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Qvist

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The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« on: July 16, 2012, 10:10:59 am »
+6

The Best $4 Cards - Part 1/3
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#43 ▼1 Scout (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 42.43 ▼3.31 / Median: 43 ▼4.5 / Mode: 43 ▼6 / Standard Deviation: 1.6 ▲3.7
Highest Rank(s): #34 (1x), #37 (1x), #38 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (37x)

Scout is the worst $4 card. Even though it wasn't last the last time, there's no surprise here. With very few outliers and more than the half voting it last, its deviation is by far the lowest of all $4 cards. The discussions about this card in the last months exposed its weakness.

Scout has its uses. You don't need to spend an action, but it isn't a cantrip, so it really can hurt your deck. If you're massively greening this can be nice as it makes your next turn better, but is still not good. The best uses are: making Crossroads way better, it has a nice synergy with Wishing Well (making it a cheap Lab) and of course it's great with dual-type-victory cards like Harem, Great Hall and Nobles, making Scout a Lab or even better. There might be more edge cases when Scout shines, but even when it shines you often do better skipping Scout, because you waste a turn marginally improving your deck.
#42 ▲1 Thief (Base) Weighted Average: 41.32 ▼0.1 / Median: 42 =0 / Mode: 42 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 2.4 =0
Highest Rank(s): #30 (1x), #33 (1x), #34 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (16x)

Thief went up a rank, but the points nearly stayed the same. So, Thief is still as bad as before. And there's no doubt. It has the second lowest deviation as it was voted last or second last by a third of all players.

An attack on such a low position may seem strange, but Thief has the big problem helping your opponent in the early game. Its a free trasher for your opponent and even later it's so risky hitting the Coppers of your opponent. Its only use may be in thin Chapel decks or if you manage to play it multiple times per turn. And it gets better in 3- or 4-player games, where you can minimize the risk of getting nothing and hitting Coppers. It can be a nice counter against a Ill-Gotten-Gains rush dealing out curses with it and got a boost in Hinterlands because of Fool's Gold too, but it is still swingy and still a bad card. You don't want it early and in the later game it's almost never worth a buy.
#41 =0 Coppersmith (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 39.14 ▼0.87 / Median: 40 ▼1 / Mode: 41 =0 / Standard Deviation: 3.7 ▲2.5
Highest Rank(s): #22 (1x), #24 (1x), #31 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (4x)

Coppersmith is the third last card with 18 players ranking it there. It has a really low deviation with a much higher consensus this time and yet it has two big outliers. It has a big lead over Thief and Scout, but it still lost nearly one point.

Yes, Coppersmith is very hard to rank, because it's either clearly the worst card on the board or it's very dominating. As a opener you may get to $6 or even $8, but you also can draw only one Copper, so it's very swingy as a opener and gets worse later. On the other hand King's Court + Coppersmith can become brutal and it has some nice synergy with Apothecary, Counting House and Tactician. The cases where it shines may occur more rarely than with any other card, but then it's a must-buy.
#40 =0 Talisman (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 37.00 ▲0.84 / Median: 37 ▲1.5 / Mode: 36 ▲4 / Standard Deviation: 4.7 ▼0.5
Highest Rank(s): #16 (1x), #17 (1x), #29 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (5x)

Talisman has still a low deviation and another big lead over the previous card. No-one ranked it last, but 5 people ranked it second last and 10 people ranked it on #36. The much higher mode and the two big outliers led to an increase of nearly one point, but it is still on the same rank.

There are very few cards for $4, you want in masses. Silk Road and Gardens may be a exception, but Talisman doesn't work with victory cards. So there are even less cards you want for free with Talisman. Fool's Gold, Caravan and in some cases Throne Room, Conspirator and Tournament came to my mind being the only cards which makes Talisman a good buy, especially as a opener. You can build a Village + Smithy/Envoy quicker too, but this is rarely worth a Talisman buy since you need money too. But it shines especially with cost reducers like Quarry, Bridge and especially Highway. Play Highway, play Talisman, buy Highway, get one for free, that's nice. Talisman is also nice for a quick 3-pile ending. This works well with Bishop for example: get many Talismans and then Bishops, trash Talismans for 3VP and try to three-pile. But Talisman also can hurt very badly since the free extra card is not optional, so only buy Talisman if you really want cheap card in masses. And don't forget: if you're buying more expensive cards you've spent $4 for a Copper.
#39 ▼6 Spy (Base) Weighted Average: 36.24 ▼4.07 / Median: 37 ▼5 / Mode: 38 ▼7 / Standard Deviation: 3.6 ▲3.1
Highest Rank(s): #27 (1x), #29 (1x), #30 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (2x), #43 (1x)

What a big drop! We're now in a region where all the cards are really close together, but it still lost 4 points and the consensus is much higher this time, it has even the third least deviation. It was 12 times on #38 and this time had really no big outliers.

An attack that is a cantrip, that seems nice at the first look. But Spy is an attack with a pretty bad attack and little benefit. It's very swingy as you can discard your victory card (or even your Tunnel) and discard the only Witch of your opponent, but you can hit a victory card of your opponent too that you put back. That's no change for your opponent and he even may use that additional info for the next turn. You can add a Spy in your drawing engine if you have a buy and money left, but is really rarely worth a buy. It's a cantrip that doesn't hurt your engine and can really shine in a Scrying Pool+Jester engine (or any other engine that takes profit from knowing the top card of the opponent's deck), but the benefit it gives you is marginal, similar to Scout. If we already mentioned cards with different costs (Warehouse and Cellar), the way better Cartographer comes into my mind.
#38 ▼6 Treasure Map (Seaside) Weighted Average: 35.35 ▼3.78 / Median: 36 ▼4.5 / Mode: 33 ▼2 / Standard Deviation: 6.5 ▲2.3
Highest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #14 (1x), #18 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #39 (3x), #40 (1x), #42 (1x)

Another big drop of 6 ranks and nearly 4 points. The standard deviation is now higher, but still the consensus is much higher compared to last time. Treasure Map was on #33 11 times and has a few big outliers. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #37; newer players ranked it higher.

Treasure Map's power is undeniable. An early enabling can already decide a game. But you can hardly call it strategy going for Treasure Map. You really need enablers for that, like Warehouse, Chapel, Tactician or the Watchtower/Talisman combo. If you go for Treasure Map without such enablers, you totally rely on your luck. And losing against a totally luck-based enabling can really be frustrating.
#37 ▼3 Pirate Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 35.28 ▼2.57 / Median: 36 ▼3 / Mode: 40 ▼7 / Standard Deviation: 7.5 ▲1.1
Highest Rank(s): #5 (2x), #22 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (3x)

Pirate Ship is only 0.07 points higher than Treasure Map and has an even higher deviation, but still gains consensus and there will be more cards with much higher deviation. It wasn't even last and got two big outliers on #5, but got many bad ranks with 8 votes on #40. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #36, so this is another card that newer players seem to rank higher.

There's the next attack that trashes treasures. This time it's not the best one anymore. The high ranks may result from players mainly playing 3- or 4-player games where Pirate Ships can be devastating. In 2-player games it's too slow most of the times. So, with Pirate Ship you really want to buy as many as you can, so you can play them multiple times, and with Throne Room or King's Court this card is really great.
#36 ▲1 Navigator (Seaside) Weighted Average: 35.18 ▼0.62 / Median: 36 ▼1 / Mode: 40 ▼8 / Standard Deviation: 4.8 ▲0.9
Highest Rank(s): #18 (1x), #19 (1x), #26 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (2x), #43 (2x)

Navigator went up a rank, but still lost points. It was a very close fight for #36 with a lead of 0.10 points over Pirate Ship and 0.17 points over Treasure Map. It has also 2 last places and there's only one card with at least one last place left. It has relatively high consensus and it was voted 8 times on #40. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #38; newer players seem to underrate it.

Scout is at least non-terminal and therefore nice for Wishing Well to draw the top-decked cards. Top-decking the next 5 cards in a specific order is only nice if you have still an action left to draw a few of them. Because if you don't do that, you draw all 5 cards no matter in what order you put them back. The discarding option is nice to minimize shuffle luck and to get a half Chancellor effect, but still it is terminal and most of the time there are better terminal cards on the board. At least it gives you $2. The best use still may be to enable Tunnel's reaction.
#35 ▼4 Feast (Base) Weighted Average: 34.00 ▼3.75 / Median: 35 ▼3.5 / Mode: 36 =0 / Standard Deviation: 5.6 ▲2.6
Highest Rank(s): #13 (1x), #20 (1x), #23 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (3x)

Feast is another card with a big drop. It lost 4 ranks and nearly 4 points too. It's the next card with a much higher consensus this time with only one outlier. It's the first card which wasn't neither last nor second last. In the unweighted ranking this would be on #34, another card that newer players seem to overrate a little bit.

Feast basically does nothing but being a one-shot balancing bad shuffle luck, especially at the start. If you really want a specific $5 card and have a 4/3 opening you can open with Feast and can be sure to get that $5 card soon. It also can be used with Throne Room and King's Court to gain multiple $5 cards. It's only other use is gaining Duchies, especially in Duke games.
#34 ▲5 Bureaucrat (Base) Weighted Average: 33.77 ▲1.98 / Median: 34 ▲3 / Mode: 34 ▲5 / Standard Deviation: 6.2 ▼0.9
Highest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #16 (1x), #18 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (3x)

It was very close, but Bureaucrat is better than Feast. It went up 5 ranks and 2 points, but is one of the first cards with higher deviation too. Last time it hadn't one vote above #20, now it has 3 votes. On the other side it's the last card with a last place; it has even 3 last places. It was voted on #34 7 times. In the unweighted ranking this card would be on #35, it's underrated by newer players.

The attack of Bureaucrat is weak. Your opponent loses one card that he don't need anyway for him getting another 4 card hand in the next turn. And he might even be able to counter that easily by playing Farming Village for example. The attack gets better in multiplayer games, especially if there are dual-type victory cards like Nobles or Harem on the board. The benefit on the other side still isn't good either. Top-decked silvers are nice, especially in the beginning and you can get to $8 with 4 silvers too, but it's not easy. So it seems Bureaucrat is nice where you don't want to get to $8 and Silver is a good card, like in Duke / Silk Road and especially Gardens games, but then Bureaucrat is a good counter too. And you can play your Bureaucrat less frequently if your deck is already flooded with silvers. Bureacrat + Big Money is not bad on the other side as it doesn't seem to have synergies with other cards.
#33 ▲3 Nomad Camp (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 33.38 ▲0.54 / Median: 34 ▼0.5 / Mode: 35 ▼3 / Standard Deviation: 4.7 ▲0.6
Highest Rank(s): #16 (1x), #22 (1x), #25 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #40 (5x)

Nomad Camp is the first card which wasn't voted in the Bottom 3 with 5 votes on #40. It only has a slightly better average, but still managed to go up 3 ranks. It was voted on #35 10 times.

Woodcutter was the third worst $3 card. Here we have a Woodcutter with a on-buy top-deck ability. Is it worth costing $1 more? And how can it be that it ranks higher than Woodcutter? IMO there are only 2-3 reasons for that. You have a high chance to get a $5 card on turn 2 even with a 4/3 opening (so Witch / Monad Camp is on #86 and Nomad Camp / Trading Post at #91 of the best openings). Similar to that it is nice you need the +Buy either way and need multiple cheap cards as fast you can. But the only opening which is strong without $5s is IMO Nomad Camp / Fool's Gold / Fool's Gold on #339 of the best openings. The last reason is if you're really unlucky in the late game and only get $4 and want to maximize the chances to hit $8 in the next turn. Beside of that it's only an expensive Woodcutter.
#32 ▲3 Walled Village (Promo) Weighted Average: 30.30 ▲2.56 / Median: 31 ▲1.5 / Mode: 29 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 6.1  ▼1.4
Highest Rank(s): #17 (2x), #18 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #39 (2x), #41 (2x)

A big jump of over 3 points and Walled Village seems to leave the "really bad cards area". It went up 3 ranks and also two and a half points. But it also loses consensus with a much higher deviation this time. It was on #29 8 times. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #31.

It is the worst of the four $4 villages. Why? Its only ability is top deck it if you weren't able to use both actions. So this is nice if you have only 2-3 terminal actions and really want to play them each time without taking the risk of colliding. That's especially useful with Torturer. The only reason opening with Walled Village could be if there's a $3 key card and you want a second one later too. Because of that Walled Village / Masquerade and Walled Village / Ambassador are Level 4 openings rankings on #87 ▲4 and #95 ▲19 on Councilroom respectively. In all other cases it is the same as the normal village.
#31 ▲7 Noble Brigand (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 30.19 ▲5.52 / Median: 31 ▲5.5 / Mode: 29 ▲11 / Standard Deviation: 6.1 ▼0.5
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #11 (1x), #16 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (2x), #42 (1x)

It was close, but Noble Brigand is better than Walled Village. And it's another Hinterlands card with a huge boost. It went up 7 ranks and 5.5 points. The mode is even 11 points better (8 times on #29). Not all players noticed the boost in power, so the deviation went up a little bit. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #32.

Noble Brigand is the better Thief on many boards. It hasn't the disadvantage of trashing the opponents Coppers, making it a better opener. It even attacks on-buy. It deals out Coppers too, which is nice playing against no-treasure decks. And it gives $1 too, so you have at least an immediate benefit. But it's worse in Colony games as it cannot steal Platinum, it cannot steal Ill-Gotten-Gains like Thief and cannot steal other Kingdom treasure cards. And most important: it's still too slow and doesn't hurt enough if you can't play one nearly each turn. Noble Brigand + Big Money is not that bad on weak boards and a good counter to many strategies.
#30 ▼1 Remodel (Base) Weighted Average: 28.16 ▼3.08 / Median: 29 ▼6 / Mode: 32 ▼10 / Standard Deviation: 6.4 ▲2.7
Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #12 (1x), #13 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (2x), #37 (1x), #39 (1x)

Remodel is the next card with a much higher consensus this time. It has still a solid lead over Walled Village, but it loses 3 points and even 10 points in mode. After Remodel is the biggest gap in this list, so I included it in the bottom third.

Remodel introduced us to the cards that trash for a better card. As a opener it has big problems trashing the Coppers, because you need either good $2 cards on the board you want in masses like Fool's Gold (Remodel / Fool's Gold is on #168 of the best openings) or Lighthouse or you need to remodel in 2 steps (Estate to Silver or another $3-$4 card) which is not really a good idea. But Remodel is good in the later game. Just remodel your money in the respective victory card. It seems some of you take the opener qualities more into account while others did it vice versa.

To the second part
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 03:48:22 pm by Qvist »
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shark_bait

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2012, 10:20:43 am »
+3

Just sayin', but Noble Brigand is way too low.  IMO, a BM strategy with the Brigand will almost always beat one without one.  The on purchase effect just makes it such a powerful card.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2012, 10:22:38 am »
0

The big drop of feast surprises me, and I don't think it is that bad, but it is a hard card to rank...
Quote from: Qvist
another card that newer players seem to overrate a little bit.
I have the opposite impression. I completely ignored feast when I started Dominion.

Other disagreements : I think coppersmith is slightly underrated, and Walled village & Navigator slightly overrated. I haven't played a lot of games with noble brigand yet, but don't think it is that good compared to thief. I have to pay more attention to this card...
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2012, 10:50:03 am »
+2

Feast is just terrible. I may have been one of those 41s. Compare feast to, say, horse traders, which may as well read, "+1 buy. Don't trash this card. Gain a card costing up to 5. Or do other cool things, your choice. Oh, by the way, sweet reaction if there's attacks." Now, feast has its uses (it's no scout), and it goes well with king's court, but it's a bad card.
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Tables

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2012, 11:06:07 am »
0

I have two big disagreements on this list. First is Noble Brigand, which shark bait already nailed. Noble Brigand + Big Money is not 'not that bad'. It's one of the best $4 Big Money enablers, especially against other BM decks. The fact it gives +$1 also helps, as it's not just a meh attack.

The second is Bureaucrat. I had it second bottom. Can someone please tell me the kind of deck that benefits from Bureaucrat, and why they're common enough and boosted enough by Bureaucrat, that it should be above... just about everything it is except Scout? It's not good in engines - if you're running an engine, there's a good chance your opponent is too, so the attack is probably doing very little, and the Silver on deck isn't really helpful. Big Money? It's too slow. It's a BM enabler, but not an especially good one (pre-edit: I see it actually beats BMU something like 60/30, which is better than I imagined). Honestly, it just seems to never really fit into a deck.

The only other big-ish disagreements I had were Treasure Map (it's very good if you can enable it, and those situations are less rare than many people imagine. Yes it's awful on most boards, but it's great on some), and to a lesser degree Thief and Pirate Ship - because they're good in 3+ player.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2012, 11:28:48 am »
0

Feast is just terrible. I may have been one of those 41s. Compare feast to, say, horse traders, which may as well read, "+1 buy. Don't trash this card. Gain a card costing up to 5. Or do other cool things, your choice. Oh, by the way, sweet reaction if there's attacks." Now, feast has its uses (it's no scout), and it goes well with king's court, but it's a bad card.
Of course, Horse traders is a very good card. But unlike feast, HT gain a 5$ card in your buy phase. With Feast, you may buy a $2/$3/$4 during your buy phase and gain a 5$ with feast.

And really, it is much better than walled village or nomad camp...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 11:29:55 am by brokoli »
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2012, 11:32:16 am »
0

The fact that people ranked Noble Brigand over Walled Village absolutely blows my mind.  Like, that is just utterly inconceivable to me.  I know people have been trying to rehabilitate it, and I have at least come around to it being better than Pirate Ship... but it's still a really bad card most of the time.  Nothing-better-than-Village for $4 is way more useful.

