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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards  (Read 74653 times)

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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2012, 10:54:40 am »
0

Wow.
The first part was good overall, but a lot of disagreement about this second part.
Spice merchant : This one is crazily underrated. I still think it is a lot better than moneylender (well, moneylender is better early but gets progressively worse during the game, unlike spice merchant).
Island : It's me who have ranked Island so high (2nd). And I do not change my opinion. Island is SO good.

Otherwise, Smithy is not in the list yet. I can't believe that.   :o
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 10:55:59 am by brokoli »
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2012, 11:09:40 am »
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@Spice Merchant: My problem with SM is, Copper trashing without Estate trashing is usually problematic. So given another "unconditioned" trasher (or Island), SM is good. Trashing + Lab cycles fastly, trashing into Woodcutter gives you options if you can get an important $5 or Gold.  But without them, it get's a lot more problematic. There are other situations where I might consider SM, but still, the Coppers are your economy at the beginning, and when you remove them, without removing the real problem, you need to work to replace this economy. And Gold is unlikely with SM, so we are at Silvers, which takes some more buys to recover.

@Island: I just don't see why it should be anywhere only near #2 in this list.  At the start you give up a lot of tempo until you (maybe) get a benefit from it. If you have a chain, and you can Province-Island, that's really nice. If there's nothing at $5, but much at $4 and below, you maybe can even afford the loss of the tempo for VPs and a better deck. But usually that needs some of the cards I would rank above Island in this list...

Edit: Overall, also not much disagreement from me. From this card I only have 2 in the top16, Baron on #9, Horse Trader on #14.  Cutpurse is on #17, Quarry on #19, Conspirator on #27.  So some disorder in this middle field maybe, but that's all difficult to rank. Situationally very powerfull vs. usually usefull.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 11:17:20 am by DStu »
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #77 on: July 20, 2012, 12:42:00 pm »
+1

Wow.  Whole lotta disagreement going on.  To a certain extent this is unavoidable; the mid-level $4s and $5s are very subjective, and I'd expect the split between engine players and money players to be particularly pronounced here.  But, man, there are a lot of cards I didn't expect to see yet, and a lot of cards that really should have been in this group.

I had five cards here ranked at #16 or higher: Spice Merchant (16), Cutpurse (15), Moneylender (14), Island (13), Conspirator (11).
The five cards we have yet to see which I ranked lower: Worker's Village (17), Gardens (19), Silk Road (20), Envoy (21), Smithy (23). 

Worker's Village, Gardens, and Silk Road I have no complaints about.  I'm pretty sure WV will be at the bottom of the top group, almost exactly where I had it.  Gardens and Silk Road I fully understand why people rank higher; with everyone learning from WW's videos and grasping the power of alt-VP, I knew that my ranking was going to be lower than average and I'm okay with that.  Just want to emphasize that Gardens/SR really does need support- sometimes it changes the game, but sometimes it doesn't, believe it or not.

Envoy and Smithy, OTOH, absolutely deserve the lower ranks I gave them.  Envoy-BM and Smithy-BM are supposed to be great for Big Money, but actually in the grand scheme of things they're pretty mediocre BM strategies, and they're also pretty bad sources of +Card for engines, too: usually you want non-terminal draw, or draw that attacks, or other benefits that these cards just don't give.  You can use these cards, but whether you go engine or BM there is likely a better option out there.  I buy both of them less than 40 percent of the time, and that's not too little at all.

As for the cards I like more than most: Spice Merchant/Moneylender is the old engine vs. Big Money divide again.  A list that had these two cards in this group, and Gardens/SR in the higher group, is one I'd have precious little complaint about.  But I do think it's quite silly that Spice Merchant is so far lower than Moneylender.  It's a worse card on average, but just barely. 

Cutpurse is to Militia as Spice Merchant is to Moneylender.  Very similar, and worse but only barely.  The gap should be lower.  Eh, maybe I overrated it.  Ranking Island at #2 is madness, but I definitely remember that Island/Silver was a way better opening than many people gave credit for, and any source of VP that gets out of the way is great in my book.  Conspirator, okay sometimes there isn't support, but when that support is around, and I think it usually is, Conspirator is just too good.  Yes, I would like the functional equivalent of Grand Market for $4 (since there's only so much +Buy you can use)!

...

