Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Combo: sea hag, duchy  (Read 11645 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

methods of rationality

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 102
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Combo: sea hag, duchy
« on: July 22, 2012, 09:06:08 pm »
0

The way this combo works is say you have a sea hag game with bad to no trashing. You buy a sea hag on the first 2 turns and a second pretty soon after. Assuming your opponent buys one as well you know the curse pile will be depleted. Start buying duchies over golds when around 7 Provinces are left in the supply and buy estates over silver with 5 provinces left. You will deplete both piles relatively quickly and since your opponent's deck is so clogged with curses, it will take him a long time to buy provinces - so long, in fact, that you can probably deplete both estates and duchies with 2 or 3 provinces still left in the supply. While your opponent will have more provinces than you, you will more than make up the difference with duchies and estates. And the best part is that once your opponent realizes that your trying to end the game quickly, he cant respond by buying vp without helping you in your goal. You can also do it with alternative vp cards instead of either duchies or estates. (A similar type of strategy works with the other cursers but to a much lesser extent since they don't slow your opponent down nearly as much) For reference, in Geronimoo's simulator this strategy beats the regular sea hag bot around 60 percent of the time.
Works with: Hoard, alternative vp, +buy (which can help you buy 2 estates at once), other cursers, duchess
Doesn't work with: strong trashers, lighthouse, wharf (since it helps your opponent speed up the game), opponents who don't buy sea hag, engines
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 11:12:21 am by methods of rationality »
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3671
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2012, 09:15:13 pm »
+2

I'm not sure this is a combo so much as, a sea hag strategy. That said, I can see this working on a really really weak board. But there's probably a lot of cards that will make me rebuild my economy and aim for provinces, more than the ones you listed. Even something like B-Crat or explorer can really help.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2012, 10:10:14 pm »
+6

here's another combo: gold, province
Logged

rbruba

  • Swindler
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
  • Respect: +31
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2012, 10:31:02 pm »
+7

here's another combo: gold, province

don't leave us in the dark - how does it work? 
Logged

jider

  • Swindler
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15
  • Respect: +7
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2012, 10:32:07 pm »
0

OP, could you give us a sample game log?
Logged

methods of rationality

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 102
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2012, 10:44:44 pm »
0

While I agree that there are more cards which prevent this STRATEGY from working (City, king's court) its interesting that you choose explorer and bureaucrat. Since they are both cards which increase the total number of cards in your deck by allot, thus decreasing the number of reshuffles and thereby limiting the total times each vp card is drawn. Which mitigates the main drawback of buying vps (that you have to draw them) So, since my strategy centers around buying vps, I would be inclined to think that explorer and bureaucrat help rather than hurt this strategy.
Logged

methods of rationality

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 102
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2012, 10:59:45 pm »
0

Here's one where I deplete the duchess pile instead of the estates:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120709-205301-da0e2b06.html Duchess I guess goes amazingly well with this since its so easy to deplete it once your already depleting the duchies.
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3671
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2012, 11:02:52 pm »
0

I chose explorer and b-crat because they are somewhat weak just to illustrate how weak a board I think this plan needs.

Well think of it this way. Lets say we split the curses 5-5. Ok. Now if you get all the duchies and estates, that's 32 points. Or just over 5 provinces. But you need to take 16 turns just buying green. And then theres a bunch of other turns where you need some sort of income. Buying duchies with a bonus 5 curses is not that easy without good income. So lets say to drain all these piles you need 25 turns. Even with the hagging, 5 or 6 provinces in 25 turns isn't that hard to get.
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3671
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2012, 11:03:17 pm »
+2

Here's one where I deplete the duchess pile instead of the estates:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120709-205301-da0e2b06.html Duchess I guess goes amazingly well with this since its so easy to deplete it once your already depleting the duchies.

Now duchess I can see working quite well since it drains with the duchies and gives you income.

EDIT: Now Sea Hag/Duchess we could call a combo :)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 11:04:41 pm by jonts26 »
Logged

methods of rationality

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 102
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2012, 11:07:38 pm »
0

And here's one with silk roads instead of duchies.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120323-085902-bf9be862.html
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2012, 11:10:40 pm »
+1

EDIT: Now Sea Hag/Duchess we could call a combo :)

Who needs a Harem when there are Sea Hags AND Duchesses?
Logged

methods of rationality

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 102
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2012, 11:13:21 pm »
0

According to councilroom, the average sea hag game takes 24 turns. I'm guessing most of these games end on provinces so that means 24 turns is 4 provinces per player. So 5 or 6 in 25 turns sound a little optimistic.
Logged

methods of rationality

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 102
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2012, 11:21:19 pm »
0

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120614-091940-be2e1e94.html
Finally found one with just the regular curses, duchies estates!
(Where my opponent had an explorer)
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3671
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2012, 11:26:09 pm »
0

According to councilroom, the average sea hag game takes 24 turns. I'm guessing most of these games end on provinces so that means 24 turns is 4 provinces per player. So 5 or 6 in 25 turns sound a little optimistic.