I had almost all the same cards in this group- the only difference was I had Trader down here instead of Walled Village, and that barely missed the cut at #29- but I really disagree with some of the rankings within this group:

* I guess I can't complain too much about Scout being last rather than Thief, but yeah I still think Thief is the worst.  I just don't think it's possible for any non-terminal, no matter how weak and marginal (and Scout is for sure the weakest non-terminal around), to approach the depths of badness that the worst terminals do.

* Coppersmith is underrated.  I think a lot of people have gotten to the point where they realize it's a bad opener, and once you see the value of trashing it's easy to see the uselessness of Coppersmith in most setups.  But perhaps a lot of people haven't seen that Coppersmith is actually a really, really good source of money in +Action/+Card draw-your-deck engines.  It's a narrow card, so it belongs in this group, but it can be powerful, so it deserves better than third-from-last.  I had it at #37.

* I had Spy higher, all the way up at #31.  As with Scout, non-terminals are just too generally useful.  Spy is never the star, but there are a whole host of engine decks where I'm happy to pick a few up (Goons and Conspirator support are among my favorite reasons to grab Spy).  Can't be too upset that Spy was lower than I had it- I expected that- but I am pretty shocked it fell below Treasure Map and Pirate Ship if nothing else.

* Oh, yeah, Treasure Map and Pirate Ship.  They suck.  They suck really really horribly.  I guess they're not actually too far off my ranking, they just seem like it because they're above Spy and that's just wrong.

* And of course I had Noble Brigand much lower.  I had it all the way down at #39, which probably was a couple spots too low.  Probably should have swapped it and Treasure Map (which was my #38).  I do now realize that it's a strong buy for the second player on Turn 1 if Player 1 got a Silver and the board leans Bog Money, but that's a lot of ifs.  It's hard for me to take it over other terminals even on BM boards, since when I try to go Brigand I ALWAYS ALWAYS lose.  Ugh, I really dislike this card.
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2012, 11:34:15 am »
+1

The second is Bureaucrat. I had it second bottom. Can someone please tell me the kind of deck that benefits from Bureaucrat, and why they're common enough and boosted enough by Bureaucrat, that it should be above... just about everything it is except Scout? It's not good in engines - if you're running an engine, there's a good chance your opponent is too, so the attack is probably doing very little, and the Silver on deck isn't really helpful. Big Money? It's too slow. It's a BM enabler, but not an especially good one (pre-edit: I see it actually beats BMU something like 60/30, which is better than I imagined). Honestly, it just seems to never really fit into a deck.
Just everything where you really want Silvers. Gardens, Silk Roads, Dukes for first. Cursers without trashing second. There are not many cards that gain you Silver, so usually there is no alternative for this functions on these boards. And you gain it on top, which is nice especially in bloated decks, and a little attack as bonus.

Bureaucrat is my best "Win rate with" (1.7). It's gained in only 15% of the games, but in these niche it does what it should, and it does it quite well. Yeah, if I could have a Jack instead I would usually take it over Bureaucrat, but you don't have a Jack every game.

Edit: My much liked Bureaucrat from the last times here.
YW, no trashing, XR bane with Great Halls. We would spend all the game with them low-cost cards, having ugly decks. You want to spend $3 on GH, but you also want some money. So here he comes. And he attacks the XR.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 11:39:20 am by DStu »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2012, 11:38:06 am »
0

So far so good. Everything is within 4 spots of my list except Walled Village, which I have 7 spots higher. We'll see where the other villages fall, but I do recall last time that for some mysterious reason Walled Village was rated significantly worse than Farming Village despite serving practically the same purpose most of the time.

Regarding Feast, it's not that it's terrible to have a Feast, it's that most of the time it makes minimal impact. There are a reasonable number of situations where it's better than Silver, but outside of price manipulation strategies, it's never that much better than Silver.

Regarding Bureaucrat, while you can argue that it's rarely useful, you can say the same thing about all the cards below it except maybe Navigator and Treasure Map, so it's not that mis-rated.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 11:41:49 am by HiveMindEmulator »
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2012, 11:40:13 am »
0

I have two big disagreements on this list. First is Noble Brigand, which shark bait already nailed. Noble Brigand + Big Money is not 'not that bad'. It's one of the best $4 Big Money enablers, especially against other BM decks. The fact it gives +$1 also helps, as it's not just a meh attack.

The second is Bureaucrat. I had it second bottom. Can someone please tell me the kind of deck that benefits from Bureaucrat, and why they're common enough and boosted enough by Bureaucrat, that it should be above... just about everything it is except Scout? It's not good in engines - if you're running an engine, there's a good chance your opponent is too, so the attack is probably doing very little, and the Silver on deck isn't really helpful. Big Money? It's too slow. It's a BM enabler, but not an especially good one (pre-edit: I see it actually beats BMU something like 60/30, which is better than I imagined). Honestly, it just seems to never really fit into a deck.

The only other big-ish disagreements I had were Treasure Map (it's very good if you can enable it, and those situations are less rare than many people imagine. Yes it's awful on most boards, but it's great on some), and to a lesser degree Thief and Pirate Ship - because they're good in 3+ player.

Wow, I am the complete polar opposite of this.

As for when the B-crat is good: It's most consistently strong with Gardens, Dukes, and Silk Roads.  B-crat/Gardens is not going to beat an Ironworks rush, but it is actually quite good at playing a longer Gardens game that soaks up a few Duchies and Provinces, too. 

Sometimes it can fit into other decks, too.  It's a mediocre BM enabler, but it's far from the worst.  And then there's this game, which is one of my all-time favorites: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111116-123304-8afe13dc.html
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2012, 12:09:59 pm »
0

I think people underestimate the easy "buy a couple bureaucrats, green obscenely early" strategy. It's not great, but it's an OK big money strategy in a pinch. With something like duchess or silk road on the board and nothing "good," it's probably better than envoy + big money? Don't quote me...
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2012, 12:10:55 pm »
+9

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2012, 12:19:40 pm »
0

I think people underestimate the easy "buy a couple bureaucrats, green obscenely early" strategy. It's not great, but it's an OK big money strategy in a pinch. With something like duchess or silk road on the board and nothing "good," it's probably better than envoy + big money? Don't quote me...

Bureaucrat/Silk Road is fairly widely recognized as a strong strategy.  I am happy to play that against most BM decks and even some engines.

Bureaucrat/Duchess... is something I'd have to see in action before I'm convinced it's any good.
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Fabian

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2012, 12:43:26 pm »
+1

Assuming both ehunt and chwhite are mixing up Duchess and Duke? Color me confused otherwise.
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2012, 12:53:46 pm »
0

Nope. I meant duchess. I think bureaucrat is OK with duke, but not great. Too many bureaucrat silver copper copper duchy hands.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2012, 12:57:11 pm »
0

I guess someone needs to explain Bureaucrat/Duchess to me then, because I'm not seeing how that strategy is even intended to work, never mind how it would actually come close to being decent. Buy lots of Duchies.. to get lots of Duchess.. to get to Province..? I'm so confused.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2012, 12:58:37 pm »
0

I can only see duchess being useful if there's another alt vp, otherwise what's the third pile? Estate would be too slow for too little payout.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2012, 01:01:10 pm »
0

Assuming both ehunt and chwhite are mixing up Duchess and Duke? Color me confused otherwise.

No, I meant Duchess (in response to ehunt).  Bureaucrat/Duke is quite good, and I say this as someone who is not a fan of Duke in general.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 01:02:26 pm by chwhite »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2012, 01:03:15 pm »
0

I guess someone needs to explain Bureaucrat/Duchess to me then, because I'm not seeing how that strategy is even intended to work, never mind how it would actually come close to being decent. Buy lots of Duchies.. to get lots of Duchess.. to get to Province..? I'm so confused.
This is mostly with duke, silk roads or gardens on the board I presume. If not, it would have to be a REALLY weak board..

I think chwhite is undervaluing NB a lot. I probably had it a few high spots higher than this list (is there any way to check my own list if I didnt think to save it anywhere upon making it?), NB just rrreally good in big money..

The list looks more or less ok though.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2012, 01:13:14 pm »
0

I guess someone needs to explain Bureaucrat/Duchess to me then, because I'm not seeing how that strategy is even intended to work, never mind how it would actually come close to being decent. Buy lots of Duchies.. to get lots of Duchess.. to get to Province..? I'm so confused.

What I have in mind is something like - open bureaucrat/silver, get more silver and possibly a lucky gold on second shuffle, pick up a second bureaucrat with 4 on second shuffle. Around turn 5 start preferring duchy to silver with 5 money, taking a duchess whenever possible. Around turn 7 (i.e. just after you've shuffled your deck) prefer duchy to gold with 6-7, still taking a duchess whenever possible unless it's ridiculous. Obviously always buy province when possible. Goal is 3 provinces and 5 duchies, can win with 2 provinces and 7 duchies as long as it grabs some estates. Maybe it's terrible, I dunno, I am not allowed to play dominion on pain of five hundred dollars but perhaps you can simulate it?
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Fabian

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2012, 01:33:41 pm »
+1

I'll leave the simulating to someone else, but after my very scientific and extensive testing, I deem the strategy to be bad after losing 1 game against straight BM (well, it grabbed Duchess when buying Duchy in the lategame)

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/16/game-20120716-103133-e7535959.html
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2012, 01:43:43 pm »
+1

omg i hate losing to bengster
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2012, 04:53:09 pm »
0

Navigator seems overrated to me (I put it third to last). It's a tunnel enabler, but what else is it good at? The discard/reorder ability is really something you want for engine support, but as a terminal, it's likely to increase inconsistency, not decrease it. And if you reliably have the spare actions to play your navigator before your drawers, you probably don't need the it in the first place. Navigator is probably the only card besides scout that has never once may me say, "wow, I'm really glad I bought this card." Not that navigator is as bad as scout, but it's pretty bad.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2012, 05:36:37 pm »
0

Well, if I had voted I would have put Coppersmith last ! Then, the main problem of Scout is its cost ! It looked good when you played Intrigue only because of Great Hall+Nobles+Harem (and sometimes Duke, too) but when you play with everything else...

Thief is useless, okay !
Talisman and Spy aren't that bad ???
And I understand why Pirate Ship gets a so high deviation.

Overall, it's weird to see how the "new bad cards" have lost many ranks, while Bureaucrat + Nomad Camp (which is nothing more than woodcutter + topdeck ???)... and I'm a bit sad about this good old Remodel in the last third.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2012, 05:42:22 pm »
+4

YES, SCOUT BEATS THIEF, SWEET!!!

Seriously, this has made my day. Scout is not only the worst $4 card, it is the worst card in all of Dominion, period. I feel like me saying this over and over again has helped win this glorious day. I am so happy.

We did it everyone. Scout is worse than Thief. It is known.

Now to read the rest of the list...
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2012, 05:48:24 pm »
0

Should be ranked worse: Pirate Ship (worse than Spy and Talisman), Feast (worse than Navigator, at least), Walled Village (awful), Noble Brigand (just a few spots)

Should be ranked better: Spy and Treasure Map (but not much better, really they are close to where they belong), Nomad Camp (it's better than Walled Village, just absurd to say otherwise)
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ftl

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2012, 06:00:28 pm »
+3

Walled Village can't really be much lower, because, well, it's still a village; "+1 cards +2 actions" is pretty necessary for an engine whether it's priced at 3 or 4. The bonus WV provides is pretty mediocre, but even without the bonus, it's still useful. I mostly like this list, and the places where my own list deviates from it I think this one is more right than mine...
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2012, 06:43:49 pm »
+1

i post this every 3 months on the dominion strategy forum, but walled village + ambassador is a pretty solid opening, one of the few village openings that's worth it.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2012, 07:19:53 pm »
0

i post this every 3 months on the dominion strategy forum, but walled village + ambassador is a pretty solid opening, one of the few village openings that's worth it.
Not enough, I still wasn't aware.


Walled village is sooo good on paper.  I think we all are using it wrong. 
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2012, 07:52:33 pm »
0

Nomad Camp (it's better than Walled Village, just absurd to say otherwise)

How can Nomad Camp be better than Walled Village if Village is better than Woodcutter?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2012, 10:18:32 pm »
0

I think Nomad Camp is way overrated.
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iangoth

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2012, 10:37:13 pm »
+1

A lot of it comes down to perception rather than objective strength. People see walled village and think, "This card sucks! It's hardly better than a regular village!" But hey, you're probably going to buy most of your villages with $4, anyway. When you need extra actions for your engine, you're not thinking, "Aww man, all I've got is walled village. I guess I better go for big money + bureaucrat instead." when you've got $4 and a choice between village and walled village, you don't say to yourself, "I better take vanilla village. It's just so much better than walled village!"

Nomad camp get's a bit of the opposite effect. People think, "This on-gain effect is really neat! I can use this to get a 4/5 opening, and I can buy these late to shore up my economy as I green!" These are some cute and sometimes useful abilities, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a woodcutter at heart, and 90% of what it really does is provide a +buy when there's nothing better around. Which isn't all that bad, but you're way more likely to want a walled village.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2012, 11:35:53 pm »
0

Nomad Camp (it's better than Walled Village, just absurd to say otherwise)

How can Nomad Camp be better than Walled Village if Village is better than Woodcutter?

Because Nomad Camp's boost over Village is pretty cool, whereas Walled Village's boost over Village is useless.

Yeah, I absolutely stand by this. Walled Village to me is just a slightly more expensive Village. What it does just isn't useful, because the whole point of buying villages is to play Action chains. Walled Village sticks around if you happen to draw it without your Actions, but that's really not that great.

Nomad Camp's top-deck ability isn't amazing, but it can be useful--way more useful than Walled Village's thing.
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iangoth

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2012, 11:41:05 pm »
0

I'd take a plain village over a nomad camp 80% of the time.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2012, 11:44:55 pm »
0

I'd take a plain village over a nomad camp 80% of the time.

Well, I'm more a money guy then an engine guy, so it might be personal preference.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2012, 11:45:55 pm »
0

I'd take a plain village over a nomad camp 80% of the time.

You certainly wouldn't on Turns 1, and 2, where Nomad Camp is often a good play; not all the time, but sometimes. Walled Village is only an option if an Action engine is viable, and if there are absolutely no other villages.
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iangoth

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2012, 11:51:21 pm »
0

True enough
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2012, 11:52:34 pm »
0

I'm with ehunt that walled village-ambassador is a really cool/useful opening.

But besides using it to guarantee double Amb is never drawn dead, it's a Village. The top deck effect is kinda useful? It's more of a small consistency bonus than anything else. Although it's hard to tell how much it helps, I'm pretty sure it doesn't help that much.

Nomad Camp to get $5 on turn 2 never quite works for me. I mostly use it to pick up a +Buy if there isn't much better. I'd still put Walled Village over Nomad Camp, I just like the card more.
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Tables

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2012, 12:04:38 am »
0

Nomad Camp's top decking is pretty powerful. It's good early. It's probably the best way to use a $4 in many late game slogs. Mid game it's a little less good, but like a Wizard, it lets your +buy card(s) arrive precisely when you mean it to.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2012, 12:09:06 am »
0

In looking at my rankings, I put Nomad Camp way better than Walled Village. I had Nomad Camp at #30 and Walled Village at #38.

I think Nomad Camp just matches my style of play a lot better than Walled Village, perhaps. It's much better with alt-VP strategies and such. I am probably overrating, yeah. Still, I like its benefit just so much more than Walled Village's. Nomad Camp is a Woodcutter with a lot more teeth, because you can play for when it comes up (like, next turn). Walled Village is essentially the same thing as Village, just $1 more expensive.

My bottom 5 cards, btw, were: Scout, Thief, Coppersmith, Pirate Ship, Feast. I think I stand by all those as worse than Talisman and Spy, and I loathe Talisman and Spy. And how did Navigator lose to Feast? That's nonsense.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 01:37:08 pm by Robz888 »
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iangoth

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2012, 02:01:44 am »
0

Funny, looking back at my rankings, I actually put nomad camp over walled village, too.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2012, 02:09:37 am »
0

Looking over my rankings, I had all the same cards at #30 and below as this list. So that's nice.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2012, 03:25:08 am »
0

I'd take a plain village over a nomad camp 80% of the time.

You certainly wouldn't on Turns 1, and 2, where Nomad Camp is often a good play; not all the time, but sometimes. Walled Village is only an option if an Action engine is viable, and if there are absolutely no other villages.

Nomad Camp is so rarely the right play early too. Unless you're going for massing $2 cards or Copper, you don't have anything to do with the +buy anyway.
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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2012, 03:36:48 am »
0

Walled village is like 90% as good as farming village. It's the worst 4$ village, but really its not that bad and certainly situationally better. It's ranked closed to appropiately, mebbe 1-2 spots too low but certainly not too high.

WV < FV = WV < MV
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2012, 03:37:48 am »
0

I'd take a plain village over a nomad camp 80% of the time.

You certainly wouldn't on Turns 1, and 2, where Nomad Camp is often a good play; not all the time, but sometimes. Walled Village is only an option if an Action engine is viable, and if there are absolutely no other villages.

Nomad Camp is so rarely the right play early too. Unless you're going for massing $2 cards or Copper, you don't have anything to do with the +buy anyway.

Well, usually when you buy it Turn 1, it's because you hope to buy a critical $5 before the first reshuffle. There are quite a few $5s--Witch, Mountebank, IGG, Hunting Party, to name a few--where this is usually worth it.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2012, 03:42:50 am »
0

Throw in modified gardens/silk roads rushes, duke games, fools gold (as in article), certain 2$/3$ combos (say, NC/Lookout/Lighthouse as a counter to some attack), and late-game buys.

