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Author Topic: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament  (Read 20290 times)

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greatexpectations

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2012, 01:22:12 pm »
0

I seem to have a different perception of how the populace is playing isotropic than you do.  You may be right.  I still don't think tablets count because Cartographer doesn't work on tablets so those players are already playing with a hand behind their back, they already cannot truly compete.  But if lots of people share computers and stuff, yeah maybe.

no, i think we both make similar assumptions about how the general population plays on isotropic. but as long as their are legitimate reasons why people will be unwilling or unable to use the extension (aside from any and all game related issues) i just do not see requiring everyone to use the extension as a viable solution.

as i said before, turn your efforts to building a case to present to doug and funsockets.  requiring use of the extension just doesn't seem to make sense, especially when a sizable portion of our population seems to have issue with it in the first place.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2012, 01:29:16 pm »
+1

Veto mode is not a variant.

Sorry - this is true. 

Veto mode vs. full random vs. starting player chooses the table are all equally legal methods of play.  Of course the tournament should specify how the tables are constructed - and all players should abide by the tournament rules.
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Insomniac

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2012, 03:26:20 pm »
0

Veto mode is not a variant.

Sorry - this is true. 

Veto mode vs. full random vs. starting player chooses the table are all equally legal methods of play.  Of course the tournament should specify how the tables are constructed - and all players should abide by the tournament rules.

Did I miss veto mode being in the rules somewhere?  :o
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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2012, 03:31:15 pm »
+1

Veto mode is not a variant.

Sorry - this is true. 

Veto mode vs. full random vs. starting player chooses the table are all equally legal methods of play.  Of course the tournament should specify how the tables are constructed - and all players should abide by the tournament rules.

Did I miss veto mode being in the rules somewhere?  :o
The rules say you can pick your kingdom however you want.
Veto is a way.
Ergo, it's fine.

Kirian

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2012, 03:34:19 pm »
+1

Playing on isotropic is a dominion variant

I have to disagree; other than the technicality of the missing face-up discard pile, everything else is exactly the same in terms of gameplay.  Looking at the official rules, I find this:

"The player places any cards that are in his play area... and any cards remaining in his hand onto his Discard pile."

There's actually no mention of placing the cards in hand on top of the cards in play.  Perhaps it was clarified in a later rulebook, or DXV has clarified elsewhere?  I'm uncertain.  If this isn't technically a rule, then the order of discards wouldn't matter, and you can see in the log what cards were played last turn, which would be legal for your opponent to put on top of the discard.

Quote
Starting hands identical is a variant

Indeed.  It's common in online tournaments, but seems extremely unlikely in face-to-face tournament play.

Quote
Veto mode is a variant

As you've already noted, this is wrong, but I thought I'd provide the quote from the official rules for context:

"In later games, players can choose the 10 Kingdom cards using any method they agree on."

Quote
Iso tracker is a variant
Dr. Held's Point Tracker is a variant.

Without a doubt.

Quote
Rotating starting position is also a variant from the official rules.

Yes, though it's really easy to argue that, in a tournament setting, whether online or face-to-face, it should be at the least a necessary variant.  In a setting where players don't play a series of games against one another--instead playing games with multiple groups, which will be common in face-to-face tournaments--having the tournament director determine seating order at each table isn't a variant.

----

Personally, I think it's up to the tournament director to make the rules and set them in stone at the start of the tournament.  If I don't like the rules, I don't have to participate.  As a TD, I intend in the future to use the following, and for the following reasons:

(1) In one series, the players may change individual game rules in any way they all agree to.  If players cannot agree on a particular point, default rules below automatically
---- It would be truly unenforceable not to do so if all players agree, because who's going to complain?  These discussions need to happen at time of play, however, so that if there is a disagreement and a player refuses to abide by the default, screenshots can be taken and someone can be disqualified.
(2) Rules are default Dominion rules unless otherwise specified below.  This means neither the isotropic nor the drheld point counter is to be used, and starting hands are not identical, except as in Rule 1.
---- This is as close as one can get on Isotropic to the official rules.  I'll make this the default despite previous arguments from me that identical starting hands ought to be a standard variant in tournament play.
(3) Seats will rotate in a manner determined by the TD, in such a manner as to provide maximum fairness for a competitive series.
---- This is necessary as a tournament variant, and the Dominion rules do not specify any tournament rules.  The official seat-change rules are quite obviously intended for casual play.  Granted, since I'll never run anything other than a 2P tournament online, this shouldn't matter too much here, as that order is semi-trivial.  I've discussed a tennis-like method in another thread, and in my next tournament I will see how the participants feel about such a method, but other wise the official rules can be followed with only the most minor of detriments.
(4) Other point and card counting methods or memory aids are explicitly prohibited, other than your brain and your mouth.
---- Yes, it's unenforceable.  That doesn't make it an unreasonable rule.  Yes, it expects goodwill from all players.  Personal ethics ought to trump desire to win a tournament.  If it doesn't for you, well, frankly, in the end, cheaters never prosper.  That's on your conscience if you can't follow a simple rule.  Quite obviously thinking is important, and in an online tournament, speaking aloud only to oneself is not different.

