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Author Topic: The Contest Set Card List  (Read 179377 times)

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werothegreat

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #200 on: October 04, 2012, 04:42:46 pm »
+1

I just got them off of google images - hit "quote" to get the link.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #201 on: October 04, 2012, 04:48:56 pm »
0

I just got them off of google images - hit "quote" to get the link.

The medicine bottles image appears to be a relatively recent painting (judging by the main site) so it's probably not public domain.

I can't tell for the Mountain Pass image because the artist's profile has been closed.  But the main website says it's for living artists, so it might not be public domain either.  :-\
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AJD

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #202 on: October 04, 2012, 05:03:26 pm »
+1

...I guess if Soothsayer is in the Black Market deck, then even if no one ever gains it, they can still discard a treasure at the beginning of their buy phase if they want to? (I could, for example, discard a Potion in hopes that it would get me +$1 on my Philosopher's Stone.)

"In games using this" gives me the willies.

I believe you are correct.  I don't think that particular interaction is problematic to allow at the start of each turn.  It just adds a nice touch of strategy to other cards.  That ability is also good for Menagerie, fixed draw (e.g. Library) and maybe certain edge cases (e.g. two Smithies collide and there is only one card left in deck; discard one so that it doesn't miss the reshuffle when you play the other).

It's the start of the buy phase, not the start of the turn; Philosopher's Stone was the only interaction I could think of (which obviously makes it less problematic; but still).

Quote
Duchess also has "In games using this". :)

True, and it gives me the willies a little bit too. But Duchess's effect is equivalent to "if this is in the Supply", which isn't the case for Soothsayer.

Perhaps a better wording for Soothsayer, which doesn't use "in games using this" (and therefore make us have to figure out what "using this" means), would be something like "When any player has one or more cards set aside on his Soothsayer mat on his turn, at the start of his Buy phase he may discard a Treasure from his hand. If he does not, he puts all the set-aside cards into his discard pile."
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 05:05:03 pm by AJD »
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Polk5440

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #203 on: October 04, 2012, 05:34:55 pm »
+1

For Mountain Pass, how about something by Albert Bierstadt? Mid-late 1800s painter of the American West.

I don't know how to embed images, but here would be my picks:
Domes of the Yosemite
Yosemite Valley, Glacier Point Trail
Gates of the Yosemite

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eHalcyon

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #204 on: October 04, 2012, 05:36:53 pm »
0

It's the start of the buy phase, not the start of the turn; Philosopher's Stone was the only interaction I could think of (which obviously makes it less problematic; but still).

Doh!  This is not the first time I made that mistake.



@Polk, those are pretty nice.  When I get around to making the card, I'll try them all out. :)
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AJD

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #205 on: October 04, 2012, 06:25:07 pm »
0

For the FAQ entry on Soothsayer, regarding "Trash the set aside cards at the end of the game":

"If you have Market Square (from Dominion: Dark Ages) in your hand at the end of the game, and you trash cards from your Soothsayer mat, you may reveal and discard the Market Square and gain a Gold before calculating your score. Whoever takes the last turn of the game must still complete his last Clean-up phase and draw a new hand of five cards before the game ends and the cards on the Soothsayer mat are trashed. If the last turn of the game is a Possession turn (from Dominion: Alchemy), the cards on his Soothsayer mat are still trashed, not placed back in his discard pile."

At least, these seem like reasonable ways for these rules to interact to me.
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One Armed Man

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #206 on: October 09, 2012, 04:26:43 pm »
0

One Armed Man's Set Analysis and Combo update 2: (This is mainly for combos with at least one of the cards posted from contest 12 to 18)

Mountain Pass, Salesman,  Missionary, Flea Market or Silver Smelter + Production Village: Those cards reduce your hand size, Production Village fills it up. Flea Market especially because the Production Village pile might run out, causing acquired Flea Markets to be top-decked.

Mountain Pass, Missionary, Barge, and Pawn Shop are competing trashers. They are also competing with Copper-loving strategies. Barge and Pawn shop let you turn Estates to coppers to help Aqua Vitae.

Barge + Pawn Shop: With a Barge in play, Pawn Shopping to convert into coppers, you get the choice of trashing from your hand for each of the gained Coppers.

Flea Market + Canal: Supply Pile synergy? I am not sure.

Astrolabe + Tea House: You can set aside each Tea House as you buy them, putting a card back on top of your deck for incredibly unimpeded greening. With a rush, you can put an Astrolabe on your deck every time you use Tea House, making a greenless deck that is still worth lots of VP.

Carpenter has good friends now: Salesman, Soothsayer, Silver Smelter (get 2 on the same turn, they are weak without a high density of them in your deck), Barge, and Flea Market.

