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Author Topic: The Contest Set Card List  (Read 179368 times)

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Kirian

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #125 on: August 31, 2012, 02:54:21 am »
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OK.  The hell has been photoshopped out of what I posted.  I don't like embedding huge images, so here's just the link.

http://invirtuo.cc/img/Amulet.png
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #126 on: August 31, 2012, 02:58:00 am »
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OK.  The hell has been photoshopped out of what I posted.  I don't like embedding huge images, so here's just the link.

http://invirtuo.cc/img/Amulet.png

Gonna have to extend it horizontally or else it will not sit in the frame properly. :P
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One Armed Man

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #127 on: August 31, 2012, 11:45:15 am »
+2

One Armed Man's Set Analysis and Combo update:

Garrison+Crystal Ball: Top deck a bad card or Crystal Ball and discard it with the Crystal Ball.

Aqua Vitae and Almoner: With improved Coppers, gaining a Copper to hand becomes a useful ability (like an activated Conspirator)

Aqua Vitae and Pawn shop (gaining coppers option): Get rid of a Gold for +$12(or more) worth of super coppers! A Duchy or $5 card becomes $10 (or more)!

Retort + Aqua Vitae: Great incentive to get multiple potions. A little tricky when you don't know whether you want a potion to by $1+P or +1 action.

Harbinger and Crystal Ball: The opponent is incentivised to make the Crystal Ball pile very strong because the player can use the Crystal Ball whether or not they choose that pile.

Gatherer and Crystal Ball: Name Crystal Ball + something. You will discard Crystal Balls along the way, draw 2 cards, and get the Crystal Ball benefit anyway.

Production Village + Panacea (trashing option) or Carpenter: These are the only ways in the set to reduce your hand size so Production Village is more than a normal village. The best uses of PV here are as counters, below:

Counters:
Production Village counters Garrison and Amulet: Garrison attacks can decrease handsize and Production Village draws it back up. With Amulet, the opponents can trash their bad cards but don't suffer reduced hand sizes if they have Production Village. This doesn't block Soothwayer because the discarding happens before the Buy phase, not before the Action phase.

Soothsayer counters Aqua Vitae: You don't want to discard your Coppers if they become super-coppers.

Soothsayer counters Pawn Shop (trashing coppers option): If you have to discard your Coppers, you can't trash them into something good. You kind of want those Coppers anyway to block the Soothsayer.

Panacea counters Soothsayer (kinda): Panacea is much better at trashing Curses than the other (self-)trasher of the set, Pawn Shop.

Crystal Ball counters Conference Room: The opponent can draw a card and discard Crystal ball and use it anyway.

Crystal Ball counters Soothsayer: The player can discard Crystal ball and use it the next turn anyway to protect from Curses.

No combos: Carpenter ($4 card gain). getting a Tea House isn't much benefit because you didn't buy the Tea House. Getting Conference room is weak. The only thing I can think of is gaining a potion (for boosting with Aqua Vitae or Retort).

Nombo: Museum+Potion cards. If you are getting these potion cards, you are less likely to get Gold and Silver.

Nombo: Amulet + Soothsayer (or any curser): This would give the opponent the chance to trash the Curses you are giving them.

Analysis: Crystal Ball is good with quite a bit of the set. It might need to be weakened.

Panacea (Market option only) is the only +Buy in the set! How can we exploit cheap Canals?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 11:49:58 am by One Armed Man »
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #128 on: August 31, 2012, 11:55:00 am »
0

If CB needs to be weakened, I would suggest either removing the on play Spy or increasing the cost to $6.  I'd rather do the latter because the Spy-effect is so thematic for a Crystal Ball! :P

And yeah, I'll definitely be looking at cheaper cards (to boost up Carpenter) and cards with +Buy (not only for Canal, but also for Aqua Vitae+Almoner/Pawn Shop) in the upcoming contests.
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One Armed Man

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #129 on: August 31, 2012, 12:06:25 pm »
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Crystal Ball idea:
$6 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $2
When you play this, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck and either discard it or put it back, discard one and put the other back.
--
When you discard this from your hand or from your deck, you may reveal it and set it aside.  In your next Buy phase, play this card.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #130 on: August 31, 2012, 12:14:17 pm »
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I think that if it proves too strong for $5 as is, there's no need to buff it when increasing the cost.

