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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards  (Read 74636 times)

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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2012, 09:21:54 am »
0

I seem to be the guy that had Smithy/Envoy in 3/4, which probably is really too high.  I think I put it there in a mixed rating on being both pretty strong in BigMoney as well as engines. It's certainly not the strongest draw in engines, but at least it's a good draw, and it helps you to reliably spike an early $5 or $6 to come to the cards you really want, and nevertheless fits into the engine. And you probably don't want to play the 5th Margrave anyway, so if one or two of them are Smithies, the better for them.
In the BigMoney, it's also not the fastest, but again can be played to be combined with the more important $5-BM, and terminal draw works quite well with alternate Treasure. While, of course, terminal $2 is more extendable with Cantrips, but then you are half-way into an engine anyway...

So probably no killer in both situations, but therefore significantly important in both situations.
Tournament below is probably just my own incapability, 66% gain with -2 effect with +1.4 effect without can not be ranked in the top3.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2012, 09:24:29 am »
0

I'm in the Sea Hag camp. I know Jack beat Sea hag if both are in the kingdom. But Sea Hag is a must-buy more often than Jack.

The only card here I had considerably different was Monument. The extra VP is nice in BM games, but in an engine, it's a terminal silver with no benefit until scoring. Yes, it's an amazing benefit, but the lack of extra benefit means it's generally best to avoid until your engine is actually running, which means you only have 9 other cards to look at to get your engine built with. Hm, actually, that's still pretty good. Maybe I have been underrating Monument.

Monument is amazing in engines. Recently, I had a colony game with worker's village, Scrying pool and monument, it was damn fast.
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Fragasnap

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #127 on: July 23, 2012, 09:48:40 am »
0

JoaT dropped to #2?  But it DoubleJoaT dominates Sea Hag...
Double Jack dominating Sea Hag says nothing about which is actually a better card, only that when both are on the table, you'll probably go Double Jack rather than Sea Hag.
Jack of All Trades is a soft-counter to practically every Attack, so a strategy relying upon slowing down opponents is not going to bother a Double Jack strategy. That is not to say that Double Jack is the fastest thing in the world, simply the hardest to slow down and I've played plenty of games wherein slowing down opponents is not even an option.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2012, 10:45:59 am »
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Well, this section is much better than the previous 2. I agree that Smithy and Envoy are a tad overrated, and I probably overrated them myself. Great to see Silk Road get its due--it is actually better than Gardens.

But nothing is more satisfying than seeing the wildly overrated Caravan begin to tumble. It could stand to lose a few more places in my estimation.

For my money, the top 5 are monument, remake, tournament, jack, sea hag.... in that order.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2012, 10:56:00 am »
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I had Gardens over Silk Road almost solely on the strength of no-trash Curse games.  I acknowledge that Silk Road beats Gardens on the head-to-head, but I think it rarely beats it by such a wide margin that you would go alt-VP with Silk Roads but not with Gardens: you'd merely buy SR over Gardens if both are in the Kingdom.  (Obviously, there are a few, mostly Crossroads-powered, exceptions to this).  Junkball Curse decks are, I think, the main case where Gardens are better than Silk Road, and I think these sorts of games are more numerous than games with both Gardens and SR, or some sort of Victory card engine that actively prefers SR to Gardens.  So that's why I ranked them in the order I did.

But really the important thing is that they're next to each other since they're so similar, so it's good that happened.
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #130 on: July 23, 2012, 11:03:06 am »
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So how exactly should the game look like where you would go for Gardens, but not SR? And what value do you expect Gardens to get? Because usually, I don't think it's really difficult to get SR to 4VP, especially when not mirrored. And even 3VP is usually fine when coming from a Curse game.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2012, 11:05:43 am »
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Also, just FWIW my entire $4 rankings, since I've given them for $2 and $3:

1. Tournament
2. Remake
3. Jack of All Trades
4. Sea Hag
5. Bishop
6. Salvager
7. Young Witch
8. Caravan
9. Monument
10. Militia
11. Conspirator
12. Bridge
13. Island
14. Moneylender
15. Cutpurse
16. Spice Merchant
17. Worker's Village
18. Farming Village
19. Gardens
20. Silk Road
21. Envoy
22. Mining Village
23. Smithy
24. Horse Traders
25. Quarry
26. Ironworks
27. Throne Room
28. Baron
29. Walled Village
30. Remodel
31. Spy
32. Nomad Camp
33. Trader
34. Feast
35. Navigator
36. Bureaucrat
37. Coppersmith
38. Treasure Map
39. Noble Brigand
40. Talisman
41. Pirate Ship
42. Scout
43. Thief


If I was redoing this I would definitely swap Noble Brigand and Treasure Map, probably Feast/Navigator and Caravan/Monument as well.  Also would consider dropping Cutpurse a couple and raising Gardens/Silk Road- possibly have all three of them in between Worker's and Farming Village.