Except that's actually going to be a bit skewed by games with decent trashing and whatnot. The average number of turns with no trashing is likely several turns higher than that. The 25 turns was just an estimate, but I can see that being a bit conservative. After all with no extra buys you'd need 16 turns for green 1-2 turns for hags that only leaves like 7 turns to get income? Probably are never going to drain Duchies with only 7 silvers and 7 coppers among all that junk.

And anyway, I don't really need that many provinces. Each duchy I get is basically a 6 point swing since it denies it to you. I only need 3 provinces and 3 duchies to win.
Logged

methods of rationality

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 102
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2012, 11:39:05 pm »
0

That's assuming the duchy player never buys any provinces. Which, I don't think is the correct move for him.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2012, 12:05:38 am »
0

So then... you're not advocating a Duchy rush?
Logged

zahlman

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 724
  • Respect: +216
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2012, 12:13:04 am »
0

EDIT: Now Sea Hag/Duchess we could call a combo :)

Who needs a Harem when there are Sea Hags AND Duchesses?

... de gustibus non disputandum est...
Logged

methods of rationality

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 102
  • Respect: +13
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2012, 12:21:40 am »
0

It's like in between a rush and a regular strategy. Like when you buy a province in an igg game. Note that I said to prefer duchies to gold, I never said to prefer it to province.
Logged

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2012, 12:36:39 am »
0

It's like in between a rush and a regular strategy. Like when you buy a province in an igg game. Note that I said to prefer duchies to gold, I never said to prefer it to province.

You buy Province in an IGG game when you happen to draw $8. Note that buying IGG helps your economy more than buying Sea Hag.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2012, 08:02:51 am »
0

The basic premise of the original post is correct. You can certainly win a lot of curse ridden games by buying out duchies and estates. However there does need to be a mid game assessment of whether the deck will be recoverable or not. If the deck is recoverable you can look for provinces and use other card combinations in the kingdom of course.
Logged

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +868
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2012, 08:58:05 am »
0

My last session on Funsockets my opponent went one step further and started rushing Estates immediately. We both had 2 Sea Hags early and lots of $2 turns so the Pearl Divers were emptying fast. I decided not to follow the Estate rush and build up to Duchy buying economy and lost.

Just saying it all depends and although I wouldn't call OP's observations a combo, it's good advice in general.
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2012, 08:59:29 am »
0

I kind of like to call it a combo (with a little smile), as it is often right to at least consider to go for Duchies instead of Provinces in Sea Hag (and Young Witch) games. Bureaucrat and Explorer I would actually count as cards who supports this "combo". Silver in a Curse-filled deck is a good card, especially if your target is $5. Silver in a Curse-filled deck does not help you at all if you want to tidy it up, and also does not really help you to get to $8. Unless you have a lot of it. Which takes time...
Of course, this is in no way a no-brainer. Trashing often lets you reorder your deck, so you can go for Provinces. Deplepting 2 piles on your own also takes some time, if you don't have help by the right cards (Duchess) or your opponent.  Nevertheless, not every board has trashing, and looking for the emergence exit "Duchy" in this games might be the right move.

Link (with YW): http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120705-101311-03f2d903.html
plays a bit different, esp. as XR as bane is very attractive, but nevertheless is a cursed game (even with Bureaucrat as support for the exit ->Duchy). Certainly, with Hag instead the Young Witch would play differently, less incentive for XRs means less incentive for Great Halls, means more buys for Silvers, means less glory for the Bureaucrat.
Logged

ehunt

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1528
  • Shuffle iT Username: ehunt
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2012, 10:15:56 am »
0

I thought this "combo" was well-known but I see some good players arguing with it. I agree that it's not exactly a "combo" so much as "sea hag, much like IGG, bureaucrat, duchess, and explorer, makes duchy-rushing a better strategy," which is undeniably true. WanderingWinder beat me on sea hag + buy all the duchies like 92 games in a row one day.
Logged

Varsinor

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 204
  • Respect: +63
    • View Profile
Re: Combo: sea hag, duchy
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2012, 12:39:53 pm »
0

Doesn't work with: [...] opponents who don't buy sea hag

Why? If you buy two Sea Hags as you advocate, you'll normally have depleted the Curse pile by yourself before you can deplete Duchies and Estates.
Actually, if the opponent is stupid enough to let you give him all Curses without giving you any, you have very likely won anyway (at least in a game without heavy trashing which we are talking about).
So if anything, it should be a "works with" (although I wouldn't bother to mention it because you could put all sorts of other stupid moves from your opponent in there if you included that).
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.046 seconds with 20 queries.