Alternative nerf: always discard the top card, no choice in the matter.  This is still less thematic than the Spy, but still fits (looking into the future inevitably changes it!) so that might be OK.



An interesting combo -- Production Village with Soothsayer on the board.  PV counters SS (discard Treasure, draw back up).  But PV is actually stronger just by the presence of SS, even if the opponent doesn't go for it.  SS has a persistent effect.  So at the start of your turn, even if there is nothing on your SS mat, you could choose to slough a Treasure so that PV can draw one more.  Might not always be the best idea, but you have that option!  SS also has this effect on the other draw-to-X cards, as well as helping Menagerie a little bit.
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One Armed Man

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #131 on: August 31, 2012, 12:37:24 pm »
0

I think that if it proves too strong for $5 as is, there's no need to buff it when increasing the cost.

Alternative nerf: always discard the top card, no choice in the matter.  This is still less thematic than the Spy, but still fits (looking into the future inevitably changes it!) so that might be OK.



An interesting combo -- Production Village with Soothsayer on the board.  PV counters SS (discard Treasure, draw back up).  But PV is actually stronger just by the presence of SS, even if the opponent doesn't go for it.  SS has a persistent effect.  So at the start of your turn, even if there is nothing on your SS mat, you could choose to slough a Treasure so that PV can draw one more.  Might not always be the best idea, but you have that option!  SS also has this effect on the other draw-to-X cards, as well as helping Menagerie a little bit.

The discard one and put the other back is a buff, but not always. If both cards on the top of your deck are good, then seeing one and discarding none is better.

Production Village doesn't counter Soothsayer. As I said, "This doesn't block Soothwayer because the discarding happens before the Buy phase, not before the Action phase." It also means Soothsayer isn't countered with menagerie, library, minion, etc.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #132 on: August 31, 2012, 12:39:53 pm »
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Mostly a buff though. It self synergies even more if it can see two cards.

My bad on Soothsayer. Though now I wish that interaction existed!  ;D
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One Armed Man

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #133 on: August 31, 2012, 12:55:35 pm »
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Garrison+Crystal Ball: Top deck a bad card or Crystal Ball and discard it with the Crystal Ball.

Harbinger and Crystal Ball: The opponent is incentivised to make the Crystal Ball pile very strong because the player can use the Crystal Ball whether or not they choose that pile.

Gatherer and Crystal Ball: Name Crystal Ball + something. You will discard Crystal Balls along the way, draw 2 cards, and get the Crystal Ball benefit anyway.

Crystal Ball counters Conference Room: The opponent can draw a card and discard Crystal ball and use it anyway.

Crystal Ball counters Soothsayer: The player can discard Crystal ball and use it the next turn anyway to protect from Curses.

With the "Always discard the top card" version of Crystal Ball, these options all remain comboes. Crystal Ball still would be a great counter to the Garrison attack, which I forgot to mention originally. Other possible interactions with always discarding the top card (I don't count discard attacks because I am focusing on the top of deck interactions.):
Your current hand is great and you want to reshuffle sooner.
You know the top of your deck and the other Treasure you have is a Venture.
Wishing Well and Mystic (if you guessed wrong and it was a bad card)
Anti Sea Hag
Anti Ghost Ship
Anti Oracle
Anti Fortune Teller (HA!)
Anti Rabble
Anti Bureaucrat
Vagrant
Scout, Apothecary, Mandarin, and Courtyard
Tunnel
Armory-Alt-VP (makes it work just like a workshop if you want that)
Bad with with deck improvement like Bureaucrat, Beggar, Fools Gold and Bag of Gold.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #134 on: August 31, 2012, 02:58:20 pm »
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I think it's OK to keep the combos.  I am putting out ideas for ways to nerf it to varying levels.  We don't even know if it needs a nerf yet. :P

And removing the option is indeed a nerf.  Sometimes you flip a good card.  Sometimes you want to topdeck something good, but it is futile.

