6 player game. ._.
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2012, 05:55:03 pm »
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I didn't find as many good cards in this one as I did in others. I think rinkworks was right, this is the hardest challenge.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2012, 06:25:25 pm »
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For clarification, for Strawberry can a player choose to do neither?

Edit: Same for Huckleberry and Mango.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 06:35:52 pm by A Drowned Kernel »
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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2012, 06:45:35 pm »
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Apple: Weak. Yes, yes, it's like Jack. But... it doesn't give you silver, it costs more, and it gives your opponents a (albeit incredibly mild) benefit. In exchange, you get one money, the trashing happens before the drawing, and you can trash copper. Oh, the trashing is mandatory. This costs $5? It could cost 3, and I still don't think it would be great. I mean, no silver gain is HUGE.
Orange: A moat that can be a lab+peddler. Moat is not THAT bad, lab+peddler is astounding. If you can work a way to play multiples of these, success is guaranteed, too. Too good.
Strawberry: A 5-cost smithy variant, that helps the other player with a... how big is that benefit? Probably it is pretty good, since they can do either. I'm guessing this is strong, but I like it.
Pear: Strictly worse than Lab (okay, weird fringe cases like fairgrounds, possession), this is off the table.
Banana: Interesting. You get to topdeck what they only get to gain. Okay... seems the main use would be to end out a pile, or with a lead, to get the penultimate of something. Wait no, the main use is in like every non-mirror. I love it, though it may not get bought so much. Huge strategic impact, sorta like embargo can have.
Plum: How do these things fit together? Discard to 2 is pretty severe... really severe... and then extra benefit to opponent... still, I don't like 2 vp chips at once.... seems incredibly weak, except when it's broken. I hate it.
Apricot: A sifter that lets your opponent cycle their whole hand? Maybe marginally better than scout... maybe. Pass.
Grapefruit: This lets both you and your opponent basically trash whatever you want, 1 card at a time. And if unopposed, you get to... use it as a semi-indefinite haven? As a terminal silver? Seems a little wonky, and also should most of the time be as good for your opponent as you, without the opportunity cost. Pass.
Honeydew: I'm already worried about the nightmares choosing a 'random' card, let alone 3, can have. The 'of their choice' is the wrong wording - "I want the one in your discard pile". And then this seems soo gambly swingy. Just weird, and I don't like it at all.
Blueberry: Wait, is there a by step in your buy phase? Weird phrasing. This seems... pretty weak, actually. With +buy, you can give something crappy and then get something good, and I guess it's also good for non-mirrors, but I don't so much like it.
Fig: It's weird to have the tokens on piles and not gain them if you gain the card they're on. Also, why do you not have to choose a non-empty? Cursers, I guess. Mostly, this looks like you are getting a VP for a non-terminal trash, and your opponent does... basicall nothing, unless they mirror, in which case they might reap an extra few tokens. Meh.
Grape: Interesting, but seems a bit weak. Still going to be a pretty dead card after very long, and does it really help your buying that much early? I doubt it. Potentially much better (i.e. actually relevant) in like 4-player.
Raspberry: Now this is interesting too, but... okay, the biggest problem is that it scales so weirdly with players. However, it's probably actually fairly good, because you are often getting terminal silver plus a card, and usually gaining a copper. Okay, that is not soo good, but I *think* I like it.
Cantaloupe: Too much going on. And too strong for BM - smithy or terminal gold is too good for a 3-cost.
Peach: Interesting. 0->0 is less than worthless, 2->4 is PROBABLY quite good (depends on 2s on board; well, 4s too, I guess), 3->6 good-ish for engines, not for BM, 4->8 is boss, 5+ up is not so good. Really depends on what else is on the board I guess.
Clementine: Well, choosing any from your hand is steep, but... well, how often is this not going to be zanily good? You are denied your two best cards, but very quickly, your deck minus two is drawn (often you can get those anyway), and that is usually good enough for at least a province. Needs to be fewer cards, I'm afraid. Or terminal, though then it is too weak.
Boysenberry: I thought this was spelled with an 'I'? Now that is an interesting and novel card. So, this is (pretty) good for big money, but not BM-draw. And can have some pretty massive drawbacks, if there is bad stuff available at the wrong costs. Almost impossible to build an engine with this though, and +buy is veeerrrrrry dangerous.
Tamarind: So, if you don't take the option, it's a gimped woodcutter, if you do, it's a HT that gains a silver, and everyone else can in any case drop a card to gain silver? Seems weak.
Lemon: Another one I think I like. Great once curses are gone. But before, you aren't going to have enough info to justify the steep penalty. It is too steep.
Lime: This looks strong at first, but I think it is weak. Thing is, they almost always give you the buy, and then this is woodcutter but more expensive, worker's village without the card, 2 cards and a buy (which would cost 4 and not be strong there - this-turn wharf), or buy and VP chip, which does little other than make it possible for an endless game. None of these things warrant $5, and your opponent can even give you something else that's WORSE, in the right situation (say, give you cards if you've drawn your whole deck already).
Pomegranate: A copper that gives your opponents the choice to minion. Okay? Not great.
Guava: Totally symmetric, except you can draw one if they trash. Fine card.
Cherry: This is dumb - in 2-player, you have to both go for this really hard; in multiplayer, one person going for this wins, while two lose to the guy(s) who do(es)n't.
Tangerine: Symmetric sifting, except you get to moat yourself first. Think I like it.
Blackberry: So this is sorta like a Magic card whose name I can't recall (fact or fiction maybe?). The issue is, you always get the one card you want, basically, or four cards which are, together, better. Yeah, yeah, might be 2 and 3, but if there are 2 you want, they'll almost always be better than 3. I am curious how well this and copperflood would be.... prolly not terribly great. Interesting card though.
Watermelon: Wording is confusing, I don't know what they mean by exchange. And there are a thousand rules issues. But they will like ALWAYS take this thing, it is SO good. I dunno, weird, but in a bad way.
Date: Interestingly, these cards are killed by the more different things they can do. And +p kills this.
Currant: So, uh, interesting. It nets both of you trashing two, usually, and you getting +$4. And then later, it is not quite as useless as chapel. Probably. And then it's terrible in multiplayer.
Kiwi: Terminal silver that can swingily be a cantrip gold, and is way worse with more players? Naw.
Gooseberry: uber-powered for you. I mean, stables with an extra card, or stables with a buy (or rarely a naked buy). And then everyone else can... half-stables? Hmmm, I guess this is too good.
Mango: Okay, this seems sorta attack-y to me. And more important, it can be: lab, village, smithy, peddler, woodcutter, silver, terminal gold, or a host of other things, which is way too good for $5, maybe even for $6 (though maybe not), and then the other part is on average probably bad for your opponent. This is too strong.
Nectarine: This will frustrate you when you gain estates, most often probably get you silvers, and only very rarely gain you something better. Seems a touch weak, but reasonable.
Pineapple: So they trash, and this is gold, or they don't, which lets you trash to make this silver. Pretty nice card.
Elderberry: Ooooh, can't stand the alternate cost. I also don't understand why it is there.
Dragonfruit: Very like pineapple, but basically better.
Papaya: This, plus your two worst, gives you a gold in hand... not that good, really. Opponents can get silver IN HAND - I am pretty sure this would be better for opponents than the guys with this card, even discounting opportunity cost.
Kumquat: Terminal gold with a drawback. Well, they won't want it so often, but in the endgame...... Balanced but pretty boring.
Huckleberry: At least terminal gold with a buy, most often a good bit more, this is excellent for engines, and the drawback is pretty small. But 6 is sorta a lot, I guess?
Carambola: The first fruit I've never heard of! So, I don't like how this works in multiplayer. Also seems a bit too good for $4, well, depending on the number of players I guess. But in 2-player, yeah, for sure it's too good.

rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 07:23:02 pm »
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For clarification, for Strawberry can a player choose to do neither?

Edit: Same for Huckleberry and Mango.

That's how I read all three cards, yes.  One of them came with rule clarifications clarifying that, yes, other players can do neither.  I omitted that clarification from the final ballot.
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rinkworks

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2012, 07:24:37 pm »
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Can the person who submitted Huckleberry send me a PM and let me know?  I seem to have lost my record of who submitted that one.
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Powerman

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2012, 07:48:10 pm »
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Ok, lots of very unique ideas.  There is a LOT of unexplored interaction, so I'm really looking forward to going through them.  To me the important things are A) What benefit YOU get B) What benefit your opponent gets and C) How easy is it to exploit the benefits.  Council Room gives your opponent a big benefit, but you can easily take it away (Militia).  Bishop gives your opponent a lesser benefit, but it can't be taken away.  With that, off we go!

Apple
$5 - Action
+$1
Trash a card from your hand.
Draw up to 5 cards in hand.
Each other player may put a card from their hand on top of their deck.
This wants to be JoaT so badly.  But it isn't.  Yes you can trash coppers as well as the estates (and trash before drawing) but +$1 is so much worse than the silver.  Plus I don't like the feel of the interaction, as it seems irrelevant to the rest of the card.

Quote
Orange
$4 - Action
+2 Cards
Name a card. Each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck. If the named card is revealed, +1 Action, +$1.
--
(Rules clarification: After the reveal, the card is returned to the bottom of his deck.)
Wow a card made to counter Pearl Diver, incredible.  Anyway, really good in multiplayer where you have a good shot at getting it right at least once, but otherwise it's wishing well with a different benefit / penalty.  Could work.

Quote
Strawberry
$5 - Action
+3 Cards
Reveal your hand and trash two Copper cards. If you do, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand. Each other player may trash a Copper from their hand or gain a Copper, putting it into their hand.
Is this supposed to be mandatory trashing for you?  If it is I don't like it.  If it isn't, I do.

Quote
Pear
$5 - Action
The player to your left chooses one for you to receive:
+$4, +1 Buy
+2 Cards, +1 Action
+2 VPs
These benefits all seem really strong.  Your opponent gives you a +$4 (strong) a lab (strong but worth $5) or +2 VP.  Almost always will get the lab.