Carpenter + Mountain Pass, Salesman, and/or Missionary: With cost reducers, Carpenter acts as a virtual +Buy so that you can gain 5 or 6 cost cards, even provinces if you have a self-synergy engine going.

Silver Smelter + Flea Market: Flea Market requires a discard and Silver Smether makes a good target for it.   

Barge + Production Village: You might not know that Barge works as a virtual Watchtower. If you are junked by an Ambassador, Curser, or Jester, you can trash out of your hand on opponent's turns.

Salesman + (Harbinger) or Amulet: When you are in the middle of a Salesman chain, you need a card that you can gain to bridge the gap between Salesman and Gold. For this set, you don't have a 5 cost village, so if you need a 5 cost card, there you go.


Counter: Astrolabe vs. Soothsayer: Even if you have gotten rid of most of your Coppers, on any turn you aren't greening you can discard Astrolabe to protect yourself from Curses.

Counter: Missionary vs. Soothsayer: You can discard a Missionary to gain nothing instead of a Curse.

Counter: Landfall vs. Tea House rush: If your opponent is rushing Tea Houses, then your Landfalls are non-terminal. Use the +Buy carefully, or you can expedite the piles ending your opponent wants.

Counter: Farmers' Market vs Garrison: Top deck some Victory cards and Curses to by-pass. This counter is the same as Farming Village vs Ghost Ship.

We need another source of +Actions. The self-synergizing cards need villages in order to work properly!
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #207 on: October 09, 2012, 04:37:08 pm »
0

There is also Landfall vs. Astrolabe.  Astrolabe encourages heavy greening, and Landfall takes advantage of a greening opponent.  The name "Landfall" comes in part from "Astrolabe" (navigating to land, as it were).
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #208 on: October 09, 2012, 05:34:16 pm »
+1

Here are my suggested wording changes for the contest-winning cards. I tried not to alter their effects in any way.

Quote
Tea House
$4 - Victory

2 VP
--
At the start of Clean-up on the turn you buy this, you may choose a card you have in play. If you discard it from play this turn, put it on your deck.
Quote
Tea House
$4 - Victory

2 VP
--
When you buy this, you may choose a card you have in play. If you discard that card from play this turn, put it on top of your deck.

The difference between choosing a card immediately upon buying it and at the beginning of cleanup is negligible. You can't play any more Actions or Treasures at that point anyway.

Quote
Canal
$6* - Victory

When the game ends, if the Province or Colony supply pile is empty (if it was available), then this is worth 4 VP. Otherwise, this is worth 2 VP.
--
During your Buy phase, if two supply piles are empty, then this costs $3.
Quote
Canal
$6* - Victory

If the Province or Colony supply pile is empty, then this is worth 4 VP. Otherwise, this is worth 2 VP.
--
During your Buy phase, if two supply piles are empty, then this costs $3 less (but not less than $0).

You don't need to specify 'when the game ends'. All VP calculations are done at the end of the game. Also, there are potential rules conflicts when setting a card's cost dynamically. This card says it now costs $3, but this other card says it costs $1 less? How much does it cost? $5? $3? $2?

Quote
Pawn Shop
$3 - Action

Choose one: trash a card from your hand, gaining a number of Coppers equal to its cost in coins, putting them into your hand; or trash any number of Coppers from your hand, gaining a card with cost exactly equal to the number of Coppers you trashed.
Quote
Pawn Shop
$3 - Action

Choose one: trash a card from your hand, gaining a number of Coppers equal to its cost in coins and putting them into your hand; or trash any number of Coppers from your hand, gaining a card costing exactly $1 per Copper you trashed.

Slightly cleaned-up wording regarding the cost of gained cards.

Quote
Crystal Ball
$5 - Treasure-Reaction

Worth $2
When you play this, reveal the top card of your deck and either discard it or put it back.
--
When you discard this other than from play, you may reveal it and set it aside. At the start of your next Buy phase, play this card.
Quote
Crystal Ball
$5 - Treasure-Reaction

Worth $2
When you play this, reveal the top card of your deck. Discard it or put it back.
--
When you discard this other than from play, you may set it aside. At the start of your next Buy phase, play this card.

You don't need to reveal a card before setting it aside. Set aside cards are implicitly revealed.

Quote
Academy
$4 - Action

+2 Cards
+1 Action
Each other player draws a card, then discards a card from hand.
Quote
Academy
$4 - Action

+2 Cards
+1 Action
Each other player draws a card. Each other player discards a card.

