Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]

Author Topic: Must-Buy Cards?  (Read 17704 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Epoch

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 421
  • Respect: +38
    • View Profile
Must-Buy Cards?
« on: July 20, 2011, 07:33:05 pm »
0

Are there cards -- besides the obvious high-end treasures/VP cards -- that you feel like you will almost always buy if they're on the table, even without any particular support from the rest of the kingdom cards?  Like, say, 85%+ of the time, regardless of the board?

I can't think of too many, besides the Cursing Attacks.  Maybe Tournament.
Logged

hyku

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2011, 07:43:54 pm »
0

I think goons is a must buy. If there are no village-type cards getting one is still better than a gold. And if there are villages, buying goons over gold is a no-brainer. I have yet to discover a way to beat goons without buying them yourself. Its such a must buy i really dislike the card. Does anyone know ways to beat a goons deck without getting goons?
Logged

philosophyguy

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 575
  • Respect: +299
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2011, 07:46:32 pm »
0

Ambassador, Chapel, and Sea Hag are definite "must buy" cards. Grand Market is almost a must-buy.
Logged

hyku

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2011, 08:01:26 pm »
0

Ambassador, Chapel, and Sea Hag are definite "must buy" cards. Grand Market is almost a must-buy.

Chapel and sea hag aren't must buys when ambassador is on the board.
Chapel isn't a must buy if you going for a alchemist/lab draw engine with bank.
Sea hag isn't a must buy if there is a better cursing card like witch or mountebank.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2011, 08:14:22 pm »
0

It depends on how high your threshold is. If you're talking 100%, there is no card at all that is a "must buy". But for 85%, there are some. The strong $5 cursing attacks are what come to mind. Ambassador is probably even beyond these.
But you can get around chapel actually rather often, and sea hag as well.
Goons isn't close to being must buy - in non-colony games, it's USUALLY better than gold, but not always, and there are also several situations where you don't buy gold. Furthermore, when you need to hit $11, skipping goons for gold is the right play sorta often.

hyku

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2011, 08:35:11 pm »
0

I'm trying to think of time when you wouldn't want at least 1 goons in your deck. The only deck/engine that I can think that would not want a goons would be a minion, and in that case, they wouldn't want to get gold either. Can you give me other examples that you are thinking of?

The other point is whether goons becomes a less valuable buy when playing a colony game. I think it retains its "must-buy-ness"
Colony games will generally last longer, which means that the goons will attack more (and therefore make the game last longer) and get more of those bonus victory points as you work you way up to $11.

I still see it as a must-buy (when you have $6) over a gold unless you are scared additional goons will cause you to draw them in the same hand.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2011, 08:49:06 pm »
0

One obvious example is a Hunting Party deck with another good terminal silver in it. Also, decks which have lots of good terminal $5 attacks and you don't want more terminal collisions.
But there's actually a lot of cases where you never get to buying gold OR any other $6 - Gardens decks, vineyards decks, duke decks, etc. But yes, usually goons is good. I absolutely love it, but only gain it 87.6% of the time.
Actually, there are only 5 cards I gain more than 85% of games they're in (province itself is 6th at an even 85%): Island, Caravan, Hoard, Goons, Fishing Village. All-in-all, not actually what I would think are most powerful, most must-buy, or even what I'd buy most exactly, though I would expect all these to be quite high.

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 08:54:36 pm »
0

85%? Ambassador and Witch (in the absence of Mountebank). If both Witch and Mountebank are available I'll probably take one or the other with 85%+ frequency, though which to buy depends on the board. If only Mountebank is available? probably right around 85%, yeah.

edit: Well, my cr.com popular buys suggest some other things I gain at least 85% of the time: Fishing Village, Caravan, Mining Village, Familiar (just plum forgot about this one), Goons, Salvager, Warehouse. Mountebank is down around 82%. Other than Familiar I don't know that I'd put any of these in the same "must-buy" category as Ambassador and Witch. Fishing Village, Goons, and Salvager just tend to suit my playstyle. Caravan and Mining Village aren't so much "must-buys" as they are convenient do-no-harm cantrips to take with spare $4 buys. Warehouse is just a good general-use card that often eclipses Silver for spare $3 buys in the mid to late game. Tournament is on the list too but it's a very small sample size doubtless colored by the "ooh, shiny!" aspect of it.

So, final list: Ambassador, Witch, Familiar. Honorable mention to Mountebank.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 09:09:10 pm by guided »
Logged

hyku

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 09:10:47 pm »
0

One obvious example is a Hunting Party deck with another good terminal silver in it. Also, decks which have lots of good terminal $5 attacks and you don't want more terminal collisions.

But will any of these deck beat a deck that uses the actions available to play goons rather than any other card? If you have a deck of hunting parties/labs that draw the whole deck is there any card better than playing a goons for your only action? Now obviously its not a completely fair question because that would mean holding off buying any terminal action till you can get $6. A militia is strictly worse than a goon but you can buy it much sooner and use it earlier. But if you could randomly decide a single card you wanted to be in your deck instantly, I think a goons would be an obvious choice followed by mountebank.