I mean, I find it has a real effect on the late game more frequently than say, Farmland, which while managing to be a completely different card serves a somewhat similar effect.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2012, 04:18:28 am »
0

And how did Navigator beat Feast? That's nonsense.
Absolutely not. I really don't understand why navigator is so high, it seems as bad as chancellor for me… And I think I even buy chancellor more often. There are a lot of more interesting terminal actions-silver for 4$ : Bridge, monument, militia, curpurse, …
On the other side, feast is only a one shot so it doesn't conflict with these actions, and is pretty good for engines which doesn't really want silvers (minion…).
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2012, 04:56:11 am »
0

And how did Navigator beat Feast? That's nonsense.
Absolutely not. I really don't understand why navigator is so high, it seems as bad as chancellor for me… And I think I even buy chancellor more often. There are a lot of more interesting terminal actions-silver for 4$ : Bridge, monument, militia, curpurse, …
On the other side, feast is only a one shot so it doesn't conflict with these actions, and is pretty good for engines which doesn't really want silvers (minion…).

Navigator is not very good, I agree. It's hard to justify as your terminal. But Feast is... nothing. Feast is absolutely nothing. It's a card that trashes itself to give you 1 copy of a card you probably could have bought anyway if you'd just gotten Silver instead of Feast, except you use Silver multiple times and Feast only once. Yeah, occasionally you can do tricks with it thanks to Throne Room and King's Court, treasure-less engines...  but those are extreme edge cases.

Feast is just a nothing. That still makes it better than Pirate Ship, Coppersmith, Thief, and Scout, which are all worse than nothing in most cases. But yeah, it's not better than Navigator.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2012, 05:27:48 am »
+2

WV < FV = WV

That's a bold statement...
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2012, 05:38:57 am »
0

I'd take a plain village over a nomad camp 80% of the time.

You certainly wouldn't on Turns 1, and 2, where Nomad Camp is often a good play; not all the time, but sometimes. Walled Village is only an option if an Action engine is viable, and if there are absolutely no other villages.

Nomad Camp is so rarely the right play early too. Unless you're going for massing $2 cards or Copper, you don't have anything to do with the +buy anyway.

Well, usually when you buy it Turn 1, it's because you hope to buy a critical $5 before the first reshuffle. There are quite a few $5s--Witch, Mountebank, IGG, Hunting Party, to name a few--where this is usually worth it.

Doubtful. You only have a 40% of actually getting that $5 card, and if you don't have a backup plan to do something good with your 2 buys and $4, then you're left having opened Woodcutter/Silver 60% of the time. Go to the sim and add a buy rule for Nomad camp on turn 1 to the Witch/Mountebank bots . They become worse than just opening Silver/Silver on 4/3. Hunting Party improves, but that's just because a terminal Silver adds a lot to a HP deck. Navigator still does better as an opening even though it has a negative synergy forcing bad reshuffles. Similarly with IGG, it's better than Silver/Silver, but not better than Navigator or even *gasp* Feast.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2012, 05:46:29 am »
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What about Scout + Baron, Tournament or Explorer (or if there are similar style cards in the expansions to come), pairing off cards with what you need to make the cards work?

Or is this considered one of the "niche" uses of Scout?
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2012, 05:49:04 am »
+2

And how did Navigator beat Feast? That's nonsense.
Absolutely not. I really don't understand why navigator is so high, it seems as bad as chancellor for me… And I think I even buy chancellor more often. There are a lot of more interesting terminal actions-silver for 4$ : Bridge, monument, militia, curpurse, …
On the other side, feast is only a one shot so it doesn't conflict with these actions, and is pretty good for engines which doesn't really want silvers (minion…).

Feast still conflicts with these actions because you would have to buy the Feast instead of them. The thing is that if there's Monument or Militia, you're not going to open Navigator or Feast. Navigator, however, is at least a decent opening some of the time, when the typically stronger openings are not available.
http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=scout%2C%20thief%2C%20coppersmith%2C%20talisman%2C%20spy%2C%20treasure%20map%2C%20pirate%20ship%2C%20navigator%2C%20feast%2C%20bureaucrat%2C%20nomad%20camp%2C%20walled%20village%2C%20noble%20brigand%2C%20remodel
Notice that Navigator is the only card on this list that has a positive winrate on turn 1-2. (Also note that Walled Village is the only other one that is positive at any point before turn 25, for all the Walled Village haters.)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:51:18 am by HiveMindEmulator »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2012, 05:52:45 am »
+1

Quote
What about Scout + Baron, Tournament or Explorer (or if there are similar style cards in the expansions to come), pairing off cards with what you need to make the cards work?

Or is this considered one of the "niche" uses of Scout?

I think the niche is more or less Great Hall, Harems, Nobles.

Scout-Baron is nice when they collide (without Estate), but if they don't? When you play the Scout, you might draw the Estates away from the Baron in the next hand. If you don't play it, you would have loved a Silver instead. Tournament is perhaps nicer, because you usually have some more Tournaments than Barons, making them more likely to collide, and Tournaments risk to turn into gimped Scouts anyway in the midgame. So replacing the 3rd or 4th Tournament with a Scout might be not wrong.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2012, 11:15:09 am »
0

Walled Village is only an option if an Action engine is viable, and if there are absolutely no other villages.

Massive untruth.

What is true is that Walled Village has the weakest bonus of the $4 Villages by far.  But even that is not absolute: I will prefer Walled Village to Farming, Worker's, and Mining in Torturer games, where the top-decking is really useful for lining up an early double-Torturer hit.  Sometimes Walled Village's bonus is also useful in other decks as well, especially those with a few powerful terminals and no cantrips.

Torturer is admittedly the only consistent case where it's competitive with the other $4 Villages- but it's a big case!  And you also need to take into account the cheaper Villages too, because in many engine decks you will be buying them for $4.  If I have $4 and want Village, well Walled Village is strictly better (even if by only a tiny amount).  And it's pretty frequently preferable to Shanty Town and Native Village as well.  As for the more expensive Villages... well I'll never spend $5 on a Walled Village when Bazaar is around (barring cases like HoP/Fairgrounds).  But what if I only have $4, and need a Village?

Look, I'll agree that on average Walled Village is the worst Village.  But it's not always the worst Village, and even so Villages are so important to the game that it is madness to have even a bad Village that low.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 11:38:03 am by chwhite »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2012, 11:29:18 am »
0

My bottom 5 cards, btw, were: Scout, Thief, Coppersmith, Pirate Ship, Feast. I think I stand by all those as worse than Talisman and Spy, and I loathe Talisman and Spy. And how did Navigator beat Feast? That's nonsense.

My bottom 5 were Thief, Scout, Pirate Ship, Talisman, Noble Brigand.  Brigand was probably a mistake (even though I am still sure it's a lock for the bottom 10), but the others not at all.  Of course, Coppersmith is a card that only works in certain engines (Spy too), so I'm not surprised you underrate it. :P

I had Feast as one spot above Navigator- I'm not sure that was correct, but I am sure they're close in power.  Feast is weak, but it is not "nothing".  Uses include:

* opening when there are power $5s you absolutely need, and it's an enginey board that doesn't want too too many Silvers (the most common use, and the one I suspect you are thinking of when you say it's "nothing").
* Duke games (WW beat me with a surprisingly strong Feast-powered Duke rush not that long ago)
* cost shenanigans
* gain them with University, get Duchy later
* TR/KC

And how did Navigator beat Feast? That's nonsense.
Absolutely not. I really don't understand why navigator is so high, it seems as bad as chancellor for me… And I think I even buy chancellor more often. There are a lot of more interesting terminal actions-silver for 4$ : Bridge, monument, militia, curpurse, …
On the other side, feast is only a one shot so it doesn't conflict with these actions, and is pretty good for engines which doesn't really want silvers (minion…).

There are a lot more interesting terminals at $4, yes!  But there are worse ones, too.  Navigator is a mediocre card that is only as high as it is because some of the $4s are just so god-awful. 

Navigator is also more useful than Chancellor in engine decks (obviously, those with lots of Villages that can spare the terminal space)- in addition to the early-game cycling, it gives you more control later on, and reordering the cards you put back can be useful with cards like Scrying Pool.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2012, 11:33:24 am »
0

I think the niche is more or less Great Hall, Harems, Nobles.

Scout is decent support for Scrying Pool and Vineyards decks, too.

I think everyone that is putting Scout last instead of Thief– the once, future, and always weakest card in the game– is forgetting this fact.

...

Another thing.  Way back when, I played a game against tat (#1 on the leaderboard at the time), and lost almost solely because I neglected to buy Scout.  Such a thing has to my recollection never, ever happened to me because of neglecting Thief, and you'd think it would after 8,000 games if Thief was better.  Which it isn't.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 11:44:40 am by chwhite »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2012, 11:51:02 am »
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Count me in as those mystified by the Walled Village hate.  chwhite and iangoth have done better at presenting my own stance, but I'll chime in anyway just to reiterate the fact that the $3-$4 price difference is teensy, and you buy $3 cards with $4 to spend all the time.  So why should Walled Village be so hated for the narrowness of its bonus ability when a vanilla Village costing $4 would often be an important card to have?

Indeed, it is the weakest and most situational of the $4 Villages, but that hardly makes it one of the worst $4 cards in general.  And of course the idea that Shanty Town and Native Village are necessarily going to be better alternatives is silly.

We've also had two cases where Walled Village becomes preferable to other $4 Villages:  as an opening with Ambassador, and in Torturer games.   That's actually pretty impressive -- still narrow, but for an ability you don't need for the card to be a decent card, not bad.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2012, 11:55:58 am »
+1

* Duke games (WW beat me with a surprisingly strong Feast-powered Duke rush not that long ago)

The most hilarious game of Dominion I've ever played was an University game where I used the Universities to gain Feasts, then the Feasts to gain Gardens.  Hilarious, because I used the "Gain an action card costing up to $5" ability to get a $4 card whose only power is to get $5 cards, and then using that to gain another $4 card.

There was more to it than that (earlier in the game I was getting actual $5 actions with my Universities and switched to Feasts later), but still.  Funny game.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2012, 12:42:43 pm »
+3

I think people hate Walled Village for the same reason I hate Cellar.

Warehouse exists, Cellar is worse?

Fishing Village/Worker's Village/etc. exists, Walled Village is worse?
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2012, 12:55:31 pm »
0

I think people hate Walled Village for the same reason I hate Cellar.

Warehouse exists, Cellar is worse?

Fishing Village/Worker's Village/etc. exists, Walled Village is worse?

Walled villlage is like paying 1 extra for a village. The 'bonus'? You can top deck it but if you top deck it you didn't really do what you wanted to do with that village so the 'bonus' is more like adding salt to the wound
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2012, 12:57:23 pm »
0

Walled Village is only an option if an Action engine is viable, and if there are absolutely no other villages.

Massive untruth.

What is true is that Walled Village has the weakest bonus of the $4 Villages by far.  But even that is not absolute: I will prefer Walled Village to Farming, Worker's, and Mining in Torturer games, where the top-decking is really useful for lining up an early double-Torturer hit.  Sometimes Walled Village's bonus is also useful in other decks as well, especially those with a few powerful terminals and no cantrips.

Torturer is admittedly the only consistent case where it's competitive with the other $4 Villages- but it's a big case!  And you also need to take into account the cheaper Villages too, because in many engine decks you will be buying them for $4.  If I have $4 and want Village, well Walled Village is strictly better (even if by only a tiny amount).  And it's pretty frequently preferable to Shanty Town and Native Village as well.  As for the more expensive Villages... well I'll never spend $5 on a Walled Village when Bazaar is around (barring cases like HoP/Fairgrounds).  But what if I only have $4, and need a Village?

Look, I'll agree that on average Walled Village is the worst Village.  But it's not always the worst Village, and even so Villages are so important to the game that it is madness to have even a bad Village that low.

What about Mountebank?  Shouldn't that be good with WV?
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2012, 01:07:02 pm »
0

I think people hate Walled Village for the same reason I hate Cellar.

Warehouse exists, Cellar is worse?

Fishing Village/Worker's Village/etc. exists, Walled Village is worse?

Walled villlage is like paying 1 extra for a village. The 'bonus'? You can top deck it but if you top deck it you didn't really do what you wanted to do with that village so the 'bonus' is more like adding salt to the wound

Well, sure (except in Torturer games, where it's your opponents that get salt in their wounds).  If vanilla Village cost $4 I'd rank it above Noble Brigand and Trader without hesitation.

Basically in my eyes the "bonus" is good enough to move it above Remodel.  One spot of ranking.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 01:08:09 pm by chwhite »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2012, 01:30:08 pm »
+4

If you try to play a shanty town like a village it is worse than a village. If you try to play a walled village like a village then it is just a more expensive village. If you play your walled village like a walled village it is worth an extra coin.

Quote
What about Scout + Baron, Tournament or Explorer (or if there are similar style cards in the expansions to come), pairing off cards with what you need to make the cards work?

You need to be sure the deck is working in the way you expect. Without the right support, such as a drawing card to play after the scout, the scout might only be of limited value.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 01:36:19 pm by DG »
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2012, 01:42:03 pm »
0

I think people hate Walled Village for the same reason I hate Cellar.

Warehouse exists, Cellar is worse?

Fishing Village/Worker's Village/etc. exists, Walled Village is worse?

True. But Warehouse is just one card that does Cellar's thing, but better. Walled Village has quite a few cards that give you a better (or cheaper) village with a bonus. There may be niche cases where I prefer Walled to Farming, but usually if they are both available I really prefer Farming. Same goes for Worker's, Mining. Then obviously Fishing, Festival, and Bazaar are differently priced but pretty much just way better. And even Hamlet and Native will do what you want, but you can grab two of them at once.

Because Walled Village is so similar (but a little inferior, usually) to 8 other cards, I really do think it is outmoded most of the time it shows up.
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dondon151

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2012, 02:03:12 pm »
+2

It's only truly similar to the 3 other villages that cost $4. In the extreme minority of kingdoms where WV is present with another $4 village, then yeah, it is outmoded and may as well never be bought (except when Ambassador and Torturer are present). I guess you could say the same if Fishing Village or Hamlet shares the kingdom or Native Village on a very small percentage of kingdoms.

When there are more expensive villages around, then WV fills its niche by being a cheaper, serviceable alternative. It's much easier building an engine with $4 villages and $5 payload cards than it is with $5 villages (of course, if you can and should get a Bazaar or Festival, then you should get one).

And when there are no other villages around, then WV is just a village. Village ranked in the top 50% of $3 cards, so I'm not too sure why WV is in nearly the bottom 25%.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2012, 05:06:38 pm »
+1

Sure you may rarely want Walled Village when there are other $4 villages on the board, but you still want it more often than all the other cards on this list.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2012, 05:13:28 pm »
0

Sure you may rarely want Walled Village when there are other $4 villages on the board, but you still want it more often than all the other cards on this list.

Not me. I want Nomad Camp more.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2012, 05:17:34 pm »
0

With NC, I like to ask myself, is the 40% chance to get $5 worth having a Nomad Camp in my deck.  And then of course there is also the did I just trash 2 Treasure Maps gaining 4 Gold on top of my deck?  If Yes, then I like to buy NC.  :)
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2012, 05:22:33 pm »
0

Sure you may rarely want Walled Village when there are other $4 villages on the board, but you still want it more often than all the other cards on this list.

Not me. I want Nomad Camp more.

That's because you're severely overrating Nomad Camp. It's extra ability is sexier than that of Walled Village, but at the end of the day, it suffers from all the problems you complain about with Walled Village. Outside of a few special situations where you want to be using +buy from turn 2, it's worse than mostly all of the other +buy cards out there -- and there are twice as many +buy cards as villages.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2012, 06:04:06 pm »
0

And how did Navigator beat Feast? That's nonsense.
Absolutely not. I really don't understand why navigator is so high, it seems as bad as chancellor for me… And I think I even buy chancellor more often. There are a lot of more interesting terminal actions-silver for 4$ : Bridge, monument, militia, curpurse, …
On the other side, feast is only a one shot so it doesn't conflict with these actions, and is pretty good for engines which doesn't really want silvers (minion…).

Feast still conflicts with these actions because you would have to buy the Feast instead of them. The thing is that if there's Monument or Militia, you're not going to open Navigator or Feast. Navigator, however, is at least a decent opening some of the time, when the typically stronger openings are not available.
http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=scout%2C%20thief%2C%20coppersmith%2C%20talisman%2C%20spy%2C%20treasure%20map%2C%20pirate%20ship%2C%20navigator%2C%20feast%2C%20bureaucrat%2C%20nomad%20camp%2C%20walled%20village%2C%20noble%20brigand%2C%20remodel
Notice that Navigator is the only card on this list that has a positive winrate on turn 1-2. (Also note that Walled Village is the only other one that is positive at any point before turn 25, for all the Walled Village haters.)

Neat graph.

Also of note: Thief is consistently well below Scout.  And is dead last by a mile until it gets taken over by Treasure Map, where it settles into second-last.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2012, 08:38:12 pm »
0

Scout is not as harmful of a card to have in your deck as thief, under the vast majority of circumstances. But the circumstances you want thief in are way more plentiful than those you want scout in, and when you do want one or the other, thief tends to do more for you. Yeah, they're both terrible.
I actually think Pirate Ship is worse 2-player than thief, though both are dreadful.

Still, my biggest issues here are talisman (too low), spy (well, too low even though it's pretty useless - a lot of the terminals it is below are similarly useless and more painful), and of course, Noble Brigand.