You don't need to specify that a card is discarded "from hand" any more than you need to specify that you gain a card "to your discard pile". It's the default.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #209 on: October 09, 2012, 05:39:15 pm »
0

On Crystal Ball -- I put the reveal in there to be consistent with Tunnel.  Perhaps the "Set aside" mechanic should be enough that the reveal isn't necessary.  Hmm.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #210 on: October 09, 2012, 05:48:56 pm »
0

On Crystal Ball -- I put the reveal in there to be consistent with Tunnel.  Perhaps the "Set aside" mechanic should be enough that the reveal isn't necessary.  Hmm.

With Tunnel, you're revealing it because it's ending up in your discard and might not otherwise be revealed (because it could be hidden under other discarded cards). If you set aside a card as you're discarding it, it's implicitly revealed.

By the way, I absolutely love Harbinger. I think it could create a lot of AP, which is something I normally try to avoid in fan cards, but the card is so cool that I don't care.
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Polk5440

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #211 on: October 09, 2012, 06:04:28 pm »
0

Here are my suggested wording changes for the contest-winning cards. I tried not to alter their effects in any way.

Quote
Canal
$6* - Victory

When the game ends, if the Province or Colony supply pile is empty (if it was available), then this is worth 4 VP. Otherwise, this is worth 2 VP.
--
During your Buy phase, if two supply piles are empty, then this costs $3.
Quote
Canal
$6* - Victory

If the Province or Colony supply pile is empty, then this is worth 4 VP. Otherwise, this is worth 2 VP.
--
During your Buy phase, if two supply piles are empty, then this costs $3 less (but not less than $0).

You don't need to specify 'when the game ends'. All VP calculations are done at the end of the game. Also, there are potential rules conflicts when setting a card's cost dynamically. This card says it now costs $3, but this other card says it costs $1 less? How much does it cost? $5? $3? $2?

I agree the "when the game ends" is probably unnecessary.

The "(if it was available)" clause is there to emphasize that you do not need to play with Colony in order to play with this card. Maybe this would be better suited to a rules clarification, but it is not as obvious that it can be eliminated. My specific reason for including it is that without it, in non-Colony games, it raises the question: "If Colonies aren't available, is the Colony supply pile empty?" Or, someone may think, "Oh, Canal's in play, we need to put Colony in play, too."

As for the cost reduction, your suggestion would put the card more in line with Peddler's wording, and may be fine. I did in fact word it the way I did in order for Canal to be immune from cost reducers if two supply piles are empty (so it would cost $3; the effect occurs during the Buy phase after any Actions that reduce cost have been played). This is to partially protect Province players' investment in Canal when there are two piles empty (making it harder to three-pile with the third pile being Canal). But I don't know that it really matters. I haven't play tested a game with Canal where cost reducing was a major factor, so I don't have any special insight into this special case.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 06:13:55 pm by Polk5440 »
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #212 on: October 09, 2012, 06:13:25 pm »
0

The "(if it was available)" clause is there to emphasize that you do not need to play with Colony in order to play with this card. Maybe this would be better suited to a rules clarification, but it is not as obvious that it can be eliminated. My specific reason for including it is that without it, in non-Colony games, it raises the question: "If Colonies aren't available, is the Colony supply pile empty?" Or, someone may think, "Oh, Canal's in play, we need to put Colony in play, too."

Yeah, I can understand your stance here. If it were me, I'd probably take Colonies out of the equation entirely and have it only care about Provinces, but my goal here was not to mess with the actual effects of the card.

One interesting and clean way to "fix" this would be:

Quote
Canal
$6* - Victory

If three Supply piles are empty, then this is worth 2 VP. Otherwise, this is worth 4 VP.
--
During your Buy phase, if two supply piles are empty, then this costs $3 less (but not less than $0).

It works differently when you empty Provinces/Colonies as the third pile, but in most games it's the same effect without needing to name Province or Colony specifically. It's win-win!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 06:15:08 pm by LastFootnote »
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popsofctown

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #213 on: October 09, 2012, 06:18:21 pm »
0

So, I'm kinda jumping into this conversation without reading much.

But I've kinda wondered why Canal isn't just worth 5 - the number of empty piles?  Like if there is a design reason it shouldn't be I'm open to hearing it, but my gut feels like that's the best implementation for what it does.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #214 on: October 09, 2012, 06:20:27 pm »
0

So, I'm kinda jumping into this conversation without reading much.

But I've kinda wondered why Canal isn't just worth 5 - the number of empty piles?  Like if there is a design reason it shouldn't be I'm open to hearing it, but my gut feels like that's the best implementation for what it does.

Yeah, I'd like that too. You could also reduce the cost of the card by the number of empty piles.
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Polk5440

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #215 on: October 09, 2012, 06:32:57 pm »
+2

If it were me, I'd probably take Colonies out of the equation entirely and have it only care about Provinces, but my goal here was not to mess with the actual effects of the card.