Other little things: I had Farming and Mining Village more or less swapped.  I have become less and less impressed with Mining Village's bonus as time goes on: popping it early is not something I like to do- if I need the economy I'd rather just go with Silver, if I need the engine I'm not going to give up +Action sources easily.  And popping it at the end is more often than not overkill.  I find Farming Village's defensive/fishing capabilities more useful more often, especially with copper trashing or deck-inspection attacks.

Horse Traders and Throne Room are overrated here, I'll try to explain why in another post.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 12:46:31 pm by chwhite »
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gman314

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2012, 01:08:08 pm »
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I'm looking forward to seeing how many ranks Worker's Village went up in order to pass Farming Village and Mining Village.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2012, 01:09:20 pm »
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Chwhite, I agree with your post, especially about Envoy and Smithy which are way overrated.
I agree... except this part :
Cutpurse is to Militia as Spice Merchant is to Moneylender.  Very similar, and worse but only barely.  The gap should be lower.  Eh, maybe I overrated it.  Ranking Island at #2 is madness, but I definitely remember that Island/Silver was a way better opening than many people gave credit for, and any source of VP that gets out of the way is great in my book.

I explained why I think Spice merchant is way better than moneylender so the cutpurse-militia/spice merchant-smithy comparison is inaccurate in my opinion. I seriously don't understand why people rank moneylender higher than spice merchant. And the stats on councilroom agree (http://councilroom.com/win_rate_diff_accum.html?cards=spice%20merchant%2C%20moneylender)

Well, I ranked Island so high for the same reason I ranked gardens and silk road higher than you : I love victory cards. It's simple, if duchy was on the $5 list I would rank it 1st. And same reasoning for all other victory cards. Island is a very nice opening buy, and 2VP are important at the end of the game. Finally Island is my 7th best effect with (I buy it 95% of the time !). So I persist : this card is underrated.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #80 on: July 20, 2012, 01:10:37 pm »
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I'm looking forward to seeing how many ranks Worker's Village went up in order to pass Farming Village and Mining Village.

Yeah, way back when I ranked the Villages and put Worker's below Farming and Mining, and somehow that mistake made it onto the front page of f.ds.  This was silly, and probably the source of Worker's previous underrating.  I definitely agree with the general consensus now that Worker's Village is the best $4 Village, and you should disregard anything I ever previously said to the contrary. 

Still more of a Farming Village fan than most, though.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #81 on: July 20, 2012, 01:10:40 pm »
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Yeah, this list is way more off than the other ones. Trader, Island, and Throne Room should be at the back of this group of cards. Not Ironworks, and certainly not Spice Merchant!

What else, I ranked Quarry quite a lot better (so dominating when it's good), Baron a lot better, Farming Village a little worse, and Moneylender and Spice Merchant a bajillion places better.

Spice Merchant is the most mis-ranked card so far in the new rankings. I put it at #13. A Copper trasher with decent cycling, flexible source of money, and even +buy in an emergency? Yes, please.
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Jfrisch

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2012, 01:13:37 pm »
0

vp cards, in general, are hard to rate because of there value as late game strong duchy/cheap duchy/nerfed duchy equivalent. This is obviously super important late game, but in a sort of different way from other cards.
I also agree with spice-merchant>moneylender, lab is (slightly) better than term gold for an engine, spicemerchant obviously can get you into more trouble but it's over-all increase in flexibility (woodcutter/can use other coins) makes up for it's slightly weaker opening behavior.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2012, 01:17:16 pm »
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Chwhite, I agree with your post, especially about Envoy and Smithy which are way overrated.
I agree... except this part :
Cutpurse is to Militia as Spice Merchant is to Moneylender.  Very similar, and worse but only barely.  The gap should be lower.  Eh, maybe I overrated it.  Ranking Island at #2 is madness, but I definitely remember that Island/Silver was a way better opening than many people gave credit for, and any source of VP that gets out of the way is great in my book.

I explained why I think Spice merchant is way better than moneylender so the cutpurse-militia/spice merchant-smithy comparison is inaccurate in my opinion. I seriously don't understand why people rank moneylender higher than spice merchant. And the stats on councilroom agree (http://councilroom.com/win_rate_diff_accum.html?cards=spice%20merchant%2C%20moneylender)

Well, I ranked Island so high for the same reason I ranked gardens and silk road higher than you : I love victory cards. It's simple, if duchy was on the $5 list I would rank it 1st. And same reasoning for all other victory cards. Island is a very nice opening buy, and 2VP are important at the end of the game. Finally Island is my 7th best effect with (I buy it 95% of the time !). So I persist : this card is underrated.