Pretty sure I stand by everything else here.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2012, 11:16:49 am »
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So how exactly should the game look like where you would go for Gardens, but not SR? And what value do you expect Gardens to get? Because usually, I don't think it's really difficult to get SR to 4VP, especially when not mirrored. And even 3VP is usually fine when coming from a Curse game.

Something like this: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110223-181051-d8c95698.html

Looking at my games it appears that a lot of my Gardens-Curse games would have given me the same number of points if they were Silk Road, so it's possible that I'm overstating this effect and SR is better in curse games than I give it credit for.  Thinking about it more closely, I'll postulate that for games where Gardens > SR, you're going to need not just bloat but the inclination to get Provinces too and not just rush- or you're using something like wacky Talisman shenanigans to bloat your deck with non-Victory cards.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2012, 11:44:40 am »
0

My $4 list:


1. Sea Hag
2. Jack of All Trades
3. Tournament
4. Remake
5. Monument
6. Young Witch
7. Salvager
8. Bishop
9. Militia
10. Envoy
11. Bridge
12. Smithy
13. Spice Merchant
14. Caravan
15. Moneylender
16. Horse Traders
17. Silk Road
18. Worker’s Village
19. Baron
20. Mining Village
21. Quarry
22. Ironworks
23. Gardens
24. Conspirator
25. Farming Village
26. Island
27. Cutpurse
28. Throne Room
29. Trader
30. Nomad Camp
31. Remodel
32. Navigator
33. Noble Brigand
34. Bureaucrat
35. Treasure Map
36. Talisman
37. Spy
38. Walled Village
39. Feast
40. Pirate Ship
41. Coppersmith
42. Thief
43. Scout


I definitely ranked Smithy/Envoy too good and Walled Village too bad. Pretty happy with the rest.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2012, 12:37:47 pm »
+2

I put young witch #1. I stand by that. The thing is, it has teh most impact on the games - even when I don't buy it, I'm almost always investing pretty heavily in the bane. It also beats everything in straight BM+1, whcih of course, never happens, but there you go. I assume people aren't giving it credit for being powerful when you by the bane instead of it, but I still give credit to YW there.
Tournament, well, in 2p, you do want it more often than the rest, perhaps, because you only don't want it in BM terminal draw, and well, basically any village + tournament is enough to go engine over BM. So you almost always want it in 2p (it's much much worse with more people, because you get blocked way more often). Okay, this is true, but it doesn't hit top 3 for me, because cursing is a bigger impact on the game, and jack can just steamroll so much stuff. Well, is jack up there that high really? I could see tournament over jack, I suppose - I go with jack, but I think this is probably stylistic more than anything, and objectively perhaps it isn't right.
Smithy and envoy - I think they are in roughly the correct place. They are not so great as BM strategies, but important baselines to consider. And they help a good bit in engines, in a pinch. I definitely like smithy a touch better than envoy, usually though. Well, probably I overrate these a little.
Gardens/SR: There are situations where gardens is better. Biggest one I can think of is IGG, but there's other hodge-podge of stuff. Very often they're going ot basically be the same. A decent amount of the time, SR will be better. So I have it a touch better overall.
Villages: Farming's benefit does not seem SO great to me, but it's nice. It's almost never going to get me to buy the thing over random regular village, but I guess it is a nice benefit I underrate a bit? I dunno, doesn't seem to be that big a deal for me - EXCEPT, in cases you can really leverage it. So with cartographer/apothecary kind of reordering things, and most particularly when facing a rabble engine. Mining, well, you need loads of plus buys to make it really good for an engine, you can use it to slingshot a bit, but you don't really want to do that so so much (silver, man). It's definitely nice for some sort of tweener decks, that aren't really engines, or BM, so the village is nice but not so necessary, or somethin'? I dunno, it's a nice thing to have, but not something that really makes the card as concretely good as it seems it ought to. Walled, eh, it's very meh benefit. But not nothing, and hey, I will take it when I need a village. So worker's. Worker's is the class of the 4s, and I have to say, I think probably the second best village, on average. Villages want engines, engines want buys, you get it all in this nice package. I mean, okay, you don't need 7 buys usually, so it's not so much the village you just get a billion of, particularly if there are a bunch of them out there. But the one I want to make sure I have? Yeah, worker's. Heck here, it even competes with fishing, sometimes. Well, most often fishing is better, of course, but worker's is the one you'll probably pass it up for most often. Though the gap from FV to WV is much bigger of course than from WV to the rest.
TR I probably overrated, and it compares fairly closely with the non-worker's $4 villages. But you know, it still plays fairly differently. Still seems to be a mid-high $4 to me.