So, the thing is, Brigand is like the 10th most important kingdom card fro Big Money. Now that doesn't sound like a lot, but you have to remember that most of them above it are curse-givers. If we throw those out, it beats up on everything except wharf, monument, and merchant ship and jack, which it's pretty even with. Of course, engines don't have TONS of use for it, but it's not TERRIBLE in engines - in a big big engine match-up, it's at least some form of virtual coin, and can potentially clog coppers. More likely though, you want it to disrupt a BM opponent, or occasionally to steal the important little bit of treasure that your competing engines are relying on - it won't hit so reliably, but on the other hand, you can play it a zillion times, so it's not THAT bad a deal. Bad for engines, no doubt, but good AGAINST BM, more than anything else. And SO good BM. Now, it's a worse card overall than most of the cards it is better than in BM, because very often you can adjust around it - if opponent goes NB, you switch over to playing more of an engine. On the other hand, this is a class of card which can have a significant impact on a game, even when nobody buys it. Just the THREAT of it makes people adjust their style, in a goodly number of cases. So that, and its pre-eminence in BM, make it a middling $4 for me.

Also, there are some cards missing from down here, but I guess we'll get that later....

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2012, 08:41:25 pm »
0

Thief scales to multiplayer, which puts it above Scout for me.  Thief in a 4 or 5 player game can be decent in the mid to late game, especially if the opponents have trashed a lot of their copper for you.  It's still a bad card, but not as bad as Scout.

Other comments:
Quote
* Coppersmith is underrated.

I agree with this; I wouldn't put it really high on my list, but I would personally put it higher than Talisman and Feast.  It's very situational like both of those cards but somehow I feel like it's a little easier to use and less dependent on the board...maybe I'm wrong, though.

Quote
* Oh, yeah, Treasure Map and Pirate Ship.  They suck.

Pirate Ship is a card that, like Thief, scales to multiplayer.  If you are in a 4 or 5 player game with Pirate Ship, you cannot be the only player not to buy them (unless there are viable non-treasure options for getting money that can beat the pirate ship).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 06:13:28 am by yudantaiteki »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2012, 09:31:39 am »
0

Walled Village is only an option if an Action engine is viable, and if there are absolutely no other villages.

Massive untruth.

What is true is that Walled Village has the weakest bonus of the $4 Villages by far.  But even that is not absolute: I will prefer Walled Village to Farming, Worker's, and Mining in Torturer games, where the top-decking is really useful for lining up an early double-Torturer hit.  Sometimes Walled Village's bonus is also useful in other decks as well, especially those with a few powerful terminals and no cantrips.

Torturer is admittedly the only consistent case where it's competitive with the other $4 Villages- but it's a big case!  And you also need to take into account the cheaper Villages too, because in many engine decks you will be buying them for $4.  If I have $4 and want Village, well Walled Village is strictly better (even if by only a tiny amount).  And it's pretty frequently preferable to Shanty Town and Native Village as well.  As for the more expensive Villages... well I'll never spend $5 on a Walled Village when Bazaar is around (barring cases like HoP/Fairgrounds).  But what if I only have $4, and need a Village?

Look, I'll agree that on average Walled Village is the worst Village.  But it's not always the worst Village, and even so Villages are so important to the game that it is madness to have even a bad Village that low.
The bolded part is probably the most practical use of this card.  If you are going to play BM+ 2-3X, especially if that X is going to be a non-drawer, then its pretty practical to own this card.  I mean you are essentially giving up a silver to purchase something to avoid (a good chunk of) terminal clashing. Just because it gives +actions, does not mean it should be used in a similar fashion.  I'm just not sure how often these cases are (where there are strong terminals, a reason to purchase this at $4 and cantrips not worth purchasing).

Double ambassador works the exact same method because it will prevent a lot of the terminal clashing. 

My intuition says that early double jack wants a T3/T4 walled village as well if you hit 4/4 (or 5/4).  In this case, I would say walled village is better than a lot of the other villages (not fishing, festival and hamlet?). 
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WrathOfGlod

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2012, 10:35:46 am »
0

Scout is not as harmful of a card to have in your deck as thief, under the vast majority of circumstances. But the circumstances you want thief in are way more plentiful than those you want scout in, and when you do want one or the other, thief tends to do more for you. Yeah, they're both terrible.
I actually think Pirate Ship is worse 2-player than thief, though both are dreadful.

That's not right at all, in 2p Pirate Ship fills a valuable void on engine boards which are missing the +virtual coin component but have draw,actions, and trashing. It works similarly  to Saboteur which has uses on engines which have everything except +buy.
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Qvist

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2012, 10:30:59 am »
+1

The Best $4 Cards - Part 2/3
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#29 ▲1 Ironworks (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 23.86 ▲2.06 / Median: 25 ▲2.5 / Mode: 21 ▲9 / Standard Deviation: 7.7 ▲0.9
Highest Rank(s): #7 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (3x), #38 (1x), #42 (1x)

Ironworks is the next card after a big 4.3 point gap. This means it's the worst card of the mediocre ones. The average being more than 5 points higher than the actual rank shows also that the next cards are very close together and their ranks are somewhat debatable. Ironworks has some really high outliers with 5 times in the Top 10.

Ironworks is the superior Workshop which was pretty low on the $3 list. Does it deserve a higher rating on the $4 list? The biggest bonus for getting a lot of wanted action cards like Caravan is: Ironworks is non-terminal. So you can get Ironworks with Ironworks and then quickly get Caravans or other $4 cards. Being an Intrigue card it also combos nice with dual-type cards, so getting Great Halls or Islands makes Ironworks a cantrip. And it also works better in Gardens or Silk Road games for getting an additional card and increasing the probability getting to $4. But it lacks the same problem as Workshop: How many $4 cards do you want? So many times Ironworks is skippable.
#28 ▼6 Spice Merchant (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 23.65 ▼2.51 / Median: 26 ▼6 / Mode: 13 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 9.2 ▼0.3
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #6 (1x), #9 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #37 (2x), #41 (2x)

Spice Merchant has only a 0.2 point lead over Ironworks and is the first Hinterlands card with a significant drop. It lost 6 ranks and 2.5 points and has still a high mode (7 times on #13). It's also the card with the second highest deviation, even higher than last time. Most of you either voted it somewhere in the Tens or somewhere in the Thirties.

Spice Merchant is a very flexible trasher and the comparism to Moneylender is obvious. It produces less money for the cost of an additional buy. It can really shine if you want a non-terminal trasher for example in combination with Minions (its option +2 cards, +1 action basically restores the hand size) and if there's no other +Buy and you really need one. It's therefore more flexible (not limited to Copper and two options to choose from) but a slower opener as it's harder to get to $5 early on. It may be still useful later on, but it can lead to very hard decisions if you really want to trash that Silver. Spice Merchant / Ambassador is the #19 best opening (and the third best Ambassador opening), because you can trash coppers you get from your oponnent and still play your Ambassador with a full hand (Spice Merchant / Masquerade is on #47).
#27 =0 Trader (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 22.77 ▲1.52 / Median: 23 ▲2.5 / Mode: 29 ▲4 / Standard Deviation: 7.8 ▲1.3
Highest Rank(s): #5 (2x), #6 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #34 (1x), #37 (1x), #42 (1x)

Trader stayed were it was. But it still went up 1.5 points and has a much higher consensus now.

Trader is - like all Reaction cards - very situational. It's Silver gaining defense is mostly stronger than Watchtower's trashing, so you have to think twice if you really want to play that Curse-giving attack or another card that deals out junk and give your opponent a free Silver, especially with Mountebank on the board for 2 Silvers. Trader is a good opener in non-Colony Big Money games too, so you can trash Estates for 2 Silvers. It's also good with Gardens, eventually trashing a Silver to 3 Silvers. But in many other boards Trader is simply a no-go.
#26 ▼2 Quarry (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 22.57 ▲0.85 / Median: 24 =0 / Mode: 24 =0 / Standard Deviation: 7.7 ▼0.2
Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #6 (1x), #8 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (1x), #37 (1x), #39 (1x)

Quarry has only a 0.2 point lead over Trader and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking, so newer players overrate it a bit. The stats are similar than last time, but still it lost 2 ranks.

Quarry is very situational too. For action cards, this is basically a Gold you can pick up in the opening turns. So if you want many action cards and have additional buys too, Quarry is your card to go for, for example with Goons. But in the later game when you picking up victory cards, you wish this weren't only a Copper. Quarry / Ambassador is the #80 best opening, both good cards for building an engine.
#25 ▼5 Island (Seaside) Weighted Average: 22.47 ▼2.23 / Median: 23 ▼2 / Mode: 23 ▼2 / Standard Deviation: 7.2 ▲1.3
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #8 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #33 (2x), #35 (1x)

Island has a really high outlier on the second place, but still lost 5 ranks and over 2 points. It has only a 0.1 point lead over Quarry and 0.3 points over Trader, it was very close here. Despite this outlier there is higher consensus on this card. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Island does pseudo-trashing with the addition of giving additional points. So you can use it for pseudo-trashing the Estates without losing the points and later in the game you can pick it up and take your Provinces out of your deck. It can really be great with Silk Road on the board. It is rarely a game-changer, but can be a nice addition to some decks to keep them clean. And even in cursing games with no trashers, you can take Curses out of your deck for a total net of +1 point. The problem is that you don't build up your economy if you open with it and if there important cards for $5 or $6 you often have to skip Island.
#24 ▲1 Baron (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 21.81 ▲1.80 / Median: 22 ▲1.5 / Mode: 28 ▲2 / Standard Deviation: 7.9 ▼0.2
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #8 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (1x), #37 (1x), #38 (1x)

Baron has a really high outlier on the second place too and hase even the same best 3 ranks as Island. But it went up 1 rannks and nearly 2 points. It also would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Baron is very interesting as it gives you a very high probability getting Gold early and even get a very early King's Court or Forge, but is very swingy too. If you cannot draw your Baron with an Estate, this is a dead card in the beginning, because you mostly don't want another Estate (and getting Estate for feeding your Baron is mostly no good idea). But as the game goes on, the probability decreases drawing an Estate with Baron. It has also a nice synergy with Crossroads. In the middle game Baron is most of the time no good card, but later in the game it can you net another point and gives you a +Buy too. If you're going to trash your Estates, don't buy a Baron and if you have a deck that can guarantee an Estate in every hand, like multiple Hunting Parties, Baron can very powerful. So, Baron is very situational and a rank in the middle of the $4 cards seems deserved.
#23 ▲3 Cutpurse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 21.73 ▲2.06 / Median: 23 ▲2.5 / Mode: 28 ▲8 / Standard Deviation: 7.3 ▲2.9
Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #9 (1x), #11 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #38 (2x), #41 (1x)

Cutpurse is only 0.08 points higher than Baron, very close. If we would take the unweighted average into account, Cutpurse would be only on #26, similar to the last time unexperienced players definitely underrate it. And it has a way lower deviation this time.

Cutpurse is a pretty good opener. It's a terminal Silver that can even hit harder than Militia. In the beginning where every coin is important to get to $5, Cutpurse can be really annoying. And it is even worse in games with more than 2 players where you can lose multiple Coppers in one turn. Yes, later it gets worse and worse and is nothing but a terminal Silver where you can see your opponents hand.
#22 ▼1 Farming Village (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 20.94 ▼0.13 / Median: 21 ▼1 / Mode: 20 =0 / Standard Deviation: 6.3 ▲0.7
Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #4 (1x), #8 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #29 (2x), #34 (2x)

Its stats are similar to last time and the deviation was even lower - very low for a middle ranked card. Still it has two big outliers, one voted it even first and only 2 people voted it below #30. It would be on #21 taking the unweighted average into account.

Farming Village is the third best (last time: second best) of the 4 $4 villages. The additional ability of this village is always useful and a good counter in cursing games and against top-decking attacks like Rabble. And later in the game where you are heavily greening its additional ability is very useful too. You may even pick it up if you don't necessarily need the actions and just want to have its filter ability. But in games without cursers or even good trashing, it's in the beginning often only an expensive "normal" village. Farming Village / Ambassador is the #91 best opening.
#21 ▼3 Throne Room (Base) Weighted Average: 20.45 ▼1.73 / Median: 22 ▼3 / Mode: 27 =0 / Standard Deviation: 8.1 ▲1.0
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #32 (1x), #35 (1x), #36 (1x)

Throne Room experienced a drop of nearly 2 points and 3 ranks. The deviation decreased, but it has still some very high ranks, the highest being second. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted average.

I was curious how Throne Room was going to perform as Throne Room for itself basically does nothing and is highly dependant on the other cards on the board. It can be so strong, especially with strong attacks and with card drawers too. But nothing is more depressing than drawing Throne Room with no other action card. So you need a high action density and hope to draw it with that card you really want to double. You can also use it as a pseudo-village if there's no-one available and really need one, if you double a cantrip. Throne Room can really be a game-changer, especially if you have the luck and draw it with the right cards.
#20 ▼11 Moneylender (Base) Weighted Average: 20.39 ▼7.50 / Median: 18 ▼5.50 / Mode: 16 ▼2 / Standard Deviation: 8.8 ▼2.0
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #6 (1x), #7 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #35 (1x), #36 (1x), #37 (1x)

What a huge drop of 11 ranks and 7.5 points! Moneylender got on #20 with only 0.06 points better than Throne Room, it was a very close call. As many rated it way lower, but the other half of you still ranking it high, the deviation went up 2 points, the third highest deviation in this list. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking, newer players think it's a little bit stronger.

Moneylender is another card that falls into the category "Great opener, bad afterwards". It's like a Silver but with the trash ability at the same time. Like said earlier, the comparism to Spice Merchant is obvious. Moneylender is a much better opener with the deficit of not being so flexible later in the game. You mostly only want one of it (maybe only on Mountebank boards you would maybe buy a second), but this one can really fasten the game. It's less important as it used to be, but still great for building an engine with high cost cards. Moneylender / Ambassador is the #139 ▼37 best opening.
#19 =0 Mining Village (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 20.32 ▼0.21 / Median: 20 =0 / Mode: 20 ▲6 / Standard Deviation: 6.9 ▲0.1
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #9 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #31 (3x), #32 (1x), #34 (1x)

Only 0.07 point-lead over Moneylender and 0.13 points over Throne Room, veeeery close. The stats are nearly the same as last time and it has a outlier on #5. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.

Mining Village is a normal Village with a one-shot Silver possibility and the second best village for $4 (last time: best). If you need a Village you can use that one-shot self-trashing option later in the game when you give up your engine and fully commit on going green or have bad luck late in the game and only hit $6 or $7. And even if you doesn't have a engine and are going basically big money, you can buy this in the mid-game when you miss $6 for a Gold and don't want another Silver in your deck, because this still gives you the additional card and the $2 of a Silver. And if you have enough money and no additional buy you can save the one-shot Silver for later. Mining Village / Ambassador is the #76 best opening.
#18 ▼4 Horse Traders (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 19.77 ▼4.20 / Median: 19 ▼4 / Mode: 23 ▼7 / Standard Deviation: 7.0 ▲1.7
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #4 (1x), #7 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #31 (2x), #32 (1x)

Although it "only" went down 4 ranks, it still lost value with a drop of over 4 points. The agreement in this is higher although some still voted it on #2 or #4.

Horse Traders is (beside of Watchtower) the only Reaction card that is useful on many boards. Yes, it is still situational, but the situations occur very often. It's geat against discarding attacks, restoring the hand size - especially against Minion for a hand of 6 cards. Especially with weak attacks this card is good, because the benefit from Horse Traders is bigger for the opponent than the benefit for yourself playing a weak attack. But, the action part is very useful too. It's useful in decks full of green cards and curses, so it's a good supporting card for Gardens or Silk Road rushes, or buying Dukes. And it's a good addition to Hunting Party, a good starter for getting $5 early or early Grand Markets and so on... many possibilities. Still, as it is a Reaction card, it is very situational why you maybe voted it lower than last time.
#17 =0 Conspirator (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 18.30 ▲0.04 / Median: 19 ▼0.5 / Mode: 23 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 7.1 ▲0.5
Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #6 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #32 (2x), #34 (2x)

Conspirator's stats nearly didn't changed. There's higher consensus on this card, but not much else to say here.

Conspirator is so strong, but heavily depends on supporting cards that have to be non-terminal. Cheap action cards like Wishing Well, Pearl Diver or Hamlet that you can pick up in masses, especially with additional buys are great with Conspirator. You want thin decks with high action density. With that big support, this is a Grand Market just without the additional buy. In all other cases, you have to skip over Conspirator, because it's just a terminal Silver then.

To the third part
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 06:52:14 am by Qvist »
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #75 on: July 20, 2012, 10:54:40 am »
0

Wow.
The first part was good overall, but a lot of disagreement about this second part.
Spice merchant : This one is crazily underrated. I still think it is a lot better than moneylender (well, moneylender is better early but gets progressively worse during the game, unlike spice merchant).
Island : It's me who have ranked Island so high (2nd). And I do not change my opinion. Island is SO good.

Otherwise, Smithy is not in the list yet. I can't believe that.   :o
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 10:55:59 am by brokoli »
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2012, 11:09:40 am »
0

@Spice Merchant: My problem with SM is, Copper trashing without Estate trashing is usually problematic. So given another "unconditioned" trasher (or Island), SM is good. Trashing + Lab cycles fastly, trashing into Woodcutter gives you options if you can get an important $5 or Gold.  But without them, it get's a lot more problematic. There are other situations where I might consider SM, but still, the Coppers are your economy at the beginning, and when you remove them, without removing the real problem, you need to work to replace this economy. And Gold is unlikely with SM, so we are at Silvers, which takes some more buys to recover.

@Island: I just don't see why it should be anywhere only near #2 in this list.  At the start you give up a lot of tempo until you (maybe) get a benefit from it. If you have a chain, and you can Province-Island, that's really nice. If there's nothing at $5, but much at $4 and below, you maybe can even afford the loss of the tempo for VPs and a better deck. But usually that needs some of the cards I would rank above Island in this list...

