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rinkworks

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You may...
« on: July 22, 2011, 01:30:00 pm »
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Sometimes the "You may..." clauses are for things you pretty much always want to do.  It's nice to have the flexibility, and the wording is ever so much more polite than an outright imperative.  But for some of them I wonder if there is ever not a reason to do what you "may."

Has anybody here ever had (or can think of) a reason not to...?

(1) Return Treasury to the top of your deck when you have not bought a victory card?
(2) Return Walled Village to the top of your deck when you do not have more than two actions in play?
(3) Return Alchemist to the top of your deck when you have a Potion in play?
(4) Reveal a Province after playing Explorer?
(5) Discard a Curse to circumvent a Mountebank attack?  (I guess there's one reason not to do this:  you're ahead, and taking one more Curse or Copper will end the game.  Any other reason not to do this?)
(6) Reveal a Province after playing Tournament?  (There's a thread in the Puzzles forum about why you might not want to reveal a Province to someone else's Tournament.)
(7) Choose a location for Stash on the reshuffle?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 01:35:03 pm by rinkworks »
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AJD

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Re: You may...
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2011, 01:41:33 pm »
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I've done (3) in a couple of games to defend against my opponent's masquerade. Generally I'd put three alchemists back on top and discard the others, so if I got hit with masquerade I'd usually have a copper or something to pass over but still have enough good draw left to set up my next combo turn.
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AJD

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Re: You may...
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2011, 01:43:25 pm »
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Also of course there are Possession-based situations to motivate any of 13.
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rls22

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Re: You may...
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2011, 01:46:11 pm »
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If your opponent has a Saboteur or Swindler-heavy deck you may not want to return more then 5 Treasuries or Alchemists to the top of your deck.
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rod-

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Re: You may...
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2011, 01:47:27 pm »
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1+2) I've often not returned walled village, thinking (incorrectly, after deliberation) that it slows/stalls deck cycling.  I can't come up with a *valid* reason, however.

3) If you have 5+ alchemists, and your opponent has an attack (militia/goons) that happens every turn, it makes more sense to keep 3 alchemists and 2 random cards as your top 5, so you can draw into your alchemists earlier.

4) If you have 2 explorers in hand, 1 gold already in hand, surplus actions and menagerie, but no silver, or simply for horn of plenty action

5) If you have trash-for-benefit cards such as trade route & no other cards you wish to trash, or discard-for-benefit such as young witch.

6) Often happens - say you have 7$ after playing tournament.  Knowing the top card of your deck is not worth 0, and prizes have already been dispensed, you can either buy 2 duchies or 1 province - depending on game state, 1 province is often better.

7) Deck consisting only of stashes
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guided

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Re: You may...
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2011, 01:56:47 pm »
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The main reason is that you don't want the rules to allow for cheating through secret information. For example, Donald X has expressed regret over the lack of a "you may" clause in the wording of Throne Room, since you might not want to play an action card that it forces you to play, and you could easily cheat by hiding it under your other discards.

Anyway, to actually address your questions: An obvious answer to 1/2/3/7 is that you're either Possessing an opponent or you fear you will be Possessed. Other exceptions to 1/2/3 exist but will be comparatively rare.

Exceptions to 4 will be exceptionally rare of course, though you could imagine you don't want to gain a duplicate Gold for Menagerie (or other Cornucopia cards) or something like that. Maybe you need precisely a Silver for the Forge you're about to play or something. These are admittedly far-fetched scenarios.

5: I've chosen not to reveal a Curse for Mountebank on several occasions. Most recently, I did it very late in a game because the Curse pile was empty and I wanted to feed the Curse I had in hand to Bishop or Trade Route or something like that. In general, you would not discard it either because you plan to trash it or you don't want to reduce your hand size for some reason (e.g. Vault).

6: You don't want any of the remaining prizes Prize or a Duchy on top of your deck. Plausible (especially if the Prize pile is empty) but probably rather rare.

7: Choosing the location for Stash is extremely common. Simplest example: You've already drawn 4 cards before reshuffling, and you don't want the Stash to be your 5th card in hand. Or maybe there are Pirate Ship attacks coming. Or maybe you have more than 4 Stashes and you see no need to put a full 5-card hand worth of Stashes on top. These are only the tip of the iceberg; examples are legion and easy to find if you give it some thought.


edit: Oh, duh, I misunderstood your Stash example. Perhaps you don't want to reveal how many stashes you have, so you just shuffle your deck without pulling out the Stashes? Also far-fetched.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:02:02 pm by guided »
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Elyv

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Re: You may...
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2011, 02:08:16 pm »
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I think it's because if you forget IRL, you don't have issues with needing to rewind the game if you realize you forgot to put one of your treasuries on top or whatever like 2 turns earlier. They've done similar things in Magic largely for that reason.
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rinkworks

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Re: You may...
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2011, 04:01:39 pm »
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Great responses, all.  I hadn't even thought about general logistical reasons for having "you may" clauses, like anti-cheating and anti-rewind.  But as I said, I have no complaint, only curiosity about anyone ever wanting to choose the non-obvious option.

