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[theory]

Currently, there are two methods of tracking information on Isotropic:

* The official point counter provides all players with a running count of their score.

* The unofficial card counter extension (for Chrome) provides the installer with a running count of everyone's deck contents.  An opponent can manually query the extension to receive the same running count that the installer has.  When installing the extension, the installer is provided the option of allowing his opponents to disable the extension at the start of a game.

How tournament organizers choose to regulate these two counters is of course up to their discretion.  But in your view, how should they do it? 

[jsh357]

I don't want to get involved in the mega debate, but I might as well post my stance: I'm against physical/automatic point/composition trackers of any kind as they are against the rules of Dominion.  Making judgment calls is a big part of the game to me, and something that separates great players from good ones.  I'm aware that someone can make a spreadsheet during a game if he wants to, and I understand why most online tournaments require the tracker for that reason, but the unofficial tracker goes much too far in my opinion.  Even if it is only offering a slight advantage, I don't care for it, and I am no longer accepting matches with people who use it anyway. (If they want to play that way, fine; I'm not gonna stop them) If I wanted to play against someone who knew everything, I'd play an AI. 

[yudantaiteki]

Simple point counter: I don't care either way; I think it changes the strategy when you can see the score but I have fun playing with it that way too.

Point/card extension: Ban with extreme prejudice.

[timchen]

In general, what the tournament director likes; state clearly enough and just DQ those who won't listen.

On the other hand, I personally prefer the unofficial card counter allowed. I am not too interested in the memory department. In 2p games it just saves you time and energy as if the game is important you would track those things anyway. In 3p or 4p games it becomes quite a bit harder to track all things, but surprisingly, it usually matters even less. In my experience in a competitive match one pretty much just gets whatever points he can get. Now one can argue if it matters even less why not left it disabled, sure I don't mind. But I don't like people screaming at these point counters, saying it violates the rule in some fundamental way or something like point count is different from card count, or something similarly ridiculous. Seriously, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong to allow the use of point/card counter in a tournament. 

And then there is this fairness issue. I think using or banning the counter doesn't change much. If one wishes to cheat he can have the simulator at hand, have people to discuss with, or even find other players to play for him. Nothing much can be done, and if you play really great that shouldn't matter either. I'll say it seems to me that only losers are afraid of cheaters.

[shark_bait]

From a Tournament Organizer perspective - This doesn't matter, just so long as they are clear on what they are using and all the participants are fine with what the format is.

From a Tournament Player perspective - Knowledge of your deck is part of the game.  Ergo, I will not be participating in any tournaments that promote the use of an external memory aid.

[RisingJaguar]

When I play casually, I love playing point counter as it allows me to be multi-tasking.  I can check the score when I please and thus not need to focus nearly as hard.  It just makes it easier and allows people to make more optimal decisions.  I also do like this for tournament standards because it allows me to focus on strategy/deck building instead.  I find it hard for myself to count 10 unique cards in my deck at times, I don't want to waste time counting both player's VP. 

Now with this whole thing, I totally understand that others prefer it off.  I actually thought the current rules of "This is how it should be unless you can agree on it otherwise" was pretty clear. 

PCE, no thank you.  I feel there is a big difference between knowing the score to make optimal decisions and knowing both deck's composition and making optimal decisions.  HOWEVER, I would say this would be a great tool for any spectators.

[Captain_Frisk]

I think this might need a poll.

I'm in favor of anything:

- Playing on isotropic is a dominion variant
- Starting hands identical is a variant
- Veto mode is a variant
- Iso tracker is a variant
- Dr. Held's Point Tracker is a variant.
- Rotating starting position is also a variant from the official rules.

As long as it's agreed to in advance - I'm perfectly happy playing with any subset of the above.

Personally, I think that playing with all of the above is the best test of pure dominion skill (making the best purchasing / play decisions based on all available information), with a reasonable amount of randomness removed (mountebank / chapel I'm looking at you!) The point trackers reduce bad decisions based on inability / unwillingness to memorize (which result in higher level play).  If I was going to play dominion in a face to face tournament today - you can bet that I would be memorizing everyone's decks.  Whether you you consider the tracking of all available information (points, cards in deck, etc. ) to be part of dominion skill that should be rewarded in tournament play is a question for the tournament organizer. 