The strength of the a goons deck comes from its flexibility. It can stall the game or end it whatever the goons player wants. If hes winning, he can end the game by emptying the provinces. If he wants the game to go longer, he can just keep making his engine better and buy more cards and more goons and win with vps. If the other player was dumb enough not to go goons they are forced to try to buy 8 provinces. But buying that many green cards will stall your deck and make it very difficult to finish any pile before the gradual vp gain of a goons deck surpasses them. Not too mention having some 3 card turns will be very painful.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 09:49:13 pm »
0

I looked back quickly through my games to find an interesting alternative strategy to goons. I've no idea when I played it and I know nothing about my opponent but it's a fun one anyway. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110201-165128-9ac294f7.html.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2011, 09:49:33 pm »
0

You don't need to sell me on Goons. It's one of my favourite cards - probably my second favourite. But it's really not so simple. For any of that second paragraph to be true, you need to be able to consistently have goons in your hand. And so to answer your question about what single card I'd want in my deck, it would probably be familiar, then witch, then mountebank, then possession, and then MAYBE goons (but maybe not... Golem? King's Court? Grand Market? Colony? Vineyards? Chapel? Ambassador? All possibly better. Maybe even wharf).
But the biggest point is that I don't think you understand the point of the Hunting Party deck, which is totally different from a lab-centered deck. The HP deck gets 1+ silver, exactly 1 gold, and 1 (or occasionally like 2) of a terminal silver or terminal-silver equivalent (bridge, or, in this deck, Horse Traders). It then buys a lot of Hunting parties, and sprints through the provinces, being able to reliably hit $8 every turn. Now is it worth it to wait and have Goons be your terminal silver? Well, it depends on what other terminal silvers are on the board.
So the curse-givers are more important, there are some specialized decks (let's not forget quick combos like Native Village/Bridge, some forms of native village/stash), non-province VP sources... it all adds up to around 15-20% of the time you don't want goons (given the opportunity cost). Of course, that still makes Goons one of the best cards in the game, just not unbelievably broken.

hyku

  • Pearl Diver
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 10:10:39 pm »
0

I'm actually not trying to sell you on goons. Quite the opposite, I'm trying to explain why i don't like it because its too good in my eyes. The curse givers are good, but once the curses are out they become dead/near useless. With good thrashing they are manageable. Curse givers are definitively priority one when there isn't an ambassador. But they fade out where goons remains very powerful all game. Maybe i dislike goons because I don't play them optimally and every time i try to win without goons it bites me in the ass.
Logged

Mean Mr Mustard

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 452
  • First to 5000 Isotropic wins
  • Respect: +118
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 10:24:19 pm »
0

Chapel, Caravan and Tournament head my % to buy list on CR.  Not qualifying this in any way, just sayin'.
Logged
Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 10:47:14 pm »
0

Interestingly, I don't know how many good players would classify Caravan as a must-buy, even though it's high up on our +% lists - it's more that there are extremely few decks where caravan isn't good, even if it's not so often needed.

Axe Knight

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Respect: +25
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2011, 10:55:24 pm »
0

This may be some overvaluing, but the only cards on my personal buy every time last are the three +2 Cards +1 Action---Lab, Alchemist, and Hunting Party.  I think it's a combination of wanting them, and not wanting my opponent to have more than me. 
Logged
An Axe Knight draws near!  Command?

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2011, 11:13:33 pm »
0

I'm actually not trying to sell you on goons. Quite the opposite, I'm trying to explain why i don't like it because its too good in my eyes. The curse givers are good, but once the curses are out they become dead/near useless. With good thrashing they are manageable.
You overrate Goons and underrate cursing attacks, unless you're not talking about 2p games?

There's no amount of trashing that makes Witch or Mountebank manageable. "If instead of establishing an insurmountable lead in deck quality my opponent goes off and takes a nap while I spend 5 turns cleaning out my deck, I totally shrug off cursing attacks."

Goons is basically a Militia/Monument hybrid if you can't build a real multi-Goons engine fast enough to score lots of points before the game ends. Which makes it good but not by any means "must-buy". On boards that support multi-Goons engines (which are rarer than people seem to think since they require at least 3 cards, and preferably a 4th card for trimming) it can be a dominant strategy, but then again, Torturer plus any Village can all too easily be a dominant strategy with no other helper cards, and Torturer is hardly in the "must-buy" category because of how weak it is in the absence of Villages.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 11:25:16 pm by guided »
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1493
  • Respect: +676
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2011, 04:59:40 am »
0

Wow. I have 17 cards above 85% (16 if we exclude Silver). I'm sure this has been tainted by my early newbie days and also my recent Cornucopia "ooh shiny" days, but here's a quick run down of my personal "must" buys:

Hunting Party - 100% - I expect this will stay up the top for some time. I mean, it's a case of ooh shiny, but it's actually good enough to be here, just maybe not at the 100% level.
Tournament - 100% - Definite case of ooh shiny. This should drop soon but I expect it will stay high simply because I don't want my opponent getting all the prizes >_<
Caravan - 98% - It's never a bad buy with a spare $4.
Fishing Village - 98% - What can I say? I am an action whore.
Nobles - 97.2% - This is a good card, but I definitely overrate it. I remember a game I played when I was very new to the game against a player rated quite high at the time. I won and afterwards he said "I can't believe you won taking a Province when there were Nobles left". Since he was ranked high this made me think Nobles were really good and should always be bought before Province (even though I won). I played with this in mind for a long time. The recent $6+ cards list has made me realise this isn't always the case, but it's still a strong card in some decks.
King's Court - 96.1% - What can I say? I am an action whore. My win rate with is 1.38 ± 0.19 (compared to Isotropic's average of 1.02 ± 0.00) , so I am fine with whoring this.
Festival - 95.1% - Why is this here? Man, I suck.
Market - 89.8% - A bit better than Festival but this should not be here.
Hamlet - 89.7% - Ooh shiny. It's pretty good support in most decks but you've gotta waste a buy on a $2 card.
Menagerie - 89.7% - Ooh shiny. Good when it works and I guess I buy so many different cards that it does work, so it's good. But is it good to buy so many different cards to begin with? Probably not.
Grand Market - 89.2% - It's a good card but getting it takes some work. I'm not sure that 89.2% of GM boards give you the tools to get the work done quickly and efficiently, so I probably overbuy this.
Throne Room - 88.9% - What can I say? I am an action whore.
Sea Hag - 87.6% - Hey, if I'm gonna be able to build up my massive action stack, I need to slow you down first.
Worker's Village - 87.5% - Erm...
Bridge - 85.7% - Who doesn't love buying all of the remaining VP cards in a single turn? What do you mean Bridge is terminal... Haven't you seen all of my villages and KCs?
Shanty Town - 85.7% - FML.
Logged

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3603
  • Respect: +6121
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2011, 07:51:44 am »
0

I wouldn't fret so much about some of your %ages.  Nobles is high for most people, and that's because you're often hitting $6 while just starting to buy Provinces.  It's too early for Duchies, but too late for Gold, so why not the Nobles?  Plus, as a self-described Action-chainer, it usually fits well into your decks unless you have a total lack of +Actions.