Oh, if Duchy was on the $5 list I'd rank it dead last. It's the worst card in the game. :P

(-6.48 Effect With, +8.55 Effect Without.  The numbers just keep getting larger and larger.)

I agree with you that Island is underrated!  But the top ten or so $4 cards are just so clear in my mind.

Yeah, this list is way more off than the other ones. Trader, Island, and Throne Room should be at the back of this group of cards. Not Ironworks, and certainly not Spice Merchant!

What else, I ranked Quarry quite a lot better (so dominating when it's good), Baron a lot better, Farming Village a little worse, and Moneylender and Spice Merchant a bajillion places better.

Spice Merchant is the most mis-ranked card so far in the new rankings. I put it at #13. A Copper trasher with decent cycling, flexible source of money, and even +buy in an emergency? Yes, please.

Well... at least we agree on Spice Merchant and Trader.

I actually had Baron a spot or two lower.   The ~30 percent chance of drawing Baron with no Estates on Turns 3/4 is just such a kiss of death that I can't rank it highly.  And then there are often just better options.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 01:22:23 pm by chwhite »
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2012, 01:20:52 pm »
0

vp cards, in general, are hard to rate because of there value as late game strong duchy/cheap duchy/nerfed duchy equivalent. This is obviously super important late game, but in a sort of different way from other cards.
I also agree with spice-merchant>moneylender, lab is (slightly) better than term gold for an engine, spicemerchant obviously can get you into more trouble but it's over-all increase in flexibility (woodcutter/can use other coins) makes up for it's slightly weaker opening behavior.

Lab is better than Gold for an engine, but not on Turns 3/4 when you don't have that much money yet.  Spice Merchant is boss in the Peddler/Conspirator/Market family of decks, but in general Moneylender actually helps you build up your buying power faster.

And, yeah, I'm well aware that a lot of the times Gardens/SR gets bought, it's as a substitute Duchy in "normal" decks.  That's kind of exactly why I ranked it lower than most. :)
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2012, 01:26:41 pm »
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Nonsense! If we could rank Duchy I would call it the est $4. You always have to buy a Duchy.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2012, 01:26:55 pm »
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Nonsense! If we could rank Duchy I would call it the est $4. You always have to buy a Duchy.

And I know thems fighting words.
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Jfrisch

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2012, 01:27:09 pm »
+1

clearly moneylender is much better on the first reshuffle, and spice-merchant is much better for basically the rest of the game. I value the rest of the game over the first reshuffle.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2012, 01:27:53 pm »
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clearly moneylender is much better on the first reshuffle, and spice-merchant is much better for basically the rest of the game. I value the rest of the game over the first reshuffle.

I think they are close, but Spice Merchant is a little better.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2012, 01:33:59 pm »
+1

Nonsense! If we could rank Duchy I would call it the est $4. You always have to buy a Duchy.

And I know thems fighting words.

There's only one possible response to that.

Vote: Robz888

Seriously, much of the time Duchy is only a card you buy if you're losing.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #90 on: July 20, 2012, 01:35:33 pm »
+3

Nonsense! If we could rank Duchy I would call it the est $4. You always have to buy a Duchy.

And I know thems fighting words.

There's only one possible response to that.

Vote: Robz888

Seriously, much of the time Duchy is only a card you buy if you're losing.

And it's never a card you buy for a $4... FoS: Myself
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #91 on: July 20, 2012, 01:39:14 pm »
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I actually had Baron a spot or two lower.   The ~30 percent chance of drawing Baron with no Estates on Turns 3/4 is just such a kiss of death that I can't rank it highly.  And then there are often just better options.

The thing is, I almost NEVER open with baron (same for salvager), because of the chance of drawing baron with no estates. However, this card is so strong in drawing engines (Stables, Hunting party, Lab, nobles, village+cards, ...)
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2012, 01:44:09 pm »
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I actually had Baron a spot or two lower.   The ~30 percent chance of drawing Baron with no Estates on Turns 3/4 is just such a kiss of death that I can't rank it highly.  And then there are often just better options.

The thing is, I almost NEVER open with baron (same for salvager), because of the chance of drawing baron with no estates. However, this card is so strong in drawing engines (Stables, Hunting party, Lab, nobles, village+cards, ...)

