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Author Topic: second player compensation  (Read 5290 times)

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Kn

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second player compensation
« on: July 21, 2011, 10:59:40 am »
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It's undoubtedly true that first player has an advantage in the game. Perhaps this could be balanced out by giving the second player a certain number of free victory points. I'm not sure how large the bonus should be. The problem is that the amount of compensation to be fair depends on the kingdom cards used.

I'll give an example number: 1.5VP (+ 1VP more if there are attack cards in the set). It needs to be revised based on analysis of VP statistics, which I haven't done.

Another option is to have a bidding system for who goes first. Each player bids a certain number of VP to give to the second player if the bidder goes first. The person with the highest bid goes first. Problem is that it prolongs the opening and makes it harder for inexperienced players.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2011, 11:14:50 am »
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I think the best solution is to make the guy who won go last in the next game. Oh hey, that's in the rules, fancy that!
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Kn

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2011, 11:23:01 am »
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But if you use the automatchmaker, then you are often facing someone different from last game.
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rinkworks

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2011, 11:26:03 am »
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There was another thread on this, but heck if I can find it now that I need it.  Someone suggested a VP handicap like this, but as I recall the conclusion in the ensuing discussion was that no single flat amount of VP would be balanced for all kingdoms.  Sometimes it would be too much, sometimes too little.  The best suggestion along those lines I'd heard (besides simply to take turns going first and averaging out the advantage) was having players bid VP for the first-turn advantage.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2011, 11:27:45 am »
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If we're talking Isotropic, it implements the "winners go last" rule as best it can. i.e. Anyone who just won a game will be put into group A, anyone else (losers, new people etc.) will be put into group B. Anytime a game starts, all members of group B will go before all members of group A. It is random within each group.

Edit: I assumed we weren't talking Isotropic because there is no way that Isotropic will ever implement a system of 'paying' VPs to your opponents for whatever reason. That's just not a part of Dominion. (inb4 new expansion lets you pay VPs to opponents for some reason)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 11:29:57 am by Thisisnotasmile »
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Kuildeous

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2011, 11:36:32 am »
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In our group, we save time by having each player deal out his starting hand, determine if he got a 3/4 or 2/5, buy his first two cards, and shuffle everything together.

At the time, we didn't really think about the ramifications of knowing if an opponent chose an attack card or a Potion.

But considering the first-player advantage, I'm inclined to keep that, as it does give later players a slight advantage in seeing the directions that the other players are heading.

Is that enough to offset first-player advantage? I doubt it, but it's a slight perk.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2011, 11:37:20 am »
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TINAS is generally right, but I believe new players go into the same group as winners, not losers (this stops people from logging out to be in the losers 'going first' group and getting an advantage).
And actually, there are some boards where second player has advantage, it's just that these are much less numerous than those where first player has advantage or where it's even.

Thisisnotasmile

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2011, 11:50:27 am »
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Also:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=91.0

If you give the last player an arbitrary advantage (such as Kuildeous suggests) to make up for the 'first player advantage' you don't solve the problem. The first player advantage is only an advantage in about half of all (2-player) games. By giving the last player an advantage, you neutralise the first player advantage in those half of games, but now you've given the last player a clear advantage in the half of games when the first player didn't get his extra go. So instead of there being a half-first player advantage, you've now got a half-last player advantage. Doesn't really solve anything.
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guided

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2011, 12:26:33 pm »
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This topic is done to death, but here's the executive summary: Static VP awards for later seats are a terrible idea. Equal-turn variants, one and all, are a terrible idea. Play enough games online and turn order advantage cancels out. In live settings, play another game with the official rule. Or if it really horrifically bothers you and keeps you awake at night to have a per-game turn order advantage, bid points for seating order after setting up the board.
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def

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2011, 02:41:19 pm »
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Bidding victory points is a nice idea.
How many would you bid in a game
- where there are no cards which seem to give an advantage when played before the other players,
- in a cursing game,
- in a tournament game,
- province or colony,
- in a game with cards like militia (militia in a chapel-game can hurt) or cutpurse (especially with more than two players)?
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grep

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2011, 12:41:17 pm »
+1

The fair compensation is different for different kingdom sets. For two players, there is a classical "pie division" protocol.

Player 1 chooses a compensation in VP for the first move (an integer+0.5 number)
Player 2 chooses if he wants to play first (and pay the compensation) or second (and receive the compensation)
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Jimmmmm

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2011, 07:44:47 am »
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And actually, there are some boards where second player has advantage, it's just that these are much less numerous than those where first player has advantage or where it's even.

Would you mind giving a brief summary of what kind of boards favour which player (or link to a previous discussion if it exists)?
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Reyk

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2011, 07:52:29 am »
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And actually, there are some boards where second player has advantage, it's just that these are much less numerous than those where first player has advantage or where it's even.

Would you mind giving a brief summary of what kind of boards favour which player (or link to a previous discussion if it exists)?

We've discussed this game:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=405.0

(I'm not sure however whether there is an advantage for second player. Geronimoo disagrees. But I think it's easier to play.)

In addition there might be very reactive boards with Bishop, Potion, Embargo, ...
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DG

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2011, 09:32:33 am »
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There are some cards that influence every player's deck, such as pirate ship or bishop, so that when your opponent buys those cards you can make a better informed decision in second seat and use their influence on your deck to your advantage. This is typically in kingdoms where there are no extra actions available and it's difficult to change strategy after the first buy.

Another situation might be a game with 3 dominant strategies that are roughly equal with each other but don't combine with each other. However each of those strategies would beat one of the others and lose to one of the others. An example might be similar to smithy/money, warehouse/pirate, warehouse/conspirator.

There are also some reaction cards, such as secret chamber, that become weak when bought by the first player when they're not actually needed (or buying one deters the second player from an attack strategy altogether).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 09:35:01 am by DG »
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rrenaud

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Re: second player compensation
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2011, 12:56:41 pm »
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I'll give an example number: 1.5VP (+ 1VP more if there are attack cards in the set). It needs to be revised based on analysis of VP statistics, which I haven't done.

Another option is to have a bidding system for who goes first. Each player bids a certain number of VP to give to the second player if the bidder goes first. The person with the highest bid goes first. Problem is that it prolongs the opening and makes it harder for inexperienced players.

Here is some data to guide bidding.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20.msg438#msg438

Personally, I think having the 1st place player and the 2nd place player win as often as each other would be a nice feature to have in a game, but Dominion (and even Chess), don't have this feature.
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