Walled Village - 100.0 - Yeah ... small sample size FTL
Familiar - 96.8 - And I still suck with it!
Chapel - 92.2 - Duh
Ambassador - 92.0 - Similar duh
Nobles - 91.2 - I have a weakness for Kingdom Victory cards in general
Great Hall - 90.7 - Combining my weakness for Kingdom Victory cards AND cheap non-terminals!
Tournament    - 88.5 - It's not a bad card even if you don't intend to compete for Prizes
Mountebank - 87.8 - Grr!
Grand Market - 87.3
Witch - 86.4
Logged

Anon79

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 264
  • Respect: +39
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2011, 08:19:26 am »
0

I notice that the vast majority of my 85%+ buys have a negative "effect with"... the ones that don't, excluding Gold and Silver, are:

Tournament (I'm lucky and often win Tournament vs Tournament matches, so sue me)
ISLAND (certainly not expecting this here!)
Mountebank

and that's it. Looks like I really need to stop automatically buying many of my favourite cards.
Logged

ARTjoMS

  • Bishop
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 109
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2011, 08:23:48 am »
0

Chapel - 100%
Ambassador -97,7%

Fishing village -92,1%


Grand market 58,8%; win rate with -1.08; win rate without - 1.24.
Nobles 40%; win rate with -1.17; win rate without - 1.24.
Are nothing like must buys.
Logged
Quote
When a friend of mine sees a girl he finds attractive, he remarks how he'd like to "Throne Room" or "King's Court" her.
- Axe Knight

''Especially regarding such an iconic (and somewhat infamous) name that is known as ARTjoMS.'' - shark_bait is boosting my ego.

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2011, 08:32:12 am »
0

The ones with positve Effect With are Bold

Walled Village   100.0  small sample size FTL ^^, Effect With -1.02
Worker's Village   100.0 Effect With -0.88
Mountebank    94.9.  Ok, here I'm not the only one
Wharf   93.2 Effect With -1.04, something I'm doing wrong...
Village   92.1 Effect With -0.63
Fishing Village   91.7 Effect With -3.80, we are starting to see a pattern in the villages...
Remake    91.7 Effect With +1.24
Hamlet    91.3 Effect with +0.6 . Seems to be the exception that proves the rule
Chapel    90.6
Mining Village   89.6 Effect With -something
Festival    89.4
Caravan    89.1 Effect With: 1.32 somehow surprised me. But Without also 0.92
Goons    88.9 Also not the only one
Menagerie   87.5
Ambassador   87.1  Should learn how to play it correctly.
Farming Village   86.7 negative Effect With. Someone surprised?
Bazaar    86.5
Great Hall   86.1
Market    86.1  Effect With: 2.31. This one also surprised me.
King's Court    86.0
Steward   86.0
Warehouse    85.1 Love it

All in all there seem to be too many on the lists, especially the Villages should go down. Perhaps im not playing BM+Smithy et.al.  often enough..
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2011, 09:19:39 am »
0

I've got Chapel at only 82.5% with a positive "effect without" (0.04). Just saying. I don't think it's even in the must-buy category on boards where it's the only trasher.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2011, 09:20:46 am »
0

So the most overbought card is the chapel perhaps? My purchase rate for chapel is 75% and I get a good win rate without it (1.43). I do tend to experiment though with alternative strategies whenever I see a chapel kingdom, something that other players don't really do.
Logged

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2011, 09:30:10 am »
0

Other than Familiar I don't know that I'd put any of these in the same "must-buy" category as Ambassador and Witch. Fishing Village, Goons, and Salvager just tend to suit my playstyle. Caravan and Mining Village aren't so much "must-buys" as they are convenient do-no-harm cantrips to take with spare $4 buys.

A lot of those other cards are less destructive than Ambassador and Witch. But I think, say, Fishing Village is a legit must-buy by the standards of this thread. It fuels other nastier cards so effectively that it itself becomes rather nasty.

I agree that Chapel is slightly (although only slightly) overrated as a must-buy.
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1493
  • Respect: +676
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2011, 09:37:24 am »
0

I think the thing with these lists is that there are two things that make cards "popular" buys. One of those things is them being a "must" buy which is what this thread is about. The other thing that causes a card to be bought in a lot of games is if it's a "this isn't going to hurt my deck and I've got nothing better to spend this money on" card for when you don't quite get to the level of $ that you want. This will realistically happen at least once each game, so you end up buying things like Caravan, Market and Villages, even though that's not exactly what you were aiming for.
Logged

painted_cow

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2011, 09:42:57 am »
0

Well, I got 20 cards above 85%, wont give numbers for all :-)

Chapel 97 %
Ambassador 92 %
Fishing Village 89 % -1.41 Effect with!
Mountebank 86 %   -1.51 Effect with! How I hate this card.
KC 86 %
Logged

DStu

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2627
  • Respect: +1490
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2011, 09:44:17 am »
0

I wasn't surprised that Market and Caravan is on the list, but that the EffectWith was so positive. With cards that you pick up because they don't hurt, you would somehow expect to have an effect +-0.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2011, 09:46:44 am »
0

But I think, say, Fishing Village is a legit must-buy by the standards of this thread. It fuels other nastier cards so effectively that it itself becomes rather nasty.
I can't really disagree with this. All on its own it's not a must-buy, but boards where it's highly useful are the rule rather than the exception. When I say it suits my playstyle, well, my effect with is 1.26 ;D
Logged

LetsGame

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
    • play-agricola.com
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2011, 12:43:44 pm »
0

I looked back quickly through my games to find an interesting alternative strategy to goons. I've no idea when I played it and I know nothing about my opponent but it's a fun one anyway. http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110201-165128-9ac294f7.html.
This is a nice engine DG. It bought all 8 provinces and was immune to Goons attacks.