Baron has slowly become a card that I usually veto if I can, because much of the time you feel compelled to open with it, and if it works out for your opponent but not you, that's so strong. And like you say, it's very good in drawing engines.
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AJD

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2012, 01:53:59 pm »
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You always have to buy a Duchy.

"You want to buy a Duchy?"
"A what?"
"A Duchy."
"Does it quatchy?"
"...What in the heck are you talking about?"
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2012, 02:14:11 pm »
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Cards I had much higher:

Island (11 vs 25) - Island is a really, really strong opening for money decks. Like really strong. You give up a little tempo, but you get points and a trimmer deck.

Spice Merchant (15 vs 28) - People have talked about this, but I'm in the company that feels it's better than Moneylender. The thing is, both are only good when you want to make an engine. Engines need +buy, and Spice Merchant gives that.

Cutpurse (16 vs 23) - It's not really almost as good as Miltia. It's kind of a lot worse, because it gets worse as the game goes on, but it's still a really strong opening.

Trader (21 vs 27) - I don't know. Maybe I just like reactions... I might have overrated this one, but I feel like it's a really good defense against the strongest attacks, and it stuffs your deck with money, which is also useful in curse games, where you probably can't build an engine.

Cards I had much lower:
Conspirator (30 vs 17) - Conspirator dropped a lot in my personal rankings. Maybe it's a bit much, but still, 17 seems really high. Conspirator can be a power card, and provide most of the economy for an engine, but it just needs so many other parts around. You need drawing AND trashing AND buy/gain AND usually villages, so while it may feel like the most powerful card in the engines it's used in, it's often really just an addition to make an otherwise workable engine stronger. Most of the time, even when you buy it, it's not a card that really dramatically changed the strategic landscape of the board the way a card that near the top third should.

Throne Room (29 vs 21) - Throne Room is just really hard to rate, as Qvist mentioned, so I can't really argue much here.

Baron (32 vs 24) - I'm actually surprised I ranked this so low, but then if you look at the 8 cards immediately below it on this list -- Island, Quarry, Trader, Spice Merchant, Ironworks, Remodel, Noble Brigand, and Walled Village -- I like them all more than Baron...
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2012, 02:17:12 pm »
0

if duchy was on the $5 list I would rank it 1st.
The way I see it, you usually like to swindle people's $5 cards into Duchies, so they can't really be that good...
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #96 on: July 20, 2012, 02:24:28 pm »
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if duchy was on the $5 list I would rank it 1st.
The way I see it, you usually like to swindle people's $5 cards into Duchies, so they can't really be that good...

Well, not toward the end of the game. Then you swindle their Duchies into $5 Actions.
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cherdano

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #97 on: July 20, 2012, 02:38:09 pm »
0

I think Trader is underrated by a couple of spots in this list. The reaction is just so strong in cursing games, and "flood your games with silver" is a very strong Big Money strategy. After you traded your estates into couples of silvers, the goal isn't to trade silvers for more silvers, the goal is to trade one or two $4/$5 cards and be resilient to greening.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #98 on: July 21, 2012, 11:17:19 am »
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Cards I had significantly higher :
- Spice Merchant : #13 vs #28 I'm in the camp that finds it slightly above Moneylender, although I guess it's more about personal taste than anything else at that point.
- Trader : #17 vs #27, which I now think is too high, but I still like the card more than something like Baron.
- Island : #15 vs #25 : what can I say... it's good. Island/Silver is an opening I quite like, and Island is just a sweet card. chwite covered that much better.
- Moneylender : #14 vs #20 : I love Moneylender, it's a very strong opening buy in engine-y decks. Again, it has already been covered.

Cards I had significantly lower :
- Quarry : #35 vs #26 : Quarry really isn't that good. I guess it all comes down to the whole consistency vs power thing, since when it's good, it's really good, but it just doesn't happen that often.
- Cutpurse : #28 vs 23 : Cutpurse is definitely no Militia. Sure, it's a fine opening buy, but it doesn't really synergize with much of anything, and weakens much quicker than Militia does.
- Conspirator : #26 vs #17 : See Quarry, basically. It's good much more often than Quarry, but that's still not that often.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #99 on: July 21, 2012, 11:53:33 am »
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I think conspirator is fine where he is. Unlike others, I think it's easy to pull off a conspirator chain : you need trashers, but copper trashers are enough. And you don't specially need villages...
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