But, of course, this is just for my tournaments.  Other TDs should certainly be welcome to use different settings, and players should be welcome to participate or not as they desire.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2012, 03:38:39 pm »
0

All the images in the rule-book have the discard pile face-up, if nothing else.

Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2012, 04:03:34 pm »
0

Visible discard pile makes a difference for times you would discard other than cleanup.
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Davio

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2012, 04:19:13 pm »
0

I think I've read something about concealing unplayed cards in the rulebook.

So you basically decide what the visible top card of your discard pile will be and slide everything under there.
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ShuffleLuck

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2012, 05:40:15 pm »
+1

I would like to second the sentiment that there should be some kind of codified standard for online tournaments, which tournament organizers can simply link to and say "we will use this", or "we will use this, with the following changes." The DS.com website seems like a natural place to host such a standard. Maybe we just call it the "DS.com online tournament ruleset.", and then other people will naturally link to it and use it.

My personal preference regarding point/card counters in tournaments on ISO is that the official ISO point tracker be required, pen and paper be allowed, and all other memory aids (including PCE) be disallowed. My reasoning is that I want a level playing field, balancing the official rules of dominion with the limits of what is enforceable. I also don't especially enjoy keeping all the cards in memory, so I find that having some kind of automated point counter is more fun and relaxing.
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DG

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2012, 05:49:57 pm »
0

The official points counter is on unless all players in match agree to play without it. All unofficial software that monitors deck contents,  kingdom information, or other game data should be prohibited under tournament rules. This would include unofficial pointer counters  but exclude video recordings or broadcasts as long as they were not used to gain information or advice during play.
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O

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2012, 05:51:32 pm »
0

The official points counter is on unless all players in match agree to play without it. All unofficial software that monitors deck contents,  kingdom information, or other game data should be prohibited under tournament rules. This would include unofficial pointer counters  but exclude video recordings or broadcasts as long as they were not used to gain information or advice during play.

There's always a rewind button. If PCE is disabled, upon request or not, I should still have the right to request nobody record my game with video.
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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2012, 06:05:01 pm »
0

The official points counter is on unless all players in match agree to play without it. All unofficial software that monitors deck contents,  kingdom information, or other game data should be prohibited under tournament rules. This would include unofficial pointer counters  but exclude video recordings or broadcasts as long as they were not used to gain information or advice during play.

There's always a rewind button. If PCE is disabled, upon request or not, I should still have the right to request nobody record my game with video.

I can see augments for not allowing broadcasts of your games.
Even if I disagree.
But I have trouble seeing any reason not to allow a player to record themselves for personal use.

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O

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2012, 06:11:11 pm »
+1

The official points counter is on unless all players in match agree to play without it. All unofficial software that monitors deck contents,  kingdom information, or other game data should be prohibited under tournament rules. This would include unofficial pointer counters  but exclude video recordings or broadcasts as long as they were not used to gain information or advice during play.

There's always a rewind button. If PCE is disabled, upon request or not, I should still have the right to request nobody record my game with video.

I can see augments for not allowing broadcasts of your games.
Even if I disagree.
But I have trouble seeing any reason not to allow a player to record themselves for personal use.

Because they're recording a log of the game... before the game is even finished. So they could theoretically use it to gain an unfair advantage by playing back their recording to serve as a midgame gamelog.

Arguments just as valid as any argument relating to the PCE.
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popsofctown

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2012, 09:42:47 pm »
0

The official points counter is on unless all players in match agree to play without it. All unofficial software that monitors deck contents,  kingdom information, or other game data should be prohibited under tournament rules. This would include unofficial pointer counters  but exclude video recordings or broadcasts as long as they were not used to gain information or advice during play.

There's always a rewind button. If PCE is disabled, upon request or not, I should still have the right to request nobody record my game with video.

