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Author Topic: Clasic_Cards #2 - Vampire  (Read 10450 times)

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Rush_Clasic

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Clasic_Cards #2 - Vampire
« on: July 17, 2012, 01:43:04 pm »
0

Vampire - (4)
Action - Attack
Each other player discards a card. +1 VP for each Victory card discarded this way.



  • The vampire drains players, gaining vitality along the way.
  • I like the subgame this creates. Do players give you VP, or do they sacrifice useful cards?
  • I could imagine this costing only (3), but it seems oppressive at that point, especially if two are purchased immediately. I don't necessarily think it'd be overpowered, but weakening it a bit makes it more fun overall. There's a good possibility that means this card should provide coins or cards, but I felt the methodical VP gaining was enough, if a bit lackluster in two-player games.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 12:31:20 pm by Rush_Clasic »
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Qvist

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2012, 01:48:57 pm »
+2

I like the base mechanic.

But KC-KC-Vampire-Vampire-Vampire shuts down all opponents and gets you infinite VPs. I think that needs a fix.
You either need a Torturer-like clause to opt not to discard or a Militia-like clause for players with more than X cards in hand.

And I like to point out, that it scales differently in multiplayer. I don't know if this intended, but in 4 player games, this can be pretty strong.

As you mentioned, I'm also not sure if +X$ or +X cards is needed, that has to be tested.

dondon151

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2012, 01:51:11 pm »
+2

You can pin opponents with multiple plays of this every turn, and in a 3-4 player game, the player in last seat is never going to win. This also scales poorly in multiplayer (there's the possibility of gaining multiple VP per play of this card).

This looks very similar to Torturer to me, except that Torturer's 1 VP penalty is not permanent (as opposed to a 1 VP benefit in the form of a VP token, which is permanent), and Torturer's options help a player weather the attack when chained and this doesn't. There's also the fact that Torturer's attack does nothing after the Curses run out.

In short, your card is rather weak in BM (it's either a half Militia or a Monument, neither of which gives $), incredibly strong in engines (it can pin opponents), and scales poorly with more players.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2012, 02:19:50 pm »
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But KC-KC-Vampire-Vampire-Vampire shuts down all opponents and gets you infinite VPs. I think that needs a fix.
You either need a Torturer-like clause to opt not to discard or a Militia-like clause for players with more than X cards in hand.

I see the KC-KC-(...) set-up mentioned a ton. Is this a common issue in the custom card realm? This doesn't seem stronger than KC-KC-Bridge*3. Or KC-KC-Goons*3. KC is a strong card that enables strong plays, but should God-hands temper the design of lesser cards that much?

And I like to point out, that it scales differently in multiplayer. I don't know if this intended, but in 4 player games, this can be pretty strong.

I tried to make it balanced for a 4-player game, which is why I decided against extra benefits.

You can pin opponents with multiple plays of this every turn, and in a 3-4 player game, the player in last seat is never going to win. This also scales poorly in multiplayer (there's the possibility of gaining multiple VP per play of this card).

I haven't thought about this "last seat" issue much in regards to design, but it gets talked about a lot, and I've definitely experienced why. Using "discard down to four" just makes this card play really poorly, though. Hmmm... that's an interesting problem to tackle.

This looks very similar to Torturer to me, except that Torturer's 1 VP penalty is not permanent (as opposed to a 1 VP benefit in the form of a VP token, which is permanent), and Torturer's options help a player weather the attack when chained and this doesn't. There's also the fact that Torturer's attack does nothing after the Curses run out.

There was a version of this design that gained discarded VP instead of gaining tokens. That version felt really awkward playwise (though more flavorful thematically). It's an interesting feature, since early on it drains Estates out of players decks, which they're all too happy to give away, then starts hurting a bit more later down the road.

In short, your card is rather weak in BM (it's either a half Militia or a Monument, neither of which gives $), incredibly strong in engines (it can pin opponents), and scales poorly with more players.

Noted. I'll have to think about this a bit. Any suggestions would be illuminating.