Of course - when you're playing with a full deck tracker - you aren't playing Dominion.  You're playing Advanced Dominion.   (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Chess for a chess analogue)

That said - for those who are opposed to the PCE because its against the rules as written in the rulebook - then so are identical starting hands and rotating of start player.  By this argument - we should have all future online qualifiers done via google hangout.

[theory]

I considered putting in a poll.  But it'd be difficult to arrive at a phrasing that would satisfy everyone, and it would also encourage opinions without reasoning.

[RisingJaguar]

That said - for those who are opposed to the PCE because its against the rules as written in the rulebook - then so are identical starting hands and rotating of start player.  By this argument - we should have all future online qualifiers done via google hangout.

I know you are talking to those that still oppose it.  However if you are talking to the opposers in the former thread, I am more in the camp that if everyone agrees to it (I personally wouldn't really care too much as long as its fair on both sides).  Thus if PCE was written in the tournament rules or my opponent was insistent on it, then sure.

However the other tools that you mention aim to balance the game out.  They also effect both players equally.  I mean veto mode... sure it might lean to one or the other (i'm not sure), but I think the majority are leaning towards random kingdoms too. 

From how I understand PCE, I thought they were the same too until I saw the screenshot.  (I previously thought you needed to type !status blah blah blah).  PCE seems to help one player more (it is constantly up AND it looks really convenient to read) than the other which is why I am hesistant and probably why others would take a stand against it.

[timchen]

From how I understand PCE, I thought they were the same too until I saw the screenshot.  (I previously thought you needed to type !status blah blah blah).  PCE seems to help one player more (it is constantly up AND it looks really convenient to read) than the other which is why I am hesistant and probably why others would take a stand against it.

How about requiring that the PCE to be installed? I mean, using chrome and setting up an extension is not going to kill your computer. And if you choose not to do so, you are willing to accept that the information will be more accessible to the PCE user.

[RisingJaguar]

From how I understand PCE, I thought they were the same too until I saw the screenshot.  (I previously thought you needed to type !status blah blah blah).  PCE seems to help one player more (it is constantly up AND it looks really convenient to read) than the other which is why I am hesistant and probably why others would take a stand against it.

How about requiring that the PCE to be installed? I mean, using chrome and setting up an extension is not going to kill your computer. And if you choose not to do so, you are willing to accept that the information will be more accessible to the PCE user.

While we are at that... Where do we find the extension?  I just saw this sort of popping up in my games and that was that. 

[timchen]

in the chrome web store. Just google "dominion point counter". Make sure you are using google chrome as your browser.

[greatexpectations]

How about requiring that the PCE to be installed? I mean, using chrome and setting up an extension is not going to kill your computer. And if you choose not to do so, you are willing to accept that the information will be more accessible to the PCE user.

- people playing at work or on public machines
- people playing on tablets
- people not willing to use chrome or download the extension

[DStu]

I also don't like forcing players into browsers/addons, but

- people playing on tablets

https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/browser/mobile/

Edit: English version.
PS: Android 4.0 required? Is that true? Googles browser didn't ran on android before 4.0?

[blueblimp]

By this argument - we should have all future online qualifiers done via google hangout.

This is not a bad idea. This would be the ideal way to hold an online qualifier to an IRL tournament, because you can enforce very strict rules about play aids (including pen & paper).

On the original question, I like playing with PCE. But a reasonable compromise is to prohibit it and allow official point counter only.

It'd be possible to make a "tournament mode" for the PCE that has some limited subset of functionality. For example, it could only display points, but they would be current points and not beginning-of-turn points. Or it could track deck contents, but only show them by "!details". Basically trimming out whatever you don't like. This would be really, really easy to implement if it's decided exactly what the mode should do.

For a tournament with any sort of prize, I'd also suggest explicitly allowing any sort of manual play aid: pen & paper, spreadsheet, whatever. One reason is enforceability, because when there's a prize present, people will be tempted to use these things. The other is that these methods require effort and are much more limited than the PCE. (I don't believe the enforceability argument applies to the PCE, because a PCE-ban is enforceable by looking at the message it prints when it starts.)

[WanderingWinder]

I don't think forcing people to use it makes much sense. If you make it clear that it is going to be allowed, I don't see why people can't choose to play without it, knowing they'll be at a disadvantage, without needing to make that against the rules.