Quote
Banana
$3 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain a card costing up to $6, placing it on top of your deck.
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained.
Bleh.  I guess it's good if there are cards you need more than your opponent, but... then you are still giving them to your opponent for the benefit of putting it on your deck.  Eh.

Quote
Plum
$5 - Action
+2 VP
Discard down to 2 cards in hand. Gain a Silver, putting it in hand.
Each other player may trash up to two cards in hand.
This card would need a lot of testing, because I can't tell if it's over or under powered, but I'm sure it's not balanced.  +2VP is a big deal.  Basically it's discard 2 cards and gain a silver.  Which means it's tough to get a province, but easy to get a Duchy.  eh...

Quote
Apricot
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards from your hand. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
Each other player with at least 5 cards may discard his hand and then draw 5 cards.
Weak, and boring.  In general it's one card better than a cellar, but your opponent gets a potential benefit.  I like it at $3.

Quote
Grapefruit
$3 - Action
+$2
You may trash all the cards in the [This Card] mat.
Each player (including you) chooses one: put a card from his hand into the [This Card] mat; or gain a card from the [This Card] mat and put it into his hand
--
(Rules clarification: All cards on the [This Card] mat are visible to all players at all times.)
Bleh.  I mean, it's nice in some situations, but I feel as if it would be absolutely massacred by a Gardens strategy.  Or by Ambassador.  Or by Masquerade.  Or Trading Post.  Or Vault.  Etc.


Quote
Honeydew
$6 - Action
+2 Cards
You may trash 3 random cards from your hand. If you do, gain a Province, putting it on top of your deck.
Every other player may trash two random cards from their hand. If they do, they gain a [This Card], Duchy, or Gold of their choice.
It costs $6 so it can't be used as an early game trasher.  And then trashing 3 cards, let alone trashing 3 not of your choice means it can't be used in mid to late game.  So... when can it be used?

Quote
Blueberry
$5 - Action
+$4
While this is in play, Victory cards cost +$1 and each other player gains a copy of the first non-Victory card you buy during your Buy step.
For buying Victory cards, this is terminal Gold which is about at $5 so ok.  The other part... again, if there are cards you want that your opponent doesn't (say Silver if they go SP / Minion) than ok, otherwise it's too much of a benefit to them.

Quote
Fig
$2 - Action
+1 Action
Each player puts a Victory token on a non-empty Supply pile.
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per Victory token on that card's pile and remove those tokens from that pile.
It costs $2 so it should be bleh.  I actually like the bottom part of it, but I think the +1 action is not a good benefit for it.  I'd like +1 (or even 2?) cards more, or +$1.

Quote
Grape
$3 - Action
Each player may trash up to 2 cards from his hand. +$1 per 2 cards trashed in total, rounded down.
Weak.  Weak.  In 2P, you'll get +$1 or +$2, and when you've trashed 2 cards from your hand chances are you aren't buying anything anyway.  I guess it could be good in 4P.  But also bad, because I feel like if 1 person just ignored buying it they would kill the other 3.

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Raspberry
$2 - Action
+1 Card
+$1
Each other player may trash a Treasure from his hand. You gain all of these trashed cards; put them into your hand. If no player trashes a treasure this way, +$1.
Wow I actually like this card.  But I think it's too strong.  If no one else trashes, it's +1 card +$2 which is quite obviously too strong for a $2 card.  And if they do... well, it's not MUCH worse.  Plus it kind of cutpurses them (kind of).

Quote
Cantaloupe
$3 - Action
Choose one: +2 Cards; or +$2; or the player to your left chooses +3 Cards or +$3.
Each player (including you) may trash a card from their hand.  If no one does, each player gains a Silver, placing it on top of their deck.
This card raises consistency VS strength.  If you choose, you're getting a very weak card.  If your opponent chooses, you get a very strong card... but you're probably getting the one you don't want.  Probably better at $4?

Quote
Peach
$3 - Action
Trash a card. Gain a card costing up to twice the cost of the trashed card.
Each opponent may gain a card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.
Obviously you want to trash $3s (silvers mainly) and $4s (for provinces).  I don't like this card though.

Quote
Clementine
$5 - Action
+5 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand.  The player to your left chooses a card to discard from your hand, then the player to your right does the same.
Ok so this is Envoy.  But with an action.  And a MUCH harsher discard penalty.  It ends up being + 3 cards / + 1 action which is strong, but with the discard it isn't too bad.  Could be good.

Quote
Boysenberry
$5 - Action
Draw one fewer card than last turn during Cleanup this turn.  Take an extra turn after this one.  During that: Players see all you see.  If you may play a card, do so.  If you may buy or gain a card, do so, selecting one with the highest cost in coins.  The player to your left makes all decisions for you.
So basically a cross between Possession and Outpost?  Which are already 2 of my least favorite cards.  Soooo pass.

Quote
Tamarind
$3 - Action
+1 Buy
+$1
You may discard 2 cards from your hand. If you do, gain a Treasure costing up to $3, putting it into your hand.
Each other player may discard a card. Each player who does gains a Silver.
Why so weak?  If you don't discard it's a worse pawn.  If you do, it's a HT that's worse + doesn't react.  So again, pass.  But, I'd like it at $2!

Quote
Lemon
$3 - Action
Name an Action card. The player to your left either reveals the named card, or reveals a hand with no such card. If he revealed the named card, you play it. At the start of Clean-up, return the card to the player's hand. If he did not reveal the card you named, you get +1 Card, +1 Action, and gain a Curse.
Wow a card that combos with Bureaucrat and Cutpurse, incredible.  Good if you have a good chance of guessing right, bad if you don't.  And even if you do have a good chance, your opponent has to have something good in hand.  Because playing a Pearl Driver isn't too special.

Quote
Lime
$5 - Action
Choose 1: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.
The player to your left chooses 1 for you to receive: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.
I would like this soo much better if you chose after your opponents.  The way it is now, it is much too weak (without village support for sure, maybe even with village support).  Why?  Well, if you play this first with other action cards in hand, you have to chose +2 Actions, and then your opponent can choose +2 Actions (+4 actions is really not that good) or the Buy/VP.  And if you don't choose actions, they won't either so it becomes a terminal draw.  So engines are iffy.  And in a bm-style deck, they'll choose actions, so it's weak there too.

Quote
Pomegranate
$2 - Action
+1 Action
+$1
Each other player may discard his hand and draw four cards. If any do, you do too.
If anyone's played against minion before, they'll know how often they WANTED to discard their hand.  So basically this is a copper that can be played in your action phase.  Bleh.

Quote
Guava
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand, then draw a card if he does.
If any other player trashes a card this way, +1 Card.
Slight benefit to you as the player which is good, but still maybe too weak.  I think it'd be fine with +$1.

Quote
Cherry
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player may reveal a copy of [This Card] from his hand. If no one does, +$2.
Tough to balance / play with.  Because if you go for this hard and your opponent(s) don't you (should) coast to an easy victory.  Now if your opponent(s) go for it, both of you are likely to be left with a deck that can't do much.  There's a reason Tournament reveals provinces and not tournaments.

Quote
Tangerine
$3 - Action
Choose to draw between 2 and 5 cards.  Discard from your hand 2 less cards than you drew.  Your opponents draw and discard a number of cards equal to what you discarded.
Yeah, it's probably priced right and reasonably strong.  You can choose to make it a cheap Embassy, but then your opponent can play best 5 of 8 which is HUGE for them too.  So, I'm not sure if this card is too weak.

Quote
Blackberry
$4 - Action
The player to your left names two cards (the two cards are allowed to be the same). Reveal the top 5 cards in your deck, and pick one: put all instances of cards the player to your left named into your hand, or put all cards that the player to your left did not name into your hand. Discard the rest.
This seems too strong.  At a minimum you either get 2 good cards, or 3 not so good cards.  But you should (with some diversity) be getting 4 cards most of the time.  And if they somehow whiff with their 2 guesses, it's +5 cards.  So... I think it's too strong.

Quote
Watermelon
$5 - Action
+2 Cards
+$3
+1 Buy
When you play this card, each other player may exchange a card costing more than $2 from their hand for a copy of a card that you have played this turn, including this one. You may either gain the exchanged cards or trash them.
It's amazing as a last turn enabler, but past that it seems weird.  Like a masquerade played during a possession turn.  And I don't like that.

Quote
Date
$2P - Action
The opponent to your left chooses two: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +$2 and +P.
Wait, is it they can choose either the +P or the +$, or are those two together?  If they're together, fine good card.  If they're separate, this is a very bad card.

Quote
Currant
$4 - Action
Trash any number of cards from your hand.  +$1 for each card trashed this way.
Each other player may trash up to two cards from his hand.
Gain the trashed cards.
Since you gain the trashed cards, isn't it discard for you?  And isn't discarding for +$1 the same as Secret Chamber.  And doesn't Secret Chamber cost $2 and come with a reaction?  Doesn't this give your opponent a huge benefit that's likely to hurt you?  And isn't Secret Chamber already a weak $2?  So... I think this might be the weakest card ever created.  Sorry :P

Quote
Kiwi
$5 - Action
+$2
Each other player may reveal an Estate.  If no Estates are revealed, +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1.
Eh... possibly alright.  It encourages opponents not to trash which IMO is good for a card.  But, even still... it seems off balance.

Quote
Gooseberry
$5 - Action
You may discard up to two cards. If you discard a Treasure, +4 Cards, +1 Action.  If you discard two cards, +1 Buy.
Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he does, he draws 2 cards.
This is to Stables as Governor's +Draw is to Lab.  And we rarely take Governor's +Draw.  So I suspect the opponent's benefit is too strong here as well.

Quote
Mango
$5 - Action
Each opponent may choose one: gain a Copper in hand, or gain an Estate in hand.
Choose three of the following: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, +1 Buy.  (The choices don't have to be different.)
--
(Rules clarification:  Like with Pawn, you have to choose all three before drawing any cards.)
The first part, your opponent will rarely want them so it's not a drawback until they do want them where it's a big drawback.  So I don't like it as the drawback.