EDIT: Perhaps a Bureaucrat route might work. Something like:

Vampire - (4)
Action
Each other player discards a card or reveals a hand with no Victory cards. +1 VP for each Victory card discarded this way.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 02:24:21 pm by Rush_Clasic »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2012, 02:21:04 pm »
+2

Man, when I saw your thread titled Classic_Cards #1: Blood Diamond, I assumed you were starting a series of discussions on "Classic" bad card ideas. A.K.A. bad card ideas that many different Dominion beginners come up with before they really understand the dynamics of the game. Then I read the post and realized you were seriously proposing that same card again and merely titling it "Classic" because of the idea's simplicity.

Now I read this thread, with a card containing two more "Classic" blunders: an Attack that when played repeatedly can cause your opponents to discard their whole hand and a card that generates infinite VP chips without causing the game to approach an end condition. Now I'm starting to think this series really is a sort of clever stealth Public Service Announcement-type thing after all.

If you really are seriously proposing these cards, please, please take the time to read Rinkworks' Dominion Fan Card Creation Guide.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2012, 02:30:08 pm »
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Man, when I saw your thread titled Classic_Cards #1: Blood Diamond, I assumed you were starting a series of discussions on "Classic" bad card ideas. A.K.A. bad card ideas that many different Dominion beginners come up with before they really understand the dynamics of the game. Then I read the post and realized you were seriously proposing that same card again and merely titling it "Classic" because of the idea's simplicity.

Now I read this thread, with a card containing two more "Classic" blunders: an Attack that when played repeatedly can cause your opponents to discard their whole hand and a card that generates infinite VP chips without causing the game to approach an end condition. Now I'm starting to think this series really is a sort of clever stealth Public Service Announcement-type thing after all.

If you really are seriously proposing these cards, please, please take the time to read Rinkworks' Dominion Fan Card Creation Guide.

"Clasic" in the thread title is just referring to my user name, as in "my cards". Hence the single "s" spelling. As for the general design, I whole-heartedly admit that I'm a newbie at Dominion design and will graciously accept whatever scathing reviews you'd like to offer. It took me years to get good at designing Magic, and I doubt I'll know all the nuances of designing this game right away.

Thanks for the link; I read some of it earlier, but apparently I should read it all.

LastFootnote

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2012, 02:33:11 pm »
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"Clasic" in the thread title is just referring to my user name, as in "my cards". Hence the single "s" spelling. As for the general design, I whole-heartedly admit that I'm a newbie at Dominion design and will graciously accept whatever scathing reviews you'd like to offer. It took me years to get good at designing Magic, and I doubt I'll know all the nuances of designing this game right away.

Ah, gotcha. I noticed it was spelled Clasic, but didn't get the connection.

I like your new Bureaucrat version of this card much better, though it still has the VP accumulation issue a little bit.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2012, 02:46:59 pm »
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"Clasic" in the thread title is just referring to my user name, as in "my cards". Hence the single "s" spelling. As for the general design, I whole-heartedly admit that I'm a newbie at Dominion design and will graciously accept whatever scathing reviews you'd like to offer. It took me years to get good at designing Magic, and I doubt I'll know all the nuances of designing this game right away.

Ah, gotcha. I noticed it was spelled Clasic, but didn't get the connection.

I like your new Bureaucrat version of this card much better, though it still has the VP accumulation issue a little bit.

I'm not sure I get the problem, per se. Is it that you see gaining VP quickly with this card as drastically easier than with, say, Bishop? Or is it that this card doesn't further your own gameplan in any way other than gaining VP?

Also, I'm at the portion of the article you linked on "Myths About Card Prices", and it's clear how poor an influence Magic design can translate to be at times. :P

Insomniac

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2012, 02:56:27 pm »
+1

As mentioned pinning opponents is no fun, KC+KC+Bridgex3 ends the game, KC+KC+Vamp*3 makes the game unplayable for the other players. I think you can accomplish what you want with a modified margrave effect.


Vampire - (4)
Action - Attack
Each opponent with less than 3 cards in their hand draws a card.
Each opponent discards a card. +1 VP for each Victory card discarded this way.


EDIT: Also its not just about KC+KC+Vamp*3 you can set up an engine where you draw your deck and have 5 vamps in your deck in any game with a village and card draw, and this will ALWAYS beat any amount of victory cards a player gets because this generates vp. (They discard their hand any vp net you points do this until you have enough points to win, then do it some more, then end the game)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 02:59:09 pm by Insomniac »
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AJD

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2012, 03:04:38 pm »
+1

I'm not sure I get the problem, per se. Is it that you see gaining VP quickly with this card as drastically easier than with, say, Bishop? Or is it that this card doesn't further your own gameplan in any way other than gaining VP?