NinjaBus

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2011, 02:13:10 pm »
0

Still a risky strategy, if your opponent didn't copper themselves to oblivion 1 powerhouse goons/tactician turn could've earned more points than all of the green cards in the game combined.
Logged

minced

  • Coppersmith
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
  • Respect: +1
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2011, 02:16:03 pm »
0

I'm surprised your opponent didn't use chapel to clear out some of that copper - 16 coppers?! wow.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2011, 02:23:05 pm »
0

Still a risky strategy, if your opponent didn't copper themselves to oblivion 1 powerhouse goons/tactician turn could've earned more points than all of the green cards in the game combined.
You'd basically need to be able to organize playing like 5 goons in a single hand... quite unlikely.

NinjaBus

  • Steward
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 26
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2011, 03:06:09 pm »
0

Still a risky strategy, if your opponent didn't copper themselves to oblivion 1 powerhouse goons/tactician turn could've earned more points than all of the green cards in the game combined.
You'd basically need to be able to organize playing like 5 goons in a single hand... quite unlikely.

It's set specific, but for that set it had worker village, lab, tactician and chapel trashing. It'd be easy.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2011, 03:15:26 pm »
0

Not fast enough. You need: 5 goons, 1 tactician, a chapel, 3 WVs, and enough time to set all that up by turn 18. Could you do it? Maybe. Not easily. Would you win with this strategy? Yeah, I think you would, 'cause you could start grabbing VP chips well before your one turn.

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2011, 03:43:43 pm »
0

Single-Tac is fast enough: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201107/21/game-20110721-122814-6db4a6a1.html

and so is double-Tac (which is how I would have approached it myself): http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201107/21/game-20110721-124050-47b61c12.html

Either deck could easily eclipse 50 points by turn 18 if the game was in danger of ending.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2011, 05:41:13 pm »
0

Warning: looooooooooooooong post ahead.

There are 18 cards I buy over 85 percent of the time, twelve of which are over 90.  That's a lot of cards, which indicates that perhaps I am more predictable than I ought to be. While there are no cards which are true "must-buys", a couple come close- and no I don't think Chapel comes closest.

#1 is Fishing Village, which I buy 96.9 percent of the time.  Considering it's the #1 bought card on Isotropic overall, that's not actually surprising.  By itself, it's not a must-buy, but there are vanishingly few situations where it isn't strictly better than Silver (since it gives that much money anyway in addition to the extra actions).  It's pretty close to being a must-buy. 

#2 through #5 are all Cornucopia cards!  Hunting Party at 95.5, Menagerie at 95, Tournament at 94.3, and Remake at 93.8.  There is definitely an "ooh shiny! I want the new cards!" effect going on, but it's actually a really small effect.  HP is so much better than Lab it's not funny- a stack of Hunting Parties doesn't just get you a huge hand each turn, it is especially good at enabling tricky combos or working with untrimmed decks.  There was a game a couple days ago where I skipped HP because I had a double-Tactician setup with trashing and didn't need any other card draw, but HP is just so good in such a wide range of situations.  I might even rank it above Minion, Torturer, and GS in a combined Top $5 Cards list.  Menagerie does no harm even in decks it's ill-suited for, and does so much good in favorable situations.  I probably overbuy it a little, but not much.  Prizes are powerful enough that I'd only consider skipping Tournament in games which are obviously suited to Goons or Gardens, and Remake is another card I probably overbuy but it's a good enough trasher that I'm willing to take it instead of Chapel half of the time.

#6 is Ambassador at 93.6 and honestly I'm not sure why it's that low.  If you're not going Gardens, or it's a Possession game with other strong trashing options, you need to go Ambassador and win that war, otherwise you're likely screwed.  I consider Ambassador to be the closest thing Dominion has to a true must-buy, and would absolutely rank it above Chapel as "best card in the game".  BTW I utterly hate Ambassador games.

#7 is Festival at 92.3, which seems way too high until you realize it's way too high for Isotropic at large, too- not surprising considering it's really just an overpriced Fishing Village with +Buy.  (Given how good FV is, this makes it not actually overpriced.)  I have a huge soft spot for Festival and do very, very well with it around, but wouldn't call it a must-buy.

Five other cards break the 90% barrier for me: Goons and Hamlet at 91.5, Nobles at 91.3, Chapel at 90.8 and Mountebank at 90.6.  Here we're finally getting to the sorts of cards which most people would call "must-buy".  Goons is pretty close- even if you can't build a Goons engine it's probably a good idea to make it your terminal; Mountebank is the baddest attack out there; Chapel is Chapel.  Hamlet is an ubercheap "do-no-harm" cantrip with surprisingly strong powers to enable chaining, and Nobles is a card I definitely overbuy but still think is important to grab your share of in most games.

The rest of the over-85 crowd include King's Court at 88.8, Apprentice at 87.3, Mining Village at 86.8, Minion  and Upgrade at 85.5, and Caravan at 85.4.  Of these cards, King's Court is the closest to a must-buy- unless you're playing a super-Cursy or Gardens game where nobody ever reaches $7, you're going to need some of these.  It's the most powerful card in the game, and its ability is arguably "unsafe at any price".  There was a period of time where I overbought Minion, but it's usually a must-buy except in certain well-defined circumstances.  Apprentice is rocket fuel for your deck, it's almost always worth buying.  Mining Village and Caravan do no harm and usually do a lot of good, and Upgrade is a card I massively overvalued for awhile.  Well, actually I'm not sure Caravan does a lot of good: I do horribly when I buy Caravan and it has by far my worst "Effect With" at -3.47.