I have another one.  If you play a Baron with an Estate card in hand, would you ever not discard the Estate?  It occurred to me that even if you WANTED the Estate, earning +$4 and +1 Buy by discarding it is more than enough to get you one, plus something better for your other buy(s).

I guess rod and guided's Mountebank situations both apply here as well.  And I suppose if the Estate pile is embargoed, you'd rather gain one through the Baron than buy one through the embargo.

The fact that this game has so many non-obvious strategic considerations on the fringes like this is just one more reason why this is such a great game.  Even after you've played with every card hundreds of times, you're still going to hit weird situations where you can, and want, to try new and sometimes strange things.
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Elyv

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Re: You may...
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2011, 04:14:14 pm »
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I have another one.  If you play a Baron with an Estate card in hand, would you ever not discard the Estate?  It occurred to me that even if you WANTED the Estate, earning +$4 and +1 Buy by discarding it is more than enough to get you one, plus something better for your other buy(s).
I've actually had this one come up once. I had $4, there were 3 estates left, and I wanted to 3-pile. So I played it, got the estate, and then bought the last two.
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play2draw

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Re: You may...
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2011, 05:02:07 pm »
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I have another one.  If you play a Baron with an Estate card in hand, would you ever not discard the Estate?  It occurred to me that even if you WANTED the Estate, earning +$4 and +1 Buy by discarding it is more than enough to get you one, plus something better for your other buy(s).

After playing a flurry of villages your hand is Watchtower, Baron, Baron, Baron, Estate. You play the baron to gain the estate, putting it on your deck, and play the watchtower to draw it. Now you can discard two estates.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: You may...
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2011, 05:05:53 pm »
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Surely you would play the second Baron before the Watchtower...
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Kirian

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Re: You may...
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2011, 06:58:44 pm »
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Surely you would play the second Baron before the Watchtower...

Yes, perhaps.  But don't call me Shirley.
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krawhitham

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Re: You may...
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2011, 12:27:28 am »
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In addition to all of the excellent ideas above:

1) you might want to play an action card simply to reduce the cost of peddler
2) Ambassador - you might want to clog your opponents with a copper but keep your's in hand for this turn to afford the card you want
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PetterTB

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Re: You may...
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2011, 09:14:15 am »
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1-3 Minion from the opponent. You know you won't keep the hand anyways, discarding the cards takes you quicker to the reshuffle, quicker to use them.
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rod-

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Re: You may...
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2011, 11:31:39 am »
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5) You want the curse pile to run out, but your opponent has a lot of curses, so you probably won't be able to feed them all to him.  (Just had this come up in a game, where i knew i DIDNT want to discard a curse to mountebank, although it never actually came up)
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drg

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Re: You may...
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2011, 12:03:19 pm »
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Sometimes the "You may..." clauses are for things you pretty much always want to do.  It's nice to have the flexibility, and the wording is ever so much more polite than an outright imperative.  But for some of them I wonder if there is ever not a reason to do what you "may."

Has anybody here ever had (or can think of) a reason not to...?

(1) Return Treasury to the top of your deck when you have not bought a victory card?
(2) Return Walled Village to the top of your deck when you do not have more than two actions in play?
(3) Return Alchemist to the top of your deck when you have a Potion in play?
(4) Not reveal a Province after playing Explorer?
(5) Not discard a Curse to circumvent a Mountebank attack?  (I guess there's one reason for this:  you're ahead, and taking one more Curse or Copper will end the game.  Any other reason not to do this?)
(6) Reveal a Province after playing Tournament?  (There's a thread in the Puzzles forum about why you might not want to reveal a Province to someone else's Tournament.)
(7) Choose a location for Stash on the reshuffle?

1,2,3 - your opponent is going to play masquerade and you don't want to return too many cards to the top of your deck as you would then have to pass him one.

4 - You have a horn of plenty as well and need the silver, or using fairgrounds and want the silver.

5 - No curses left in play and you can trash the curse you have in hand, or you want to run out the curses.

6 - If it's your own tournament, you may not want a duchy on top of your deck at that time, along with the puzzle answers on others tournaments.

7 - I can see it being irrelevant if you have only 1, but after that, the only reason I can see is it saves time not to.
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Blooki

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Re: You may...
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2011, 02:07:28 pm »
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I just played a game where I did not return Treasuries to the top of my deck because I needed their +Actions for my Golems. It was far from an optimally played game and Big Money without Golems was probably the best strategy, but it presented a good instance for a realistic reason for #1-3 of this thread.

The only other +Action card in the kingdom was Lookout and you can understand why I wouldn't want to spam that.
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Superdad

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Re: You may...
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2011, 02:26:48 pm »
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I've taken a hit from a montebank because I wanted to give my opponent my curse with ambassador/masquerade when I don't have other junk in hand. I gain a curse and a copper, I lose a curse, he gains a curse. I end up even on curses, but gain a copper. He gains a curse. Good trade if you ask me.



One that I find particularly frustrating is Trade Route (/edit, not trade post). Oh man, sometimes I really don't want to be forced to trash a card.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 02:29:10 pm by Superdad »
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: You may...
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2011, 01:13:21 pm »
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Possession is a topic in and of itself, so not including all of the scenarios in which you think you're likely to be possessed next turn, or you're possessing someone and you don't want to play it so that their next turn sucks.