But again, the card hasn't even been tested.  It could be just fine as is.  Lots of interaction doesn't automatically mean OP.
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zahlman

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #135 on: August 31, 2012, 06:16:14 pm »
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Alternative nerf: always discard the top card, no choice in the matter.

Discarding a random card is pretty much pointless, except that you could conceivably topdeck a Tunnel first or something.

Another option: either discard it, or put it on the bottom of your deck.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #136 on: September 01, 2012, 06:31:37 am »
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How about for Crystal Ball, it's not you making the choice. Instead, it's the player to the left deciding. It gives it a (necessary?) nerf for when it turns up a non Crystal Ball card, and for the crystal ball he has to choose whether you get the treasure bonus now or next turn. It's also a unique effect not yet seen on an official dominion card.

Also on another, contradictory note, I do love Harbinger, but it does strike me as potentially annoying in multiplayer games if only one player decides to go with the strategy. While one player is playing Harbinger after Harbinger, and another player is spending his time deciding on which of the 16 ways to split up the cards would most benefit him (which may even involve kingmaking and metagaming decisions), everyone else has to sit back and watch. Envoy may have this problem, but it's terminal and only requires picking one card, not splitting up 5. I know there's no precedent, but maybe for both this, and my suggestion for crystal ball, you can nominate a player to do the choosing. That could lead to some political problems though.

Edit: I don't think crystal ball is overpowered though. If tunnel was a fan card I'm sure we'd all be just as worried.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 06:46:59 am by NoMoreFun »
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One Armed Man

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #137 on: September 01, 2012, 01:31:39 pm »
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How about for Crystal Ball, it's not you making the choice. Instead, it's the player to the left deciding. It gives it a (necessary?) nerf for when it turns up a non Crystal Ball card, and for the crystal ball he has to choose whether you get the treasure bonus now or next turn. It's also a unique effect not yet seen on an official dominion card.

That nerf takes it back too far the other way. Giving an opponent the option is so much better than not giving an option at all, it would have to be a $5 gold!
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Polk5440

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #138 on: September 01, 2012, 07:45:58 pm »
0

Crystal Ball idea:
$6 - Treasure-Reaction
Worth $2
When you play this, reveal the top 2 cards of your deck and either discard it or put it back, discard one and put the other back.
--
When you discard this from your hand or from your deck, you may reveal it and set it aside.  In your next Buy phase, play this card.

I vote a big NO to this. If anything, kill the spy ability, don't buff it. The best part of the card is the reaction; it's why I voted for the card, and it shouldn't be overshadowed by the spying ability.
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Polk5440

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #139 on: September 01, 2012, 07:55:41 pm »
0

Them cards are looking nice!

I wonder if there's general rule of thumb of how the card costs are distributed. The base set has lots of $3 and $4 cards. Prosperity has  more expensive cards, but it's mostly because they got Platinum as well.

So far the majority of our cards are $4 and $5...I wonder if we'll be doing a few lower costing cards to balance out?

Here's the table I made for this. I haven't gotten around to adding DA yet, but will soon. I'll also add and update this fan expansion so we can compare

I'll be favouring cheap cards and virtual coin in the upcoming contests.  We have a lot of draw already.

Too bad you didn't handicap those items last week -- my non-terminal draw had a plus buy, and my dual card was cheap and gave money sometimes :(.
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Kirian

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #140 on: September 04, 2012, 09:59:57 pm »
+1

Hey guys... what in the world does a panacea look like?

Thought of this tonight:

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Polk5440

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #141 on: September 08, 2012, 10:59:28 am »
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Another thought on Crystal Ball: If it turns out to be way too strong (e.g.  from Golem combos), then another tweak could be to the power of the reaction:

Quote
When you discard this other than from play, you may reveal it and set it aside. At the start of your next Buy phase, +$2 and discard this card.