It's not that it doesn't further your gameplan; it's that it doesn't further the game. In other words, with Bishop, you score points but also have to trash cards; if you don't want to run out of cards to trash with Bishop you have to continue to buy cards; and buying cards brings the game closer to ending on piles. Vampire scores you points without giving you any incentive to bring the game closer to ending.
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rinkworks

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2012, 03:06:35 pm »
+4

But KC-KC-Vampire-Vampire-Vampire shuts down all opponents and gets you infinite VPs. I think that needs a fix.
You either need a Torturer-like clause to opt not to discard or a Militia-like clause for players with more than X cards in hand.

I see the KC-KC-(...) set-up mentioned a ton. Is this a common issue in the custom card realm? This doesn't seem stronger than KC-KC-Bridge*3. Or KC-KC-Goons*3. KC is a strong card that enables strong plays, but should God-hands temper the design of lesser cards that much?

The issue here is the potential to shut down your opponents' turns.  If you can get to the point of KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge, you're in a position where you will almost certainly win and win big, but what it doesn't do is obliterate any chance that your opponents will be able to respond.  They'll still have a proper turn afterward (if you don't end the game that very turn).  With the official Dominion cards, the only way you can lock out your opponents is by using King's Courts, Masquerade, and a discarder attack (Militia or Goons, for example) in conjunction.  Note, however, that this combo was not noticed during playtesting of the game, and Donald X. has stated that he probably would have killed the combo if it had been noticed before publication.  (Though more recently he said maybe not, so who knows.)

Thing is, though, you don't have to work as hard as that to lock your opponents out with this card.  Double Throne Room, double Vampire will leave your opponents with a single card apiece.  Worse still, imagine a 4-6 player game wherein every plays a single copy on their turn.  Whoever goes last has no cards, or next to no cards, to play with.  Contrast with any other attack in Dominion, be it Militia, Goons, Witch, Mountebank, or whatever.  That last player will still get a decent shot at a turn, every time.

In some cases, the design of the official attack cards prevent lock-out in a very subtle way.  Notice how Sea Hag doesn't just say "put a Curse on top of your deck."  If it did, five plays would mean five Curses constituting the entirety of your next turn.  Instead, the "discard the top card of your deck" bit ensures is a safeguard against lock-out.

Similarly, Rabble works on the top 3 cards instead of the top 5, and Torturer lets you take Curses instead of sacrificing your whole next turn to multiple Torturers played in a row.

Without safeguards against lock-outs like this, it would be too easy to build an engine that would shut your opponent(s) out for whole turns or even, indeed, the entire rest of the game, which doesn't wind up being a whole lot of fun for the victims and possibly not the attackers, either.  True, it's not gamebreaking in the sense that there is something inherently wrong with the mechanics of a game that allowed lock-out, but it runs contrary to the principles upon which the official Dominion cards are founded.  As such, fan cards that break those principles probably aren't going to go over well with the players who are attracted to Dominion in the first place because like like those very qualities.

Quote
And I like to point out, that it scales differently in multiplayer. I don't know if this intended, but in 4 player games, this can be pretty strong.

I tried to make it balanced for a 4-player game, which is why I decided against extra benefits.

Here, the issue is more that the potential point swing in a 2-player game is 1 VP per play, while in 4-player it's 3 VP per play.  So triple the power.  No fixed extra benefit (like a flat +$2 to the player) will either fix or further break this scaling issue.

Admittedly, some of the official Dominion attack cards do scale differently.  Thief can get you 3 Golds in a 4-player game, but only 1 in a 2-player game.  The likelihood that Thief will miss mitigates this difference somewhat, but the potential is still there.   However, Thief is weak enough anyway that it's not massively overpowered at 4-player, just better.