I'm lost.  Why not just trust them not to rewind, the way you're trusting them not to use an invisible point tracker??
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blueblimp

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2012, 10:04:20 pm »
0

IMO, it's perfectly reasonable for tournament organizers to require participants to consent to video recordings of the games, because it's promotion for the tournament. It's not like the people themselves are even being video-recorded, just their gameplay.
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yudantaiteki

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2012, 12:03:42 am »
+1

Simple point counter: I don't care either way; I think it changes the strategy when you can see the score but I have fun playing with it that way too.

Point/card extension: Ban with extreme prejudice.

After seeing some of the discussion I want to explain my possibly-contradictory-seeming choices.

There are two reasons why I think the simple point counter is OK but the PCE is bad.  (1) The SPC is built into Isotropic; anyone who plays on Isotropic can use it, and it's not very hard to find out about its existence.  The PCE, on the other hand, requires a specific browser with a specific extension, and many people may not even know that it exists or what it does.  This is the most important reason for me.  (2) Keeping track of points is pretty easy to do yourself with pen and paper while you play, whereas keeping track of exact deck contents takes more effort that many, perhaps most, people will not bother with.

Having said that, people should feel free to make whatever tournament rules they want, provided they're up front about them.  I personally would not want to play in a PCE tournament, though.
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questioneer

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2012, 01:35:24 am »
0

As and Organizer and a Player just get rid of the point/card counters altogether- play the game with your brain alone not a crutch.
 :)
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Personman

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2012, 01:49:21 am »
+4

I don't want to drag any of the drama from the locked thread into this one, and to that end I won't be posting in this thread more than once.

I just wanted to publicly say how awesome Donald's Mafia post was, and that if you haven't made it to page 18 of the other thread, you should go read it. It's really quite something. I laughed for a really long time.

I'd also like to thank samath for pointing out and appreciating game 4 (video if you prefer) of the finals. I was really proud of that :D

I think you all know my opinions on the topic of this thread, so I won't restate them. I hope that despite my differences with many of you, I can continue to be an accepted and constructive member of this community in unrelated ways. I will certainly never do anything but absolutely toe the line in any future events (and I probably won't participate in any for quite a while anyway).
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samath

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2012, 03:38:48 am »
+3

I have to disagree; other than the technicality of the missing face-up discard pile, everything else is exactly the same in terms of gameplay.

There are several other differences, actually:
  • "Waiting for reactions" tells you they have a reaction card.
  • "Plays two silvers" tells you they don't have any more standard currency. You can't hide the fact that you really overpaid for that province except by playing cards one by one, which already looks suspicious.
  • If they have more than one green, Bureaucrat has to wait for them to decide which one to put back (really useful for bureaucrat abuse because you know they have another).
  • Discarding, if there's a pause they'll know that you have tunnel(s) to reveal, even if you didn't want to reveal any.
  • Lookout draws three coppers, and it goes really quick -- so others notice.
  • Similarly, 5-copper hands take no time from the militia.
  • Someone else has a province to block your tournament, and you get to find out who it is. Maybe that changes what prize you get.
Can anyone think of any more? Yeah they won't affect a lot of games, but sometimes there is a way you can take advantage of the extra information online.
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Davio

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2012, 05:25:18 am »
+1

Well, to no surprise, online Dominion is much more different from offline Dominion than the purists would like to believe.

Also: Trader, even on playing Governor and dealing out a Silver it pauses for no reason other than the old Iso's "we want to follow the rules as strictly as we can" position.
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rrenaud

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Re: What can be tracked for advantage?
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2012, 10:17:31 am »
+7

I am all for use everything in the kitchen sink approach to Dominion.  As long as your tools are publically available and you disclose you are using them, it's kosher to me.

It's not about gaining an advantage.  If it was about gaining an advantage, I wouldn't have encouraged theory to start a dominion strategy blog where he gave away all his insight.  I wouldn't have made councilroom open to everyone.  I wouldn't encourage drheld to add all kinds of notification/fairness/transparency features to his point counter extension.

To me, it's about encouraging people to play high quality dominion'*`@# ('*`@# for however many levels of variants you want to tack on to this crazy thing I'll just call dominion for short).

So yeah, let's make that dominion AI awesome.  Just share the code and let everyone use it.  If it actually gets to a point where the AIs just dominate humans, then maybe let's reconsider the human intelligence-bounded dominion.  I don't think this will ever happen.

As of now, it just seems like immense amounts of practice is much better than any kind of player aid, so there isn't even really anything to worry about.
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Eevee

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Re: Re: What can be tracked for advantage?
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2012, 10:22:39 am »
+1

I am all for use everything in the kitchen sink approach to Dominion.  As long as your tools are publicly available and you disclose you are using them, it's kosher to me.

