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[methods of rationality]

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/15/game-20120715-170928-ae12b736.html
Game with Apothecary, cache and herbalist. I feel like my mistakes include returning cache to my deck instead of potion. Also, he greened earlier than I did. I know apothecary tends to stall in the end game and that's why I held off greening. What are your thoughts on how I could have played better?

[dondon151]

I think you need more Apothecaries and less Caches.

I also feel that Vault is a good complement to Apothecary because it can draw off the crap that Apothecary leaves on top of your deck and discard it for $, making an Apothecary engine more resilient to green.

But in the end, I think Envoy-BM is the way to go in this kingdom...

[ehunt]

I like apothecary + vault a lot better. I think cache/apothecary is a bit of a trap. It seems good because apothecary mitigates the downside of cache. But the problem is that cache magnifies the downside of apothecary (it's bad at drawing money cards for you, it wants you to have cantrips).

I disagree that envoy + BM beats apothecary + vault. apothecary+ vault is fast and deadly.

[dondon151]

I got 4 Provinces in 12 turns opening Herbalist/Potion if they collided on turn 3 for a 2x Apothecary on turns 3 and 4, and closer to 14-15 turns otherwise. Apothecary-Vault still chokes heavily on green cards sooner or later but at least is able to sustain Duchy buys. I solitaired this a couple of times and ended up getting hands with $10+ followed by completely dead hands with maybe $2-3. Maybe I wasn't playing it quite right? It seems to me that if you're not going to detour for a bunch of Apothecaries, then you're probably better off ignoring Potion completely and going straight Vault-BM.

[DStu]

I disagree that envoy + BM beats apothecary + vault. apothecary+ vault is fast and deadly.

Beside that, afaik, BM-Vault beats BM-Envoy.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I disagree that envoy + BM beats apothecary + vault. apothecary+ vault is fast and deadly.

Beside that, afaik, BM-Vault beats BM-Envoy.

Envoy+Vault beats both of those, and still loses to Envoy+Cache, which loses to Envoy+Vault+Cache. You're allowed to buy multiple different kingdom cards in a BM deck, and when you do, you can get some pretty strong BM strategies.

If you want to go the Apothecary route, you surely don't want the third Cache (or maybe even the second). Your deck is way too big for the number of Apothecaries you have. Getting Vault instead can help peel off the VP cards Apothecary leaves behind.

[DStu]

You're allowed to buy multiple different kingdom cards in a BM deck

wooot??

Seriously, I just read BM-Envoy was the way to go, and saw a quite simple stronger alternative that proved this wrong.  There is also the Brigand that pretty surely kills standard BM-Envoy (and can compete with Vault), but might get problems with the Caches.