Even with that category of cards, though, there are subtle scaling fixes.  Pirate Ship is a great example.  You don't get a coin on your mat for EVERY Treasure card you trash -- you only get a coin IF you trashed any Treasure cards.  This is one way to rein in the scaling on your card:  gain a VP if ANYBODY discards a Victory card.  This has a drawback too:  it'll mean players will have to be careful to respond to the attack in order (because in the last seat I'm going to wait to see if someone else discards a Victory card before discarding mine), thereby slowing down the game, so there are still issues to either try to fix or decide to live with.  But it's one way in which the scalability issue might be addressed.

By the way, the posts in "The Bible of Donald X." subforum are also really interesting reads.  They're all Donald X. telling stories about how Dominion was designed.  There is mention somewhere, though I can't remember exactly, that he experimented with a "everybody discards a card" attack, ultimately realizing that the lock-out possibilities that introduced didn't lead to the kind of game he wanted to make.  It's entertaining and illuminating stuff.

Anyway, a quick footnote:  I do appreciate your interest in making simple cards.  I agree that fan cards tend to be more complex than they need to be, and I'm a huge fan of very simple cards that nevertheless allow for interesting strategy.
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jider

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2012, 03:37:52 pm »
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You could fix the pin potential by adding an option to not discard, at the cost of extra VP for you:
"Each other player may discard a card. +1 VP for each Victory card discarded this way.  For each player that does not discard a card, +2VP."
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2012, 05:13:19 pm »
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As mentioned pinning opponents is no fun, KC+KC+Bridgex3 ends the game, KC+KC+Vamp*3 makes the game unplayable for the other players. I think you can accomplish what you want with a modified margrave effect.


Vampire - (4)
Action - Attack
Each opponent with less than 3 cards in their hand draws a card.
Each opponent discards a card. +1 VP for each Victory card discarded this way.

I like the "draw and discard" idea as a balancing feature. I don't like how it matches the concept, but that isn't damning of the idea itself.

It's not that it doesn't further your gameplan; it's that it doesn't further the game. In other words, with Bishop, you score points but also have to trash cards; if you don't want to run out of cards to trash with Bishop you have to continue to buy cards; and buying cards brings the game closer to ending on piles. Vampire scores you points without giving you any incentive to bring the game closer to ending.

Ah, right. It doesn't eliminate piles. That's as much a problem with Thief as it is with my card (though arguably Thief leads you toward buying things). I'm enjoying how one short-sighted design can reap so many lessons.

The issue here is the potential to shut down your opponents' turns.  If you can get to the point of KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge, you're in a position where you will almost certainly win and win big, but what it doesn't do is obliterate any chance that your opponents will be able to respond.  They'll still have a proper turn afterward (if you don't end the game that very turn).  With the official Dominion cards, the only way you can lock out your opponents is by using King's Courts, Masquerade, and a discarder attack (Militia or Goons, for example) in conjunction.  Note, however, that this combo was not noticed during playtesting of the game, and Donald X. has stated that he probably would have killed the combo if it had been noticed before publication.  (Though more recently he said maybe not, so who knows.)

Sensible enough. One of the first things I noticed about the game was how clever the design of Militia was for multiplayer. Don't know why I forgot that so quickly.

In some cases, the design of the official attack cards prevent lock-out in a very subtle way.  Notice how Sea Hag doesn't just say "put a Curse on top of your deck."  If it did, five plays would mean five Curses constituting the entirety of your next turn.  Instead, the "discard the top card of your deck" bit ensures is a safeguard against lock-out.

Similarly, Rabble works on the top 3 cards instead of the top 5, and Torturer lets you take Curses instead of sacrificing your whole next turn to multiple Torturers played in a row.

Without safeguards against lock-outs like this, it would be too easy to build an engine that would shut your opponent(s) out for whole turns or even, indeed, the entire rest of the game, which doesn't wind up being a whole lot of fun for the victims and possibly not the attackers, either.  True, it's not gamebreaking in the sense that there is something inherently wrong with the mechanics of a game that allowed lock-out, but it runs contrary to the principles upon which the official Dominion cards are founded.  As such, fan cards that break those principles probably aren't going to go over well with the players who are attracted to Dominion in the first place because like like those very qualities.

I have to keep in mind how the turn structure works. It's easy to gloss over.