Quote
Nectarine
$3 - Action
The player to your left reveals two cards costing more than $0 from his hand. Name one.
Gain a card of the same price as the named card.
--
(Rule clarification: If he have less than two cards costing more than $0, he reveal his hand, and you gain no benefit.)
It's a cross between workshop and smugglers.  That in itself is enough for a pass.

Quote
Pineapple
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Each other player may trash a card from his hand. If anyone does, +$3. If no one does, you may trash a card from your hand, +$2 if you do.
This seems strong.  A non-terminal gold (assuming someone trashes) is strong for $5.  And if you trash yourself, +$2 for a non-terminal trasher is strong.

Quote
Elderberry
$3* - Action
+1 Action
+1 Card
Each other player may trash a card from hand.  If a [This Card] is in play, +1 VP for each card trashed.
--
If another card that allows trashing on play is in the kingdom, this card costs $6.
I really don't like this card.  At all.  Sorry :P

Quote
Dragonfruit
$5 - Treasure
Worth $3
Each other player may trash a card from his hand.
I like this.  It matches up nicely with Contraband / Cache as Gold for $5 with drawback.  I also like that the drawback is on play rather than on-gain.

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Papaya
$5 - Action
Gain a Gold in hand. Discard 2 cards. Every other player may gain a Silver in hand.
This is Horse Traders.  But without a +Buy.  And you give your opponent +$2.  And you don't get a reaction.  Can you say W-E-A-K.  Basically you get $3 for three cards (3/3 = $1 per card), and your opponent gets $2 that doesn't take up a slot in their hand.  Passsss.

Quote
Kumquat
$5 - Action
+$3
Each other player may gain 2 coppers, putting one into their hand.
I like this card.  But then again, I like all cards dealing with copper that are not named Mountebank.

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Huckleberry
$6 - Action
+$2
+1 Buy
+$1 per differently named action card you have in play (including this).
When you play this card, each other player may place a card on top of his deck, or gain a Copper, putting it into his hand.
Reallllllly good.  I mean KC-This guarantees +$12, which is (as far as I know) the best yet.  And the draw back is pretty so-so.  Putting a card back to leave you with 4 cards is more than often bad for them (see - ghost ship) and gaining a copper is alright, but not super strong.

Quote
Carambola
$4 - Action
+$3
Clockwise starting from the player on your left, each player chooses one: +1 VP; +1 Card; gain a Silver; trash a card from hand. No player may choose the same option as any previous player.
Yeah, I don't like the feel of this card.  But it might work out to be balanced, just too much going on to tell without playing it.
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Polk5440

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2012, 08:19:18 pm »
0

Gooseberry: uber-powered for you. I mean, stables with an extra card, or stables with a buy (or rarely a naked buy). And then everyone else can... half-stables? Hmmm, I guess this is too good.

It's a full Stables for your opponents, right? They don't have to play the Stables card. When you play Stables, then discard a Treasure you are down 2 cards, then draw 3, netting 1 card. Here you don't have to play Stables, just discard a Treasure and draw 2, netting 1 card.
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2012, 09:17:58 pm »
0

Apple
$5 - Action
+$1
Trash a card from your hand.
Draw up to 5 cards in hand.
Each other player may put a card from their hand on top of their deck.

Trade of all Jacks?  The interaction seems a little weak on most boards.  I'm not sure this is worth $5.

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Orange
$4 - Action
+2 Cards
Name a card. Each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck. If the named card is revealed, +1 Action, +$1.
--
(Rules clarification: After the reveal, the card is returned to the bottom of his deck.)

Not a fan of the reveal the bottom card of the deck.  Also, what happens in multiplayer?  Do you get the bonus for each named card?  Still seems weak.

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Strawberry
$5 - Action
+3 Cards
Reveal your hand and trash two Copper cards. If you do, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand. Each other player may trash a Copper from their hand or gain a Copper, putting it into their hand.

Smithy meets Trading Post, but only on Coppers.  This could be an interesting reaction to itself.  I could see playing a mirror where my opponent does this and I'm short a copper, gain a copper in hand to make it into silver.  These things tend to work out better in my mind than in practice though...

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Pear
$5 - Action
The player to your left chooses one for you to receive:
+$4, +1 Buy
+2 Cards, +1 Action
+2 VPs

This is fun.  It might be even more fun if there were just two options.  I'd prefer the $4, +1 Buy versus +2 VP.

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Banana
$3 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain a card costing up to $6, placing it on top of your deck.
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained.
A super Feast where everyone eats.  Topdecking rather than just gaining seems a little too symmetric for my taste.

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Plum
$5 - Action
+2 VP
Discard down to 2 cards in hand. Gain a Silver, putting it in hand.
Each other player may trash up to two cards in hand.

I'm not sure how to think about this one.  Lots of silvers end up in deck with repeated play, but discarding down to 2 + a Silver seems pretty harsh.  Plus, the externality is strong.

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Apricot
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards from your hand. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
Each other player with at least 5 cards may discard his hand and then draw 5 cards.

Possibly too strong pairing with Minion where the externality won't help.

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Grapefruit
$3 - Action
+$2
You may trash all the cards in the [This Card] mat.
Each player (including you) chooses one: put a card from his hand into the [This Card] mat; or gain a card from the [This Card] mat and put it into his hand
--
(Rules clarification: All cards on the [This Card] mat are visible to all players at all times.)

I don't see what is exciting about this.

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Honeydew
$6 - Action
+2 Cards
You may trash 3 random cards from your hand. If you do, gain a Province, putting it on top of your deck.
Every other player may trash two random cards from their hand. If they do, they gain a [This Card], Duchy, or Gold of their choice.
I'm not a fan of the "random" trashing.  Feels like chaos.

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Blueberry
$5 - Action
+$4
While this is in play, Victory cards cost +$1 and each other player gains a copy of the first non-Victory card you buy during your Buy step.

This seems unnecessarily complicated.  Why make Victory cards more expensive?  I understand $4 is a lot of money, but that's a strange mechanic.

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Fig
$2 - Action
+1 Action
Each player puts a Victory token on a non-empty Supply pile.
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per Victory token on that card's pile and remove those tokens from that pile.

Seems like lots of work for everyone getting the same benefit.

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Grape
$3 - Action
Each player may trash up to 2 cards from his hand. +$1 per 2 cards trashed in total, rounded down.

Interesting, but underpowered in 2P.  Compare to Silver.  Your opponent could just trash one card, and you get +$1 after trashing two from your own hand.  That doesn't seem like enough buying power to compensate for the opportunity cost of forgoing a Silver... not sure though.

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Raspberry
$2 - Action
+1 Card
+$1
Each other player may trash a Treasure from his hand. You gain all of these trashed cards; put them into your hand. If no player trashes a treasure this way, +$1.

Goes with the Copper theme, and in 4P, you could end up with a boatload of copper.  Once the copper runs out (if?), it's still a terminal Silver.  Not bad.

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Cantaloupe
$3 - Action
Choose one: +2 Cards; or +$2; or the player to your left chooses +3 Cards or +$3.
Each player (including you) may trash a card from their hand.  If no one does, each player gains a Silver, placing it on top of their deck.

Lots of independent moving parts.  Not sure I like it.

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Peach
$3 - Action
Trash a card. Gain a card costing up to twice the cost of the trashed card.
Each opponent may gain a card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.

Why is this $3?  Just compare to Remodel.  2-cost: Peach an Estate into a $4, and your opponent can un-Swindle (OK, that's weaker than Remodel, but slightly). 3-cost: Peach an Silver into Gold/Goons... opponent can still un-Swindle (probably about like Remodel's power).  4-cost: Peach a Sea Hag into a Province?  Crazy.  5-cost: Peach a Trading Post into a Province?  Crazy.  6+ cost: Peach a Gold into a Province... could do that with Remodel anyway.  I suppose this would be weaker if Peddler is on the board, but that's one card.

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Clementine
$5 - Action
+5 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand.  The player to your left chooses a card to discard from your hand, then the player to your right does the same.

Seems bad by itself (worse than Envoy by draw/discard), but it is chainable, which makes it strong.

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Boysenberry
$5 - Action
Draw one fewer card than last turn during Cleanup this turn.  Take an extra turn after this one.  During that: Players see all you see.  If you may play a card, do so.  If you may buy or gain a card, do so, selecting one with the highest cost in coins.  The player to your left makes all decisions for you.

Feels like a Zombie version of Possession where you inflict it upon yourself because you gain the cards.  I'd be afraid to play this.

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Tamarind
$3 - Action
+1 Buy
+$1
You may discard 2 cards from your hand. If you do, gain a Treasure costing up to $3, putting it into your hand.
Each other player may discard a card. Each player who does gains a Silver.

Seems weak to me.

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Lemon
$3 - Action
Name an Action card. The player to your left either reveals the named card, or reveals a hand with no such card. If he revealed the named card, you play it. At the start of Clean-up, return the card to the player's hand. If he did not reveal the card you named, you get +1 Card, +1 Action, and gain a Curse.

This would be good in games with topdecking as long as the player to your left topdecks good actions, but I don't see myself gambling on what is in my buddy's hand unless there's no cost.  Once curses are out, OK, but that's a while to wait.  Maybe should cost $2 so you can pick it up with an extra buy late game after the curses are out?

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Lime
$5 - Action
Choose 1: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.
The player to your left chooses 1 for you to receive: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.
Seems very weak for $5.  Aside from the +1 Buy/VP option, this is like Tribute where your opponent gets to choose which one you get.  Tribute never seems to work out for me, and I'd expect it would be worse if I left half of it up to a conscious choice of an opponent rather than chance... especially if they get to choose after me.  This would be much stronger if they chose first, then you get to choose.

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Pomegranate
$2 - Action
+1 Action
+$1
Each other player may discard his hand and draw four cards. If any do, you do too.