This way, you don't get the spy ability when the card is played after triggering the reaction. If that remains too strong, +$2 can be reduced to +$1.

I am not convinced the card is too strong as written, but I haven't played with it yet, and am just throwing an idea out there.
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Thanar

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #142 on: September 11, 2012, 09:35:05 pm »
+4

Would the creator of the Conference Room card consider a name change to a medieval equivalent?

If so, I'd suggest Chapter Room or Chapter House - "a building or room attached to a cathedral or collegiate church in which meetings are held. They can also be found in medieval monasteries." (Wikipedia) See also Chapter.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 09:49:54 pm by Thanar »
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RobertJ

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #143 on: September 12, 2012, 12:24:22 pm »
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Would the creator of the Conference Room card consider a name change to a medieval equivalent?

If so, I'd suggest Chapter Room or Chapter House - "a building or room attached to a cathedral or collegiate church in which meetings are held. They can also be found in medieval monasteries." (Wikipedia) See also Chapter.


I certainly don't feel hugely attached to the name so if we can come up with a better alternative then I am happy for it to be changed. The point of Conference Room was to be a more scientific sounding version of Council Room. Ideally I would like a name like this which references both Council Room and Laboratory. I'm not so keen on Chapter House since it doesn't do this and the other cards with ecclesiastical names involve trashing rather than drawing. It would be good to hear if anyone else has some ideas. 
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One Armed Man

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #144 on: September 12, 2012, 12:28:58 pm »
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I think the name Barber would be funny and cool, considering that Medieval barbers were doctors and dentists, too.
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Fuu

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #145 on: September 12, 2012, 01:06:58 pm »
0

Would the creator of the Conference Room card consider a name change to a medieval equivalent?

If so, I'd suggest Chapter Room or Chapter House - "a building or room attached to a cathedral or collegiate church in which meetings are held. They can also be found in medieval monasteries." (Wikipedia) See also Chapter.


I certainly don't feel hugely attached to the name so if we can come up with a better alternative then I am happy for it to be changed. The point of Conference Room was to be a more scientific sounding version of Council Room. Ideally I would like a name like this which references both Council Room and Laboratory. I'm not so keen on Chapter House since it doesn't do this and the other cards with ecclesiastical names involve trashing rather than drawing. It would be good to hear if anyone else has some ideas.

Lycaeum/Lyceum? A public meeting place for exchange of ideas, perhaps more classical than medieval ... similarly, Theatre/Town Hall/Town Square?

Monastery? A variant on Chapter House I suppose but it could indicate (slightly) a philosophical side ... similarly, Academy/Institute/Salon? School/Observatory?
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Thanar

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #146 on: September 12, 2012, 04:35:37 pm »
+1

The point of Conference Room was to be a more scientific sounding version of Council Room. Ideally I would like a name like this which references both Council Room and Laboratory.

In that case, I'd suggest Colloquium - "a usually academic meeting at which specialists deliver addresses on a topic or on related topics and then answer questions relating to them" www​.merriam-webster​.com​/dictionary​/colloquium

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AJD

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #147 on: September 12, 2012, 11:05:45 pm »
+1

The point of Conference Room was to be a more scientific sounding version of Council Room. Ideally I would like a name like this which references both Council Room and Laboratory.

In that case, I'd suggest Colloquium - "a usually academic meeting at which specialists deliver addresses on a topic or on related topics and then answer questions relating to them" www​.merriam-webster​.com​/dictionary​/colloquium

How about Academy?
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Archetype

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #148 on: September 12, 2012, 11:26:04 pm »
0

The point of Conference Room was to be a more scientific sounding version of Council Room. Ideally I would like a name like this which references both Council Room and Laboratory.

In that case, I'd suggest Colloquium - "a usually academic meeting at which specialists deliver addresses on a topic or on related topics and then answer questions relating to them" www​.merriam-webster​.com​/dictionary​/colloquium

How about Academy?

Or University?

Oh wait...
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Fuu

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Re: The Contest Set Card List
« Reply #149 on: September 13, 2012, 12:01:51 am »
+1

Forum?
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