Here, the issue is more that the potential point swing in a 2-player game is 1 VP per play, while in 4-player it's 3 VP per play.  So triple the power.  No fixed extra benefit (like a flat +$2 to the player) will either fix or further break this scaling issue.

Admittedly, some of the official Dominion attack cards do scale differently.  Thief can get you 3 Golds in a 4-player game, but only 1 in a 2-player game.  The likelihood that Thief will miss mitigates this difference somewhat, but the potential is still there.   However, Thief is weak enough anyway that it's not massively overpowered at 4-player, just better.

Even with that category of cards, though, there are subtle scaling fixes.  Pirate Ship is a great example.  You don't get a coin on your mat for EVERY Treasure card you trash -- you only get a coin IF you trashed any Treasure cards.  This is one way to rein in the scaling on your card:  gain a VP if ANYBODY discards a Victory card.  This has a drawback too:  it'll mean players will have to be careful to respond to the attack in order (because in the last seat I'm going to wait to see if someone else discards a Victory card before discarding mine), thereby slowing down the game, so there are still issues to either try to fix or decide to live with.  But it's one way in which the scalability issue might be addressed.

That's a good review. The trick as always will be finding the right fit.

By the way, the posts in "The Bible of Donald X." subforum are also really interesting reads.  They're all Donald X. telling stories about how Dominion was designed.  There is mention somewhere, though I can't remember exactly, that he experimented with a "everybody discards a card" attack, ultimately realizing that the lock-out possibilities that introduced didn't lead to the kind of game he wanted to make.  It's entertaining and illuminating stuff.

Anyway, a quick footnote:  I do appreciate your interest in making simple cards.  I agree that fan cards tend to be more complex than they need to be, and I'm a huge fan of very simple cards that nevertheless allow for interesting strategy.

Thanks for all the input. It's been helpful.

-----------------------------

I suppose that one of the problems with my "Vampire" idea is that it's just a Thief variant at heart; that is, it's trying to steal VP from players. I don't think that's inherently unhealthy, but it's definitely something that should be handled carefully. I've been looking over the idea for an elegant idea that solves all the problems, but I don't see one that's satisfactory.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:14:40 pm by Rush_Clasic »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2012, 05:35:04 pm »
+1

The difference is that Thief does not grant VP tokens while this does.  With Thief, you still need to buy other stuff, which eventually leads to draining Provinces/Colonies or 3 other piles.
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popsofctown

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2012, 05:49:37 pm »
0

I'm not sure I get the problem, per se. Is it that you see gaining VP quickly with this card as drastically easier than with, say, Bishop? Or is it that this card doesn't further your own gameplan in any way other than gaining VP?

It's not that it doesn't further your gameplan; it's that it doesn't further the game. In other words, with Bishop, you score points but also have to trash cards; if you don't want to run out of cards to trash with Bishop you have to continue to buy cards; and buying cards brings the game closer to ending on piles. Vampire scores you points without giving you any incentive to bring the game closer to ending.
I'm kinda skeptical about this kind of logic.  Bishop doesn't bring the game closer to ending if you just trash Golds.  With Base+Intrigue Golds, you have a game that is longer than what is supposed to happen, even if it has a theoretical ending. 

A vampire pin has a theoretical ending too, eventually the vampire player has so much VP that it is mathematically impossible to lose, and he stops pinning, buys some copper, and plays dominion to finish it out.

I don't really like the logic I hear repeated that the official cards forcefully push every game to conclusion.  They don't.  Goons does, maybe.  Monument decks that stop buying cards are a real possibility, you don't see them reach lunacy because people just end things out with Colonies or Provinces, but it's there.  I saw a comment in a tournament thread about a KC monument comeback.  Many such decks use colonies once they've caught up as a formality, not because they need Green VP or can't repeat their loop.  And Bishop can buy Golds.  Sometimes VP chips do make for long games, people do make KC monument comebacks that extend the game.  Saying that the official cards don't favor looping strategies at all is undue deification of Donald, I think.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:51:13 pm by popsofctown »
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rinkworks

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2012, 07:38:35 pm »
+1

I'm kinda skeptical about this kind of logic.  Bishop doesn't bring the game closer to ending if you just trash Golds.  With Base+Intrigue Golds, you have a game that is longer than what is supposed to happen, even if it has a theoretical ending.