I guess this is priced at $2 for a reason.  Minion thyself.  I'm not sure if I like it.

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Guava
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand, then draw a card if he does.
If any other player trashes a card this way, +1 Card.

I'm not excited about this for some reason.  Seems too symmetric to me.

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Cherry
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player may reveal a copy of [This Card] from his hand. If no one does, +$2.

An activated Conspirator if no one contests.  Seems like others would contest, and the rents are competed away.  3P feels silly too.

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Tangerine
$3 - Action
Choose to draw between 2 and 5 cards.  Discard from your hand 2 less cards than you drew.  Your opponents draw and discard a number of cards equal to what you discarded.

Hate to be the grammar nazi, but this should be "2 fewer"... To the content, at the top end, this is an Embassy with no "on gain" penalty, but an on play penalty... at the bottom end, it is a Moat without the reaction.  The flexibility is valuable too.  Even with the penalty, this seems stronger as you draw more cards.  Not sure how much I like it.

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Blackberry
$4 - Action
The player to your left names two cards (the two cards are allowed to be the same). Reveal the top 5 cards in your deck, and pick one: put all instances of cards the player to your left named into your hand, or put all cards that the player to your left did not name into your hand. Discard the rest.

Cumbersome wording ("instances of cards the player to your left named"), and strange middle-ground interaction.  So, would I name all of the Villages so my opponent draws a bunch of Terminals and no way to play them all?  Not sure how to "proscribe" cards... if that's the right word.

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Watermelon
$5 - Action
+2 Cards
+$3
+1 Buy
When you play this card, each other player may exchange a card costing more than $2 from their hand for a copy of a card that you have played this turn, including this one. You may either gain the exchanged cards or trash them.

I'm not sure how strong this is.  Seems strong, but then again, I'm confused.

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Date
$2P - Action
The opponent to your left chooses two: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +$2 and +P.

Not a fan, but to clarify, there are three options here?  +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +$2P... I guess this could be a decent way to pick up valuable alchemy cards like Golem and Possession.

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Currant
$4 - Action
Trash any number of cards from your hand.  +$1 for each card trashed this way.
Each other player may trash up to two cards from his hand.
Gain the trashed cards.

This is silly, no?  As written, "Gain the trashed cards" applied to any cards trashed.  So, you have trasher that doesn't actually get rid of cards in your deck, and you gain your opponent's garbage.  I don't think this is the card's intent, but maybe I'm wrong.

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Kiwi
$5 - Action
+$2
Each other player may reveal an Estate.  If no Estates are revealed, +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1.

This is swingy and I like it.  I don't usually like cards that are swingy, but I bet this one gets better as the game goes along because Estates get lost in big decks or get trashed for deck thinning.  That said, opponents may be unwilling to trash Estates if this is on the board... (maybe?) and that's an effect of the card.

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Gooseberry
$5 - Action
You may discard up to two cards. If you discard a Treasure, +4 Cards, +1 Action.  If you discard two cards, +1 Buy.
Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he does, he draws 2 cards.
Each other player gets a Stables effect (note they didn't have to play the card), and you get a super Stables with a buy option.  I like it.  It's like Council Room meets Stables and Horse Traders.

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Mango
$5 - Action
Each opponent may choose one: gain a Copper in hand, or gain an Estate in hand.
Choose three of the following: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, +1 Buy.  (The choices don't have to be different.)
--
(Rules clarification:  Like with Pawn, you have to choose all three before drawing any cards.)

Flexible.  If you opponent wants a Copper in hand, he can gain it.  Otherwise, no gain, right?  Chaining these could leave your opponent with loads of copper ... but then again, it is so strong you might come away with loads of Provinces...

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Nectarine
$3 - Action
The player to your left reveals two cards costing more than $0 from his hand. Name one.
Gain a card of the same price as the named card.
--
(Rule clarification: If he have less than two cards costing more than $0, he reveal his hand, and you gain no benefit.)

Not an early game card.  Seems limited without major draw ability.

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Pineapple
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Each other player may trash a card from his hand. If anyone does, +$3. If no one does, you may trash a card from your hand, +$2 if you do.
Somewhat interesting interaction.  Late game, I see this card dying... but maybe not.  Seems like this wouldn't trash the bad stuff very quickly.

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Elderberry
$3* - Action
+1 Action
+1 Card
Each other player may trash a card from hand.  If a [This Card] is in play, +1 VP for each card trashed.
--
If another card that allows trashing on play is in the kingdom, this card costs $6.

A trash for benefit amplifier!  You could pile up the Victory chips with one of these and a Forge.  Chapel gets a VP benefit with this, too.  That's probably why there is a dual cost.  I like it.

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Dragonfruit
$5 - Treasure
Worth $3
Each other player may trash a card from his hand.

Interesting take on gimping a Gold.  I like it.

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Papaya
$5 - Action
Gain a Gold in hand. Discard 2 cards. Every other player may gain a Silver in hand.

This seems way too weak for $5.  Either Discard 2 cards or the others' Silver gain would work to offset, but not both.

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Kumquat
$5 - Action
+$3
Each other player may gain 2 coppers, putting one into their hand.

Copper theme.  A terminal Gold + the option for your opponents to gain copper.  It's an interesting idea.  Not sure if opponents will go along with it though...

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Huckleberry
$6 - Action
+$2
+1 Buy
+$1 per differently named action card you have in play (including this).
When you play this card, each other player may place a card on top of his deck, or gain a Copper, putting it into his hand.

Synthetic money to the max + a buy?  This seems really strong.  Perhaps too strong.

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Carambola
$4 - Action
+$3
Clockwise starting from the player on your left, each player chooses one: +1 VP; +1 Card; gain a Silver; trash a card from hand. No player may choose the same option as any previous player.

It would be great if this didn't terminate until someone chooses to trash a card from hand.  Dominion Roulette!  Not sure I like the mechanic.

All in all, there are some interesting cards.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2012, 09:49:50 pm »
0

Looking at everything!  One of them is mine. :)

Apple
$5 - Action
+$1
Trash a card from your hand.
Draw up to 5 cards in hand.
Each other player may put a card from their hand on top of their deck.

Agree with WW and Powerman that this is too weak.

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Orange
$4 - Action
+2 Cards
Name a card. Each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck. If the named card is revealed, +1 Action, +$1.
--
(Rules clarification: After the reveal, the card is returned to the bottom of his deck.)

Too stackable!  My suggested change would be that each player can choose to leave the card on the bottom or move it to the top.

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Strawberry
$5 - Action
+3 Cards
Reveal your hand and trash two Copper cards. If you do, gain a Silver, putting it into your hand. Each other player may trash a Copper from their hand or gain a Copper, putting it into their hand.

This is kind of like Trading Post, but with +cards and a restriction to only trashing Copper.  Seems decent.  I like that this card is on theme, focusing on Copper.

Others read this as allowing opponents to choose neither, but I don't think that's clear.

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Pear
$5 - Action
The player to your left chooses one for you to receive:
+$4, +1 Buy
+2 Cards, +1 Action
+2 VPs

Unlike WW, I don't think this is strictly worse than Lab.  It is definitely far less reliable.  But all the choices are pretty strong for you, making it a tough choice for the other player.

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Banana
$3 - Action
Trash this card.
Gain a card costing up to $6, placing it on top of your deck.
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained.

I have no idea how this card would play.  In games with more than 2 players, you could easily pile out Banana by gaining and topdecking itself 2-3 turns in a row.  Even easier if you can KC or draw the newly topdecked Banana.

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Plum
$5 - Action
+2 VP
Discard down to 2 cards in hand. Gain a Silver, putting it in hand.
Each other player may trash up to two cards in hand.

The unbounded +2VP makes combos like KC-KC-Plumx3 a very possible degenerate state.  It's made even more likely in that it lets other players trash down very quickly.

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Apricot
$4 - Action
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards from your hand. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
Each other player with at least 5 cards may discard his hand and then draw 5 cards.

This is Cellar with the benefit that your hand won't be reduced by 1 when you play it.  But the trade off is that if your hand was bigger more than 5 cards, Apricot is strictly WORSE than Cellar.  The benefit to opponents makes this even weaker.

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Grapefruit
$3 - Action
+$2
You may trash all the cards in the [This Card] mat.
Each player (including you) chooses one: put a card from his hand into the [This Card] mat; or gain a card from the [This Card] mat and put it into his hand
--
(Rules clarification: All cards on the [This Card] mat are visible to all players at all times.)

It doesn't specify what happens at the end of the game.  Do the cards return to the deck, or are they permanently gone?  The only real benefit you get over your opponents when playing the card is the option to trash everything on the mat.  However, that's not really a big deal.  The only time this is helpful is when you can drop a lot of Curses on the mat.  Otherwise, this is far more useful to Island away Victory cards and to Haven cards for another time.  Without the benefit to opponents, I think this is too strong for $3.  With the benefit, it is far too weak.

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Honeydew
$6 - Action
+2 Cards
You may trash 3 random cards from your hand. If you do, gain a Province, putting it on top of your deck.
Every other player may trash two random cards from their hand. If they do, they gain a [This Card], Duchy, or Gold of their choice.

Too random!

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Blueberry
$5 - Action
+$4
While this is in play, Victory cards cost +$1 and each other player gains a copy of the first non-Victory card you buy during your Buy step.

Issue 1: I feel that this is verging on Attack territory in that you can buy a Curse to make everyone else gain one.  Sure, you hurt yourself that way, but it can be worth it.  Maybe you have a Trader in hand!

Issue 2: If you can get multiples of these in play, it is absolutely an attack.  Say you have two in play.  You buy one Curse, everyone else gains two.

Issue 3: If you are buying a VP card, this is a terminal Gold.  +$4, VP cost $1 more.  Terminal Gole for $5 is not so balanced.

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Fig
$2 - Action
+1 Action
Each player puts a Victory token on a non-empty Supply pile.
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do, +1 VP per Victory token on that card's pile and remove those tokens from that pile.

