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[DStu]

I think we should test the simulator again. Here are two games of mine from the weekend. First one for warm-up:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110717-054641-44e5537a.html
I was a little bit surprised how well this Chapel/2xQuarry->GM-thing worked out, but when you think about it I could have expected it. The Bot would play something like that

Code: [Select]

<player name="SimCha3.1-DStu1">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Grand_Market"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Grand_Market"/>
   <buy name="Quarry">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Quarry"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Chapel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chapel"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>
Don't think that one can improve the general strategy, but maybe one can get a few percent by Vineyards in the endgame (I didn't manage to). Other question is: When the bot played against itself, the second player looses 40:60. Can one improve the winrate for the second player?

Second game:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110717-060819-5cfe60ec.html
Same situation, I would say we replace Forge by Chapel again, because
a) I got lucky with the early Forge, usually this would not have worked so well
b) The simulator is not really good in forging.
c) Chapel does exactly what one wants the Forge to do here.

The general situation is a little bit like the game before, just that we have Markets instead of GM, and additionally Labs, which gives you Chapel/Lab. Can you beat it? My Quarrybased approaches all don't really work out.

[Geronimoo]

For the first game, I made a bot that beats yours by a small margin (52-47):

Code: [Select]

<player name="SimCha3.1-Geronimoo 2">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Grand_Market"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Grand_Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Copper"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Quarry">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Quarry"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Chapel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chapel"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>

The reason this performs a little better is due to a glitch in the programming of the Chapel card. If you have this hand [Chapel, Copper, Copper, Copper, Quarry] the Chapel card will think you can buy a Grand Market and not trash anything. I added a little buy condition to make sure Chapel trashes all the Coppers in that case. I don't think there's much you can do to improve the second player's win rate because the strategy is so reliant on getting as many Grand Markets as possible.

[DStu]

Ok,, i get this one

Code: [Select]

<player name="SimCha3.2-DStu1">
   <buy name="Colony">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Platinum"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Platinum"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Market"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Laboratory"/>
   <buy name="Quarry">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Quarry"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Chapel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chapel"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
a 52:46 win against the original COL-BM-Chapel Lab, and a tie if you change the Chapel/Lab-bot engame rules to the ones of my bot.

Edit:
Against this bot

Code: [Select]

<player name="COL - BM - Chapel Lab.alt2">
   <buy name="Colony">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Platinum"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Platinum"/>
   <buy name="Laboratory">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Laboratory"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Chapel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chapel"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
it looses again 41:54 . Geronimoo, perhaps you want to change the standard COL-BM Chapel Lab Bot to something like this, because it also beats the original one by 55:38. It buys some Labs over Gold, as otherwise you only take Labs for exactly $5.

[Geronimoo]

For the second game, this bot crushes your bot and the improved Chapel/Lab bot (almost 9 to 1):

Code: [Select]

<player name="SimCha3.2-Geronimoo">
   <buy name="Colony">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Platinum"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Platinum">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Platinum"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Quarry">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Quarry"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Platinum"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Laboratory"/>
   <buy name="Market"/>
   <buy name="Platinum"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Chapel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chapel"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wishing_Well">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Wishing_Well"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>

The reason this one does so well is because it always goes for the super trimmed deck of 1 Platinum, X Markets, X Labs as fast as possible. It doesn't bother buying Silvers or Golds because they just get in the way. The Whishing Wells are basically free.

[Davio]

I don't have any experience with the simulator, but when I play a GM strategy, I sometimes try to get enough buys and $ to clear the Estates as the 3rd pile in one fell swoop. This would require 2 empty piles, 8 buys and 16$. 5 GMs gets you to 6 buys and 10$, so with the 2 Quarries you need 4 Markets to pull this off.

This is a sort of advanced scenario and I don't know how to put this in the simulator. It's also a conditional scenario, you obviously won't do this if your opponent is in the lead and you won't do this if you can only buy 4 Estates or something. You have to specifically look for a spot that may or may not occur during a game. It follows the general consensus of trying to end the game safely on piles when you have such a sweet engine and don't want to clog it.

[Geronimoo]

This one does even better (goes for the mega turn where it buys 2 Colonies):

Code: [Select]

<player name="SimCha3.2-Geronimoo">
   <buy name="Colony">
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="20.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Colony">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Colony"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Platinum"/>
   <buy name="Quarry">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Quarry"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Platinum"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Laboratory"/>
   <buy name="Market"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Chapel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chapel"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wishing_Well">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Wishing_Well"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
</player>


[Davio]

Don't you need at least $22 to buy 2 Colonies?

[Thisisnotasmile]

It won't buy its first Colony until it has over $20 to spend that turn. After that it will buy Colony whenever it can afford it. After buying the first Colony, if it doesn't have $11 left to spend (i.e. had less than $22 to spend in total this turn) it will spend its remaining buys on other things which will push up the overall buying power of the deck for future turns allowing it to double-Colony.

So yeah, that bot won't double-Colony every turn, but it won't start buying Colonies until it is likely it will be able to double-Colony quite regularly.

Edit: Looked (a little bit) further down the buy rules. If it hits $20 or $21, it will buy Colony/Platinum. That will force its buying power over $22 for future turns.