There are "theoretical" reasons to do any of the below that many of the others have already mentioned.  In my many (over 3000) now, games of dominion, i'll try to recall scenarios in which I've actually done these, to put some sense on practical. 

(1) Return Treasury to the top of your deck when you have not bought a victory card?
(2) Return Walled Village to the top of your deck when you do not have more than two actions in play?
(3) Return Alchemist to the top of your deck when you have a Potion in play?
The most common reason for these would be when masquerade is in play, and you don't want a hand full of good stuff to be stolen.  Walled village is new, and I don't think I've ever not done it.  There have been times when I've agreed with those who said  they wanted their +actions to be in the deck so that the golem can find them - but I think that those instances are probably not optimal play.

(4) Not reveal a Province after playing Explorer?
Never done it in real life.  My best thought would be a hand consisting of Gold, Gold, Horn of Plenty, Province, Explorer - and really wanting a 4 cost card instead of a 3.  Playing explorer is already an edge case.  For those who mentioned menagerie... just play the menagerie first!  (Unless you have 2 explorers, but now we're just being silly)


(5) Not discard a Curse to circumvent a Mountebank attack?  (I guess there's one reason for this:  you're ahead, and taking one more Curse or Copper will end the game.  Any other reason not to do this?)
Another reason would be if having the card in your hand has value.  For example, you have a cellar or a warehouse, and you want to use the curse in your hand.  If I've ever done it, it was to end the game though.

(6) Reveal a Province after playing Tournament?  (There's a thread in the Puzzles forum about why you might not want to reveal a Province to someone else's Tournament.)
Never done it in real life.  The answer of "all prizes gone" and I need the next card to buy the last province and end the game instead of a duchy sounds valid enough.


(7) Choose a location for Stash on the reshuffle?

This is reasonably common.  I actually did this yesterday in a retarded game with a crazy King's Court / Torturer / Bazaar / Horn of Plenty action.  I wanted the stash to drive up the ability of the horn of plenty, but I didn't want it in my hand, so I put it at the bottom of my deck.  Any time you're reshuffling mid hand based on what you've already drawn and how many cards you have in your hand, you might not want your stash.  (Example, you've already drawn Gold, Gold, Silver and there are no sources of +buy)

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Blooki

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Re: You may...
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2011, 01:30:28 pm »
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(7) Choose a location for Stash on the reshuffle?

This is reasonably common.  I actually did this yesterday in a retarded game with a crazy King's Court / Torturer / Bazaar / Horn of Plenty action.  I wanted the stash to drive up the ability of the horn of plenty, but I didn't want it in my hand, so I put it at the bottom of my deck.  Any time you're reshuffling mid hand based on what you've already drawn and how many cards you have in your hand, you might not want your stash.  (Example, you've already drawn Gold, Gold, Silver and there are no sources of +buy)

Seems a lot of people are misreading this. I believe the OP meant that you give up your option to place the Stash altogether and shuffle it as if it were a normal card.
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Agrisios

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Re: You may...
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2011, 12:50:50 pm »
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(5) Discard a Curse to circumvent a Mountebank attack?  (I guess there's one reason not to do this:  you're ahead, and taking one more Curse or Copper will end the game.  Any other reason not to do this?)

Besides the already mentioned:
- you want the coppers for counting house
- you want cards for gardens/phil stone

curses are probably - but not necessarily - already depleted at these points.
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Zaphod

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Re: You may...
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2011, 12:09:23 pm »
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(5) Discard a Curse to circumvent a Mountebank attack?  (I guess there's one reason not to do this:  you're ahead, and taking one more Curse or Copper will end the game.  Any other reason not to do this?)

Besides the already mentioned:
- you want the coppers for counting house
- you want cards for gardens/phil stone

curses are probably - but not necessarily - already depleted at these points.

That's what I was going to say.  Beaten to the punch again!

Also, one might choose not to discard a Curse if he is holding a Watchtower and wants to trash the Curse and Copper, rather than leave them in the supply.
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theory

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Re: You may...
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2011, 03:04:53 pm »
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Is there any reason not to take all the Coppers into your hand with Counting House?

I suppose only when you have multiple Philosopher's Stones in your hand, along with a perfect knowledge of how many cards are in your deck and discard.
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guided

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Re: You may...
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2011, 03:17:38 pm »
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Is there any reason not to take all the Coppers into your hand with Counting House?
-Maybe you want Venture to hit a Copper in the event of a reshuffle.
-Maybe you don't want duplicate Coppers for Cornucopia purposes.
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chwhite

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Re: You may...
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2011, 03:24:48 pm »
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Is there any reason not to take all the Coppers into your hand with Counting House?
-Maybe you want Venture to hit a Copper in the event of a reshuffle.
-Maybe you don't want duplicate Coppers for Cornucopia purposes.

Your hand is: Library or Watchtower, Counting House, Village, Village, Estate.  You have lots of Coppers in the discard, but even better cards in the draw.
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