What order do the players put down tokens?

If you plan to trash a card at all, there is no real choice for you -- the only correct move is to put your token on the card you plan to trash.  There is no benefit to waiting until later.  I guess if there is nothing you want to trash in your hand, you'll try to set it on something you'll trash later.  So there's that.

I think it may be interesting for introducing some mind games, but in the end I think it would be easy for non-mirroring opponents to beat this mini-game.  First easy thing is to put a few tokens on something you wouldn't want to trash.  Province, maybe Duchy.  Key cards.  Then, they can put tokens on cards you don't have and probably won't buy.  Unwanted Kingdom cards.  Curse, if there are no Cursers.  Maybe eventually there will be enough tokens on that pile that you'll want to buy the card to try to trash it... but that takes up a buy, and then you have to wait for the reshuffle, and then you have to collide that card with your Fig.

I think this is a neat idea, but it needs tweaking to make it work.

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Grape
$3 - Action
Each player may trash up to 2 cards from his hand. +$1 per 2 cards trashed in total, rounded down.

Pretty strong early-game card with more than 2 players.  With only 2p, I think this is still decent.  It would probably be fine at $2 though.  Maybe if it let you trash up to 4 cards?

As is, I think you can usually still buy Silver after trashing.

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Raspberry
$2 - Action
+1 Card
+$1
Each other player may trash a Treasure from his hand. You gain all of these trashed cards; put them into your hand. If no player trashes a treasure this way, +$1.

More Copper shenanigans! :)

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Cantaloupe
$3 - Action
Choose one: +2 Cards; or +$2; or the player to your left chooses +3 Cards or +$3.
Each player (including you) may trash a card from their hand.  If no one does, each player gains a Silver, placing it on top of their deck.

The first part is too strong.  It's unlikely that the other player will be able to determine whether it is worse for you to get cards or coin, and it's probably not a huge difference either way.  The second part is superfluous and doesn't tie into the first part at all.

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Peach
$3 - Action
Trash a card. Gain a card costing up to twice the cost of the trashed card.
Each opponent may gain a card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.

I like this, though I wonder if the benefit to opponents benefits the potentially huge benefit to you.  $4->$8 is amazing, and your opponents only get a $4 card.  $3->$6 is pretty great too.

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Clementine
$5 - Action
+5 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand.  The player to your left chooses a card to discard from your hand, then the player to your right does the same.

I think this card is fine.  It's an Envoy-Embassy-Stables hybrid.  It needs high quality cards with good deck density to shine.  Non-terminal is not a huge deal if your best actions are discarded.  I think it matters a lot that your opponents choose from your entire hand.

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Boysenberry
$5 - Action
Draw one fewer card than last turn during Cleanup this turn.  Take an extra turn after this one.  During that: Players see all you see.  If you may play a card, do so.  If you may buy or gain a card, do so, selecting one with the highest cost in coins.  The player to your left makes all decisions for you.

I am a little confused.  This card gives instructions on what to play and buy, but then it says the player to your left makes decisions.  I assume that these decisions are only for things not specified by the card.  So you must play actions in hand; if there are multiple, the player to your left picks which one.  If the card you play involves a choice, player to your left decides.  During the buy phase you buy the costliest card you can afford; if there are multiple at the same cost, player to your left decides.

If my reading of the card makes sense, I really like this card.  It is super dangerous to play, more so if your Boysen-possessor is skilled.  The funniest thing is if multiples of these get played (probably on those subsequent turns).  You could take 5 turns in a row, with the last few turns resulting in you buying Curses.

It might need to say "but not less than 0 cards".  If your opponent makes you play KC-Boysenberry...

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Tamarind
$3 - Action
+1 Buy
+$1
You may discard 2 cards from your hand. If you do, gain a Treasure costing up to $3, putting it into your hand.
Each other player may discard a card. Each player who does gains a Silver.

I can't envision the intended strategy to this card.  As worded, your opponents always have the opportunity to gain the Silver, no matter what your choice is.  That's a huge benefit to opponents.  Without this, I could maybe see this as a flexible way to leverage extra Silver out of a poor hand, and otherwise get some +buy if you are desperate.  But the benefit to opponents is too much.

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Lemon
$3 - Action
Name an Action card. The player to your left either reveals the named card, or reveals a hand with no such card. If he revealed the named card, you play it. At the start of Clean-up, return the card to the player's hand. If he did not reveal the card you named, you get +1 Card, +1 Action, and gain a Curse.

I'm not a fan of this one.  I'm not sure how easy it would be to guess correctly, but it's still unreliable.  If you guess wrong, this card is a cantrip self-curser, eep.  Even if you guess right, it's really only worth it if the card you pulled cost $5 or more.  $3 or less, you could have just bought that card yourself.  $4, you probably still could have bought it yourself.

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Lime
$5 - Action
Choose 1: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.
The player to your left chooses 1 for you to receive: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.

I would have thought this strong, but WW makes a good point about it.

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Pomegranate
$2 - Action
+1 Action
+$1
Each other player may discard his hand and draw four cards. If any do, you do too.

This actually sounds OK for a $2 card, especially if your deck is mostly cantrips.  The worry is that an opponent will Minion you when you don't want to lose your hand, but you can build your deck to take advantage of it.  And you can always make it a mind-game.  I like it.

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Guava
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each player (including you) may trash a card from his hand, then draw a card if he does.
If any other player trashes a card this way, +1 Card.

This seems a little too strong to me.  It is like Upgrade, except you draw an extra card instead of gaining something.  In the case of Copper/Curse trashing, this is stronger.  Yes, the card gives a benefit to opponents, but that comes with another bonus for you.  Not sure if it's too strong for $4 or if it would be good at $5.

Other than that, I like it.

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Cherry
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player may reveal a copy of [This Card] from his hand. If no one does, +$2.

I agree with WW on this.

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Tangerine
$3 - Action
Choose to draw between 2 and 5 cards.  Discard from your hand 2 less cards than you drew.  Your opponents draw and discard a number of cards equal to what you discarded.

Grammar nitpick: it should be "2 fewer cards".  (ninja'd on this while still writing up this post.)

WW points out a simpler wording that is equivalent though.  Make this "+2 cards, draw up to 3 cards and discard the same number; every other player does the same".

This can be an Embassy that gives your opponents huge sifting.  Not sure if the benefit to others  offsets how strong this card is for you.  Games with this will probably be super fast.  I think this should cost $4.

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Blackberry
$4 - Action
The player to your left names two cards (the two cards are allowed to be the same). Reveal the top 5 cards in your deck, and pick one: put all instances of cards the player to your left named into your hand, or put all cards that the player to your left did not name into your hand. Discard the rest.

Hmm... at first read, I liked this mini-game.  I am not sure now.  I think I'd like it better if the cards were revealed before the player named the cards, because you should be able to get what you want anyway.

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Watermelon
$5 - Action
+2 Cards
+$3
+1 Buy
When you play this card, each other player may exchange a card costing more than $2 from their hand for a copy of a card that you have played this turn, including this one. You may either gain the exchanged cards or trash them.

So, they can't get any Treasure from you unless you played Black Market.  What order do the players make the exchange?  If it's a 4p game and you only play this card, only one player can exchange?  Do the other players put their new card into their hands?  Does it count as a gain for them?  Can you decide whether to gain or trash each exchanged card one by one, or is it all or nothing?

I think this would create a lot of rules confusion, and could also be a tracking nightmare.  It's one thing to remember how many MVs you've trashed this turn.  Its another to have all of your played cards disappear.

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Date
$2P - Action
The opponent to your left chooses two: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +$2 and +P.

Always +2P.  Well, maybe +4 actions sometimes.

(Powerman points out that it looks like the +$2 and +P are together.  That makes this card better, but still not great... It'll probably be +4 Actions always.)

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Currant
$4 - Action
Trash any number of cards from your hand.  +$1 for each card trashed this way.
Each other player may trash up to two cards from his hand.
Gain the trashed cards.

This seems really bad to me.  Assuming that you don't gain the cards you trashed yourself (because if you do, that's horrid), sure, you can trash 4 cards and get +$4.  With three players, you could gain just as many cards as you trash.  With four, your trashing just ends up junking your deck more.

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Kiwi
$5 - Action
+$2
Each other player may reveal an Estate.  If no Estates are revealed, +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1.

I think this card is interesting, but it swings a lot depending on the board.  If there is trashing available and your opponents trash Estates, this card is AMAZING.  It is GM with an extra +$1 instead of +buy, for $5 without Copper-restriction.  If your opponents don't trash, then it's just swingy.  I think the bonuses need to be moved around to make the differences less drastic.

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Gooseberry
$5 - Action
You may discard up to two cards. If you discard a Treasure, +4 Cards, +1 Action.  If you discard two cards, +1 Buy.
Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he does, he draws 2 cards.

In this case, I think the bonus to opponents balances out the balance you get, as powerful as it is.  The only thing is that Militia, Ghost Ship, Goons, etc. would erase a large part of the benefit to opponents, wow.

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Mango
$5 - Action
Each opponent may choose one: gain a Copper in hand, or gain an Estate in hand.
Choose three of the following: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, +1 Buy.  (The choices don't have to be different.)
--
(Rules clarification:  Like with Pawn, you have to choose all three before drawing any cards.)

I assume the opponent can choose neither, since it says "may choose one".  Otherwise, it is an attack.

The AP potential here is hair-raising.

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Nectarine
$3 - Action
The player to your left reveals two cards costing more than $0 from his hand. Name one.
Gain a card of the same price as the named card.
--
(Rule clarification: If he have less than two cards costing more than $0, he reveal his hand, and you gain no benefit.)

Weaker than Smugglers, I think.  Probably still OK, but I personally don't like Smugglers. :P

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Pineapple
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Each other player may trash a card from his hand. If anyone does, +$3. If no one does, you may trash a card from your hand, +$2 if you do.

Interesting card.  I have no idea how this would play.