Edit: Overall, also not much disagreement from me. From this card I only have 2 in the top16, Baron on #9, Horse Trader on #14.  Cutpurse is on #17, Quarry on #19, Conspirator on #27.  So some disorder in this middle field maybe, but that's all difficult to rank. Situationally very powerfull vs. usually usefull.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 11:17:20 am by DStu »
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #77 on: July 20, 2012, 12:42:00 pm »
+1

Wow.  Whole lotta disagreement going on.  To a certain extent this is unavoidable; the mid-level $4s and $5s are very subjective, and I'd expect the split between engine players and money players to be particularly pronounced here.  But, man, there are a lot of cards I didn't expect to see yet, and a lot of cards that really should have been in this group.

I had five cards here ranked at #16 or higher: Spice Merchant (16), Cutpurse (15), Moneylender (14), Island (13), Conspirator (11).
The five cards we have yet to see which I ranked lower: Worker's Village (17), Gardens (19), Silk Road (20), Envoy (21), Smithy (23). 

Worker's Village, Gardens, and Silk Road I have no complaints about.  I'm pretty sure WV will be at the bottom of the top group, almost exactly where I had it.  Gardens and Silk Road I fully understand why people rank higher; with everyone learning from WW's videos and grasping the power of alt-VP, I knew that my ranking was going to be lower than average and I'm okay with that.  Just want to emphasize that Gardens/SR really does need support- sometimes it changes the game, but sometimes it doesn't, believe it or not.

Envoy and Smithy, OTOH, absolutely deserve the lower ranks I gave them.  Envoy-BM and Smithy-BM are supposed to be great for Big Money, but actually in the grand scheme of things they're pretty mediocre BM strategies, and they're also pretty bad sources of +Card for engines, too: usually you want non-terminal draw, or draw that attacks, or other benefits that these cards just don't give.  You can use these cards, but whether you go engine or BM there is likely a better option out there.  I buy both of them less than 40 percent of the time, and that's not too little at all.

As for the cards I like more than most: Spice Merchant/Moneylender is the old engine vs. Big Money divide again.  A list that had these two cards in this group, and Gardens/SR in the higher group, is one I'd have precious little complaint about.  But I do think it's quite silly that Spice Merchant is so far lower than Moneylender.  It's a worse card on average, but just barely. 

Cutpurse is to Militia as Spice Merchant is to Moneylender.  Very similar, and worse but only barely.  The gap should be lower.  Eh, maybe I overrated it.  Ranking Island at #2 is madness, but I definitely remember that Island/Silver was a way better opening than many people gave credit for, and any source of VP that gets out of the way is great in my book.  Conspirator, okay sometimes there isn't support, but when that support is around, and I think it usually is, Conspirator is just too good.  Yes, I would like the functional equivalent of Grand Market for $4 (since there's only so much +Buy you can use)!

...

Other little things: I had Farming and Mining Village more or less swapped.  I have become less and less impressed with Mining Village's bonus as time goes on: popping it early is not something I like to do- if I need the economy I'd rather just go with Silver, if I need the engine I'm not going to give up +Action sources easily.  And popping it at the end is more often than not overkill.  I find Farming Village's defensive/fishing capabilities more useful more often, especially with copper trashing or deck-inspection attacks.

Horse Traders and Throne Room are overrated here, I'll try to explain why in another post.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 12:46:31 pm by chwhite »
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gman314

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2012, 01:08:08 pm »
0

I'm looking forward to seeing how many ranks Worker's Village went up in order to pass Farming Village and Mining Village.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2012, 01:09:20 pm »
0

Chwhite, I agree with your post, especially about Envoy and Smithy which are way overrated.
I agree... except this part :
Cutpurse is to Militia as Spice Merchant is to Moneylender.  Very similar, and worse but only barely.  The gap should be lower.  Eh, maybe I overrated it.  Ranking Island at #2 is madness, but I definitely remember that Island/Silver was a way better opening than many people gave credit for, and any source of VP that gets out of the way is great in my book.

I explained why I think Spice merchant is way better than moneylender so the cutpurse-militia/spice merchant-smithy comparison is inaccurate in my opinion. I seriously don't understand why people rank moneylender higher than spice merchant. And the stats on councilroom agree (http://councilroom.com/win_rate_diff_accum.html?cards=spice%20merchant%2C%20moneylender)

Well, I ranked Island so high for the same reason I ranked gardens and silk road higher than you : I love victory cards. It's simple, if duchy was on the $5 list I would rank it 1st. And same reasoning for all other victory cards. Island is a very nice opening buy, and 2VP are important at the end of the game. Finally Island is my 7th best effect with (I buy it 95% of the time !). So I persist : this card is underrated.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #80 on: July 20, 2012, 01:10:37 pm »
0

I'm looking forward to seeing how many ranks Worker's Village went up in order to pass Farming Village and Mining Village.

Yeah, way back when I ranked the Villages and put Worker's below Farming and Mining, and somehow that mistake made it onto the front page of f.ds.  This was silly, and probably the source of Worker's previous underrating.  I definitely agree with the general consensus now that Worker's Village is the best $4 Village, and you should disregard anything I ever previously said to the contrary. 

Still more of a Farming Village fan than most, though.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #81 on: July 20, 2012, 01:10:40 pm »
0

Yeah, this list is way more off than the other ones. Trader, Island, and Throne Room should be at the back of this group of cards. Not Ironworks, and certainly not Spice Merchant!

What else, I ranked Quarry quite a lot better (so dominating when it's good), Baron a lot better, Farming Village a little worse, and Moneylender and Spice Merchant a bajillion places better.

Spice Merchant is the most mis-ranked card so far in the new rankings. I put it at #13. A Copper trasher with decent cycling, flexible source of money, and even +buy in an emergency? Yes, please.
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Jfrisch

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2012, 01:13:37 pm »
0

vp cards, in general, are hard to rate because of there value as late game strong duchy/cheap duchy/nerfed duchy equivalent. This is obviously super important late game, but in a sort of different way from other cards.
I also agree with spice-merchant>moneylender, lab is (slightly) better than term gold for an engine, spicemerchant obviously can get you into more trouble but it's over-all increase in flexibility (woodcutter/can use other coins) makes up for it's slightly weaker opening behavior.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2012, 01:17:16 pm »
0

Chwhite, I agree with your post, especially about Envoy and Smithy which are way overrated.
I agree... except this part :
Cutpurse is to Militia as Spice Merchant is to Moneylender.  Very similar, and worse but only barely.  The gap should be lower.  Eh, maybe I overrated it.  Ranking Island at #2 is madness, but I definitely remember that Island/Silver was a way better opening than many people gave credit for, and any source of VP that gets out of the way is great in my book.

I explained why I think Spice merchant is way better than moneylender so the cutpurse-militia/spice merchant-smithy comparison is inaccurate in my opinion. I seriously don't understand why people rank moneylender higher than spice merchant. And the stats on councilroom agree (http://councilroom.com/win_rate_diff_accum.html?cards=spice%20merchant%2C%20moneylender)

Well, I ranked Island so high for the same reason I ranked gardens and silk road higher than you : I love victory cards. It's simple, if duchy was on the $5 list I would rank it 1st. And same reasoning for all other victory cards. Island is a very nice opening buy, and 2VP are important at the end of the game. Finally Island is my 7th best effect with (I buy it 95% of the time !). So I persist : this card is underrated.

Oh, if Duchy was on the $5 list I'd rank it dead last. It's the worst card in the game. :P

(-6.48 Effect With, +8.55 Effect Without.  The numbers just keep getting larger and larger.)

I agree with you that Island is underrated!  But the top ten or so $4 cards are just so clear in my mind.

Yeah, this list is way more off than the other ones. Trader, Island, and Throne Room should be at the back of this group of cards. Not Ironworks, and certainly not Spice Merchant!

What else, I ranked Quarry quite a lot better (so dominating when it's good), Baron a lot better, Farming Village a little worse, and Moneylender and Spice Merchant a bajillion places better.

Spice Merchant is the most mis-ranked card so far in the new rankings. I put it at #13. A Copper trasher with decent cycling, flexible source of money, and even +buy in an emergency? Yes, please.

Well... at least we agree on Spice Merchant and Trader.

I actually had Baron a spot or two lower.   The ~30 percent chance of drawing Baron with no Estates on Turns 3/4 is just such a kiss of death that I can't rank it highly.  And then there are often just better options.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 01:22:23 pm by chwhite »
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2012, 01:20:52 pm »
0

vp cards, in general, are hard to rate because of there value as late game strong duchy/cheap duchy/nerfed duchy equivalent. This is obviously super important late game, but in a sort of different way from other cards.
I also agree with spice-merchant>moneylender, lab is (slightly) better than term gold for an engine, spicemerchant obviously can get you into more trouble but it's over-all increase in flexibility (woodcutter/can use other coins) makes up for it's slightly weaker opening behavior.

Lab is better than Gold for an engine, but not on Turns 3/4 when you don't have that much money yet.  Spice Merchant is boss in the Peddler/Conspirator/Market family of decks, but in general Moneylender actually helps you build up your buying power faster.

And, yeah, I'm well aware that a lot of the times Gardens/SR gets bought, it's as a substitute Duchy in "normal" decks.  That's kind of exactly why I ranked it lower than most. :)
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2012, 01:26:41 pm »
0

Nonsense! If we could rank Duchy I would call it the est $4. You always have to buy a Duchy.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2012, 01:26:55 pm »
0

Nonsense! If we could rank Duchy I would call it the est $4. You always have to buy a Duchy.

And I know thems fighting words.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2012, 01:27:09 pm »
+1

clearly moneylender is much better on the first reshuffle, and spice-merchant is much better for basically the rest of the game. I value the rest of the game over the first reshuffle.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2012, 01:27:53 pm »
0

clearly moneylender is much better on the first reshuffle, and spice-merchant is much better for basically the rest of the game. I value the rest of the game over the first reshuffle.

I think they are close, but Spice Merchant is a little better.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2012, 01:33:59 pm »
+1

Nonsense! If we could rank Duchy I would call it the est $4. You always have to buy a Duchy.

And I know thems fighting words.

There's only one possible response to that.

Vote: Robz888

Seriously, much of the time Duchy is only a card you buy if you're losing.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #90 on: July 20, 2012, 01:35:33 pm »
+3

Nonsense! If we could rank Duchy I would call it the est $4. You always have to buy a Duchy.

And I know thems fighting words.

There's only one possible response to that.

Vote: Robz888

Seriously, much of the time Duchy is only a card you buy if you're losing.

And it's never a card you buy for a $4... FoS: Myself
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #91 on: July 20, 2012, 01:39:14 pm »
0

I actually had Baron a spot or two lower.   The ~30 percent chance of drawing Baron with no Estates on Turns 3/4 is just such a kiss of death that I can't rank it highly.  And then there are often just better options.

The thing is, I almost NEVER open with baron (same for salvager), because of the chance of drawing baron with no estates. However, this card is so strong in drawing engines (Stables, Hunting party, Lab, nobles, village+cards, ...)
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2012, 01:44:09 pm »
0

I actually had Baron a spot or two lower.   The ~30 percent chance of drawing Baron with no Estates on Turns 3/4 is just such a kiss of death that I can't rank it highly.  And then there are often just better options.

The thing is, I almost NEVER open with baron (same for salvager), because of the chance of drawing baron with no estates. However, this card is so strong in drawing engines (Stables, Hunting party, Lab, nobles, village+cards, ...)

Baron has slowly become a card that I usually veto if I can, because much of the time you feel compelled to open with it, and if it works out for your opponent but not you, that's so strong. And like you say, it's very good in drawing engines.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2012, 01:53:59 pm »
0

You always have to buy a Duchy.

"You want to buy a Duchy?"
"A what?"
"A Duchy."
"Does it quatchy?"
"...What in the heck are you talking about?"
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2012, 02:14:11 pm »
0

Cards I had much higher:

Island (11 vs 25) - Island is a really, really strong opening for money decks. Like really strong. You give up a little tempo, but you get points and a trimmer deck.

Spice Merchant (15 vs 28) - People have talked about this, but I'm in the company that feels it's better than Moneylender. The thing is, both are only good when you want to make an engine. Engines need +buy, and Spice Merchant gives that.

Cutpurse (16 vs 23) - It's not really almost as good as Miltia. It's kind of a lot worse, because it gets worse as the game goes on, but it's still a really strong opening.

Trader (21 vs 27) - I don't know. Maybe I just like reactions... I might have overrated this one, but I feel like it's a really good defense against the strongest attacks, and it stuffs your deck with money, which is also useful in curse games, where you probably can't build an engine.

Cards I had much lower:
Conspirator (30 vs 17) - Conspirator dropped a lot in my personal rankings. Maybe it's a bit much, but still, 17 seems really high. Conspirator can be a power card, and provide most of the economy for an engine, but it just needs so many other parts around. You need drawing AND trashing AND buy/gain AND usually villages, so while it may feel like the most powerful card in the engines it's used in, it's often really just an addition to make an otherwise workable engine stronger. Most of the time, even when you buy it, it's not a card that really dramatically changed the strategic landscape of the board the way a card that near the top third should.

Throne Room (29 vs 21) - Throne Room is just really hard to rate, as Qvist mentioned, so I can't really argue much here.

Baron (32 vs 24) - I'm actually surprised I ranked this so low, but then if you look at the 8 cards immediately below it on this list -- Island, Quarry, Trader, Spice Merchant, Ironworks, Remodel, Noble Brigand, and Walled Village -- I like them all more than Baron...
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2012, 02:17:12 pm »
0

if duchy was on the $5 list I would rank it 1st.
The way I see it, you usually like to swindle people's $5 cards into Duchies, so they can't really be that good...
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #96 on: July 20, 2012, 02:24:28 pm »
0

if duchy was on the $5 list I would rank it 1st.
The way I see it, you usually like to swindle people's $5 cards into Duchies, so they can't really be that good...

Well, not toward the end of the game. Then you swindle their Duchies into $5 Actions.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #97 on: July 20, 2012, 02:38:09 pm »
0

I think Trader is underrated by a couple of spots in this list. The reaction is just so strong in cursing games, and "flood your games with silver" is a very strong Big Money strategy. After you traded your estates into couples of silvers, the goal isn't to trade silvers for more silvers, the goal is to trade one or two $4/$5 cards and be resilient to greening.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #98 on: July 21, 2012, 11:17:19 am »
0

Cards I had significantly higher :
- Spice Merchant : #13 vs #28 I'm in the camp that finds it slightly above Moneylender, although I guess it's more about personal taste than anything else at that point.
- Trader : #17 vs #27, which I now think is too high, but I still like the card more than something like Baron.
- Island : #15 vs #25 : what can I say... it's good. Island/Silver is an opening I quite like, and Island is just a sweet card. chwite covered that much better.
- Moneylender : #14 vs #20 : I love Moneylender, it's a very strong opening buy in engine-y decks. Again, it has already been covered.

Cards I had significantly lower :
- Quarry : #35 vs #26 : Quarry really isn't that good. I guess it all comes down to the whole consistency vs power thing, since when it's good, it's really good, but it just doesn't happen that often.
- Cutpurse : #28 vs 23 : Cutpurse is definitely no Militia. Sure, it's a fine opening buy, but it doesn't really synergize with much of anything, and weakens much quicker than Militia does.
- Conspirator : #26 vs #17 : See Quarry, basically. It's good much more often than Quarry, but that's still not that often.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #99 on: July 21, 2012, 11:53:33 am »
0

I think conspirator is fine where he is. Unlike others, I think it's easy to pull off a conspirator chain : you need trashers, but copper trashers are enough. And you don't specially need villages...
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #100 on: July 21, 2012, 02:00:24 pm »
0

I ranked baron much higher. Not the #3, I don't think (though maybe) one of the 8s, but much higher nonetheless.

Its below freaking Moneylender after all. Moneylender is +2$, trash a copper. Baron is +4$. Baron can miss, and it's unfortunate when it does, but its still quite a high probably of hitting for the next for shuffles. Plus baron gives T3/T4 golds, and T3/T4 golds are king.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #101 on: July 21, 2012, 04:47:59 pm »
0

I actually had Baron a spot or two lower.   The ~30 percent chance of drawing Baron with no Estates on Turns 3/4 is just such a kiss of death that I can't rank it highly.  And then there are often just better options.

The thing is, I almost NEVER open with baron (same for salvager), because of the chance of drawing baron with no estates. However, this card is so strong in drawing engines (Stables, Hunting party, Lab, nobles, village+cards, ...)

Baron has slowly become a card that I usually veto if I can, because much of the time you feel compelled to open with it, and if it works out for your opponent but not you, that's so strong. And like you say, it's very good in drawing engines.

I don't feel compelled to open Baron most of the time.  If I get 5/2 chances are there's a 5 I'd rather have; Baron is more-or-less obsoleted by decent trashing or decent attacks (you're not getting Gold if your Baron-Estate-Copper-Copper-Copper hand gets hit with Militia); oftentimes you have to open Potion instead... there are a whole host of reasons to not open Baron beyond just a fear of whiffing.

And connecting after Turns 3/4 gets harder and harder unless you're setting up an engine.  Baron can admittedly be nice in some engines- but I do think it gets obsoleted pretty hard by most (non-Copper) trashing and attacks, and those things are not exactly rare.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #102 on: July 21, 2012, 05:05:56 pm »
0

trader is way underrated on the list

farming village a little underrated, i think people don't notice how often the ability helps them because of the isotropic interface, and sifting is not small.

i didn't read what anyone else said, hope i'm not over-repeating
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #103 on: July 21, 2012, 05:08:51 pm »
0

moneylender > spice merchant for sure. tends to do better in more boring decks, though

baron is one of my least favorite cards cause baron copper copper copper copper, and that makes it hard to rank.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #104 on: July 21, 2012, 05:11:24 pm »
0

farming village a little underrated, i think people don't notice how often the ability helps them because of the isotropic interface, and sifting is not small.
It's definitely good against certain attacks, and a little late game when you have victory cards in your deck, but if you can trash your estates, then for most of the game it's not doing anything. I think Mining, Farming, and Walled are all pretty close and belong right around where farming is in the low-mid 20s.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #105 on: July 21, 2012, 05:15:10 pm »
0

Hmm, I think mining is for sure a cut above the rest (what O said about turn 3 golds and baron, plus in the late game with a good engine). I always underestimate worker's village, though. I think mining > farming > worker's > walled, but would believe a community consensus swapping the inside two.

