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Author Topic: Chancellor/Talisman  (Read 2867 times)

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chwhite

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Chancellor/Talisman
« on: July 18, 2012, 04:51:46 pm »
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So, Chancellor is supposed to be the worst $3 card, according to the rankings here.  And Talisman is supposedly the fourth-worst $4 card, with precious few defenders.

Together they make a nifty Level Negative 1 Opening.  Who in their right mind would ever do such an obviously horrible thing, opening two obviously horrible cards?

I would!

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/17/game-20120717-203017-2d375a1a.html

With no $5s better than Cartographer, no other strong terminals (no, Possession and Noble Brigand do not count), and a supremely important spammable $4- Tournament- it was the right move.  The Talisman lets me double up on Tournaments three times, and does it better than Ironworks, check out Turn 3 for proof why.  (With not much card draw, and Conspirators waiting to be activated, spamming Tournaments is in fact the right move here).  The Chancellor does its cycling thing, probably a little better than average but not exceedingly so.  (Getting it on Turn 4 wasn't great, but Turn 5 was.)  By Turn 11, I have both power Prizes and three Provinces.  And that's as second player.

I think this game is a pretty good example of how to use both Chancellor and Talisman well, as well as a demonstration of how to win Tournaments without just auto-pilot opening them and relying on luck.  One of my favorite games in awhile.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 04:41:17 pm by chwhite »
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dondon151

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Re: Chancellor/Talisman
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2012, 04:55:25 pm »
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I would honestly prefer Ironworks to Talisman as a matter of consistency because of the chance at getting a $3 Talisman hand.
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O

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Re: Chancellor/Talisman
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2012, 04:57:53 pm »
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I'm sorry.. but not even close to normal shuffle luck. T6 province....
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chwhite

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Re: Chancellor/Talisman
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2012, 04:58:57 pm »
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I would honestly prefer Ironworks to Talisman as a matter of consistency because of the chance at getting a $3 Talisman hand.

Had I hit a $3 Talisman hand, Silver/Silver would not have been the end of the world.  A $4 Talisman hand is really the prime case where Talisman > Ironworks here, and that is what I got on Turn 3.  I haven't run the numbers exactly, but I suspect that the $4 Talisman hand was more likely than $3, and that's why I went in that direction.  (All the later Talisman hands were with $5 or more, so either I overspent for a pair of Tournaments, or just bought Province.)
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dondon151

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Re: Chancellor/Talisman
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2012, 05:01:31 pm »
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Had I hit a $3 Talisman hand, Silver/Silver would not have been the end of the world.

But it would have been bad if your goal was to stack Tournaments and match them with Provinces. You both lose out on Tournaments and increase the size of your deck with cards that don't disappear, making it harder to match Tournament with Province.

I don't think that most people who open Talisman are pleased with taking 2x Silver as a consolation prize (unless the 2x Silver was the goal of the Talisman purchase in the first place).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 05:03:41 pm by dondon151 »
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chwhite

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Re: Chancellor/Talisman
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2012, 05:11:12 pm »
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Had I hit a $3 Talisman hand, Silver/Silver would not have been the end of the world.

But it would have been bad if your goal was to stack Tournaments and match them with Provinces. You both lose out on Tournaments and increase the size of your deck with cards that don't disappear, making it harder to match Tournament with Province.

Well, a hand of Ironworks/Copper/Copper/Copper/Estate presumably gets you a Tournament and a Silver, which is better than Silver/Silver here but worse than Tournament/Tournament.  So, it's a safer move but has less upside (Ironworks/$4 is also good, but even more unlikely).

As P2 I'm more inclined to go for the higher-risk, higher-reward strategy here.  I think the expected value might be higher, too, but I guess I'm not entirely sure about that.  This might actually be a case where Chancellor/Ironworks would be better for P1, and Chancellor/Talisman for P2.  Pretty confident you want a Chancellor here no matter what.
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chwhite

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Re: Chancellor/Talisman
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2012, 05:18:58 pm »
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I'm sorry.. but not even close to normal shuffle luck. T6 province....

My shuffles were pretty damn favorable, yes.  But I don't think it ought to be a surprise at all that Chancellor provided enough of a tempo boost to buy and connect Province first despite the P2 disadvantage.  Even if it "should" have happened a turn or two later than it did, it also "should" have happened fairly quickly.  That's the whole point of Chancellor!
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DStu

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Re: Chancellor/Talisman
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2012, 04:21:03 am »
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So given turn1-5, chances for Province in T6 are about 8%. Given you buy no Province, but two Tournaments in T6 and play a Chancelor, they are about 10%16% in T7.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 05:15:30 am by DStu »
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Geronimoo

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Re: Chancellor/Talisman
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2012, 04:54:59 am »
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It looks cute, but one game is far from proof that this is viable. The simulator sure hates the Talisman in this strategy. Talisman/Chancellor into Tournaments will get beaten by the more straightforward Tournament/Chancellor (around 60%-40%).
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chwhite

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Re: Chancellor/Talisman
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2012, 09:48:17 am »
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It looks cute, but one game is far from proof that this is viable. The simulator sure hates the Talisman in this strategy. Talisman/Chancellor into Tournaments will get beaten by the more straightforward Tournament/Chancellor (around 60%-40%).

Fine, fine, fine.  I saw an opportunity for Talisman to be less obviously horrible than usual, took it, and got lucky.

The point still stands that Chancellor is pretty dominant here.
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DG

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Re: Chancellor/Talisman
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2012, 12:29:23 pm »
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The simulator does like tournament/chancellor. The way I see it, the tournament assists the chancellor in the turnover of the deck and you get full benefit from quick gold and province purchases. The talisman doesn't help the chancellor at all and although the chancellor might help the talisman you're left with decisions about whether to discard a draw deck that contains the talisman, whether to have two 4 cost cards than a 5 or 6, and whether two silvers for 3 coins creates the type of deck you want.
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