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Elderberry
$3* - Action
+1 Action
+1 Card
Each other player may trash a card from hand.  If a [This Card] is in play, +1 VP for each card trashed.
--
If another card that allows trashing on play is in the kingdom, this card costs $6.

(Nitpick: +Card comes before +Action.)

This seems really weak to me.  You have to play 2 to get any benefit.  Probably what happens is that your opponents will trash something on the first play and then nothing on the second play.  Net result is that you let everyone else trash a card for no benefit to yourself.

Or maybe they have 2 Curses in hand, so they do trash the second time.  You get +1VP, they also get +1VP and one less junk card in their deck.

Maybe the intention was that it would be +1VP for each card trashed this turn, including on the first play of the card and other trashers.  That might be the reason for the alternate cost?  If so, it needs to be reworded:

"While any [This Card]s are in play, +1VP for each card trashed."

This preserves what appears to be an intention to disallow stacking multiples of these.  Otherwise, just "while this is in play" will suffice.  I'd prefer it if a single cost was made, because the alternate cost is weird.  Maybe put it at $5 or $6 and let the one who played it trash cards too.

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Dragonfruit
$5 - Treasure
Worth $3
Each other player may trash a card from his hand.

Seems OK to me.

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Papaya
$5 - Action
Gain a Gold in hand. Discard 2 cards. Every other player may gain a Silver in hand.

Like HT, but with Gold gain, no +buy and a big benefit to opponents.  Seems not that bad to me, though the benefit to others is iffy.  It shouldn't gain to their hands.  I still think this is decent because gaining the Gold is often better than simple +$3.

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Kumquat
$5 - Action
+$3
Each other player may gain 2 coppers, putting one into their hand.

Seems OK, and is on the Copper theme. :P

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Huckleberry
$6 - Action
+$2
+1 Buy
+$1 per differently named action card you have in play (including this).
When you play this card, each other player may place a card on top of his deck, or gain a Copper, putting it into his hand.

This gives too much coin, doesn't it?  I'm not sure.  I don't like the benefit to opponents -- should pick one thing and stick to it, rather than giving the choice.

Apparently people are interpreting this such that the player can choose neither, but I don't read this one that way.

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Carambola
$4 - Action
+$3
Clockwise starting from the player on your left, each player chooses one: +1 VP; +1 Card; gain a Silver; trash a card from hand. No player may choose the same option as any previous player.

Terminal gold at $4 is too good.  And yeah, weird in games with more than 4p... also, with less than 4, do you continue around the circle until all options are taken?
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2012, 10:07:26 pm »
0

Pear
$5 - Action
The player to your left chooses one for you to receive:
+$4, +1 Buy
+2 Cards, +1 Action
+2 VPs

I was thinking of submitting an idea very similar to this but I just couldn't figure out how to make it work; it always seemed Contraband-ish in that it would be very hard to use.

WW: Can you explain what you mean that this is "strictly worse" than lab?  It seems to me that would only be true if +$4/+1 buy and +2 VPs were both worse than lab 100% of the time, which doesn't seem to me to be the case.

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Grapefruit
$3 - Action
+$2
You may trash all the cards in the [This Card] mat.
Each player (including you) chooses one: put a card from his hand into the [This Card] mat; or gain a card from the [This Card] mat and put it into his hand
--
(Rules clarification: All cards on the [This Card] mat are visible to all players at all times.)

And this is another idea I wanted to pursue that I couldn't figure out -- some card with a communal mat where cards would be put and taken away by all players.

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also, with less than 4, do you continue around the circle until all options are taken?

I don't see why that would be the case; every other card that has "each player" only has each player do something (or have something done to them) once.  There's no extra wording on this card that would suggest going around again.  (In 5 or 6 player games the standard "do everything you can" rules would suggest to me that the 5th and 6th players gain nothing.)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 10:12:22 pm by yudantaiteki »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2012, 10:11:11 pm »
0

Quote
Grapefruit
$3 - Action
+$2
You may trash all the cards in the [This Card] mat.
Each player (including you) chooses one: put a card from his hand into the [This Card] mat; or gain a card from the [This Card] mat and put it into his hand
--
(Rules clarification: All cards on the [This Card] mat are visible to all players at all times.)

And this is another idea I wanted to pursue that I couldn't figure out -- some card with a communal mat where cards would be put and taken away by all players.

Wait, it's a communal mat?  Weird... if that's the case, I don't see why anyone would ever choose to trash everything.  Also, this might have to be considered an attack.  Even though it happens to everyone, it could still force the other player to either put down a good card or gain a crappy one.  Though maybe it's like Masquerade enough that it's not an attack... hm.  In this case, I don't know.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 10:12:21 pm by eHalcyon »
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2012, 10:13:06 pm »
0

Maybe I misinterpreted it; if it's not a communal mat I would have expected "your mat" instead of "the mat".
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dnkywin

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2012, 10:14:38 pm »
0

Pear
$5 - Action
The player to your left chooses one for you to receive:
+$4, +1 Buy
+2 Cards, +1 Action
+2 VPs

I was thinking of submitting an idea very similar to this but I just couldn't figure out how to make it work; it always seemed Contraband-ish in that it would be very hard to use.

WW: Can you explain what you mean that this is "strictly worse" than lab?  It seems to me that would only be true if +$4/+1 buy and +2 VPs were both worse than lab 100% of the time, which doesn't seem to me to be the case.
Well, this is assuming that the person to your left never wants to help you, but the person to your left can always pick the lab option. (Just like how a card that says, "Pick One: +2 Cards +1 Action, or discard a card" is strictly better than lab, even though discarding a card is almost always inferior to a lab.)

Hmmm, as a general comment about the cards, many of the other-player interactions look forced (e.g. Apple)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 10:19:09 pm by dnkywin »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2012, 10:14:58 pm »
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Maybe I misinterpreted it; if it's not a communal mat I would have expected "your mat" instead of "the mat".

I think you are reading it right.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2012, 10:30:56 pm »
0

Pear
$5 - Action
The player to your left chooses one for you to receive:
+$4, +1 Buy
+2 Cards, +1 Action
+2 VPs

I was thinking of submitting an idea very similar to this but I just couldn't figure out how to make it work; it always seemed Contraband-ish in that it would be very hard to use.

WW: Can you explain what you mean that this is "strictly worse" than lab?  It seems to me that would only be true if +$4/+1 buy and +2 VPs were both worse than lab 100% of the time, which doesn't seem to me to be the case.
Well, this is assuming that the person to your left never wants to help you, but the person to your left can always pick the lab option. (Just like how a card that says, "Pick One: +2 Cards +1 Action, or discard a card" is strictly better than lab, even though discarding a card is almost always inferior to a lab.)

Sorry, maybe I'm being stupid this morning, but I still don't get it.  If the left player always picks the lab, then it's exactly equal to lab.  If they pick the other options, it's only "strictly worse" if the options are 100% worse than the lab option...right?
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zahlman

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2012, 10:36:21 pm »
0

Commenting on some later cards (my card is before this point):

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Peach
$3 - Action
Trash a card. Gain a card costing up to twice the cost of the trashed card.
Each opponent may gain a card costing up to the cost of the trashed card.

Why is this $3?  Just compare to Remodel.  2-cost: Peach an Estate into a $4, and your opponent can un-Swindle (OK, that's weaker than Remodel, but slightly). 3-cost: Peach an Silver into Gold/Goons... opponent can still un-Swindle (probably about like Remodel's power).  4-cost: Peach a Sea Hag into a Province?  Crazy.  5-cost: Peach a Trading Post into a Province?  Crazy.  6+ cost: Peach a Gold into a Province... could do that with Remodel anyway.  I suppose this would be weaker if Peddler is on the board, but that's one card.

When you Peach the Sea Hag into a Province, opponent gains an Island. When you Peach the Trading Post, opponent gains a Duchy. So really your net gain is 3VP for the Trading Post, 4 for the Hag (except that opponent might actually get to play the Island and improve his deck by -2 greens). If you Bishoped the Trading Post, you'd get +$1 in addition.

So I'm not so sure it's that crazy. But yeah, overall it's probably comparable enough to Remodel to justify a $4 price tag. And yeah you obviously wouldn't want to use it on Gold in a Province game (and it wouldn't necessarily be stellar in a Colony game either).

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Clementine
$5 - Action
+5 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand.  The player to your left chooses a card to discard from your hand, then the player to your right does the same.

Seems bad by itself (worse than Envoy by draw/discard), but it is chainable, which makes it strong.

My naive analysis: Clementine : Lab :: Envoy : Smithy, roughly, so it should be balanced.

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Boysenberry
$5 - Action
Draw one fewer card than last turn during Cleanup this turn.  Take an extra turn after this one.  During that: Players see all you see.  If you may play a card, do so.  If you may buy or gain a card, do so, selecting one with the highest cost in coins.  The player to your left makes all decisions for you.

Feels like a Zombie version of Possession where you inflict it upon yourself because you gain the cards.  I'd be afraid to play this.

This is just so hard to like and so hard to imagine planning a strategy around.

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Lime
$5 - Action
Choose 1: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.
The player to your left chooses 1 for you to receive: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +2 Coins; +1 Buy and +1 VP.
Seems very weak for $5.  Aside from the +1 Buy/VP option, this is like Tribute where your opponent gets to choose which one you get.  Tribute never seems to work out for me, and I'd expect it would be worse if I left half of it up to a conscious choice of an opponent rather than chance... especially if they get to choose after me.  This would be much stronger if they chose first, then you get to choose.

Opponent is only choosing half the benefit, and furthermore you no longer risk drawing 2 identical cards. Good point about the order of choice, but with the opposite order, it's practically a Trusty Steed.

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Cherry
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Each other player may reveal a copy of [This Card] from his hand. If no one does, +$2.

An activated Conspirator if no one contests.  Seems like others would contest, and the rents are competed away.  3P feels silly too.

But you have to buy it if others do in order to have a chance of contesting it, and it's way too strong if uncontested. Some people like this kind of prisoner's dilemma mechanic.

