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[Rush_Clasic]

Scarecrow (3)
Action - Reaction
Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.
-----
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this card and any number of Victory cards from your hand. If you do: +1 card per Victory card revealed.

• Scarecrow guards over the provinces and estates and other land stocks you own.
• This isn't all that great against the discard attacks, but it can be rather powerful against the others.
  
• I originally had an idea that Scarecrow trashed opposing attacks, but I like this theme much more.
• Could this cost (2)? I think it could, but felt (3) was more balanced.
• I'm thinking that the reaction might be too good in bigger multiplayer. Another option I thought of was just to gain an Estate right to your hand.

[eHalcyon]

Your original idea of trashing attacks is not a good Dominion fit, because it can become political.  If you like politics in your games (and I often do!) then it's still fine, but the official Dominion is very much non-political.



On this version -- I believe you need to reword the reaction.  In Dominion, you are allowed to reveal reactions multiple times.  Usually this is pointless because revealing twice is redundant (revealing Moat a second time doesn't change anything).  But you're still allowed to do it. 

With some cards, it WOULD matter.  Horse Traders is a prime example; it solves the problem by using the "set aside" mechanic.

With your card, as soon as someone played an attack, I could reveal it repeatedly and draw my entire deck so long as there was one Victory card in my hand.  You should rewrite it using a "set aside" mechanic, or even force you to discard Scarecrow.

[Dsell]

There's a rules problem with this card. The rules say you can reveal a reaction card any number of times, which is why you can reveal moat multiple times per attack on isotropic. With all existing reactions, revealing additional times doesn't make a difference (unless maybe you make a mistake with secret chamber or something), but this would, according to the rules, let you draw your entire deck if you have a single victory card in your hand by revealing this over and over. This could partially be fixed by having you discard the revealed victory cards, but then the reaction makes the main part of the card even weaker, and it's already pretty weak (similar power as secret chamber).

And then of course there's the issue that all reaction cards have to deal with, and that's to make sure that they're not unusably weak in games without attacks. This could maybe be ok at 2, it'd definitely be nice in silk road games and crossroad engines.

Aaand Ninja'd.

[Rush_Clasic]

I don't want Scarecrow being discarded, as that ruins the synergy of the card. I could change Scarecrow to a Duration, or figure out some other work around. I didn't know about the multiple revelation thing; I thought that was an error on Isotropic, lol. Is there a reason why you're allowed to keep revealing over and over?

I suppose it could be:

Scarecrow #2 (3)
Action - Reaction
Reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.
-----
When another player plays an Attack card, you may set aside this and any number of Victory cards from your hand. At the beginning of your next turn: +1 card per Victory card set aside this way, then return all cards set aside this way to your hand.

That would solve the problem of it being too good in bigger multiplayer. If it sin't too good in big multiplayer, I'd make the return at the beginning of that turn's clean-up.

or...

Scarecrow #3 (3)
Action - Duration
Now and at the beginning of your next turn, reveal your hand. +$1 per Victory card revealed.
-----
While this is in play, when another player plays an Attack card, reveal your hand. +1 card per Victory card revealed.

Which seems really powerful.

[eHalcyon]

Yeah, the main action is decent.  It's the $ version of Crossroads... maybe give it +Buy and it would work at $3, since +$ tends to be valued more than +cards.

A possible rewording, which is probably too long and awkward at the end:

When another player plays an Attack card, you may set this aside from your hand.  If you do, then at the start of your next turn, reveal your hand, +1 card for each Victory card in your hand, and return this to your hand.



PPE: your first revision is not too bad.  The only thing is that the reactions don't stack.  This is not necessarily a bad thing, just something to consider.

Your second revision looks too strong to me.  Also, I think you meant to put "while this is in play, when another player plays an Attack..."

[eHalcyon]

Gonna pull up the master post again.  The last paragraph mostly explains why you can reveal reactions multiple times.

(3) Reactions that are overpowered when revealed multiple times.

A subtle but significant rule about Reaction cards is that they can be revealed an unlimited number of times in response to any single event. Many fan Reaction cards aren't designed with this rule in mind. Consider this Reaction card: "When another player plays an attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, +1 Card."

With such a card, the moment someone plays a single Witch, I can reveal it as many times as I need to to draw my entire deck and discard pile into my hand. The official Reaction cards don't have this problem because they either do not stack (Moat and Secret Chamber, for example, don't do anything the second time that they can't do the first time) or cannot be reused (Horse Traders gets set aside when revealed).