I don't think that "that's the way things are in the rulebook" is a very convincing argument here, where we're discussing what the rules should be. By definition, we're discussing what SHOULD be in the rulebook, and in such discussions, what happens to be there at the moment has very little pull.

In general, it's not like we're going to come to some kind of consensus here. What is important is that people understand the rules they agree to when they enter a tournament, which will help them make informed decisions about which tournaments to enter. And so long as you have to play by the rules you agree to when entering, there shouldn't be any problems.

The only real point I can see for threads like these are: 1) for a particular tournament, you might ask people; however, you're almost certainly going to get disagreement, and whoever is running the thing is just going to have to make a call going in, either way. Which leads us to the more important reason: 2) for all those people who thin that online dominion ought to have some different ruleset than just the dominion rules, they need to codify this different ruleset. I mean, you can do this tournament by tournament, but it's a lot easier (and probably much better) to just have a list of rules that you can say: here, THESE apply. Because for any kind of competition like this, you need a codified set of rules.



Oh, also, in the OP, you neglect to include the very important option of relying on your memory.

[blueblimp]

I also don't like forcing players into browsers/addons, but

- people playing on tablets

https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/browser/mobile/

Edit: English version.
PS: Android 4.0 required? Is that true? Googles browser didn't ran on android before 4.0?

Unfortunately, the mobile version doesn't support extensions:

Chrome apps and extensions are currently not supported on Chrome for Android. We have no plans to announce at this time.

[DStu]

Oh, also, in the OP, you neglect to include the very important option of relying on your memory.

But I hope it's not up to the discretion of the organizer how to handle this...

Edit:

Unfortunately, the mobile version doesn't support extensions:

Next tournament require: Play on tablet. Who cares for reordering of cards...

[WanderingWinder]

Oh, also, in the OP, you neglect to include the very important option of relying on your memory.

But I hope it's not up to the discretion of the organizer how to handle this...

Well, I mean, only this and nothing else is an option. But more, it is another beyond the recognized "two methods of tracking information on Isotropic"

[blueblimp]

Also, I feel one way of deciding should be what your tournament is intended to accomplish. Most tournaments here are for fun only (no prize), and in that case I feel the rules should be fairly permissive, to allow players to play how they enjoy most, since after all it doesn't really matter. On the other hand, if you're trying to measure IRL Dominion skill as accurately as possible, it's better to ban everything.

[greatexpectations]

The only real point I can see for threads like these are...

while it would be nice to get to some consensus, i think theory was more interested in seeing a more focused discussion from the full community.  i think his post to close out the previous thread hints at this. the previous thread was all over the place, and i think people were talking past each other for much of it. additionally, the very tense nature of the thread and rapid posting would discourage many from voicing any opinion at all.

[popsofctown]

How about requiring that the PCE to be installed? I mean, using chrome and setting up an extension is not going to kill your computer. And if you choose not to do so, you are willing to accept that the information will be more accessible to the PCE user.

- people playing at work or on public machines
- people playing on tablets
- people not willing to use chrome or download the extension

I think it's not crazy to say "hey, this is a tournament, this is an important game, why don't you play on your home machine?"  Playing at work is pretty inappropriate for tournament play, tablets don't even play Cartographer correctly from what I hear so that's already disadvantaging yourself, and for people "unwilling to use Chrome", I'm sure if there was consensus from the community that drheld style point tracking is the way to go for the tournament environment, someone would write a convenient Mozilla add-on and IE widget.  I don't think browsers are going to be a breaking point.

Now for playing a tablet game for an automatch game in iso, sure, just hit !disable so we can play a casual game on even footing.  If the tournament isn't worth it to you to get off the couch and go over to your desktop I'm confused.



I am totally and utterly befuddled by people who think drheld's point tracker is "not dominion" and that iso point tracking "is dominion".  The first thing I do when I know the iso point tracker is on is redirect brain cells to remembering the current Fool Gold split instead.  Saying you'd remember it anyway is silly.  I could argue that the card contents component of drheld's addon is something I'd just remember anyway - if you use the techniques described in "Moonwalking with Einstein" and label the cards in the kingdom by number, you could remember the contents of your deck all the time.  It'd just be a pain.  (the guy remembers like 3 decks of standard playing cards or something).