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Quote
Tangerine
$3 - Action
Choose to draw between 2 and 5 cards.  Discard from your hand 2 less cards than you drew.  Your opponents draw and discard a number of cards equal to what you discarded.

Hate to be the grammar nazi, but this should be "2 fewer"... To the content, at the top end, this is an Embassy with no "on gain" penalty, but an on play penalty... at the bottom end, it is a Moat without the reaction.  The flexibility is valuable too.  Even with the penalty, this seems stronger as you draw more cards.  Not sure how much I like it.

I think it has too many moving parts. A simplified equivalent would be something like

+2 Cards
Choose a number between 0 and 3 inclusive. Each player, including you, draws that many cards, then discards that many cards.

But that still sounds really awkward by Dominion standards.

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Quote
Date
$2P - Action
The opponent to your left chooses two: +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +$2 and +P.

Not a fan, but to clarify, there are three options here?  +2 Cards; +2 Actions; +$2P... I guess this could be a decent way to pick up valuable alchemy cards like Golem and Possession.

That was my understanding of the card. It seems weak without another good P-cost card on board, since opponent would always include the $2P option - which just lets you pick up a free Date if you have the +buy; it'd be hard to play multiples of this without a real engine that doesn't need support from Date anyway. If Golem/Possession is available, this suddenly becomes ridiculous, because opponent suddenly either has to help you get a bunch of those nasty cards, or let you play a Trusty Steed for the price of an Apothecary - call me crazy, but I think that's a damn good deal.

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Quote
Currant
$4 - Action
Trash any number of cards from your hand.  +$1 for each card trashed this way.
Each other player may trash up to two cards from his hand.
Gain the trashed cards.

This is silly, no?  As written, "Gain the trashed cards" applied to any cards trashed.  So, you have trasher that doesn't actually get rid of cards in your deck, and you gain your opponent's garbage.  I don't think this is the card's intent, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm assuming the intent is that you only gain cards that were trashed by opponents. But even then it seems kinda wonky.

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Quote
Kiwi
$5 - Action
+$2
Each other player may reveal an Estate.  If no Estates are revealed, +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1.

This is swingy and I like it.  I don't usually like cards that are swingy, but I bet this one gets better as the game goes along because Estates get lost in big decks or get trashed for deck thinning.  That said, opponents may be unwilling to trash Estates if this is on the board... (maybe?) and that's an effect of the card.

A cantrip Gold is an amazing benefit when it activates. When it doesn't - well, I'm pretty sure there's a reason Tournament gives you the +Action unconditionally.

That said, I do kinda like the idea of a card that (a) adds the "threat is stronger than the execution" principle to the game, by making players unwilling to trash Estates early just by being in the kingdom; (b) is a power-$5 that's stronger later on except perhaps in really desperate alt-VP rushes (Estate/SR etc.).

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Gooseberry
$5 - Action
You may discard up to two cards. If you discard a Treasure, +4 Cards, +1 Action.  If you discard two cards, +1 Buy.
Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he does, he draws 2 cards.
Each other player gets a Stables effect (note they didn't have to play the card), and you get a super Stables with a buy option.  I like it.  It's like Council Room meets Stables and Horse Traders.

Can't really explain why, but I don't like it. Maybe I'm finding it too complicated.

Quote
Quote
Mango
$5 - Action
Each opponent may choose one: gain a Copper in hand, or gain an Estate in hand.
Choose three of the following: +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, +1 Buy.  (The choices don't have to be different.)
--
(Rules clarification:  Like with Pawn, you have to choose all three before drawing any cards.)

Flexible.  If you opponent wants a Copper in hand, he can gain it.  Otherwise, no gain, right?  Chaining these could leave your opponent with loads of copper ... but then again, it is so strong you might come away with loads of Provinces...

I previously proposed this as a $6 without the externality. I'd want to make it weaker, something like: "Each opponent may gain a card costing up to $2, putting it in his hand".

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Quote
Nectarine
$3 - Action
The player to your left reveals two cards costing more than $0 from his hand. Name one.
Gain a card of the same price as the named card.
--
(Rule clarification: If he have less than two cards costing more than $0, he reveal his hand, and you gain no benefit.)

Not an early game card.  Seems limited without major draw ability.

The clarification seems just plain wrong per the usual principles of Dominion. If opponent has no nonzero-cost cards, sure. But if he has exactly one, then by the "do all you can" principle, he should show it, compelling you to name it.

Anyway, the obvious comparison is to Workshop. At first glance, it's obviously weaker early and stronger late. But I think overall it is too weak. On BM boards, it will probably just gain Silver almost always. On boards that build strong draw-your-deck engines, it'll probably still get Silver (or, like, Village) most of the time. If it's the kind of board that admits engines that hate Silver, then sure it'll get a lot of engine components, but it'll still be pretty rare that it gets a $5 card. I could see desperately buying this on a board with GM and heavy trashing, though, hoping to luck out.

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Quote
Pineapple
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Each other player may trash a card from his hand. If anyone does, +$3. If no one does, you may trash a card from your hand, +$2 if you do.
Somewhat interesting interaction.  Late game, I see this card dying... but maybe not.  Seems like this wouldn't trash the bad stuff very quickly.

Might be political. In what order do the opponents make their decision?

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Quote
Elderberry
$3* - Action
+1 Action
+1 Card
Each other player may trash a card from hand.  If a [This Card] is in play, +1 VP for each card trashed.
--
If another card that allows trashing on play is in the kingdom, this card costs $6.

A trash for benefit amplifier!  You could pile up the Victory chips with one of these and a Forge.  Chapel gets a VP benefit with this, too.  That's probably why there is a dual cost.  I like it.

I share the objection to the alt cost, just why. Also, checking for "cards that allow trashing on play" sounds tedious. Also, I have no idea how the "if an Elderberry is in play" part could possibly not be satisfied, given that you just played one.

Quote
Quote
Dragonfruit
$5 - Treasure
Worth $3
Each other player may trash a card from his hand.

Interesting take on gimping a Gold.  I like it.

I do too.

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Quote
Papaya
$5 - Action
Gain a Gold in hand. Discard 2 cards. Every other player may gain a Silver in hand.

This seems way too weak for $5.  Either Discard 2 cards or the others' Silver gain would work to offset, but not both.

Agreed. It seems to be combining aspects of Explorer and Governor and looking pretty awful in comparison.

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Quote
Kumquat
$5 - Action
+$3
Each other player may gain 2 coppers, putting one into their hand.

Copper theme.  A terminal Gold + the option for your opponents to gain copper.  It's an interesting idea.  Not sure if opponents will go along with it though...

I like it. It seems like the general consensus is that a vanilla terminal Gold is slightly too strong for $5, and this is a slight nerf: opponents have an option to take a key coin now in exchange for bloating their deck with two Coppers.

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Quote
Huckleberry
$6 - Action
+$2
+1 Buy
+$1 per differently named action card you have in play (including this).
When you play this card, each other player may place a card on top of his deck, or gain a Copper, putting it into his hand.

Synthetic money to the max + a buy?  This seems really strong.  Perhaps too strong.

It's hard to build an engine that uses several different cards. And it's a $6. That said, it's at least a terminal Gold+buy for you, and fairly easy to pump up to terminal Platinum. As for the externality, it seems pretty rare that opponents would want to topdeck something from hand (though Treasure Map comes to mind); the copper option is nicer than the one on Kumquat, but still not a huge boon to opponents.

I'd rather take the base $2 down to $1 or even $0, and then re-assess what the cost should be.

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Quote
Carambola
$4 - Action
+$3
Clockwise starting from the player on your left, each player chooses one: +1 VP; +1 Card; gain a Silver; trash a card from hand. No player may choose the same option as any previous player.

It would be great if this didn't terminate until someone chooses to trash a card from hand.  Dominion Roulette!  Not sure I like the mechanic.

As someone else noted, doesn't work so well in 5-6 player games. Also, as written, you get to choose an option as well, which would make this too strong; unless there's a real difference in value between the options (and taking into consideration that different players will value them differently), you're basically getting a terminal Gold for $4. I'm pretty sure "each player chooses one" was intended to be "each other player chooses one".
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zahlman

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2012, 10:39:11 pm »
0

Sorry, maybe I'm being stupid this morning, but I still don't get it.  If the left player always picks the lab, then it's exactly equal to lab.  If they pick the other options, it's only "strictly worse" if the options are 100% worse than the lab option...right?

A card that says "You choose: Lab, or something else" is strictly better than Lab because of the choice: it can never be a worse thing to have in hand than Lab (because if Lab is preferable to "something else" at that moment, you just choose Lab), and it can sometimes be a better thing (because if "something else" is preferable, you can choose it).

By the same logic applied in reverse, a card that says "Your opponent chooses: Lab, or something else" is strictly worse than Lab (assuming that your opponent has the goal of making the card as bad as possible for you, which is a pretty safe assumption).

Wait, it's a communal mat?  Weird... if that's the case, I don't see why anyone would ever choose to trash everything.

I don't see why either, and that's enough reason for me to pass on the card, really.

Quote
Also, this might have to be considered an attack.  Even though it happens to everyone, it could still force the other player to either put down a good card or gain a crappy one.  Though maybe it's like Masquerade enough that it's not an attack... hm.  In this case, I don't know.

I don't think it's really an attack. I do think it's the only thing that makes the card interesting. Other than that, it's just a dumping ground for everyone to trash starting Coppers and Estates at the same rate... or put another way, a terminal Silver version of Bishop. And, you know, the VP really go a long way towards making Bishop interesting.