Walled village has its places, of course, e.g. walled village + witch + witch + money is probably better than any of the other villages (actually, maybe not farming). Although maybe witch + witch + money is better than any of them.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #106 on: July 21, 2012, 07:49:50 pm »
+2

Count me among those who think Worker's is the best $4 Village.  I was surprised at chwhite's exhaustive and largely flawless Village article ranking it around the middle and intrigued that he's since re-evaluated.  Usually when chwhite weighs in, it's me that comes around.

Here's the thing:  if you have Villages at all, you're building an engine, and if you're building an engine, you want +Buy.  Worker's Village gives you +Buy in the most seamless possible way.  You get it for free when you buy a card you would have bought anyway to make that engine work.  How awesome is that?  It's better than a one-shot dose of not-really-that-much cash when you trash an engine component you probably need, and it's better than a Village that skips green cards in theory but somehow never finds them to skip when you actually use them.  I don't know why this isn't the prevailing opinion.  Well, maybe it is now, actually, since Worker's has obviously been ranked first this time, but there is clearly still a lot of dissent.

+Buy is the most situational of bonuses, because so often it goes unused.  It's on a lot of cards where it's not that important, because the types of decks you use it in, you don't necessarily need it.  But if you're using a Village at all, you probably do want it, and if you had to get it (almost) any other way, you'd have to burn an extra turn to pick up that engine component separately.

But wait!  There's more!  Say you're running a deck that needs +Buy but isn't a Village-based engine.  Why, then Worker's Village may still be the ideal source of +Buy due to way that, as a cantrip, it slips so seamlessly into most decks.  Only a couple other cards can do that, and they're harder and a lot harder to obtain, respectively:  Market at $5 and Grand Market at $6 with a special restriction.

When you're liable to pick up a Village without even needing the Village effect itself, well, that says something.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #107 on: July 21, 2012, 08:07:42 pm »
0

I absolutely agree that Worker's Village is the best of the $4 villages, and I am not even an engine guy. I used to have this great love for Farmer's but now I'd say it's weaker than Mining, and certainly weaker than Worker's. (Walled is of course distantly behind all 3.)

The big point in its favor is that even when you don't need sources of +action, WV is a seamless +buy that doesn't mess up your deck.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #108 on: July 21, 2012, 08:12:03 pm »
0

I'm an unbeliever in the engine/non-engine dichotomy in terms of looking at boards - I think it is useful for a while, but it ultimately causes when-your-only-tool-is-a-hammer type problems.

I agree that in the games where you pare your deck down to zero and play 14 conspirators in a row, you want a worker's village. But there are a lot of boards where you maybe don't have an "engine" in that strict of a sense, and you need a village; on those, farming is a little better and mining is miles ahead. I also disagree that a trashed mining village is a small bonus - it's an activated conspirator! Often the extra actions are the "meh" part of that card, not the two dollars.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #109 on: July 21, 2012, 08:15:48 pm »
0

Was really surprised with Spice Merchant being so low. It is almost always better than Moneylender.

Cutpurse going up was a pleasant surprise. That card is underrated. People keep thinking about how horrible it is in the later game, when its true power is in the opening.

Sort of surprised Island went down so many ranks, it isn't a bad opener,its a  a good buy near the end of the game, and a good way to get rid of some green.

I'm on the "WV is the best $4 Village" side. I used to like Farming Village, but after all the times using it and realizing its weakness, I like WV more.

So many cards going down ranks...
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #110 on: July 21, 2012, 08:16:55 pm »
0

maybe i'd put it this way. ranking them as "villages qua villages" I would say worker's > mining > farming > walled. as "villages qua cards" though, it's the order I said before; possibly worker's is still better than farming. the question is in what percentage of a game that you want a village are you building a super-compact engine that needs streamless +buy every turn - I think it's lower than y'all are putting it at.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #111 on: July 21, 2012, 09:42:40 pm »
0

maybe i'd put it this way. ranking them as "villages qua villages" I would say worker's > mining > farming > walled. as "villages qua cards" though, it's the order I said before; possibly worker's is still better than farming. the question is in what percentage of a game that you want a village are you building a super-compact engine that needs streamless +buy every turn - I think it's lower than y'all are putting it at.

I would say that as "villages qua villages", Farming is definitely above Mining.  As long as it's still in your deck and is helping you get +Action, Mining is just a vanilla Village.  I would have an easier time believing that Mining beats Farming as a card but not as a Village, though I still think Farming is a better card overall, because I am more and more convinced as time goes on that buying a Mining Village to trash it early is just a bad idea 95 percent of the time.

When you're liable to pick up a Village without even needing the Village effect itself, well, that says something.

Yeah, I don't know why I was bad-mouthing Worker's Village as a source of +Buy, it's a pretty great source if you need either the +Action or you're running a cantrip engine. 

Actually, though, most Villages have situations where you're willing to buy it without needing the +2 Actions: vanilla Village and Walled are the only true exceptions (and even then I can imagine Vineyard decks picking them up).  But WV is more likely than most.  The three villages which give +Coin- Festival, Fishing, and Bazaar- are all reasonable possibilities (say in a Minion or Scrying Pool deck), as are the +Buy Villages (Festival, Worker's, and Hamlet).  And then there's getting a single Shanty Town in a terminal-less deck for the +Card.  Mining, Farming, and Native are pretty rare, admittedly, though again this is because I don't really believe in buying Mining Village to use as a one-shot.

I think Festival is actually the Village I am most likely to pick up without using the second Action, in situations where I don't really have terminals but want multiple +Buys and/or virtual +Coin: Minion, Scrying Pool, hybrid Gardens, stuff like that.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 09:43:44 pm by chwhite »
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #112 on: July 21, 2012, 09:49:35 pm »
0

yeah, you're right of course that farming > mining as vqv
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rinkworks

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #113 on: July 22, 2012, 09:39:48 am »
0

When you're liable to pick up a Village without even needing the Village effect itself, well, that says something.

Yeah, I don't know why I was bad-mouthing Worker's Village as a source of +Buy, it's a pretty great source if you need either the +Action or you're running a cantrip engine. 

Actually, though, most Villages have situations where you're willing to buy it without needing the +2 Actions: vanilla Village and Walled are the only true exceptions (and even then I can imagine Vineyard decks picking them up).  But WV is more likely than most.  The three villages which give +Coin- Festival, Fishing, and Bazaar- are all reasonable possibilities (say in a Minion or Scrying Pool deck), as are the +Buy Villages (Festival, Worker's, and Hamlet).  And then there's getting a single Shanty Town in a terminal-less deck for the +Card.  Mining, Farming, and Native are pretty rare, admittedly, though again this is because I don't really believe in buying Mining Village to use as a one-shot.

I wasn't clear, but in that case I was only really talking about cards with "Village" in the actual name, which (with exceptions both ways) tend to be the ones without the common non-Village uses.  But you make a good point, that Worker's isn't the only one.  Even the rare ones have occasional uses, like Farming Village vs. Rabble.  But I tend to think Worker's Village is the only non-coin one that's fairly common.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #114 on: July 22, 2012, 11:21:51 am »
0

When you're liable to pick up a Village without even needing the Village effect itself, well, that says something.

Yeah, I don't know why I was bad-mouthing Worker's Village as a source of +Buy, it's a pretty great source if you need either the +Action or you're running a cantrip engine. 

Actually, though, most Villages have situations where you're willing to buy it without needing the +2 Actions: vanilla Village and Walled are the only true exceptions (and even then I can imagine Vineyard decks picking them up).  But WV is more likely than most.  The three villages which give +Coin- Festival, Fishing, and Bazaar- are all reasonable possibilities (say in a Minion or Scrying Pool deck), as are the +Buy Villages (Festival, Worker's, and Hamlet).  And then there's getting a single Shanty Town in a terminal-less deck for the +Card.  Mining, Farming, and Native are pretty rare, admittedly, though again this is because I don't really believe in buying Mining Village to use as a one-shot.

I wasn't clear, but in that case I was only really talking about cards with "Village" in the actual name, which (with exceptions both ways) tend to be the ones without the common non-Village uses.  But you make a good point, that Worker's isn't the only one.  Even the rare ones have occasional uses, like Farming Village vs. Rabble.  But I tend to think Worker's Village is the only non-coin one that's fairly common.

Ah, yeah, that's fair.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #115 on: July 22, 2012, 03:13:49 pm »
+1


But wait!  There's more!  Say you're running a deck that needs +Buy but isn't a Village-based engine.  Why, then Worker's Village may still be the ideal source of +Buy due to way that, as a cantrip, it slips so seamlessly into most decks.  Only a couple other cards can do that, and they're harder and a lot harder to obtain, respectively:  Market at $5 and Grand Market at $6 with a special restriction.

(hamlet)
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #116 on: July 22, 2012, 03:17:58 pm »
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Pawn!
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #117 on: July 22, 2012, 03:53:55 pm »
0

But wait!  There's more!  Say you're running a deck that needs +Buy but isn't a Village-based engine.  Why, then Worker's Village may still be the ideal source of +Buy due to way that, as a cantrip, it slips so seamlessly into most decks.  Only a couple other cards can do that, and they're harder and a lot harder to obtain, respectively:  Market at $5 and Grand Market at $6 with a special restriction.
(hamlet)
Pawn!
Hand size decreasing! (not cantrips)
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 2/3 posted
« Reply #118 on: July 23, 2012, 06:51:10 am »
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The Best $4 Cards - Part 3/3
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#16 ▲7 Worker's Village (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 17.45 ▲3.78 / Median: 18 ▲1.5 / Mode: 17 ▲7 / Standard Deviation: 6.1 ▲0.5
Highest Rank(s): #3 (2x), #5 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #27 (1x), #29 (1x), #30 (1x)

A big jump of 7 ranks and nearly 4 points here. With Worker's Village we have a card with low deviation for a middle-ranked card. It's the first card which was never below #30. In the unweighted ranking it would be even one rank higher on #15.

If you build an engine, you need villages, draw, money and buys. Fishing Village is good because it is reliable and gives you money. Worker's Village gives you the additional buy - you have it included in your village so you don't need a separate card for that. It's also great picking up additional Peddlers in masses and with Goons where you need as many buys as you can get. But when you just need a simple village and don't plan to get more than $8 or $11 respectively, other villages for $4 are probably better. So this is the best village this time, last time it was only the third best. Worker's Village / Masquerade is the #89 best opening.
#15 ▲1 Smithy (Base) Weighted Average: 16.77 ▼0.14 / Median: 16 ▲0.5 / Mode: 12 ▲10 / Standard Deviation: 6.5 ▲0.1
Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #7 (1x), #8 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #30 (1x), #31 (1x), #40 (1x)

Smithy was 8 times in the Top 10 and has very similar stats than last time. Interesting is the big change in mode and the big outlier on #40. In the unweighted ranking it would be even two ranks higher on #13.

This is maybe the simplest card when you're learning Dominion. It has so few text, but is yet very powerful. It introduced us to the card drawing mechanism, the key card for Big Money and engines. In the base set Double-Smithy was still good, but the value dropped down. BM-Smithy is still the way to go on many boards, and if you need a card drawer for a good working engine, Smithy is still a good pick.
#14 ▲1 Gardens (Base) Weighted Average: 16.63 ▼0.8 / Median: 16 ▲0.5 / Mode: 7 ▲11 / Standard Deviation: 7.7 ▲1.5
Highest Rank(s): #3 (2x), #4 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #30 (1x), #32 (2x)

Alternative victory cards are hard to rank, but Gardens has a much lower deviation this time. It has some really high ranks, it was 18 times in the Top 10 (6 times on #7). Still it has a lot of votes in the Twenties and even three times on #30 or below. It managed to beat Smithy by 0.14 points.

Gardens is another card from the base set, introduced us to alternative victory cards. The Gardens rush is still a very good strategy on many boards and in Hinterlands there are more supporting cards for it, so it gained a little more power recently. Gardens is with non-trashing boards easily worth a Duchy and can be worth even more with good supporters like Workshop or Ironworks. It gets even better in cursing games where 3-piling gets faster and is harder to get to $8.
#13 ▲15 Silk Road (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 16.18 ▲8.71 / Median: 16 ▲6.5 / Mode: 8 ▲9 / Standard Deviation: 9.3 ▲0.6
Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #33 (2x), #35 (1x), #38 (1x)

Silk Road is better than Gardens now. It's the Hinterlands card with the highest jump, 15 ranks and nearly 9 points. How we underestimated it! But there are still many players who rated it very low, so it has still a very high deviation, the highest deviation of all $4 cards. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #16, so especially newer players ranked it a lot lower.

Silk Road plays similarly to Gardens. You have to rush them, with support of Workshop/Ironworks and/or additional buys for double Estates in the end game. You can pick Gardens up in the late game without rushing them and they are mostly worth 3VP like a Duchy. That's mostly not the case with Silk Road, you need a special strategy for them. But Silk Road is great with a board with dual-type victory cards like Island, Nobles or Harem.
#12 =0 Envoy (Promo) Weighted Average: 15.68 ▼1.24 / Median: 16 ▼4.5 / Mode: 18 ▼12 / Standard Deviation: 6.4 ▲4.2
Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #4 (1x), #5 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #28 (1x), #31 (1x), #32 (1x)

Much more consensus here now, but still it's on the same rank even though it lost more than one point. It was 13 times in the Top 10.

Envoy is maybe THE Big Money card. In a deck full of silver and an Envoy in hand, you're almost guaranteed a Province. In a Envoy Big Money deck you don't necessarily need Gold, as it will get discarded from your opponent either way. Smithy is #15 and draws 3 cards, of course this is stronger in BM games for drawing 4 cards. In engine games this is usually worse, as your opponent will discard your key card. But if you have a deck with a density of high quality, Envoy can be a very good addition too as you may draw the discarded card later again if you can draw your whole deck.
#11 ▲2 Bridge (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 15.28 ▼0.02 / Median: 14 ▼1 / Mode: 10 ▲7 / Standard Deviation: 6.7 ▲0.9
Highest Rank(s): #2 (2x), #3 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #27 (3x), #28 (1x), #30 (1x)

Bridge has nearly the same points as last time, but still went up 2 ranks. It has a little more consensus, but still a lot of low ranks for such a high ranked card.

Bridge is a very nice card. If you buy only one card, it's not more than a terminal Silver. If you use both buys, it's a terminal Gold, but still not so exciting. But its power rises the more you can play in one turn. With 2 Bridges and you use all 3 buys, they are worth $8, so $4 per Bridge. Its value increases quadratically. With n Bridges you have n²+2n coins if you use every buy. So if you manage to play 7 Bridges and an additional copper, you can buy all 8 Provinces in one turn. The problem is still how to do that. You need enough actions and/or enough drawing power. You definitely need supporters. With a 5-card hand of 2 King's Courts and 3 Bridges, you can accomplish this easily. But also other cards like Tactician and Native Village are great supporters. If there aren't good supporters for 3-piling or mega-turning, Bridge is a trap card for being a terminal Gold in best case.
#10 ▼3 Caravan (Seaside) Weighted Average: 13.14 ▼2.85 / Median: 12 ▼3 / Mode: 9 =0 / Standard Deviation: 6.4 ▼0.9
Highest Rank(s): #1 (2x), #3 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (1x), #26 (2x)

We're making a jump of over 2 points and are now in the Top 10. Caravan lost 3 ranks, nearly 3 points and a lot of supporters, what the deviation shows us. It was 8 times on #9 and it is the second card with a first rank (even twice). It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Caravan is the worse Laboratory, because it has a delayed benefit and can miss the reshuffle and therefore you cannot play it that often. But still a bigger hand size from a nonterminal card is great. Only Big Money decks don't necessarily profit from it, so almost all decks can need a Caravan. Getting all Caravans is still not key to win the game, but if you get them quick (e.g. from Talisman or Ironworks), this can really make a huge difference. So this is almost a must-buy for all good engines. Caravan / Ambassador is the #7 =0 best opening and Caravan / Masquerade on #38 ▲28.
#9 ▲2 Salvager (Seaside) Weighted Average: 12.70 ▲1.06 / Median: 12 =0 / Mode: 12 ▼7 / Standard Deviation: 6.4 ▲3.0
Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #3 (1x), #6 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #27 (1x), #29 (1x), #32 (1x)

Salvager is now 2 ranks higher, so it seems that the people ranking it low last time, changed their mind as you can see by the big change in the deviation. It's another card with a first rank and would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.

Salvager is one of the best trash-for-benefit cards. It's not that a great starter, but still a good card to pick up early. Later in the game you generally want to trash your best card, so you can trash a Gold for an easy Province, maybe even for a double Province. Then you have a significant lead and can salvage your Province for another one, accelerating the game, so that your opponent can't come back. So Salvager is one of the first cards in this list, that is useful on most boards.
#8 =0 Militia (Base) Weighted Average: 11.59 ▼0.86 / Median: 10 =0 / Mode: 6 ▲4 / Standard Deviation: 6.5 ▼0.7
Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #2 (1x), #4 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #27 (1x), #30 (2x)

A few players ranked Militia lower now, what you can see in the higher deviation and a drop of nearly one point. But it's still on the same rank and it's the next card with a first rank. It was voted 10 times on #6.