I favor drheld's point tracker and getting it to be reasonably accessible as a standard, but if we're going to say that memory is an important part of Dominion, then ALL point tracking should be off.  Allowing a memory aid that suits your lazy-boy-fairgrounds but not my Embargo-what-he-doesn't-have-enough-of is preferential and unfair.

[greatexpectations]

I think it's not crazy to say "hey, this is a tournament, this is an important game, why don't you play on your home machine?"  Playing at work is pretty inappropriate for tournament play, tablets don't even play Cartographer correctly from what I hear so that's already disadvantaging yourself, and for people "unwilling to use Chrome", I'm sure if there was consensus from the community that drheld style point tracking is the way to go for the tournament environment, someone would write a convenient Mozilla add-on and IE widget.  I don't think browsers are going to be a breaking point.

- not everyone has the privilege of having both a tablet and a desktop/laptop.
- people playing on a family or friend's device might not have the option to download software. it could be considered rude to ask a friend to add software to their device, and my parents did not allow me to download alternate browsers.
- you did not address people playing on public shared machines where you simply can't add browser/extensions.

i'll play in a tournament either way, the extension doesn't bother me that much. but i do not think you will win many to a pro-card/point/etc. counting viewpoint by advocating that all players should be required to use an extension.  you would likely do better to advocate the reasons for the information itself, or perhaps for soliciting dougz or funsockets to implement a similar option so that the information is equally available without outside influence.

[Thisisnotasmile]

- Playing on isotropic is a dominion variant
- Starting hands identical is a variant
- Veto mode is a variant
- Iso tracker is a variant
- Dr. Held's Point Tracker is a variant.
- Rotating starting position is also a variant from the official rules.

Playing on Isotropic is an unavoidable variant if we all want to play together. Veto mode is not a variant.

Other than those two points, all I have to say on this subject is that I just don't enter tournaments that force me to play with variants I don't want to play. It's pretty simple.

I also think it would be great if DXV could just post somewhere something like "The official rules for playing Dominion online are the same as the official rules for playing Dominion IRL, with the following adjustments..." and then tournaments can just link to that post and say "play by these rules, with the following adjustments...". Then anything not explicitly covered in either list of adjustments can be called a variant and banned as per DXV's view that variants are cheating unless all players agree. I don't think anyone would argue that DXV doesn't get to make the rules for online Dominion.

[popsofctown]

I think it's not crazy to say "hey, this is a tournament, this is an important game, why don't you play on your home machine?"  Playing at work is pretty inappropriate for tournament play, tablets don't even play Cartographer correctly from what I hear so that's already disadvantaging yourself, and for people "unwilling to use Chrome", I'm sure if there was consensus from the community that drheld style point tracking is the way to go for the tournament environment, someone would write a convenient Mozilla add-on and IE widget.  I don't think browsers are going to be a breaking point.

- not everyone has the privilege of having both a tablet and a desktop/laptop.
- people playing on a family or friend's device might not have the option to download software. it could be considered rude to ask a friend to add software to their device, and my parents did not allow me to download alternate browsers.
- you did not address people playing on public shared machines where you simply can't add browser/extensions.

i'll play in a tournament either way, the extension doesn't bother me that much. but i do not think you will win many to a pro-card/point/etc. counting viewpoint by advocating that all players should be required to use an extension.  you would likely do better to advocate the reasons for the information itself, or perhaps for soliciting dougz or funsockets to implement a similar option so that the information is equally available without outside influence.

I seem to have a different perception of how the populace is playing isotropic than you do.  You may be right.  I still don't think tablets count because Cartographer doesn't work on tablets so those players are already playing with a hand behind their back, they already cannot truly compete.  But if lots of people share computers and stuff, yeah maybe.

You could always add an option to the extension to disable the user friendly stuff, cutting both players down to using only !details.  So if you're playing someone with chrome and you don't have chrome, you both use !details and nothing else.  If both have the addon, both can use the cuddly interface.  If neither have the add-on, well, they can take paper notes or just use the normal tracker or what have you.

I mean, I'm just blowing smoke really since I'm pretty sure autocount is unpopular enough it will never be a standard.  But I think practically speaking there is a solution to standardize it and make it work.  It's a forkable add-on, and it generates text input that has lots of possibilities too.