Oh, monument. It's really really good. It is pretty darn good in BM - beats most of the terminal draw BM straight up, though not the best of them, and complements other non-draw BM cards pretty well (like, it goes nicely with Jack). And I think it is even better in a lot of engines - you get to play it a bajillion times, it lets you catch up from big deficits; and you actually never get into an unbreakable deficit; it makes BM change how he plays, sort of a lot. Of course it helped me complete the most ridicufying comeback of everness.

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #135 on: July 23, 2012, 02:54:35 pm »
0

So most of the discussion here has to be about the very top. There's not a whole lot to say about the rest. Everything is at least within 3-4 spots of where I had them.

I'm a bit surprised that 2 cards managed to squeeze between Envoy and Smithy, simply because I can't see too many people putting them anywhere other than right next to each other, regardless of how high or low they are, but it's not like the gap is huge. Probably just a couple people could have created that gap.

I also have Garden/Silk Road a bit higher (above Caravan and Militia) because I think they do have more of that game-changing ability. They create a larger number of situtaions where winning the Province split != winning the game, which affects strategy a lot. Maybe green earlier, maybe green later, but whatever it is, it has a much bigger impact than just workshop rushes.

Okay, now to the top 5: I submitted Tournament > Sea Hag > Young Witch > Remake > Jack, but I can see various orderings all being reasonable. My rationale was that Tournament/Sea Hag/Young Witch are bigger impacts on overall strategy, whereas Remake and Jack are just pretty much the best openings for engine and BM, respectively. Now being as good as they are, they do have an ability to make the difference between whether you should go BM or engine in a give board, but they don't give the game the same unique complexion that the other 3 give. Tournament does stuff like make Provinces the goal in Colony games, and very often makes the whole focus of the early game setting up a position where you are likely to be able to grab the first prize. Sea Hag like instantly makes games at least 3 turns longer by making a lot of early turns really useless, which is a really neat effect. Young Witch you definitely buy less than any of the rest of the top 4, but again, it's big impact even if you don't buy it. Probably at least 75% of the time you should buy either the Young Witch or the bane (I know a lot of people don't value this aspect in these rankings, so I'm not at all surprised it fell to #5). And it makes the order of the opening split really interesting, because depending on turn order, you might be able to skip bane or Young Witch when you see what your opponent does. And at the end of the day, it's a curser. Cursers are big impact cards. With all that said, I might still move Remake up 1-2 spots just on brute strength, depending on my mood when you ask me, but mostly I'm pretty satisfied with my rankings.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #136 on: July 23, 2012, 03:17:56 pm »
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My top 10 :

- Sea Hag
- Island
- Tournament
- Bishop
- Remake
- Young Witch
- Monument
- Silk road
- Gardens
- Jack

Maybe my "real" list was strongly different, I don't remember. It's really difficult to compare Monument-YoungWitch-SR-Gardens, especially. But I absolutely don't change my opinion about the first three.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #137 on: July 23, 2012, 03:22:59 pm »
+2

Island! Gah, I am such an Island hater.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #138 on: July 23, 2012, 03:32:56 pm »
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Young Witch you definitely buy less than any of the rest of the top 4, but again, it's big impact even if you don't buy it. Probably at least 75% of the time you should buy either the Young Witch or the bane (I know a lot of people don't value this aspect in these rankings, so I'm not at all surprised it fell to #5).

Well, it's true that you buy either YW or the bane most of the time.  I think that's actually a somewhat trivial observation.  In games with sufficiently strong banes, you're going to buy the bane whether or not Young Witch was out in the kingdom or not.  I don't think it's really fair to count games where, say, cards like Ambassador or Fishing Village are the Bane as games where Young Witch has a big impact.  You were buying those cards anyway, so the YW is just inconsequential.  And then, of course, there are games where Scheme is the Bane: okay, the YW makes you buy a Scheme early.  And that is all it does, big whoop.

A better metric would be, how often do you buy Young Witch or change your strategy considerably to buy the Bane?  And I think it's probably a bit less than 75 percent, though sure it's more often than just buying Young Witch.