Militia is another card from the base set and it's the best. Discarding attacks are really annoying and can really hurt some decks. It's great against decks with trashers as the opponent mostly has to choose between buying a good card and discarding the trasher or trash 1-2 cards and buy nothing. Militia is also a good opener as it is also a terminal silver and stops your opponent getting to $5 or $6 early. And if you can play it each turn, this is great. So Militia / Chapel is the #67 ▼11 best opening. You can combo this with Council Room / Governor and your opponent doesn't get the benefit of the additional card, or play Militia and Masquerade afterwards what could really hurt. But there situations when Militia isn't that strong, especially if there are cursers on the board, or if there are effective counters like Watchtower, Horse Traders, Library, Jack of All Trades or Menagerie on the board.
#7 ▼1 Bishop (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 8.88 ▲1.33 / Median: 8 ▲2 / Mode: 5 ▲3 / Standard Deviation: 6.1 ▼0.8
Highest Rank(s): #1 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #23 (1x), #33 (1x), #35 (1x)

Another big jump of 2.7 points. Bishop is over 1 point better, but still lost a rank. It was 3 times on the first spot, but has 2 big outliers in the low ranks. It was voted 9 times on #5. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank higher on #6.

Bishop is a good opener too, as it can trash your cards for the benefit of early VPs. So a trashed Estate nets you already 1 point more without having it in your deck. You can also buy Duchies and trash them for the same VP or Provinces for one point less, but they aren't in your deck anymore which is great. In other scenarios you can trash a Gold late for additional 4VP. There is also a strategy called "Golden Deck" where you trash down to 4 cards (Bishop and 3 Treasures which give at least $7), buy a Province and trash it in the next turn, buying the next province, etc. what gives you 5 VP per turn guaranteed. But take into account the benefit your opponent gets. Often it makes more sense to skip Bishop if your opponent opened Bishop. Then you can trash for free and build a better engine than your opponent. As said above, discarding attacks like Militia really hurt Bishop too. Bishop / Chapel is on #128 in the best openings list.
#6 ▲4 Monument (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 8.47 ▲4.53 / Median: 7 ▲5.5 / Mode: 7 ▲5 / Standard Deviation: 5.1 ▲2.6
Highest Rank(s): #2 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #20 (2x), #24 (2x)

Monument is another winner of this ranking. It went up 4 ranks and over 4 points. Also it has a very low deviation, so the good rank is deserved. It's the last card with no first rank, but it was second 4 times and has very few outliers in the low ranks. It was voted 15 times outside the Top 10 and was voted 12 times on #7. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank lower on #7.

You want to pick up Monument early in the game, because the more you play it, the more it's worth it. It's good in quick games without good additional buys, where it can help you to force your opponent to a 5/3 Province split to win the game. And it's good in decks where you can guarantee to play your Monument regularly. Monument / Chapel is the #38 ▼17 best opening. So one Monument is a great addition to a Hunting Party deck. Monument is also the only infinite VP generating card in the game. With a 5 card hand of 2 King's Courts and 3 Monument you are guaranteed 9 VP per turn. But as it is terminal and when there are very good attacks on the board, then you have to ignore it.
#5 =0 Young Witch (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 5.76 ▲3.42 / Median: 5 =0 / Mode: 5 =0 / Standard Deviation: 5.6 ▲4.5
Highest Rank(s): #1 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #22 (1x), #27 (1x), #29 (1x)

We're making the next big jump of 2.7 points and reaching the Top 5. Last year's Top 5 are this year's Top 5 and Young Witch is still on #5. But it managed to make a huge gap to all other cards with the big increase of over 3 points. It was one of the cards with the highest deviation the last time, but the consensus is much higher this time. It was 12 times on #5 and was only voted 10 times outside the Top 10.

Young Witch is a curser which generally is very strong and only costs $4, so this is huge! But you are guaranteed that there's a Moat-like bane card in the setup. If you would have bought this card either way, YW is mostly not worth it and skippable, especially if the bane is Lighthouse (it defends now in hand and in play) or Scheme (just return it again and again). In all other cases YW is very strong as a curser and has still the draw-and-discard filter advantage. This leads to one of the most-fun synergies: Young Witch and Tunnel. Giving out curses and getting Gold at the same time is great. Young Witch / Tunnel is #32 ▼14 on the opening list.
#4 =0 Remake (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 5.26 ▲2.56 / Median: 4 ▲2 / Mode: 4 ▼2 / Standard Deviation: 6.0 ▲3.4
Highest Rank(s): #1 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #27 (1x), #28 (1x), #33 (1x)

Another one from Cornucopia with a similar change to last time than Young Witch: same rank, but big increase in points and consensus. It was only voted 8 times outside the Top 10, and only 3 times outside the Top 15, 3 big outliers.

If you compare Remake to Chapel, it can only trash 2 cards at a time but at the same time let you get 3 Silvers in your deck. And if there are good $2 cards on the board, you can buy a good card for the last two Copper in your hand too. Remake is maybe after Chapel the fastest opening trasher in the game. You can get high quality decks really fast. Later it gets nearly as useless as Chapel, but at that time this doesn't bother you too much. Remake / Menagerie is the best opening on #149.
#3 =0 Tournament (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 4.86 ▲1.62 / Median: 4 ▲0.5 / Mode: 4 =0 / Standard Deviation: 5.2 ▲0.6
Highest Rank(s): #1 (5x) / Lowest Rank(s): #16 (1x), #26 (1x), #31 (1x)

The third one from Cornucopia in a row. And even the third card managed to get a much better ranking and a little bit better deviation. It was only voted 7 times outside the Top 10 with 2 big outliers.

Many hate Treasure Map for being so luck-based. Tournament is also very luck-based as you have to pair a Province and a Tournament. If you manage to do that you get one of 5 prices that are so strong that Donald X. didn't want to realize these ideas as "normal" cards. So, Tournament is in fact a very good card. I will not go in detail into the prizes, but how do you manage to get a Tournament and Province in hand? It's the same as with Treasure Map. Either trash down to few cards (e.g. Chapel), get a big hand size (e.g. Tactician), or cycle through your deck with sifters (e.g. Warehouse). Also there is the possibility to spam Tournaments which are at least nonterminal and good cards for themselves - at least until your opponent gets Provinces. It's not surprising that Tournament has 3 spots in the Top 10 openings with Ambassador (#2 ▲1), Chapel (#6 ▼1) and Masquerade (#10 ▼2)
#2 ▼1 Jack of all Trades (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 4.15 ▼1.53 / Median: 3 ▼1.5 / Mode: 2 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 3.8 ▼0.8
Highest Rank(s): #1 (13x) / Lowest Rank(s): #15 (2x), #16 (1x)

Jack of All Trades isn't the best $4 card anymore. It lost one and a half points and a little bit of consensus. Still 13 players voted it on #1, 17 players on #2 and it was only voted 6 times outside the Top 10.

Nobody saw that coming when Hinterlands came out. JoaT seems so weak, but it isn't. It seems he does nothing good, he's slowing in trashing, draws few cards and let you get a Silver and has a Spy effect. But it is so strong because it's a very good counter against nearly all attacks. Just buy 2 JoaT and you can skip the cursing attack while you're going for Big Money. Yes, it's boring, but effective. It's weaker in Colony games because of the Silver and there are still situations where a thin deck with an obvious engine or a rush is stronger, but if you feel unsure, JoaT is always a good buy, if you stick to it. It combos bad with nearly all other cards. The opening list proves that. Only Fishing Village and Chapel are better openings paired with JoaT than just Silver. The hype - after the simulators showed its strength - is gone now and it's not a must-buy in every game, but it is still the second best $4 card.
#1 ▲1 Sea Hag (Seaside) Weighted Average: 2.45 ▲1.32 / Median: 1 ▲1 / Mode: 1 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 3.6 ▲3.7
Highest Rank(s): #1 (33x) / Lowest Rank(s): #12 (2x), #14 (1x), #21 (1x)

We have a new #1. It went up over 1 point and has a lead over JaoT of 1.7 points. It also gained more agreement with over the half players ranking it first and only 5 players ranking it outside the Top 10.

Sea Hag is the next $4 curser. It has a big first-player advantage as you may discard your opponents Sea Hag in turn 3 and because the curse goes on top of the deck, this hurts your opponent even more than all other cursers in the game. At least if he hasn't any good counter, like trashing from top of the deck, like Lookout does. Sea Hag / Lookout is also the #49 ▼20 best opening (and many other good SH openings between #50 and #100 still to come). The biggest problem of Sea Hag is: it hurts your oppenent more, but it doesn't give you any benefit (like most of the other attacks do). So every Sea Hag is later a dead Sea Hag if the Curse pile is empty (and is basically a Curse for itself too). And don't forget to build up your economy as Sea Hag doesn't help you now to accomplish this. That may be the reason that Sea Hag / Fool's Gold is the best Sea Hag opening because you get a lot of $2-$3 hands for more Fool's Gold and with at least 2 Fool's Gold it's even better as Silver.

To the $5 cards
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 03:47:40 pm by Qvist »
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #119 on: July 23, 2012, 06:59:44 am »
0

Okay, the list is better now. Especially for silk road which is really well placed.
I think Jack, Smithy and Envoy are overrated. Okay, I'm not a Big Money player but still... I think I ranked tournament above Jack, and a lot of cards above smithy and envoy.
Bishop is too low. It is really a very good card, I would rank it above Young witch at least (even if I love Young witch).
Oh, and Salvager is really too high. It's not that good people. Okay, it can accelerate the game very well, but same with remodel. And it's not a very good opener...
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Morgrim7

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #120 on: July 23, 2012, 07:08:11 am »
0

Underrated: Bishop,
Overrated: Salvager, Caravan, JoaT, mayba Militia a tiny bit.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #121 on: July 23, 2012, 07:43:06 am »
0

I like Salvager where it is. It is actually a decent opener and just so useful in the endgame.

The ratings of Smithy and Envoy feel a bit high but the cards in the middle are so hard to rank...

Also I don't think Bishop is underrated. I mean, it definately doesn't belong in the top 5 and while Bishop more often is dominating than Monument is, Bishop can also be a bad choice which loses the game for you. Monument is just generally pretty helpful.
It is just a matter of how you want to rate the cards.

Remake should be a bit higher imo. Maybe not 2nd place but it should be ahead of Tournament.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #122 on: July 23, 2012, 09:02:41 am »
0

Well...

The good news is that the top 10 are the same as my top 10, and the top four are also the same as my top 4.  Those groups seemed pretty obvious to me, so I'm glad people agreed.

The bad news, of course, is the order within these groups, as well as the massive overrating of Smithy and Envoy, which as I mentioned in the last group, are not actually that great BM strategies. I mean, okay they're fast in a vacuum, but both of them are just so, so fragile in the face of any attacking, even weak attacks.  I mean, Oracle beats these cards, that should tell you all you need to know.  Neither of those cards deserve to be in the top 16 at all.

Bridge and Worker's Village are well-ranked.  Bridge actually has pretty bad win rates, but it's strong enough in experienced hands that I'm willing to chalk that up to lower-level players misplaying the card.  Everyone likes Bridge, but only players who know how to make engines and mega-turns and alt-VP decks actually get full value out of it.  I had Gardens and Silk Road lower but I'm not too too upset they're up here.  A lot of my difference with the overall ranking is that I don't think they add much value at all when you buy them as ersatz Duchies, so I'm not inclined to fight it much.  I would fight ranking them any higher, though.

The six cards in the Caravan to Young Witch stretch are all pretty close in value, so it's hard for me to get upset about the fact that I had most of them in slightly different positions.  I do think that Young Witch is a tad overrated in this list; it is just skippable way too often even though it's a curse-giver.  Excepting the unjust interlopers Smithy and Envoy, it's the card in this list I buy least often.  I had Bishop at #5, but I'm aware that's personal bias as it's a card I love and play particularly well.

As for the top 4, blech.  They're the right four, but in almost exactly the wrong order.  Tournament > Remake > JoaT > Sea Hag.  And except for JoaT and Hag, it's not particularly close.  Tournament is just so game-changing on most boards, and is a decent $4 even when it's not dominant.  Basically only rush strategies don't want Tournament.  Remake is quite probably the best card at improving your deck's value in the early game, to the point where I will usually open Remake/Silver over Chapel/Silver.  That's real ultimate power.  (Of course, if there's another $4 I want, or I got the 5/2 split, that's a reason to go Chapel instead).  Remake is just as good an engine helper as JoaT is a BM helper, and there's an engine to be made more often than not, so Remake > JoaT.  As for JoaT versus Hag, well both change the game but I can't ignore that the head-to-head gives JoaT an advantage.  Eh, I guess I could sorta buy Hag over JoaT.  But not over Tournament and Remake: those two are the top two without question.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 09:22:53 am by chwhite »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #123 on: July 23, 2012, 09:10:05 am »
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JoaT dropped to #2?  But it DoubleJoaT dominates Sea Hag...
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2012, 09:11:26 am »
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The only card here I had considerably different was Monument. The extra VP is nice in BM games, but in an engine, it's a terminal silver with no benefit until scoring. Yes, it's an amazing benefit, but the lack of extra benefit means it's generally best to avoid until your engine is actually running, which means you only have 9 other cards to look at to get your engine built with. Hm, actually, that's still pretty good. Maybe I have been underrating Monument.

I put Jack above Sea Hag, and I stick to that. Jack is just that good in money games, and so easy to build upon. Sea Hag is very close, it's perhaps more useful just a tad more often when neither are on the board, but when Sea Hag and Jack are both on the board, Jack is just so much better it's crazy - and given one  is on the board, the chance of the other being there is 9/156 (give or take), about 5.8%. That's a frequent enough case for it to swing the rating, in my opinion.

Compared to my $3 ratings, which are mostly within 2 either way, these are really all over the place. Lots of cards up or down by 4-5 places or so and a few up to 9 places different. Still, the middle 4's are just so hard to rate.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2012, 09:21:54 am »
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I seem to be the guy that had Smithy/Envoy in 3/4, which probably is really too high.  I think I put it there in a mixed rating on being both pretty strong in BigMoney as well as engines. It's certainly not the strongest draw in engines, but at least it's a good draw, and it helps you to reliably spike an early $5 or $6 to come to the cards you really want, and nevertheless fits into the engine. And you probably don't want to play the 5th Margrave anyway, so if one or two of them are Smithies, the better for them.
In the BigMoney, it's also not the fastest, but again can be played to be combined with the more important $5-BM, and terminal draw works quite well with alternate Treasure. While, of course, terminal $2 is more extendable with Cantrips, but then you are half-way into an engine anyway...

So probably no killer in both situations, but therefore significantly important in both situations.
Tournament below is probably just my own incapability, 66% gain with -2 effect with +1.4 effect without can not be ranked in the top3.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2012, 09:24:29 am »
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I'm in the Sea Hag camp. I know Jack beat Sea hag if both are in the kingdom. But Sea Hag is a must-buy more often than Jack.

The only card here I had considerably different was Monument. The extra VP is nice in BM games, but in an engine, it's a terminal silver with no benefit until scoring. Yes, it's an amazing benefit, but the lack of extra benefit means it's generally best to avoid until your engine is actually running, which means you only have 9 other cards to look at to get your engine built with. Hm, actually, that's still pretty good. Maybe I have been underrating Monument.

Monument is amazing in engines. Recently, I had a colony game with worker's village, Scrying pool and monument, it was damn fast.
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Fragasnap

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #127 on: July 23, 2012, 09:48:40 am »
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JoaT dropped to #2?  But it DoubleJoaT dominates Sea Hag...
Double Jack dominating Sea Hag says nothing about which is actually a better card, only that when both are on the table, you'll probably go Double Jack rather than Sea Hag.
Jack of All Trades is a soft-counter to practically every Attack, so a strategy relying upon slowing down opponents is not going to bother a Double Jack strategy. That is not to say that Double Jack is the fastest thing in the world, simply the hardest to slow down and I've played plenty of games wherein slowing down opponents is not even an option.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2012, 10:45:59 am »
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Well, this section is much better than the previous 2. I agree that Smithy and Envoy are a tad overrated, and I probably overrated them myself. Great to see Silk Road get its due--it is actually better than Gardens.

But nothing is more satisfying than seeing the wildly overrated Caravan begin to tumble. It could stand to lose a few more places in my estimation.

For my money, the top 5 are monument, remake, tournament, jack, sea hag.... in that order.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2012, 10:56:00 am »
0

I had Gardens over Silk Road almost solely on the strength of no-trash Curse games.  I acknowledge that Silk Road beats Gardens on the head-to-head, but I think it rarely beats it by such a wide margin that you would go alt-VP with Silk Roads but not with Gardens: you'd merely buy SR over Gardens if both are in the Kingdom.  (Obviously, there are a few, mostly Crossroads-powered, exceptions to this).  Junkball Curse decks are, I think, the main case where Gardens are better than Silk Road, and I think these sorts of games are more numerous than games with both Gardens and SR, or some sort of Victory card engine that actively prefers SR to Gardens.  So that's why I ranked them in the order I did.