There are some surprising omissions!  No Familiar, no Witch, no Province.  To be fair, Familiar and Province are right behind.  Familiar is kinda like Chapel: if it's out you need to get a card that does what it does, but you don't necessarily need that card itself.  If the other Potion pickings are slim, I'll pick a different curse-giver.  Witch I should buy more, but again it's not my favorite curse-giver: I'll grab a Mountebank first almost every time.  Given my play-style, I kinda expected Tactician and Peddler to be higher as well.  If you just looked at the past couple months Masquerade would also be up there, but I ignored it way too often when I was starting out here, so it has a hill to climb.  Not sure why Grand Market is so low either.



Alternatively, instead of looking at our Buy%, why don't we look at our "Win Rate Without" and pick the cards with the worst rate- the cards that, if we don't buy, we lose.   On this list, my champion is the humble Hamlet, which if I skip it leaves me with a terribad 0.71 Win Rate.  Hamlet!  Whoda thunk!  Second is Fishing Village at 0.78, which lends credence to the idea that these cheap cards aren't just "do-no-harm", that you in fact can't afford to ignore them and still win.  Third, at 0.89, is Trusty Steed, but prizes don't really count here.  Next is the Best Attack, Mountebank, at 0.92.  Fifth is Lighthouse at 0.95.  Yeah, Lighthouse.  Which is surprising until you realize it's a Silver's worth of buying power for $2, and has the strongest Reaction effect in the game.  Perhaps it is really a must-buy when attacks are around, as opposed to Moat and Secret Chamber which are terrible cards that should usually be avoided even when attacks are around. 

There are three other cards where I only break even when I skip them.  Two of them, Chapel and Ambassador, should be no surprise.  The third is Woodcutter.  Why I do so poorly when I skip Woodcutter is an utter mystery, probably even more so than why I suck at Caravans.

All in all, the top 10 cards I consider closest to being must-buys, in rough order:
Ambassador
King's Court
Mountebank
Fishing Village
Goons
Familiar
Hunting Party
Tournament
Chapel- yes, all the way down here at number 9.
Hamlet

The next cards looking in would be Witch, Masquerade, and, I dunno, Grand Market?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 05:48:15 pm by chwhite »
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

Axe Knight

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 170
  • Respect: +25
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2011, 06:25:28 pm »
0

Another thing to keep in mind is that what makes a card a "must-buy" is relative to the other cards in the kingdom.  The reason I always go for the +2 Cards +1 Action cards is mostly due to the fact that they work well in any kingdom.  But there are some cards people consider "must-buys" that are only such when the kingdom supports it.  This is the same criticism I have of the list of "best" cards or the list of Best Openings on councilroom.  Helpful overall, but you have to consider the entire situation. 
Logged
An Axe Knight draws near!  Command?

painted_cow

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 151
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2011, 08:20:48 pm »
0

Alternatively, instead of looking at our Buy%, why don't we look at our "Win Rate Without" and pick the cards with the worst rate- the cards that, if we don't buy, we lose.   On this list, my champion is the humble Hamlet, which if I skip it leaves me with a terribad 0.71 Win Rate.  Hamlet!  Whoda thunk!  Second is Fishing Village at 0.78, which lends credence to the idea that these cheap cards aren't just "do-no-harm", that you in fact can't afford to ignore them and still win.  Third, at 0.89, is Trusty Steed, but prizes don't really count here.  Next is the Best Attack, Mountebank, at 0.92.  Fifth is Lighthouse at 0.95.  Yeah, Lighthouse.  Which is surprising until you realize it's a Silver's worth of buying power for $2, and has the strongest Reaction effect in the game.  Perhaps it is really a must-buy when attacks are around, as opposed to Moat and Secret Chamber which are terrible cards that should usually be avoided even when attacks are around. 

Imo these numbers dont say much. At least on my lists these cards with "bad win rates without" have a really low number of occassions. the relative numbers with +- are high. Therefor I would not give them much credit.

But your conclusive list seems good to me, at least cards, not excact placement (which does not matter anyway).
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2011, 08:23:47 pm »
0

chwhite, nice post, but I have one big issue to take. KC is nowhere near a must buy.

krawhitham

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 58
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2011, 09:34:29 pm »
0

I'm a little late to the party to suggest this but...

The question probably needs dividing into:

1) Cards that I must buy 1 (or a small number) of
2) Cards that I must buy lots of

So I would put Caravan into the 'buying lots of' catagory.
Logged

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1493
  • Respect: +676
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2011, 03:51:07 am »
0

I'm a little late to the party to suggest this but...

The question probably needs dividing into:

1) Cards that I must buy 1 (or a small number) of
2) Cards that I must buy lots of

So I would put Caravan into the 'buying lots of' catagory.

Caravan is not a must buy. Caravan is a "I have $4 and nothing better to buy" buy. Go into any random Caravan game and play with a strategy of rushing as many Caravans as possible before doing anything else. You will lose.
Logged

Davio

  • 2012 Dutch Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4787
  • Respect: +3412
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2011, 05:36:02 am »
0

Disclaimer: I am only Level 28 at Isotropic, so obviously past the beginner stage, but not yet up there with the great ones, so take this for what it's worth.

My Top 10:

1. Tournament - 95,6%
Who doesn't like an early Peddler? It's sad to see that most setups with Tournament are generally races for Trusty Steed and the others. It loses some value in Colony, but I've seen many a game skip Colonies and go for Provinces instead, just because of Tournament.

2. Laboratory - 95,2%
What can I say? It's a well known gem. It helps almost every deck.

3. Mountebank - 94,3%
My view on Curses: I'd rather give them than get them. Mountebank stays useful when Curses are gone, dealing Coppers.

4. Chapel - 93,9%
The best $2 in the game, if it would have cost $3, it might even have been the best $3.

5. Mining Village - 93,7%
A personal favorite, I see it as an early attempt at using a Gold (trashing it and drawing a Copper with it). I trash this quite aggressively as is advised.

6 Menagerie - 91,8%
I'm surprised that this percentage is so high, but then again I'm not. I generally buy this if I strike out with just $3 and I feel I have enough Silvers already. It also effectively counters some attacks like Ghost Ship and Militia (Goons).