Really, my rationale for ranking YW as low as I do is not so much that the Bane makes it skippable particuarly often, but that it's probably the curse-giver which I think is hurt most by the presence of trashing.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #139 on: July 23, 2012, 05:24:19 pm »
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The thing is that I feel like games with Young Witch, you have to go either YW-BM or engine+bane (maybe +YW as well) 75% of the time. If you go engine without bane, you'll lose to engine+bane if they add the Young Witch late and play it every turn. The other 25% of the time I'm including times when you buy the bane but don't care that it's the bane. I think Young Witch has a big and interesting impact a lot of the time -- often enough that it's really close in power level to Sea Hag, and putting them 3+ spots apart doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you can skip Young Witch in anything other than a power bane scenario, you can skip Sea Hag too. But we've had Sea Hag vs Young Witch discussion in some other thread before...
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dondon151

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #140 on: July 24, 2012, 09:36:21 pm »
+1

Mining, well, you need loads of plus buys to make it really good for an engine, you can use it to slingshot a bit, but you don't really want to do that so so much (silver, man). It's definitely nice for some sort of tweener decks, that aren't really engines, or BM, so the village is nice but not so necessary, or somethin'? I dunno, it's a nice thing to have, but not something that really makes the card as concretely good as it seems it ought to.

MV is great for getting you to that double Province buy on the last turn when your engine is choking down with green and you can't get enough $ normally. It's saved me often enough that I'd consider it second to Worker's Village and I'd prefer it to the other $4 villages when another +buy is in the kingdom.

I also never bust an MV prematurely for something more expensive. You get the extra $2 now, but you'd have to recover the $4 in value lost from the MV, and that's never ever given me an edge, in my experience.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 09:38:32 pm by dondon151 »
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Morgrim7

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #141 on: July 25, 2012, 03:58:36 am »
0

My top 10 :

- Sea Hag
- Island
- Tournament
- Bishop
- Remake
- Young Witch
- Monument
- Silk road
- Gardens
- Jack

Maybe my "real" list was strongly different, I don't remember. It's really difficult to compare Monument-YoungWitch-SR-Gardens, especially. But I absolutely don't change my opinion about the first three.
Why did you put Island at #2? Don't you think YW or Monument or Jack might be better? My top ten:
-Sea Hag
-Tournament
-Young Witch
-Jack of all Trades
-Remake
-Monument
-Bishop
-Silk Road
-Gardens
-Salvager?
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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #142 on: July 25, 2012, 04:08:05 am »
+1

What I think my top 10 was:

Sea Hag
Tournament
Remake
Jack
Young Witch
Salvager
Caravan
Baron
Militia
Scout


I may be a bit off about that 10th one there. Baron is sooooo underrated in this list.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #143 on: July 25, 2012, 04:08:36 am »
0

Morgrim : I explained why, and I stand by that. This is largely according my stats on councilroom.
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Morgrim7

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #144 on: July 25, 2012, 04:46:41 am »
0

What I think my top 10 was:

Sea Hag
Tournament
Remake
Jack
Young Witch
Salvager
Caravan
Baron
Militia
Scout


I may be a bit off about that 10th one there. Baron is sooooo underrated in this list.
A bit off? I agree with yu on Baron. And wow, totally forgot about Militia. Put it in between Bishop and Gardens.
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olneyce

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #145 on: July 25, 2012, 10:49:36 am »
0

1. Sea Hag
2. Tournament
3. Jack of all Trades
4. Remake
5. Young Witch
6. Caravan
7. Militia
8. Monument
9. Salvager
10. Bridge

I'm willing to consider the possibility that I'm overrating Bridge, but I feel pretty good about the top 9.  Maybe Caravan should be 8 or something, but that's getting out into the weeds of precision.

Baron is a good card and I had it at #6 or #7 the first time we did these lists.  I was wrong.  It's a good card but it's NOT a great card.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #146 on: July 25, 2012, 11:24:23 am »
0

I REALLY don't understand why so many high ranks for salvager.
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philosophyguy

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #147 on: July 25, 2012, 12:58:37 pm »
+1

I'm surprised by the high ranks for Caravan. It's never a card that will actively hurt your deck, but usually it doesn't do a ton to make your deck stronger. Unless you've got an Ironworks/Workshop/Talisman thing going on, Caravan is often a trap. What am I missing?
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #148 on: July 25, 2012, 12:59:46 pm »
+2

Salvager is one of the best TFB cards out there. It turns your opening Estates into something useful, lets you thin your deck, gives +Buy, and lets you accelerate the endgame if you're ahead. What's not to like?
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #149 on: July 25, 2012, 04:16:49 pm »
+1

Salvager: Trash an estate, lose no spending power over silver opening (quite strong for the 85% or whatever when it doesn't miss an estate). Then its also great in the endgame. Whats not to like?

Saying "caravan doesn't really help your deck" is rubbish. It's certainly the #1 or #2 3-4 cost cantrip, depending on how you define tournament. Anyone arguing that caravan is mediocre is also arguing that a 4$ lab is strong but not overpowered.
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