Huh?  Golds can run out.  When all the Golds are gone, you have to start in on some other card, and eventually another, and then, huh, the game's over.  It might be an incredibly long game, but it cannot be infinite.

Ditto Goons.

In theory, Monument does pose the risk of an infinite game, though.  It is a theoretical possibility that someone with a Monument deck might wind up doing better playing Monuments and NOT buying cards to dilute the Monument engine, and if this is also the case for at least one other player, you've got an infinite game, because it is in each player's best interest not to break the cycle.  In Donald's secret histories, I believe I remember him expressing this exact fear when he first devised the card.  But after the extensive playtesting, in practice, it wasn't particularly a problem, with one of the big reasons being that Monument's +$2 boosts your economy and thus incentivizes the purchasing of cards.

Vampire?  It's self-evidently more of a risk than Bishop or Goons.  It's probably, but indeed not necessarily, more of a risk than Monument is, just because it doesn't provide you with card-buying resources.  So it is absolutely correct and indeed imperative to ask the question, "Is the risk of this card leading to infinite games too great?"

This isn't good enough:

Quote
A vampire pin has a theoretical ending too, eventually the vampire player has so much VP that it is mathematically impossible to lose, and he stops pinning, buys some copper, and plays dominion to finish it out.

...Because you're only considering what one player is doing.  If only one player is doing this, then the other player is obviously buying cards and thereby moving the game toward an end state.  But what if he's not?  What if he's pursuing a mirror strategy?  If he's pursuing a mirror strategy than your theoretical vampire player is likely not accumulating an uncatchable lead.  And if he's not accumulating an uncatchable lead, might it always be a losing move to stop pinning and buy Copper?  Buying Copper, or indeed anything else, probably breaks the Vampire engine, in which case the other player continues to play it and pulls into the lead.  Now the best the first player can hope for is to get enough Victory cards to make up the difference, but buying those only fuels the other's Vampire engine, and it's entirely possible it won't be enough.  Or maybe it would be enough, but neither player wants to take the risk.

You might say that's an unlikely scenario.  You might be right.  But you're wrong not to consider the possibility, analyze it, and playtest it before you to dismiss it out of hand.  As I say, I'm not absolutely convinced that Vampire is broken in this manner, but it is self-evidently and calculably a greater risk for it than any official card.  Only Monument even allows the possibility, and its provision of an economy means it's got a leg up on Vampire.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2012, 08:15:25 pm »
0

Bishop in any game can have the monument problem - you somehow get down to a deck that is only a bishop, you basically already do have the monument problem.

Goons CAN, but it requires some convoluted trader play, or more convoluted ambassador play (possibly with moat/lighthouse?).

However, the most likely things for the never ending game are some versions of the KC/masq/X pin that are weak, where you don't really have enough power to be much faster than the opponent who you've pinned, and that opponent has a lead from chips/mats, AND you don't have any piles empty..... or some big possession thing where both your decks are largely built to do nothing but play oodles of possessions.
All pretty far-fetched as far as current cards go, but hey, crazier stuff has happened.

The card in question has oodles of big problems, of course.

popsofctown

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2012, 11:17:40 pm »
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I'm kinda skeptical about this kind of logic.  Bishop doesn't bring the game closer to ending if you just trash Golds.  With Base+Intrigue Golds, you have a game that is longer than what is supposed to happen, even if it has a theoretical ending.

Huh?  Golds can run out.  When all the Golds are gone, you have to start in on some other card, and eventually another, and then, huh, the game's over.  It might be an incredibly long game, but it cannot be infinite.
It's unacceptably long.  That's not really different from infinite in terms of the impact on casual play. 