7. Fishing Village - 90,0%
I wonder if I maybe like this card too much, but as with all duration cards, the fact that it isn't in your hand the second time helps a lot.

8. Caravan - 88,6%
Right up there with Laboratory.

9. Farming Village - 87,2%
Hey, another Village, what do you know!

10. Silver - 86,4%
Okay, this one doesn't really count.

Honorable mention: King's Court - 84,4%
Obviously only as good as the other actions


Of these 10, I think only Tournament, Mountebank, Laboratory and Chapel are must buys for me. The other cards are more like, "Okay, I have $X and I want a card that doesn't hurt my deck."

I have Ambassador at only 76,1%, I wonder why it's so low. Maybe I have disregarded this too much in the earlier levels, this has become a must buy now though; being on the wrong end of the seesaw is no fun.


Worst 5:

5. Library - 5,3%
I probably undervalue this too much.

4. Adventurer - 5,1%
I'd buy it more if it cost $5 or $4, maybe.. with $6 I generally rather buy a Gold.

3. Cutpurse - 4,1%
What? I actually bought this?

2. Explorer - 3,8%
When you have enough Provinces to show, it's likely time to buy Duchies instead of Explorers.

1. Bureaucrat - 3,2%
Must have come up in the phase when I wanted to try every card.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 05:57:28 am by Davio »
Logged

BSG: Cagprezimal Adama
Mage Knight: Arythea

Thisisnotasmile

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1493
  • Respect: +676
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2011, 05:52:01 am »
0

I'm surprised Cutpurse is in your 5 least bought cards! Brilliant early-game terminal silver and also combos well with Mountebank (They're gonna have a lot of Coppers, play Cutpurses and they can't even spend them). Also, Bureaucrat is criminally underrated. My bottom 5:

Fortune Teller - 11.4% - Obviously a bad card. Good in some situations though.
Contraband - 10.3% - I'd much rather have a Gold.
Explorer - 9.6% - By the time you want it, it's too late to buy it.
Stash - 9.3% - Seriously, I hate this card. It's minimally better than Silver. Sometimes I spend a $5 buy on Silver when Stash is available just so I don't have to mess about reordering every time I shuffle. I need a very good reason to buy Stash.
Counting House - 4.3% - Situational. It's good when the right situations present themselves, they just don't present themselves very much at all.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2011, 09:06:09 am »
0

Caravan is not a must buy. Caravan is a "I have $4 and nothing better to buy" buy. Go into any random Caravan game and play with a strategy of rushing as many Caravans as possible before doing anything else. You will lose.
I'm mostly in agreement with you--Caravan is a "might as well buy" rather than a "must buy"--but let me do say that a pure Caravan rush can work. The dream board is probably something like Caravan/Ironworks/Worker's Village/Workshop/Bank, opening IW/Workshop and focusing 100% on getting Caravans until the pile is empty.

I've definitely a couple of times laughed off Caravan and let somebody get 8 or 9 of them quickly and then gotten crushed by superior hand-size. This certainly doesn't apply to every Caravan board, but it can happen from time to time.


edit: Just read Davio's post. If you think Library and Cutpurse are among the worst cards in the game... can you and I play a whole bunch of games with those cards please? ;D You've underrated Bureaucrat as well, but while it's a good card on a lot of boards it's rarely a great card. I don't buy it enough, myself.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 09:08:43 am by guided »
Logged

rattenversammlung

  • Herbalist
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2011, 10:20:02 am »
0

While I appreciate what Cutpurse can do in a game with no way to remove the copper, and especially in games where there is no good 5$ card or 4$ card where cutpurse can steal 2$ worth of an opponent's hand as early as turn 3, I have yet to find use for Bureaucrat outside a gardens game (where both parts are valuable) or as mediocre hate against Nobles, Islands and Barons (which can also backfire as well if you think about it)

by the way: (effect_w minus effect_wo)(wRate_w minus wRate_ wo)
Chapel 100% (-0.34)(+0.23)
Fishy 95.3% (+2.13)(+0.40)
Tourney 94.0% (-1.21)(+0.04)
Remake 92.6% (-0.04)(-0.22!)
Caravan 92.4% (-1.08)(-0.10!)
So except for Fishy I overbuy all of these
for reference: wRate copper available: 1.27

Thief 2.4% ()(-0.61)
Adventurer 3.0% ()(-0.49)
Navigator 3.5% ()(-0.39)
Counting House 4.3% ()(-0.50)
Bureaucrat 4.7% ()(-0.82)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 10:25:19 am by rattenversammlung »
Logged

AJD

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3292
  • Shuffle iT Username: AJD
  • Respect: +4434
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2011, 11:46:38 am »
0

I've sometimes found Bureaucrat to work well as the $4 in a chapel opening, but sometimes not.... On the one hand, there's the risk of clashing terminals, but on the other hand you can trash all your copper without having to worry about where your silver is going to be coming from.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2011, 12:44:20 pm »
0

My least-bought cards:

#1- Thief at 4.3%.  This is shocking.  Not that Thief is at number 1, but that it ended up in my deck this often!  I mean, seriously, Thief is a horrible card that is basically never good in any situation, and I knew that even when I started playing Isotropic!  Digging deeper, it seems I gained it as often as I bought it, so perhaps it's twice as high as it would be without opponents' Swindling.  And maybe I used it to push my Fairgrounds to 6 or something.  But I had to have legitimately bought it a couple times, and I really have no idea why.

#2 is Explorer at 6.2%.  I hate this card.  It gives you combo-killing Silver (gag me) and unlike Bureaucrat you can't usually open with it.  It's probably a little better than I give it credit for, and I should try it in a Duke strategy someday, but really it just sucks.

#3, speak of the devil, is Bureaucrat at 8.7%.  I buy it with Gardens and Dukes, and leave it otherwise.

#4 is Saboteur at 8.9%.  It has its niches (add Minion and KC and it's suddenly killer) but usually I'd rather let it sit there.  Not as bad as Explorer.