I hope the true name for this card is "Commons" (as in tragedy of).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 10:42:30 pm by zahlman »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2012, 10:39:29 pm »
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Some comments.
Orange, you only get the benefit once in multiplayer. Why would you get it more than once?
Strawberry is clearly supposed to have the mandatory trashing. Why not? It is too strong with optional.
Pear is still strictly worse than lab guys. I mean, oh, they give you lab most of the time. Well, if they always give you lab, it's lab. If you get to the point where lab is clearly better than another option, they give you that. But because they have the option to make it lab, OR something else, it must be at best lab, and possibly worse. I mean, you could have it be 'they choose: lab or gain 3 provinces', and that is strictly worse than lab - because they always give you lab until it is clear it's worse, which happens more often than never, so in those rare instances, it is worse than lab, and it is never better than lab unless your opponent plays poorly, ergo it's worse than lab.
I don't understand why Grapefruit is bad against want-bloat strategies - you can always trash all the cards on the mat to not give your opp a chance to gain anything other than what you junk right now. And if them getting a copper or estate is so much better than you getting rid of it, well, why are you buying this at all, and not going for the bloat strat? I mean, that is a mediocre bloat strat to start with, if this is all the help it's getting.

Peach... peach, peach, peach. I don't see why trashing 3s with it is so hot. I do think the comparison to remodel is apt, but let's break it down. It is definitely WORSE than remodel if you trash something costing 2 or less, because you can't get anything better, and your opponent CAN get something better than nothing, if they want to. Trashing a $3, you would have to turn it into a $6 to not have it still be worse than remodel, and you can do that, but what 6 are you getting? Sometimes there will be something (cough cough goons), but usually, it is a delayed mine, or an expand to turn silver into gold, which is quite good for a 3.... except, your opponent can grab a silver or peach in return. So that is not so great. Turning 4s into provinces is clearly the big power here. 5s go into province, but the opponent can then get a 5 - and at least duchy really mitigates your big province gain. And if you 6+-> province, they get to gain at least a gold or duchy, which they couldn't do if you remodeled. Now it's cheaper. But if it cost $4, it would actually probably be better, because that will help you get the estate-> 4 cost -> province train rolling, as peach is itself a 4-cost.  Well, anyway, it still seems weaker than remodel to me, and probably too weak.

Clementine I have rethought, and it seems not so good now, because it will take a LONG time to be able to chain these things - you need 4. Still seems fairly good, but actually reasonable maybe.
Lemon, I don't understand how this combos with bureaucrat (unless they have great hall/island/nobles I guess), or especially cutpurse. Still seems weak.
Blackberry I have re-thought as well. I mean, it is terminal. So it probably compares to, like, envoy. The split up your treasures, name silver and silver usually, and it seems a weaker envoy. Now sometimes it won't be, but I think most often, that would be what you get. In a deck with lots of actions, well, you'd knock out their villages, except you can't - they can always take whatever you try to deny them. So better for engines than envoy. Which makes me like it. To be clear, the order here is 1) they name cards, 2) you reveal cards and separate into piles, 3) you choose a pile to draw
Date - ah, it looks like it IS 2 AND potion. So this makes it most often actions and the cash, which is comparable to festival, but almost certainly worse. Pretty meh - compare it to the other 2p cards, it looks weaker across the board. I assume the choices must be different.
Currant, I have to assume, was intended to have you gain only your opponent's trashed cards. As is, it's trash itself.
You guys are right about the full stables on Gooseberry. This is a pretty big boon for the opponent, which make me think it might be UNDERpowered if anything, but probably decently good.
Mango, I missed the word 'may'. So of course this is a benefit for them, seems an interesting to good card.

Elderberry, I think some confusion is happening here. As written, you only get the bonus from cards trashed VIA elderberries. To have it work for other trashed cards, too, you would need it to be a 'while this is in play' or 'while at least one copy of elderberry is in play' or something - at least something that's below a line.

Papaya, you have to realize, they do get to keep that gold later, which is not negligible. I mean, still seems weak, but not THAT weak.
Huckleberry - I agree it looks strong, because it's at least a terminal gold with buy, and most often getting 4 or 5, and incredibly good for engines, BUT... I mean, it costs 6. And is it really so clearly better than Goons? I think not.

angrybirds

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2012, 10:44:31 pm »
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Quote
So, they can't get any Treasure from you unless you played Black Market.  What order do the players make the exchange?  If it's a 4p game and you only play this card, only one player can exchange?  Do the other players put their new card into their hands?  Does it count as a gain for them?  Can you decide whether to gain or trash each exchanged card one by one, or is it all or nothing?

I think this would create a lot of rules confusion, and could also be a tracking nightmare.  It's one thing to remember how many MVs you've trashed this turn.  Its another to have all of your played cards disappear.

This isn't my card, but I know who wrote it and I think it needs an explanation.

The person that plays the watermelon doesn't lose his cards from the play area. The opponents exchange their cards in hand with ones from the supply, but the watermelon player can gain the exchanged cards.

Example:

Player one plays a Village, a Witch and a Watermelon.
At this point Player two can exchange a silver for a watermelon from the supply.
Player 1 either gains the silver or it goes in the trash, his choice.

Confusing wording yes.
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2012, 10:48:31 pm »
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Quote
Quote
Elderberry
$3* - Action
+1 Action
+1 Card
Each other player may trash a card from hand.  If a [This Card] is in play, +1 VP for each card trashed.
--
If another card that allows trashing on play is in the kingdom, this card costs $6.

A trash for benefit amplifier!  You could pile up the Victory chips with one of these and a Forge.  Chapel gets a VP benefit with this, too.  That's probably why there is a dual cost.  I like it.

I share the objection to the alt cost, just why. Also, checking for "cards that allow trashing on play" sounds tedious. Also, I have no idea how the "if an Elderberry is in play" part could possibly not be satisfied, given that you just played one.
I think you're reading this differently than I am reading it.  The way I read it, you get +1 VP for any card trashed while this card is in play.  Yes, you get +1 VP for each card opponents trash, but play a Forge after this and trash 4 cards... BAM!  There's +4 VP on top of that.  That seems powerful, but only if you have other trashers.  Maybe I'm misreading that... it's possible this was the intent of the card given the pricing... perhaps a PM to the author is in order to clarify?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 10:49:59 pm by nopawnsintended »
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2012, 10:56:48 pm »
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Peach... peach, peach, peach. I don't see why trashing 3s with it is so hot. I do think the comparison to remodel is apt, but let's break it down. It is definitely WORSE than remodel if you trash something costing 2 or less, because you can't get anything better, and your opponent CAN get something better than nothing, if they want to. Trashing a $3, you would have to turn it into a $6 to not have it still be worse than remodel, and you can do that, but what 6 are you getting? Sometimes there will be something (cough cough goons), but usually, it is a delayed mine, or an expand to turn silver into gold, which is quite good for a 3.... except, your opponent can grab a silver or peach in return. So that is not so great. Turning 4s into provinces is clearly the big power here. 5s go into province, but the opponent can then get a 5 - and at least duchy really mitigates your big province gain. And if you 6+-> province, they get to gain at least a gold or duchy, which they couldn't do if you remodeled. Now it's cheaper. But if it cost $4, it would actually probably be better, because that will help you get the estate-> 4 cost -> province train rolling, as peach is itself a 4-cost.  Well, anyway, it still seems weaker than remodel to me, and probably too weak.

Hmmm... on reading this, I misread Peach.  I read it as giving you an opportunity to "Remodel+" and your opponent an opportunity to "Remodel-"... now, I see that your opponent's remodel benefit involves no trashing of their own cards... and only depends on your trashing.  Sorry for the confusion.

Elderberry, I think some confusion is happening here. As written, you only get the bonus from cards trashed VIA elderberries. To have it work for other trashed cards, too, you would need it to be a 'while this is in play' or 'while at least one copy of elderberry is in play' or something - at least something that's below a line.

Isn't that how it reads?  Taken from the text of the card: "If a [This Card] is in play, +1 VP for each card trashed."
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 11:00:23 pm by nopawnsintended »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2012, 11:36:26 pm »
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Quote
So, they can't get any Treasure from you unless you played Black Market.  What order do the players make the exchange?  If it's a 4p game and you only play this card, only one player can exchange?  Do the other players put their new card into their hands?  Does it count as a gain for them?  Can you decide whether to gain or trash each exchanged card one by one, or is it all or nothing?

I think this would create a lot of rules confusion, and could also be a tracking nightmare.  It's one thing to remember how many MVs you've trashed this turn.  Its another to have all of your played cards disappear.

This isn't my card, but I know who wrote it and I think it needs an explanation.

The person that plays the watermelon doesn't lose his cards from the play area. The opponents exchange their cards in hand with ones from the supply, but the watermelon player can gain the exchanged cards.

Example:

Player one plays a Village, a Witch and a Watermelon.
At this point Player two can exchange a silver for a watermelon from the supply.
Player 1 either gains the silver or it goes in the trash, his choice.

Confusing wording yes.
Maybe that's what he intends, but I am fairly sure that is not what happens as worded. Well, actually, 'exchange' isn't well-defined game-wise.
However, that interpretation just makes this thing even more bananas powerful.

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2012, 11:39:04 pm »
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Elderberry, I think some confusion is happening here. As written, you only get the bonus from cards trashed VIA elderberries. To have it work for other trashed cards, too, you would need it to be a 'while this is in play' or 'while at least one copy of elderberry is in play' or something - at least something that's below a line.

Isn't that how it reads?  Taken from the text of the card: "If a [This Card] is in play, +1 VP for each card trashed."

Yeah, but that text is in the wrong spot. You can't just stick text wherever you want - this is in the place of 'effects-I-get-when-I-play-this'; the phrasing may be fine, but it needs to be below a line.

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Re: Mini-Set Design Contest, Challenge #8: Non-Attack Interaction!
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2012, 02:14:53 am »
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Wait, it's a communal mat?  Weird... if that's the case, I don't see why anyone would ever choose to trash everything.

I don't see why either, and that's enough reason for me to pass on the card, really.

If you have a hand full of good card and the mat contains lots of bad cards and you would like to get the +$2 from the card. There are a lot of "if" though

With same logic, Grapefruit could be a weak attack if played after milita (as the "Masquerade" role)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 02:32:45 am by heatthespurs »
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