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In theory, Monument does pose the risk of an infinite game, though.  It is a theoretical possibility that someone with a Monument deck might wind up doing better playing Monuments and NOT buying cards to dilute the Monument engine, and if this is also the case for at least one other player, you've got an infinite game, because it is in each player's best interest not to break the cycle.  In Donald's secret histories, I believe I remember him expressing this exact fear when he first devised the card.  But after the extensive playtesting, in practice, it wasn't particularly a problem, with one of the big reasons being that Monument's +$2 boosts your economy and thus incentivizes the purchasing of cards.
Bishop is actually worse than Monument, it creates unacceptably long games more frequently, especially with 60 golds (the number I'd prefer).  A card that leads to a draw in freak incidences is not as bad as one that leads to highly extended games in many a case.
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Vampire?  It's self-evidently more of a risk than Bishop or Goons.  It's probably, but indeed not necessarily, more of a risk than Monument is, just because it doesn't provide you with card-buying resources.  So it is absolutely correct and indeed imperative to ask the question, "Is the risk of this card leading to infinite games too great?"
Of course it's imperative.  I only take issue when I see posts that take a tone that creating any infinite possibility is a cardinal sin, and insist Monument and Bishop never create games of unacceptable length when they certainly do.  You seem to be able to concede Monument, at least, so you're not one of those people.
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This isn't good enough:

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A vampire pin has a theoretical ending too, eventually the vampire player has so much VP that it is mathematically impossible to lose, and he stops pinning, buys some copper, and plays dominion to finish it out.

...Because you're only considering what one player is doing.  If only one player is doing this, then the other player is obviously buying cards and thereby moving the game toward an end state.  But what if he's not?  What if he's pursuing a mirror strategy? 
Uh.  I'm confused here.  If you are pinned, you are not free to pursue a mirror strategy.  You start each turn with no cards in hand.  Are we using the same meaning of pin here?


I'm not saying Vampire is not ten times more dangerous than official cards.  I'm just saying the official cards can loop.  And if Vampire ends up pinning someone and then ending with estate, copper, and curses piling out, that's not any different from Bishop slogging through 60 golds.  In either case, a healthy attitude towards concession makes everything shipshape.

Vampire's main concern is partial pinning, and yeah that's a big deal.  But not hard pinning.  That moves the game to its conclusion as fast as anything can, because it's checkmate.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 11:18:55 pm by popsofctown »
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Powerman

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2012, 11:27:12 pm »
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4Player games when each player plays this once a turn, that means 2 card hands with one of them as a vampire.  that's pretty deadd
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2012, 01:06:31 am »
+2

Uh.  I'm confused here.  If you are pinned, you are not free to pursue a mirror strategy.  You start each turn with no cards in hand.  Are we using the same meaning of pin here?
Okay, so we're both setting up the same Vampire pin. You get me first, and take a thousand turns of me not being able to have a hand, and get so many points. Eventually, you start doing other stuff to end the game, but look! I still have the pin in my deck, and now you have no hand for TWO thousand turns. It's not like Masquerade pins where getting the pin first means you make the other guy lose the cards.
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ftl

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2012, 01:29:54 am »
+1

Regardless of theoretical discussions about the pin, I think it would be a better idea to make the attack less stackable - like all the other hand attacks in Dominion. The same reasoning why all the other attacks in Dominion don't stack so much still apply here. 3 or more plays of Vamp basically destroys your turn (leaves you with only 2 cards - usually that's not going to be enough of a turn to do anything) and it's fairly easy to envision having 3 or more vamps played between two of your turns, ESPECIALLY with more than 2 players. As rinkworks pointed out, lots of the attacks in Dominion have various protections so they can't be used to destroy an opponent's entire turn.

Maybe have it be "every player with more than 3 cards in hand discards a card" or something like that. Or the margrave-like ability suggested earlier.

It's less stackable when it's militia-like instead of margrave-like, but that might make it easier to balance. Based on your initial description of it, it didn't seem like the stackability needed to be an integral part of the card.
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Schneau

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2012, 07:38:16 am »
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Regardless of theoretical discussions about the pin, I think it would be a better idea to make the attack less stackable - like all the other hand attacks in Dominion. The same reasoning why all the other attacks in Dominion don't stack so much still apply here. 3 or more plays of Vamp basically destroys your turn (leaves you with only 2 cards - usually that's not going to be enough of a turn to do anything) and it's fairly easy to envision having 3 or more vamps played between two of your turns, ESPECIALLY with more than 2 players. As rinkworks pointed out, lots of the attacks in Dominion have various protections so they can't be used to destroy an opponent's entire turn.

Maybe have it be "every player with more than 3 cards in hand discards a card" or something like that. Or the margrave-like ability suggested earlier.

