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Author Topic: You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play  (Read 1848 times)

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Adrienaline

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I freely admit that I don't know if you have considered this mechanic before (I haven't come across it on these forums), but I though it was a fairly unique way of making slightly different cards that didn't require a potion cost (and therefore don't require a dead potion card or the infamous 2+P problem with Familiar). However, as it is easier to do, the cards can't be quite as powerful as the potion cost ones. I'm thinking ones with a cost of 0 or 2 with this restriction, as they will be accessible on more boards.

Such as

Victory
$2 - Action/Attack
+1 card
+1 action
Each other player gains a curse to their hand or discards a curse, putting a Silver on top of their deck
You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play

I liked the idea of a non-spammable cantrip, was considering it without the restriction with a Gold replacing the Silver, but then thought it would almost never get played.

View
$2 - Victory
Worth 1VP for every 5 treasure cards in your deck.
You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play

What I thought was an interesting mix between having to buy more treasure to power the card, and having to buy actions to get the card in the first place. Is 5 treasures = 1VP enough?

Barterer
$0 - Action
+1 action
+1 buy
+$2
You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play

A spin on the grand market idea, less powerful, but harder to get. Might combo too well with a good $2? Makes duchess and embargo more useful, but the lack of +cards stops it being overpowered? Or should it be costed at $2 (same restriction)?

Thoughts on the idea?
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DWetzel

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Re: You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2012, 11:09:58 am »
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What happens if it hits in a random kingdom and there's no virtual money in play?  You may as well name the card "A Useless Rock", because that is what it would be.
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Adrienaline

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Re: You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2012, 11:29:51 am »
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I get about a third to a half of the cards having a gaining ability, which would enable getting these cards, or virtual money, which would make such a scenario unlikely (though admittedly not impossible). Assuming a quarter of the cards having this ability for the sake of simplicity, and one of these style cards in the kingdom leads to about a 3% chance that the kingdom will turn these cards into "a useless rock"s.

Unless you're suggesting a potion/young witch style card which always has to be in play to remove this possibility altogether? Keep the spirit of the theme?

Smelter
$0 - Action
+1 action
+$1
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qmech

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Re: You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2012, 03:03:55 pm »
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The $0 cards aren't harder to get than Grand Market: they're easier because you can get them for free!  In particular, Barterer is very close to a free Silver that gives you +Buy.

I like the idea.  It seems particularly appropriate for Victory cards: Vineyards games are fun, and these could have a similar feel.
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ftl

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Re: You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2012, 03:13:57 pm »
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If the card costs $2, it's probably okay for it to have a no-treasure restriction. Most kingdoms are going to have a terminal silver or gainer of some kind. Doesn't mean that terminal silver will be worth getting just for the $2-cost restricted card, but still.

...but Barterer seams too cheap. In any game besides a terminal draw-big money, they're almost strictly better than silver, AND cheaper to boot. (You may have forgotten that you don't have to play all the treasure cards in your hand - you can always just open with barterer-barterer instead of silver-silver.)

I like view.  It gets around the problem that a treasure-based VP card would encourage BM, because you can't use treasures to get it. You'd have to playtest it to determine the right number of treasures per VP, 5 seems high but maybe it's just right. You should playtest something simple like a View Rush with woodcutter or Ironworks or even some other cheap terminal silver; that seems plausible as a strategy.
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Ozle

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Re: You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2012, 05:44:07 pm »
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Barterer
$0 - Action
+1 action
+1 buy
+$2
You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play

A spin on the grand market idea, less powerful, but harder to get. Might combo too well with a good $2? Makes duchess and embargo more useful, but the lack of +cards stops it being overpowered? Or should it be costed at $2 (same restriction)?



Thats so much easier to get than a Grand Market, just buy one turns one and two. Or with a trasher, each one you get snowballs the other one. Can easily have 10 of them within a few turns! Then, once you have them you can play treasures again.
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Adrienaline

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Re: You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2012, 06:17:29 am »
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Hmm, I see your points on Barterer. If I raise the cost to $2 it seems to balance it a lot better, otherwise it's too good at the moment.

View needs at least to be every 4 treasure cards, otherwise it is strictly superior to estate at the start of the game, something no other alt-VP that can be improved is. I think 5 is a good benchmark thus far, after a bit of testing. It is still broken with trader in most kingdoms, particularly with +buy, and it works really well with horn of plenty and cache as well.

I do still think there's room in the $0 region for the no-treasure restriction, but maybe something a bit less powerful. Such as the following.

Messenger
$0- Action
At the end of your clean up phase this turn, draw seven cards instead of five.
You may not buy this if you have any treasure cards in play.

With the specific wording so it is vulnerable to handsize attacks, and can't be stacked.

I've been tossing around the idea of doing a set of these, but the catch is then the "a useless rock" problem is more likely to enter play with more cards that have a no treasure restriction, so it might not be a good idea.

I don't know how I managed to make my cantrip-curser that can't be spammed having the name "Victory", it was supposed to be called "Traitor". Maybe that's why there weren't any comments about that?
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eHalcyon

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Re: You may not buy this card if you have any treasure cards in play
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2012, 01:48:30 pm »
+1

Not sure of your definition for "strictly better", but I would say that Gardens and Silk Road are both strictly better than Estate at the start of the game.  You start with 10 cards, so Gardens is already worth 1 VP at game start, with room to grow.  That's strictly better.  You start with 3 Estates so buying Silk Road puts you at 4, making SR worth 1 VP at game start, with room to grow.  Again, strictly better.

Of course, various things (trashing!) could devalue those cards too, so they're not actually strictly better. 

If you just meant that none of the cards start being worth more than 1 VP, then sure, that's right.
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