If you have a Reaction effect that could stack if the card is revealed repeatedly, you can solve this problem either by using the Horse Traders mechanic of having the card set aside and returned to your hand later, or you can require that the card is discarded when revealed.

I'm sure these aren't the only viable solutions, but avoid special-case card text like, "You may only reveal this once per attack." The reason is that then it's hard for other players to account for whether you're revealing the same Reaction card multiple times or different copies of it in succession. This is especially true when you also have Secret Chamber, which could potentially rotate different copies of your other Reaction cards in and out of your hand.

[Rush_Clasic]

Thanks for the link and the wording correction. For the Duration, I could limit it to just +1 Card instead of forcing the whole reveal mechanism.

One of these days, I'll post a card that doesn't require an enormous overhaul. (>.<)

[eHalcyon]

Thanks for the link and the wording correction. For the Duration, I could limit it to just +1 Card instead of forcing the whole reveal mechanism.

One of these days, I'll post a card that doesn't require an enormous overhaul. (>.<)

Did you read that stickied post?  It is extremely long, but very useful.  It has been linked to you before!

[Rush_Clasic]

Thanks for the link and the wording correction. For the Duration, I could limit it to just +1 Card instead of forcing the whole reveal mechanism.

One of these days, I'll post a card that doesn't require an enormous overhaul. (>.<)

Did you read that stickied post?  It is extremely long, but very useful.  It has been linked to you before!

I have read it! Or at least I have been reading it. I'm a huge fan of FAQs and posting guidelines, having made many myself. I can't claim that all the information has sunk in yet, and I definitely missed that part on Reactions. I'd check it regularly as I designed cards, but the nature of design is fluid and changing, and referencing that enormous document repeatedly is something easy to forget to do.

[Mecherath]

I like this card, and its reaction, but I think it actually works best as a set-aside mechanic.  I understand why you wouldn't want to discard it, since you may still want to use its main money-generating ability on your turn.

But consider that in a 4 player game with a strong curser like Witch, or one given to chains, like Torturer or Familiar, you can be revealing this a huge number of times.  And every time you draw more cards, that's more victory cards to draw for your next reveal.  And of course you still have it on your next turn then, and with your entire deck in your hand, you're going to be taking a whole pile of cash on your turn.

This doesn't even get into multiple Scarecrows, which is again easier if you are revealing them for each attack for each player.  I don't know that you need more than one payoff for having a $3 card in your hand.

Finally, I think it's actually pretty amazing against discard attacks.  Consider that one of the better responses to Militia is to discard 2 Estates.  In that situation, the attack didn't affect you at all.  If you have a Scarecrow, you are basically choosing 2 cards to replace those estates.  Your hand is probably better now.

Changing it to +1 card has the multiple-attack problem (though not as bad).  Remember that all Horse Traders really gets you is +1 card (well +2 against discard attacks since it's pulling itself away too).  But you don't get it until your next turn because of the set-aside mechanic.  So that version is still a much better reaction.  I actually like that the action and reaction are similar in nature.  But +cards on reactions just can't be spammable.

TL:DR - Keep as written now, but set-aside to make it once per round

[eHalcyon]

Mecherath, I'm not sure which version you are responding to, but keep in mind that reactions are resolved before attacks.  If the reaction lets you draw cards immediately, it does not counter discard attacks, because you draw with the reaction and then discard to the attack afterwards.

It should be noted that the card draw here is based on having victory cards in hand, so it's likely not going to be useful at all during the mid-game, before you start greening.

[qmech]

This card is a lot like Horse Traders, especially the set-aside version.  It's less reliable though, and that's enough to keep it from being too similar.

Is there a reason why you're allowed to keep revealing over and over?

The classic example is Secret Chamber to pull a Moat off the top of your deck, reveal the Moat, Secret Chamber to put the Moat back on your deck for next turn.

[Mecherath]

Mecherath, I'm not sure which version you are responding to, but keep in mind that reactions are resolved before attacks.  If the reaction lets you draw cards immediately, it does not counter discard attacks, because you draw with the reaction and then discard to the attack afterwards.

It should be noted that the card draw here is based on having victory cards in hand, so it's likely not going to be useful at all during the mid-game, before you start greening.

That's just me forgetting how most discard attacks work.  I just played with Torturer in real life recently, which is Discard 2 instead of the more common Discard Down to 3 like Militia has.  So yeah, back to bad against discard attacks.  But I still like the synergy with crossroads and the multi-type Victory cards.