But really the important thing is that they're next to each other since they're so similar, so it's good that happened.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #130 on: July 23, 2012, 11:03:06 am »
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So how exactly should the game look like where you would go for Gardens, but not SR? And what value do you expect Gardens to get? Because usually, I don't think it's really difficult to get SR to 4VP, especially when not mirrored. And even 3VP is usually fine when coming from a Curse game.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2012, 11:05:43 am »
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Also, just FWIW my entire $4 rankings, since I've given them for $2 and $3:

1. Tournament
2. Remake
3. Jack of All Trades
4. Sea Hag
5. Bishop
6. Salvager
7. Young Witch
8. Caravan
9. Monument
10. Militia
11. Conspirator
12. Bridge
13. Island
14. Moneylender
15. Cutpurse
16. Spice Merchant
17. Worker's Village
18. Farming Village
19. Gardens
20. Silk Road
21. Envoy
22. Mining Village
23. Smithy
24. Horse Traders
25. Quarry
26. Ironworks
27. Throne Room
28. Baron
29. Walled Village
30. Remodel
31. Spy
32. Nomad Camp
33. Trader
34. Feast
35. Navigator
36. Bureaucrat
37. Coppersmith
38. Treasure Map
39. Noble Brigand
40. Talisman
41. Pirate Ship
42. Scout
43. Thief


If I was redoing this I would definitely swap Noble Brigand and Treasure Map, probably Feast/Navigator and Caravan/Monument as well.  Also would consider dropping Cutpurse a couple and raising Gardens/Silk Road- possibly have all three of them in between Worker's and Farming Village.

Pretty sure I stand by everything else here.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2012, 11:16:49 am »
0

So how exactly should the game look like where you would go for Gardens, but not SR? And what value do you expect Gardens to get? Because usually, I don't think it's really difficult to get SR to 4VP, especially when not mirrored. And even 3VP is usually fine when coming from a Curse game.

Something like this: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110223-181051-d8c95698.html

Looking at my games it appears that a lot of my Gardens-Curse games would have given me the same number of points if they were Silk Road, so it's possible that I'm overstating this effect and SR is better in curse games than I give it credit for.  Thinking about it more closely, I'll postulate that for games where Gardens > SR, you're going to need not just bloat but the inclination to get Provinces too and not just rush- or you're using something like wacky Talisman shenanigans to bloat your deck with non-Victory cards.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2012, 11:44:40 am »
0

My $4 list:


1. Sea Hag
2. Jack of All Trades
3. Tournament
4. Remake
5. Monument
6. Young Witch
7. Salvager
8. Bishop
9. Militia
10. Envoy
11. Bridge
12. Smithy
13. Spice Merchant
14. Caravan
15. Moneylender
16. Horse Traders
17. Silk Road
18. Worker’s Village
19. Baron
20. Mining Village
21. Quarry
22. Ironworks
23. Gardens
24. Conspirator
25. Farming Village
26. Island
27. Cutpurse
28. Throne Room
29. Trader
30. Nomad Camp
31. Remodel
32. Navigator
33. Noble Brigand
34. Bureaucrat
35. Treasure Map
36. Talisman
37. Spy
38. Walled Village
39. Feast
40. Pirate Ship
41. Coppersmith
42. Thief
43. Scout


I definitely ranked Smithy/Envoy too good and Walled Village too bad. Pretty happy with the rest.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2012, 12:37:47 pm »
+2

I put young witch #1. I stand by that. The thing is, it has teh most impact on the games - even when I don't buy it, I'm almost always investing pretty heavily in the bane. It also beats everything in straight BM+1, whcih of course, never happens, but there you go. I assume people aren't giving it credit for being powerful when you by the bane instead of it, but I still give credit to YW there.
Tournament, well, in 2p, you do want it more often than the rest, perhaps, because you only don't want it in BM terminal draw, and well, basically any village + tournament is enough to go engine over BM. So you almost always want it in 2p (it's much much worse with more people, because you get blocked way more often). Okay, this is true, but it doesn't hit top 3 for me, because cursing is a bigger impact on the game, and jack can just steamroll so much stuff. Well, is jack up there that high really? I could see tournament over jack, I suppose - I go with jack, but I think this is probably stylistic more than anything, and objectively perhaps it isn't right.
Smithy and envoy - I think they are in roughly the correct place. They are not so great as BM strategies, but important baselines to consider. And they help a good bit in engines, in a pinch. I definitely like smithy a touch better than envoy, usually though. Well, probably I overrate these a little.
Gardens/SR: There are situations where gardens is better. Biggest one I can think of is IGG, but there's other hodge-podge of stuff. Very often they're going ot basically be the same. A decent amount of the time, SR will be better. So I have it a touch better overall.
Villages: Farming's benefit does not seem SO great to me, but it's nice. It's almost never going to get me to buy the thing over random regular village, but I guess it is a nice benefit I underrate a bit? I dunno, doesn't seem to be that big a deal for me - EXCEPT, in cases you can really leverage it. So with cartographer/apothecary kind of reordering things, and most particularly when facing a rabble engine. Mining, well, you need loads of plus buys to make it really good for an engine, you can use it to slingshot a bit, but you don't really want to do that so so much (silver, man). It's definitely nice for some sort of tweener decks, that aren't really engines, or BM, so the village is nice but not so necessary, or somethin'? I dunno, it's a nice thing to have, but not something that really makes the card as concretely good as it seems it ought to. Walled, eh, it's very meh benefit. But not nothing, and hey, I will take it when I need a village. So worker's. Worker's is the class of the 4s, and I have to say, I think probably the second best village, on average. Villages want engines, engines want buys, you get it all in this nice package. I mean, okay, you don't need 7 buys usually, so it's not so much the village you just get a billion of, particularly if there are a bunch of them out there. But the one I want to make sure I have? Yeah, worker's. Heck here, it even competes with fishing, sometimes. Well, most often fishing is better, of course, but worker's is the one you'll probably pass it up for most often. Though the gap from FV to WV is much bigger of course than from WV to the rest.
TR I probably overrated, and it compares fairly closely with the non-worker's $4 villages. But you know, it still plays fairly differently. Still seems to be a mid-high $4 to me.

Oh, monument. It's really really good. It is pretty darn good in BM - beats most of the terminal draw BM straight up, though not the best of them, and complements other non-draw BM cards pretty well (like, it goes nicely with Jack). And I think it is even better in a lot of engines - you get to play it a bajillion times, it lets you catch up from big deficits; and you actually never get into an unbreakable deficit; it makes BM change how he plays, sort of a lot. Of course it helped me complete the most ridicufying comeback of everness.

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #135 on: July 23, 2012, 02:54:35 pm »
0

So most of the discussion here has to be about the very top. There's not a whole lot to say about the rest. Everything is at least within 3-4 spots of where I had them.

I'm a bit surprised that 2 cards managed to squeeze between Envoy and Smithy, simply because I can't see too many people putting them anywhere other than right next to each other, regardless of how high or low they are, but it's not like the gap is huge. Probably just a couple people could have created that gap.

I also have Garden/Silk Road a bit higher (above Caravan and Militia) because I think they do have more of that game-changing ability. They create a larger number of situtaions where winning the Province split != winning the game, which affects strategy a lot. Maybe green earlier, maybe green later, but whatever it is, it has a much bigger impact than just workshop rushes.

Okay, now to the top 5: I submitted Tournament > Sea Hag > Young Witch > Remake > Jack, but I can see various orderings all being reasonable. My rationale was that Tournament/Sea Hag/Young Witch are bigger impacts on overall strategy, whereas Remake and Jack are just pretty much the best openings for engine and BM, respectively. Now being as good as they are, they do have an ability to make the difference between whether you should go BM or engine in a give board, but they don't give the game the same unique complexion that the other 3 give. Tournament does stuff like make Provinces the goal in Colony games, and very often makes the whole focus of the early game setting up a position where you are likely to be able to grab the first prize. Sea Hag like instantly makes games at least 3 turns longer by making a lot of early turns really useless, which is a really neat effect. Young Witch you definitely buy less than any of the rest of the top 4, but again, it's big impact even if you don't buy it. Probably at least 75% of the time you should buy either the Young Witch or the bane (I know a lot of people don't value this aspect in these rankings, so I'm not at all surprised it fell to #5). And it makes the order of the opening split really interesting, because depending on turn order, you might be able to skip bane or Young Witch when you see what your opponent does. And at the end of the day, it's a curser. Cursers are big impact cards. With all that said, I might still move Remake up 1-2 spots just on brute strength, depending on my mood when you ask me, but mostly I'm pretty satisfied with my rankings.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #136 on: July 23, 2012, 03:17:56 pm »
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My top 10 :

- Sea Hag
- Island
- Tournament
- Bishop
- Remake
- Young Witch
- Monument
- Silk road
- Gardens
- Jack

Maybe my "real" list was strongly different, I don't remember. It's really difficult to compare Monument-YoungWitch-SR-Gardens, especially. But I absolutely don't change my opinion about the first three.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #137 on: July 23, 2012, 03:22:59 pm »
+2

Island! Gah, I am such an Island hater.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #138 on: July 23, 2012, 03:32:56 pm »
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Young Witch you definitely buy less than any of the rest of the top 4, but again, it's big impact even if you don't buy it. Probably at least 75% of the time you should buy either the Young Witch or the bane (I know a lot of people don't value this aspect in these rankings, so I'm not at all surprised it fell to #5).

Well, it's true that you buy either YW or the bane most of the time.  I think that's actually a somewhat trivial observation.  In games with sufficiently strong banes, you're going to buy the bane whether or not Young Witch was out in the kingdom or not.  I don't think it's really fair to count games where, say, cards like Ambassador or Fishing Village are the Bane as games where Young Witch has a big impact.  You were buying those cards anyway, so the YW is just inconsequential.  And then, of course, there are games where Scheme is the Bane: okay, the YW makes you buy a Scheme early.  And that is all it does, big whoop.

A better metric would be, how often do you buy Young Witch or change your strategy considerably to buy the Bane?  And I think it's probably a bit less than 75 percent, though sure it's more often than just buying Young Witch.

Really, my rationale for ranking YW as low as I do is not so much that the Bane makes it skippable particuarly often, but that it's probably the curse-giver which I think is hurt most by the presence of trashing.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #139 on: July 23, 2012, 05:24:19 pm »
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The thing is that I feel like games with Young Witch, you have to go either YW-BM or engine+bane (maybe +YW as well) 75% of the time. If you go engine without bane, you'll lose to engine+bane if they add the Young Witch late and play it every turn. The other 25% of the time I'm including times when you buy the bane but don't care that it's the bane. I think Young Witch has a big and interesting impact a lot of the time -- often enough that it's really close in power level to Sea Hag, and putting them 3+ spots apart doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If you can skip Young Witch in anything other than a power bane scenario, you can skip Sea Hag too. But we've had Sea Hag vs Young Witch discussion in some other thread before...
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #140 on: July 24, 2012, 09:36:21 pm »
+1

Mining, well, you need loads of plus buys to make it really good for an engine, you can use it to slingshot a bit, but you don't really want to do that so so much (silver, man). It's definitely nice for some sort of tweener decks, that aren't really engines, or BM, so the village is nice but not so necessary, or somethin'? I dunno, it's a nice thing to have, but not something that really makes the card as concretely good as it seems it ought to.

MV is great for getting you to that double Province buy on the last turn when your engine is choking down with green and you can't get enough $ normally. It's saved me often enough that I'd consider it second to Worker's Village and I'd prefer it to the other $4 villages when another +buy is in the kingdom.

I also never bust an MV prematurely for something more expensive. You get the extra $2 now, but you'd have to recover the $4 in value lost from the MV, and that's never ever given me an edge, in my experience.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 09:38:32 pm by dondon151 »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #141 on: July 25, 2012, 03:58:36 am »
0

My top 10 :

- Sea Hag
- Island
- Tournament
- Bishop
- Remake
- Young Witch
- Monument
- Silk road
- Gardens
- Jack

Maybe my "real" list was strongly different, I don't remember. It's really difficult to compare Monument-YoungWitch-SR-Gardens, especially. But I absolutely don't change my opinion about the first three.
Why did you put Island at #2? Don't you think YW or Monument or Jack might be better? My top ten:
-Sea Hag
-Tournament
-Young Witch
-Jack of all Trades
-Remake
-Monument
-Bishop
-Silk Road
-Gardens
-Salvager?
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #142 on: July 25, 2012, 04:08:05 am »
+1

What I think my top 10 was:

Sea Hag
Tournament
Remake
Jack
Young Witch
Salvager
Caravan
Baron
Militia
Scout


I may be a bit off about that 10th one there. Baron is sooooo underrated in this list.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #143 on: July 25, 2012, 04:08:36 am »
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Morgrim : I explained why, and I stand by that. This is largely according my stats on councilroom.
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Morgrim7

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #144 on: July 25, 2012, 04:46:41 am »
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What I think my top 10 was:

Sea Hag
Tournament
Remake
Jack
Young Witch
Salvager
Caravan
Baron
Militia
Scout


I may be a bit off about that 10th one there. Baron is sooooo underrated in this list.
A bit off? I agree with yu on Baron. And wow, totally forgot about Militia. Put it in between Bishop and Gardens.
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olneyce

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #145 on: July 25, 2012, 10:49:36 am »
0

1. Sea Hag
2. Tournament
3. Jack of all Trades
4. Remake
5. Young Witch
6. Caravan
7. Militia
8. Monument
9. Salvager
10. Bridge

I'm willing to consider the possibility that I'm overrating Bridge, but I feel pretty good about the top 9.  Maybe Caravan should be 8 or something, but that's getting out into the weeds of precision.

Baron is a good card and I had it at #6 or #7 the first time we did these lists.  I was wrong.  It's a good card but it's NOT a great card.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #146 on: July 25, 2012, 11:24:23 am »
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I REALLY don't understand why so many high ranks for salvager.
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philosophyguy

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #147 on: July 25, 2012, 12:58:37 pm »
+1

I'm surprised by the high ranks for Caravan. It's never a card that will actively hurt your deck, but usually it doesn't do a ton to make your deck stronger. Unless you've got an Ironworks/Workshop/Talisman thing going on, Caravan is often a trap. What am I missing?
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philosophyguy

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #148 on: July 25, 2012, 12:59:46 pm »
+2

Salvager is one of the best TFB cards out there. It turns your opening Estates into something useful, lets you thin your deck, gives +Buy, and lets you accelerate the endgame if you're ahead. What's not to like?
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O

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #149 on: July 25, 2012, 04:16:49 pm »
+1

Salvager: Trash an estate, lose no spending power over silver opening (quite strong for the 85% or whatever when it doesn't miss an estate). Then its also great in the endgame. Whats not to like?

Saying "caravan doesn't really help your deck" is rubbish. It's certainly the #1 or #2 3-4 cost cantrip, depending on how you define tournament. Anyone arguing that caravan is mediocre is also arguing that a 4$ lab is strong but not overpowered.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #150 on: July 25, 2012, 04:31:23 pm »
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First, I don't like to open salvager because Salvager-4xcopper is even more frustrating than Baron-4xcopper.
Second, you really don't want to trash your action cards, and salvager is very bad in big money games (because, it collides with the terminal drawer, and trashing silver is very bad, you have 3$ for two cards...).
Finally, salvager accelerate the game in the same way as remodel, so why salvager should be much better than remodel ?

I know sometimes salvager is great, but not as great as bridge, bishop, caravan, militia, baron etc... In any case, salvager is far from the top 10 for me...
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philosophyguy

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #151 on: July 25, 2012, 04:31:43 pm »
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See, I don't think Caravan is that awesome as a cantrip. This turn, it does nothing. Peddler (which honestly you'll never buy for more than $4 anyway) is almost always superior, Tournament is just a notch below Peddler qua cantrip, and Oasis is going to be better most of the time. It's true that Caravan is a delayed Lab, but you can't make Caravan chains like you can with Lab chains because the Caravan you draw into your second turn doesn't stack as a Lab (it's effect is delayed until turn 3).

Caravan is good at smoothing out a deck's draws, but it doesn't create explosive hands like Lab. But trashing also smooths out a deck's draws. Caravan has a much larger opportunity cost than a trasher like Remake or Chapel because you have to buy multiples, whereas your trasher only requires one buy.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #152 on: July 25, 2012, 04:39:27 pm »
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See, I don't think Caravan is that awesome as a cantrip. This turn, it does nothing. Peddler (which honestly you'll never buy for more than $4 anyway) is almost always superior, Tournament is just a notch below Peddler qua cantrip, and Oasis is going to be better most of the time. It's true that Caravan is a delayed Lab, but you can't make Caravan chains like you can with Lab chains because the Caravan you draw into your second turn doesn't stack as a Lab (it's effect is delayed until turn 3).

Caravan is good at smoothing out a deck's draws, but it doesn't create explosive hands like Lab. But trashing also smooths out a deck's draws. Caravan has a much larger opportunity cost than a trasher like Remake or Chapel because you have to buy multiples, whereas your trasher only requires one buy.

Peddler is certainly not better than Caravan.
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dondon151

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards - Part 3/3 posted
« Reply #153 on: July 25, 2012, 04:48:42 pm »
+2

I'm surprised by the high ranks for Caravan. It's never a card that will actively hurt your deck, but usually it doesn't do a ton to make your deck stronger. Unless you've got an Ironworks/Workshop/Talisman thing going on, Caravan is often a trap. What am I missing?

Caravan is one of the top cards that correlate to shorter game lengths according to CR stats.

First, I don't like to open salvager because Salvager-4xcopper is even more frustrating than Baron-4xcopper.

No it's not. They're both really bad, sure, but you still get to trash a card with Salvager-4C whereas you can't do anything at all with Baron-4C. Second, if you draw Salvager-Silver-3C, you can trash the Silver for a Gold, which is not as good as trashing an Estate, obviously, but the worst case scenario here is better than with Baron.

Second, you really don't want to trash your action cards, and salvager is very bad in big money games (because, it collides with the terminal drawer, and trashing silver is very bad, you have 3$ for two cards...).

So you don't open with Salvager in a BM game; you open with either your payload action or with Silver/Silver hoping to get that payload action, then pick up a Salvager in the endgame. If they collide, you trash your payload action for $3-$5 and hopefully get that Province or Duchy-Estate out of it.

Finally, salvager accelerate the game in the same way as remodel, so why salvager should be much better than remodel ?

Because Remodel is inflexible and doesn't accelerate the same way that Salvager does.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 04:50:19 pm by dondon151 »
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