It's not about gaining an advantage.  If it was about gaining an advantage, I wouldn't have encouraged theory to start a dominion strategy blog where he gave away all his insight.  I wouldn't have made councilroom open to everyone.  I wouldn't encourage drheld to add all kinds of notification/fairness/transparency features to his point counter extension.

To me, it's about encouraging people to play high quality dominion'*`@# ('*`@# for however many levels of variants you want to tack on to this crazy thing I'll just call dominion for short).

So yeah, let's make that dominion AI awesome.  Just share the code and let everyone use it.  If it actually gets to a point where the AIs just dominate humans, then maybe let's reconsider the human intelligence-bounded dominion.  I don't think this will ever happen.

As of now, it just seems like immense amounts of practice is much better than any kind of player aid, so there isn't even really anything to worry about.

This is the way I enjoy dominion the most. Upvote a million times!

edit: this is the variant of dominion I enjoy the most.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 10:23:56 am by Eevee »
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Personman

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Re: What can be tracked for advantage?
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2012, 10:29:20 am »
0

EDIT: Oops, this was moderated into this thread (along with the above two posts) from another that was going offtopic. I really didn't intend to post here again :/

The only thing I would add to rrenaud's post, which I agree with entirely, is that once you get into doing complex computation every turn, the time limit becomes a factor.

In a tournament setting where simulation is legal (and yes, I think it was implicitly legal in the qualifiers for all the same reasons as the extension, but can we please argue about it in PM or not at all so that theory doesn't have to close the thread?) the time limit needs to be strictly enforced, and perhaps ought to be more strict than it currently is. It is, quite understandably, very lenient (and also very opaque), and I do not think that all players taking full advantage of it leads to interesting Dominion. Theory's final slow play rule was an improvement, but the ideal case would be a built in, visible, adjustable turn clock, perhaps one that increments a small amount every time you take an action.

In casual play, simulating every turn could easily wind up making you appear the same as isotropic trolls who slow play just to piss you off/hope you'll leave. If your simulation is light enough or your computer fast enough to not take a noticeable amount of time, be my guest.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 10:36:39 am by Personman »
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blueblimp

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Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2012, 10:41:49 am »
+1

I have to disagree; other than the technicality of the missing face-up discard pile, everything else is exactly the same in terms of gameplay.

There are several other differences, actually:
  • "Waiting for reactions" tells you they have a reaction card.
  • "Plays two silvers" tells you they don't have any more standard currency. You can't hide the fact that you really overpaid for that province except by playing cards one by one, which already looks suspicious.
  • If they have more than one green, Bureaucrat has to wait for them to decide which one to put back (really useful for bureaucrat abuse because you know they have another).
  • Discarding, if there's a pause they'll know that you have tunnel(s) to reveal, even if you didn't want to reveal any.
  • Lookout draws three coppers, and it goes really quick -- so others notice.
  • Similarly, 5-copper hands take no time from the militia.
  • Someone else has a province to block your tournament, and you get to find out who it is. Maybe that changes what prize you get.
Can anyone think of any more? Yeah they won't affect a lot of games, but sometimes there is a way you can take advantage of the extra information online.
Good list. This had a thread before in the Isotropic Discussion. Additional differences from that thread:
  • You can't see which order you drew cards.
  • On Isotropic, you see supply pile sizes all the time, whereas IRL you only know when you bother to count them.
  • Almost every decision with a single choice is made instantly. (You mentioned a couple instances of this already.)
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    samath

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    Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
    « Reply #49 on: July 06, 2012, 02:59:52 pm »
    +2

    You can't see which order you drew cards.

    Okay, I know this is a little off-topic, but I've realized the way around this one: The info screen displays the cards in the order you drew them. I frequently use this to figure out which cards missed the reshuffle. (Of course, you have to remember how many you had left in your deck at the end of last turn.) And well, some of the posts on that thread are like "I forget that I played a duration on isotropic," where you could just look at the log of your last turn almost as easily as looking at the board in front of you. And usually while you wouldn't get the exact number of cards in each stack right, you have a feel for how close the game is to ending from the sizes of the stacks, while you have to train yourself on isotropic to have that same kind of feel. But yeah, there are more good examples of instant plays that reveal information, for instance: A big KC chain suddenly dies when they don't have any more action cards to play. They're not just choosing not to KC that lookout, or it would take a while to come down that chain.
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