[DStu]

The reason this one does so well is because it always goes for the super trimmed deck of 1 Platinum, X Markets, X Labs as fast as possible. It doesn't bother buying Silvers or Golds because they just get in the way. The Whishing Wells are basically free.

Strange. I thought I started with something like that and it didn't work out.

[Geronimoo]

The reason this one does so well is because it always goes for the super trimmed deck of 1 Platinum, X Markets, X Labs as fast as possible. It doesn't bother buying Silvers or Golds because they just get in the way. The Whishing Wells are basically free.

Strange. I thought I started with something like that and it didn't work out.

It didn't work for me either at first until I moved the Quarries to the top of buying priority.

[DStu]

This one does even better (goes for the mega turn where it buys 2 Colonies):

But now you opened your flank completely to a fast colony and 3-pile-ending.

Code: [Select]

<player name="SimCha3.2-DStu3">
   <buy name="Colony"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Wishing_Well"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Wishing_Well"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Wishing_Well"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Platinum"/>
   <buy name="Quarry">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Quarry"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Platinum"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Laboratory"/>
   <buy name="Market"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Chapel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chapel"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wishing_Well"/>
</player>
72:17

PS: Seem's like you're right and my main mistake was the low priority for Quarry, esp. for the second. Weird that I haven't noticed before, because getting 2 Quarrys was of course exactly what I wanted. Probably internal c&p-error from the GM-setting, where it works as GM are unlikely to interfere with the Quarries until you really have two of them.

[DStu]

You can even improve this when only taking Labs for 3pileEnding and ignore otherwise. Seems like the WWs are enough for draw:

Code: [Select]

<player name="SimCha3.2-DStu4">
   <buy name="Colony"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Wishing_Well"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Wishing_Well"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Wishing_Well"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Platinum"/>
   <buy name="Quarry">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Quarry"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Platinum"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Laboratory">
      <condition>
         <left type="countVP"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="countMAXOpponentVP"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Market"/>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Chapel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chapel"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
      <condition>
         <left type="countAvailableMoney"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Wishing_Well"/>
</player>
60:35 against SimCha3.2-DStu3. But it is worse against Geronimoos last, wins also 60:35 against his. The DStu3-bot was better against this

[kn1tt3r]

As I've written in another thread, I've played around with the Stash/Chancellor and Single Stash implementation. It should:

- buy Stash strictly over Gold until you have 4 of them (the most important change)

- buy more Chancellors, but still open Chancellor/Silver => haven't really figured out the optimum here, and I don't really know how to tell the simulator to buy Chancellor over Silver to some degree but still open Silver/Chancellor.

- I failed to add some Warehouse support (to accelerate cycling) properly as another combo. Maybe it's too complicated to trigger reshuffles correctly.

- maybe you can even start buying Duchies earlier, but I haven't tried it yet.

[kn1tt3r]

Another question: When I fooled around trying to make a Bishop/Chapel strategy going in the simulator (open Bishop/Chapel and work towards a Silver-Silver-Gold-Bishop-Province deck, which should be possible in about 8 turns), which obviously failed, I observed some strange Chapel behavior:

Turn 3 - Hand: Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Chapel
Playing Chapel, trashing Estate and 2 Coppers
Playing Copper
Buying nothing

Is there some reason for only trashing 3 cards?

[Geronimoo]

Turn 3 - Hand: Estate, Copper, Copper, Copper, Chapel
Playing Chapel, trashing Estate and 2 Coppers
Playing Copper
Buying nothing

Is there some reason for only trashing 3 cards?

There's a failsafe built into the Chapel implementation:
it will not trash a card if this would cause the total money in the deck to go below 6

Since you probably open Bishop Chapel and it counts Bishop as +$1 you will have $8 in your deck so he'll only trash 2 Coppers. If you open Silver/Chapel, you have $9 in your deck and he'll happily trash 3 Coppers. This is of course not ideal, but it's better than optimal trashing, but sometimes ending up with a deck consisting of 1 Chapel and nothing else (which happened quite a lot in my first trials at a Chapel implementation).

[DStu]

- buy more Chancellors, but still open Chancellor/Silver => haven't really figured out the optimum here, and I don't really know how to tell the simulator to buy Chancellor over Silver to some degree but still open Silver/Chancellor.

To force open Silver/Chancellor you can add a "Buy Silver if CountInDeck(Silver) = 0"-condition to force the first buy for silver.

[Razzishi]

- buy more Chancellors, but still open Chancellor/Silver => haven't really figured out the optimum here, and I don't really know how to tell the simulator to buy Chancellor over Silver to some degree but still open Silver/Chancellor.

To force open Silver/Chancellor you can add a "Buy Silver if CountInDeck(Silver) = 0"-condition to force the first buy for silver.

More specifically, you should put a buy order of Silver before Chancellor which as one of its conditions requires that the number of Silvers in the deck is less than the number of Chancellors, or whatever sort of condition you can think of that would be appropriate for what you want.  Unfortunately there's not infinite variation in what you can prescribe, but you can use the algebraic functions to try a few different things.