#5 is Treasure Map at 10.1%, which if anything I underbuy.  I tend to avoid it even with enablers, and that's cost me a few games.  What can I say, I prefer to get my coin from Actions, and TM is too high-variance for my taste.

Other cards I buy less than 15 percent of the time: Adventurer at 10.5; it's the one legitimately bad 6+ and it's probably the reason I had such a hard time grasping Venture.  Has a niche in Chapel-Big Money and that's mostly it.  Outpost at 11.7%- random 3-card hands usually don't work!  Fun with Minion or Tactician though.  Counting House at 11.9%; Coppersmith at 13.4%.  Counting House is kinda like the Spy in Stratego, in that it is a devastatingly effective counter to the two worst attacks in the game (Mountebank and Ambassador), but mostly useless everywhere else.  I do a very good job of winning on the rare occasions I buy it.  Coppersmith is a much different beast, again it's mostly useless but has a niche with Apothecary or some mega-turn combos.  Rounding out the hall of shame is the eminently forgettable Stash at 13.8%.

This list does not entirely square with my conception of what cards are the "worst", in particular Moat and Secret Chamber are worse than most of the cards here, but they're cheap enough that I get them more than the $5s on this list.  Transmute and Smugglers are also kinda horrible but it took me awhile to figure that out.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 01:44:47 pm by chwhite »
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2011, 01:26:04 pm »
0

While I appreciate what Cutpurse can do in a game with no way to remove the copper, and especially in games where there is no good 5$ card or 4$ card where cutpurse can steal 2$ worth of an opponent's hand as early as turn 3, I have yet to find use for Bureaucrat outside a gardens game (where both parts are valuable) or as mediocre hate against Nobles, Islands and Barons (which can also backfire as well if you think about it)
Bureaucrat is quite strong in Big Money-ish decks in general. Top-decking a Silver is good in the final stretch when every Duchy counts, and dumping Estates back on an opponent's deck in the early going is a significant effect. When you call dumping a card back onto the deck "minor hate" you reveal that you underestimate just how bad it is to lose one card out of your 5-card hand! Ditto when you poo-poo the early-game effects of Cutpurse. Losing $1 out of two hands early in the game (even if that's all Cutpurse's attack ever accomplished) is a big deal.

Neither of these are elite cards, but to call them bad cards belies significant gaps in strategic understanding.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2011, 01:36:45 pm »
0

While I appreciate what Cutpurse can do in a game with no way to remove the copper, and especially in games where there is no good 5$ card or 4$ card where cutpurse can steal 2$ worth of an opponent's hand as early as turn 3, I have yet to find use for Bureaucrat outside a gardens game (where both parts are valuable) or as mediocre hate against Nobles, Islands and Barons (which can also backfire as well if you think about it)
Bureaucrat is quite strong in Big Money-ish decks in general. Top-decking a Silver is good in the final stretch when every Duchy counts, and dumping Estates back on an opponent's deck in the early going is a significant effect. When you call dumping a card back onto the deck "minor hate" you reveal that you underestimate just how bad it is to lose one card out of your 5-card hand! Ditto when you poo-poo the early-game effects of Cutpurse. Losing $1 out of two hands early in the game (even if that's all Cutpurse's attack ever accomplished) is a big deal.

Neither of these are elite cards, but to call them bad cards belies significant gaps in strategic understanding.

I tend to avoid Bureaucrat because I dislike strategies that rely on lots of Silver- I recognize that it can be better than most people think it is, but it doesn't fit my usual play style.

100 percent agreement on Cutpurse, though.  It's a solid opener that can do almost as much damage as Militia, and I don't get why people dislike it so much.
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2011, 01:42:15 pm »
0

Yeah, high-Silver strategies aren't really my style either. I'll venture to force an action-chain strategy out of just about any board with non-terminals, even when it's probably not the right move.
Logged

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2011, 01:46:14 pm »
0

100 percent agreement on Cutpurse, though.  It's a solid opener that can do almost as much damage as Militia, and I don't get why people dislike it so much.

I think the praise "almost as much damage as Militia" suggests why: it's pretty much straight worse than another card costing the same. The only time it can do anything extra is if you already have a handsize reducer to play before it. (EDIT: Okay, in the early game your opponent could have a hand with two estates. The point about scaling is still valid.) And it scales terribly to the late game, when Militia is still quite effective. I'll open with it if there are no other good 4s, but it's definitely a weaker card, and possibly the weakest 4 I'd open with.

Ultimately it seems most of the discussion about what is bad just revolves around how often certain types of situations come up. I'd agree with you, for example, that Outpost is kind of a crappy card. But in the situations where it becomes good (e.g. decks with huge reliable draw like Scrying Pool + trashers, no +buy or additional gain possible) it becomes a quite important card indeed. Its badness is just that those situations are pretty rare.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2011, 01:59:21 pm »
0

100 percent agreement on Cutpurse, though.  It's a solid opener that can do almost as much damage as Militia, and I don't get why people dislike it so much.

I think the praise "almost as much damage as Militia" suggests why: it's pretty much straight worse than another card costing the same. The only time it can do anything extra is if you already have a handsize reducer to play before it. (EDIT: Okay, in the early game your opponent could have a hand with two estates. The point about scaling is still valid.) And it scales terribly to the late game, when Militia is still quite effective. I'll open with it if there are no other good 4s, but it's definitely a weaker card, and possibly the weakest 4 I'd open with.

Ultimately it seems most of the discussion about what is bad just revolves around how often certain types of situations come up. I'd agree with you, for example, that Outpost is kind of a crappy card. But in the situations where it becomes good (e.g. decks with huge reliable draw like Scrying Pool + trashers, no +buy or additional gain possible) it becomes a quite important card indeed. Its badness is just that those situations are pretty rare.