It's less stackable when it's militia-like instead of margrave-like, but that might make it easier to balance. Based on your initial description of it, it didn't seem like the stackability needed to be an integral part of the card.

I partially agree with this, but it also leads to problems in multi-player. If Player 1 plays 2 Vampires, he will likely get some good victory point chips out of the discards of players 2, 3, and 4. Then if player 2 plays 2 Vampires, only player 1 is able to discard things, so player 2 will be much less likely to get victory point chips. For this reason I like the "discard 1 card, draw 1 card" mechanic more for this card (even though it still has issues).
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rinkworks

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2012, 10:40:04 am »
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Bishop in any game can have the monument problem - you somehow get down to a deck that is only a bishop, you basically already do have the monument problem.

Ah, point.  Didn't think of that.  By the way, great to see you back in the forums.

It's unacceptably long.  That's not really different from infinite in terms of the impact on casual play.

It kind of is, although to a point it's nitpicky of me to say so:  If you have a degenerate Bishop game where all players find themselves trashing Golds every turn, it's possible for the players to come to the mutual agreement, "Well, obviously we're going to trash these Golds till the pile depletes, so let's just count how many Golds are left, give ourselves the right number of tokens, and play on from there."  I'm not saying that's an acceptable game state, but I am saying that if a card that allows an "unacceptably long" game has one strike against it, a card that allows an "infinitely long" game has a tangibly greater strike against it.  In both cases, the relative severity of those two situations must be multiplied by the risk that that situation might occur.  Then see if that result exceeds some threshold of acceptability.

The reason I objected to your original post is that you seemed to be implicitly equating the severity of a long Bishop-Golds game with the severity of an infinite Vampire game, AND equating the risk of falling into a degenerate Bishop game with the risk of falling into a degenerate Vampire game.  If I'm wrong about that, I'll withdraw from this debate.  But in addressing the technicality that Bishop can result in a degenerate game and not the qualities of the Vampire card that make it a greater risk for a worse degenerate state, the implication that Vampire should be unassailable on these grounds seemed clear to me.
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rinkworks

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2012, 10:48:34 am »
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A vampire pin has a theoretical ending too, eventually the vampire player has so much VP that it is mathematically impossible to lose, and he stops pinning, buys some copper, and plays dominion to finish it out.

...Because you're only considering what one player is doing.  If only one player is doing this, then the other player is obviously buying cards and thereby moving the game toward an end state.  But what if he's not?  What if he's pursuing a mirror strategy? 

Uh.  I'm confused here.  If you are pinned, you are not free to pursue a mirror strategy.  You start each turn with no cards in hand.  Are we using the same meaning of pin here?
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Vampire's main concern is partial pinning, and yeah that's a big deal.  But not hard pinning.  That moves the game to its conclusion as fast as anything can, because it's checkmate.

Yeah, I was thinking of a partial pinning situation, not a full pin.  Which I guess isn't a pin at all, really, so sorry for misunderstanding that.  My concern with the card was something like where both players have the 5-card deck "Village, Vampire, Vampire, Province, Province," let's say.  Each player plays Village, Vampire, Vampire, causing the other player to discard his Provinces, then has $0 to spend.  Buying Copper means (or might conceivably be thought to mean) that he'll disrupt his reliable income of 2 VP per turn, so he buys nothing, and draws his Provinces back into his hand for the opponent to score off.  Whoever stops playing his turn in exact this way probably loses, so the game never ends.
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DStu

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Re: Clasic_Cards #2: Vampire
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2012, 10:54:01 am »
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I like the "draw and discard" idea as a balancing feature. I don't like how it matches the concept, but that isn't damning of the idea itself.

That's only slightly different, a bit wordy, but probably a bit more on theme (as I understood, theme was the problem?): How about.

Code: [Select]
$(Every player discards down to 3 cards) [or whatever the standard wording is]
The player to your right/left/all players reveals then discards the top card of his deck. If it is a Victory card, +1VP
So do the attack Milita-style unstackable, but do the reward Tribute-style, so that everybody can profit from it. After all, most Vampires (at least the real ones) don't kill their victims, but just harm their victim in such a way that they can suck blood...

Edit: ... but of course that will take away the dilemma on which cards to discard (except rare cases)...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 10:56:34 am by DStu »
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