The reason I include Colonies is that one interpretation of Canal is that in some cases it's alt VP for "normal play." Most Colony games play like Province games, and Canal should not play differently when Colonies are available. (Side note: This idea came from a musing that Explorer would actually work better if you could reveal a Province or a Colony to gain a Gold).

Quote
One interesting and clean way to "fix" this would be:

Quote
Canal
$6* - Victory

If three Supply piles are empty, then this is worth 2 VP. Otherwise, this is worth 4 VP.
--
During your Buy phase, if two supply piles are empty, then this costs $3 less (but not less than $0).

It works differently when you empty Provinces/Colonies as the third pile, but in most games it's the same effect without needing to name Province or Colony specifically. It's win-win!

This is a seemingly innocent change, but I think it's detrimental to the card. I did in fact consider this, too, and the reason I did not go with it is that with the alternate wording, when two piles are empty, and the game continues, you KNOW the card is going to be worth 2VP. This removes the interesting tension in the card (Province/Colony player can get 4 VP cheap!). This tension actually does occur more often then you expect, especially when at least one player is playing for it!

So, I'm kinda jumping into this conversation without reading much.

But I've kinda wondered why Canal isn't just worth 5 - the number of empty piles?  Like if there is a design reason it shouldn't be I'm open to hearing it, but my gut feels like that's the best implementation for what it does.

Yeah, I'd like that too. You could also reduce the cost of the card by the number of empty piles.

The design reason is that those suggestions remove interesting strategic tension from the play of the card. Getting (or playing for) "VP cheap" is why Canal is more interesting as it's currently worded.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #216 on: October 09, 2012, 07:09:09 pm »
0

Most Colony games play like Province games, and Canal should not play differently when Colonies are available.

Why not? Plenty of other cards play differently when Colonies are available. Personally, I think it's odd for a card from one expansion to refer to a card from another expansion by name.
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Polk5440

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #217 on: October 09, 2012, 07:26:41 pm »
0

Why not? Plenty of other cards play differently when Colonies are available.

Because that was the intent behind the card. If you have a reason why it would be more interesting to only mention Provinces, I am open to hearing it, but I think it would make the set of games where Canal is interesting or relevant too small.

Quote
Personally, I think it's odd for a card from one expansion to refer to a card from another expansion by name.

But it's not required to play the card, unlike the Potion cost cards, so it remains expansion independent. 
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popsofctown

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #218 on: October 09, 2012, 07:44:30 pm »
0

The design reason is that those suggestions remove interesting strategic tension from the play of the card. Getting (or playing for) "VP cheap" is why Canal is more interesting as it's currently worded.
I don't follow. The VP would still be cheap.
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AJD

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #219 on: October 10, 2012, 12:59:27 am »
0

Most Colony games play like Province games, and Canal should not play differently when Colonies are available.

Why not? Plenty of other cards play differently when Colonies are available. Personally, I think it's odd for a card from one expansion to refer to a card from another expansion by name.

It could refer to "Victory card pile costing $8 or more".

(Exercise for the reader: if there were a Duration cost-alterer that was still in play when the game ended, would it screw with the scoring of this version of Canal? Why or why not?)
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #220 on: October 10, 2012, 02:52:56 am »
+1

Most Colony games play like Province games, and Canal should not play differently when Colonies are available.

Why not? Plenty of other cards play differently when Colonies are available. Personally, I think it's odd for a card from one expansion to refer to a card from another expansion by name.

It could refer to "Victory card pile costing $8 or more".

(Exercise for the reader: if there were a Duration cost-alterer that was still in play when the game ended, would it screw with the scoring of this version of Canal? Why or why not?)

It shouldn't, because durations should not remain in play when the game ends.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #221 on: October 10, 2012, 10:11:42 am »
+1

I think it would be simpler for Canal to only refer to the Province pile, even in a Colony game.  In a Colony game, those extra 2 points aren't as powerful anyhow.  And it could potentially give more incentive to end a Colony game on Provinces, which is nice every once in a while.  And what if Donald is about to release another game ending card along the lines of Province and Colony in the upcoming Guilds or as a promotional card?
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #222 on: October 10, 2012, 10:43:27 am »
0

Either way, the phrase "when the game ends" seems rather ambiguous to me.  Is there some precedent for it?  Some may argue that the game hasn't ended until the VP have been tallied and a winner has been declared.  After all, if the game has ended, what does it mean to say this Province is mine?  Obviously anyone arguing this would be laughed away, but still, there should a more well-defined moment when the value switches.
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Qvist

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #223 on: October 10, 2012, 12:01:05 pm »
0

Mountain Pass:


Salesman:

One Armed Man

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #224 on: October 10, 2012, 12:44:15 pm »
0

The second Salesman looks more like he would sell something. The other just looks like a guy.
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