[Grujah]

The only example is Secret Chamber to pull a Moat off the top of your deck, reveal the Moat, Secret Chamber to put the Moat back on your deck for next turn.

FTFY

[jonts26]

The only example is Secret Chamber to pull a Moat off the top of your deck, reveal the Moat, Secret Chamber to put the Moat back on your deck for next turn.

FTFY

Opponent plays Mountebank. You gain a curse. Reveal watchtower, trash the curse. You gain a copper, reveal trader to gain silver instead. Reveal watchtower again to put silver on top of deck.

You want to trash the curse because it's the last one in the supply and you can win next turn by running out a third pile with the help of the extra silver.

EDIT: Or if you want to be more mundane. Gain curse, trader it into a silver, watchtower it on top. Repeat with the copper.

[zahlman]

Possibly a simpler idea for idempotence: keep the Scarecrow in hand, but require the victory cards to be discarded to be worth points.

[Grujah]

The only example is Secret Chamber to pull a Moat off the top of your deck, reveal the Moat, Secret Chamber to put the Moat back on your deck for next turn.

FTFY

Opponent plays Mountebank. You gain a curse. Reveal watchtower, trash the curse. You gain a copper, reveal trader to gain silver instead. Reveal watchtower again to put silver on top of deck.

You want to trash the curse because it's the last one in the supply and you can win next turn by running out a third pile with the help of the extra silver.

EDIT: Or if you want to be more mundane. Gain curse, trader it into a silver, watchtower it on top. Repeat with the copper.

Those do not react to same thing.
Trader reacts to gaining a curse, Watchtower reacts to gaining a Silver.

[eHalcyon]

The only example is Secret Chamber to pull a Moat off the top of your deck, reveal the Moat, Secret Chamber to put the Moat back on your deck for next turn.

FTFY

Opponent plays Mountebank. You gain a curse. Reveal watchtower, trash the curse. You gain a copper, reveal trader to gain silver instead. Reveal watchtower again to put silver on top of deck.

You want to trash the curse because it's the last one in the supply and you can win next turn by running out a third pile with the help of the extra silver.

EDIT: Or if you want to be more mundane. Gain curse, trader it into a silver, watchtower it on top. Repeat with the copper.

Those do not react to same thing.
Trader reacts to gaining a curse, Watchtower reacts to gaining a Silver.

He was just giving other examples where revealing the same reaction multiple times matters, to counter your assertion that the SC-Moat play was the only one.

[AJD]

The only example is Secret Chamber to pull a Moat off the top of your deck, reveal the Moat, Secret Chamber to put the Moat back on your deck for next turn.

FTFY

Opponent plays Mountebank. You gain a curse. Reveal watchtower, trash the curse. You gain a copper, reveal trader to gain silver instead. Reveal watchtower again to put silver on top of deck.

You want to trash the curse because it's the last one in the supply and you can win next turn by running out a third pile with the help of the extra silver.

EDIT: Or if you want to be more mundane. Gain curse, trader it into a silver, watchtower it on top. Repeat with the copper.

Those do not react to same thing.
Trader reacts to gaining a curse, Watchtower reacts to gaining a Silver.

He was just giving other examples where revealing the same reaction multiple times matters, to counter your assertion that the SC-Moat play was the only one.

But of course revealing the same reaction multiple times to different stimuli matters. (Player A plays Militia; player C reveals Moat. Player B plays Militia; player C again reveals Moat.) The SC-Moat play is ostensibly the only case where revealing the same reaction multiple times to the same stimulus matters.

[eHalcyon]

But of course revealing the same reaction multiple times to different stimuli matters. (Player A plays Militia; player C reveals Moat. Player B plays Militia; player C again reveals Moat.) The SC-Moat play is ostensibly the only case where revealing the same reaction multiple times to the same stimulus matters.

Well, the examples given worker in the broader context of responding to the same extent (though of course, they are actually responding to specific results of the attack).

SC-Moat isn't the only one though.  You might also do SC-Trader, SC-Watchtower, etc.

[AJD]

SC-Moat isn't the only one though.  You might also do SC-Trader, SC-Watchtower, etc.

I don't think so. Once you're revealing Watchtower or Trader, it's too late to reveal the Secret Chamber again.

[eHalcyon]

SC-Moat isn't the only one though.  You might also do SC-Trader, SC-Watchtower, etc.

I don't think so. Once you're revealing Watchtower or Trader, it's too late to reveal the Secret Chamber again.

Is it?  Hm, I guess you're right.  My bad!