But Militia is really good!  Sure I'll probably buy Militia instead if both are on the board, but that's no slam against Cutpurse.  It's a bit like saying I'll buy Ambassador instead of Masquerade- doesn't mean Masquerade is a bad card, far from it.  Alternatively, it's like saying Pirate Ship is good because it's better than Thief for the same cost.  No, it still sucks, just not as hard.

And there are plenty of $4s which I'd consider opening with, but would rather take a Cutpurse:  Baron, for instance.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:05:43 pm by chwhite »
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2011, 02:05:25 pm »
0

Militia is generally stronger than Cutpurse in 2p games, though Cutpurse is still good on its own. In 4p games Cutpurse is just evil.
Logged

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2011, 02:09:49 pm »
0

And there are plenty of $4s which are I will consider opening with, but would rather take a Cutpurse:  Baron, for instance.

I'd be curious to see the rest of this list. I think Baron > Cutpurse, usually, but it's also pretty close to the bottom of the totem pole.

Without an exhaustive list of the 4s, I might be missing some here, but openers I'd prefer on average to Cutpurse in no particular order: Sea Hag, Remake, Salvager, Tournament, Caravan, Militia, Baron, Young Witch, Moneylender. I think Cutpurse generally beats the $4 Villages and Throne Room, and it's probably better than Feast on average, but that's about it.

I'd also prefer Cutpurse to Bureaucrat on average, but I basically never open with Bureaucrat. Coppersmith I'd have to think about.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:13:21 pm by ackack »
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2011, 02:25:05 pm »
0

And there are plenty of $4s which are I will consider opening with, but would rather take a Cutpurse:  Baron, for instance.

I'd be curious to see the rest of this list. I think Baron > Cutpurse, usually, but it's also pretty close to the bottom of the totem pole.

Without an exhaustive list of the 4s, I might be missing some here, but openers I'd prefer on average to Cutpurse in no particular order: Sea Hag, Remake, Salvager, Tournament, Caravan, Militia, Baron, Young Witch, Moneylender. I think Cutpurse generally beats the $4 Villages and Throne Room, but it's probably better than Feast on average.

I'd agree on most of those except for Baron, which is a lot worse than people give it credit for. Sure, it ups your chance at an early Gold, but if you get it in a hand with four Coppers you are just screwed, and that happens a lot. I'd add Smithy and probably Bishop, too.  Other folks might add Envoy too but I have an irrational hatred of that card.    Thing is, though, there are a lot more $4 cards out there that you're forgetting about.  Some of them are really powerful but often worse than Cutpurse as an opener: e.g. Tournament, Conspirator.  Some of them are situational: e.g. Ironworks, Potion.  Some don't make any sense as openers: the Villages, Throne Room, Spy.  Some are okay openers but I'd rather have Cutpurse: Remodel, Island, and Baron.  Actually, I do horribly with Caravan and would probably take a Cutpurse over Caravan b/c of that, too. 

Probably the worst $4 I'd open with (not counting strange setups which favor normally-bad cards like Bureaucrat and Talisman) would be Navigator.

EDIT:  Councilroom says I buy Cutpurse about 47 percent of the time, and do slightly better than average whether I buy it or not (1.28 Win Rate With, 1.27 Without).  So, it's not an elite opener but it's pretty good, and I feel comfortable with that evaluation.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:33:56 pm by chwhite »
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

Elyv

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
  • Respect: +15
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2011, 02:37:46 pm »
0

Some are okay openers but I'd rather have Cutpurse: Remodel, Island, and Baron.
Can you talk about Island as an opener? I just tend to assume that it's almost automatically worse than silver, since it's essentially a one-shot trasher that gets rid of one card. I just don't really feel it's worth it as an opening buy.
Logged

chwhite

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1065
  • Respect: +442
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2011, 02:54:46 pm »
0

Some are okay openers but I'd rather have Cutpurse: Remodel, Island, and Baron.
Can you talk about Island as an opener? I just tend to assume that it's almost automatically worse than silver, since it's essentially a one-shot trasher that gets rid of one card. I just don't really feel it's worth it as an opening buy.

No, it's not a great opener.  But if there isn't much other trashing and the $5s are underwhelming, I'll sometimes give it a shot.  The Best Openers list indicates that it's a good partner to Swindler, which seems to make some sense. 
Logged
To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

Elyv

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
  • Respect: +15
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2011, 03:21:38 pm »
0

Some are okay openers but I'd rather have Cutpurse: Remodel, Island, and Baron.
Can you talk about Island as an opener? I just tend to assume that it's almost automatically worse than silver, since it's essentially a one-shot trasher that gets rid of one card. I just don't really feel it's worth it as an opening buy.

No, it's not a great opener.  But if there isn't much other trashing and the $5s are underwhelming, I'll sometimes give it a shot.  The Best Openers list indicates that it's a good partner to Swindler, which seems to make some sense. 
I can kind of see it, but I think I'd usually prefer to open Swindler/Silver.
Logged

guided

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 940
  • Respect: +94
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2011, 03:27:53 pm »
0

Council Room's winningness data suggests Island is a good-not-great opener, but while I can find arguments for opening with it I don't find them terribly convincing. I do kind of trust the data though, even to the point where I will sometimes open Island just because I've seen that data! I think the 2 VPs is key to its power as an early buy.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2011, 03:33:23 pm »
0

Quote
Can you talk about Island as an opener?
I can remember a post on boardgamegeek suggesting that islands were an incredibly overpowered opener that won every game. I'm guessing it was a case of group thinking: if they all buy islands then someone who bought an island will win the game.
Logged

timchen

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 704
  • Shuffle iT Username: allfail
  • Respect: +234
    • View Profile
Re: Must-Buy Cards?
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2011, 03:58:37 pm »
0

The island is a good opener when there is no other trashing available. Think this way: with light trashing, a single trash is the same as having a lab in your deck! It is true that it only works one shuffle later and behaves worse than a curse for the immediate shuffle (since you need an action to get rid of it); nevertheless you get 2 VP out from it and it only costs $4.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]
 

Page created in 0.083 seconds with 20 queries.